Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 25 Nov 2018 15:04

Maybe the Russians are having a firesale of the iglas and using the resources to bring in the verba.. they are well known to grease the palms of whoever required

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 25 Nov 2018 15:36

is this a igla or strela can anyone make out?
it worked, whatever it was. mostly these are good ambush weapons in the hills.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 25 Nov 2018 16:29

Singha wrote:is this a igla or strela can anyone make out?
it worked, whatever it was. mostly these are good ambush weapons in the hills.



As per the comments on the video, it is an earlier generation igla

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Nov 2018 17:43

Another hope is that when we are manufacturing the later stages we will able to slap a nag derived IIR seeker and built future versions in house

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 25 Nov 2018 18:06

Aditya_V wrote:Another hope is that when we are manufacturing the later stages we will able to slap a nag derived IIR seeker and built future versions in house


That is the hardware part only. You will have to develop the algorithms/software part separately. That is the most critical and complex aspect. Hardware is already commoditised.

Compared to ATGMs, algorithms for SAMs including Manpads are much more complex.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby chola » 25 Nov 2018 18:22

Singha wrote:is this a igla or strela can anyone make out?
it worked, whatever it was. mostly these are good ambush weapons in the hills.




Great video. These things are so damn impressive.

This is a manpad hit on a fixed wing:


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 25 Nov 2018 21:10

darshhan wrote:
John wrote:Igla-S are quite frequently used by various Syrian rebels with mixed success.


Mixed success is more than enough to force a change in standard helicopter and transport aircraft tactics for most of the time. Forget actual firing of a manpad, even the knowledge that opfor in a particular sector has access to a manpad will force the chopper crews to change their tactics. I am not even talking here about stingers or iglas which are of recent vintage. A second gen Sa-7 is more than enough for this task.

It is not whether it is effective if it is second hand Russian goods more than often they are plagued with quality and support issues just look at other IA procurement Tunguska.

One paper they seemed good and we're supplied from Russian inventory but were plagued with numerous issues (including unacceptable amount of Rust). Can't even reject them and send them back to Russia and refuse payment till they fix it like we have done with new products.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 26 Nov 2018 10:56

Good points John.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 26 Nov 2018 11:06

Singha wrote:is this a igla or strela can anyone make out?
it worked, whatever it was. mostly these are good ambush weapons in the hills.



This is the old igla ( igla-1 ) with single channer IR sensor and it was a direct hit at the tail , The terrorist seemed to have taken time to get a good target acquisation before firing.

The issue with IR manpad is to know you are under attack , this is only possible using maws else its all about pilot hunch and indescriminate use of flares.

The cobra could have easily evaded the igla had the pilot knew it was under attack and the vector of the missile approaching it. It had good height to take evasive manouver

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Nov 2018 12:04

darshhan wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Another hope is that when we are manufacturing the later stages we will able to slap a nag derived IIR seeker and built future versions in house


That is the hardware part only. You will have to develop the algorithms/software part separately. That is the most critical and complex aspect. Hardware is already commoditised.

Compared to ATGMs, algorithms for SAMs including Manpads are much more complex.


I think we now a ton of data from using Manpads, developing Akash, Trishul, QR Sam, Astra, UAV like Laksya which help us develop the relevant algorithims.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 26 Nov 2018 23:22

Don't forget Nag. Over 2 decades of experience of optimizing an IIR seeker and its algorithms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby V_Raman » 27 Nov 2018 02:32

If we can get the Igla tech and manufacturing knowhow - good enough. With our expertise, we can improve it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2018 09:25

the Igla-S launch system and propellent is probably reusable. we can add our own optronic and seeker to make a Igla-S-Mk2 out of it ..... else we will be on lookout for Verba in 10 years.

better close that hole, as its a mass deployment weapon with all infantry units.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby hnair » 27 Nov 2018 11:50

Wonder if these Igla-S thingies will work against small UAVs, if it gets fitted with IIR? Cheen's smaller UAVs are going to be the ones that Indian military will have to deal a lot up in the hills and bringing down a few using a cheap mijjile bought from a yard-sale might help keep cheen's stocks vibrant

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2018 11:53

uav piston or turboprop engines will generate some exhaust signature for sure. even a good IR seeker may be able to track them in the cold mountains.

the really small platoon level ones will run on silent battery power though and be much cheaper than any manpad. for these, we need to step down 1 level and build some sort of "guided bazooka" with 3km range, 5000 feet climb and a really cheap radar/ir seeker (whatever costs less) ? need not pack a warhead just a jar of paintballs it should splatter on target and gum up its fans and sensors to bring it down.

even a portable gun with a small BFSR type radar may work - like the shoulder mounted thing on the Predator? that was one useful shtick, though not as scary as his razor sharp throwing javelin.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Nov 2018 11:59

For those AMR, Bofors 70 or ZSU type radar or optically guided shells should be enough

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 27 Nov 2018 12:15

Here we couldn't fix t-90 two decades after buying it, we are still fixing su-30 and now let's add igla to the list. Jai ho!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 27 Nov 2018 12:17

Aditya_V wrote:For those AMR, Bofors 70 or ZSU type radar or optically guided shells should be enough

See the target video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9G8mF5dL_jQ

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Nov 2018 12:31

Hmmm, So Skycapture is for India as per the video, hope we can deploy it along the LOC. Thanks

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2018 12:31

hnair ji has mentioned once but systems like the lockheed 5lb HTK missile solve this problem and have high packing density in simple boxes.

Image

most of the brains are in the external radar and whatever tiny sensor is on board. since they can be fired in NLOS mode, does give better traction than proximity rounds from AA guns. perhaps a mix of both is best.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 27 Nov 2018 12:43

hnair wrote:Wonder if these Igla-S thingies will work against small UAVs, if it gets fitted with IIR? Cheen's smaller UAVs are going to be the ones that Indian military will have to deal a lot up in the hills and bringing down a few using a cheap mijjile bought from a yard-sale might help keep cheen's stocks vibrant


Hnair, before we start discussing whether igla s is good enough to engage the small uavs, we need to ask the following question first. Can we even detect these small UAVs? Can anyone else do it? I have my doubts.

Stealth technology makes aircraft small wrt rcs. These small uavs are small to begin with. By default they will have a small rcs.

Cost of production per unit will also be relatively much less especially for chinese. Using a manpad which costs more than Rs 1 cr to bring down a cheap UAV is a suboptimal solution especially when the enemy is mass producing them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 27 Nov 2018 12:55

Karan M wrote:Here we couldn't fix t-90 two decades after buying it, we are still fixing su-30 and now let's add igla to the list. Jai ho!


KaranM, This is the truth. And the only alternative for us is to go for the home grown solution. Which should take about 3 years to get into trial and testing phase if started now. Although I will be surprised if DRDO is not working on it already.

Other European and American vendors are not simply not worth it. Mistral and RBS 70 both offers are in vicinity of 3 billion usd which is approximately Rs 20,000 cr. Even Igla s would cost you more than Rs 10,000 cr. This is what you call as extortion. Such arms deal will cause you more damage than any other enemy would.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 27 Nov 2018 13:21

It seems that most of the foreign vendors see GOI and Indian Military as a bank with infinite cash reserves, to whom they can quote any fancy amount and which will be accepted.

The only problem with this approach is why bother with arms procurement, if it leads to us getting bankrupt. A bankrupt and financially weak nation will always be insecure regardless of its military strength.

It is the duty of GOI and MOD negotiators to impress upon these foreign vendors that these eye gouging prices are not going to be entertained at all. Wonder what they have been doing till now?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Nov 2018 15:10

Most foreign powers would like to keep us weak, desperate and noncompetitive, thats how they operate in the world from Africa, South America etc. It is for us to get over the commissions and foreign fetish

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Nov 2018 16:10

Karan M wrote:Here we couldn't fix t-90 two decades after buying it, we are still fixing su-30 and now let's add igla to the list. Jai ho!

Saar Karan,
This it will be different no?
We will fix so well that the target will crash itself rather than be engaged by I dian manpads!!!
I am depressed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Will » 27 Nov 2018 16:19

Heavens forbid this deal goes through. When stupid decisions like this are made you cant very well blame anyone from shouting scam. Though in this case rather than scam, it will be just sheer incompetence about how defence procurement is run. This whole tendering business should be junked. Agree some things still need to be imported, before we develop our own and become self sufficient but why not pick a credible system and go the govt-govt route. Even the make in India aspects of such deals can be negotiated in a much more effective and efficient way me thinks. But as I keep repeating every one has their finger in the pie.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2018 16:30

days of shoulder fired manpads are over.
future is boxes of these 5lb HTK missiles left on hilltops and valleys and triggered by a distributed radar and optronic network for grid based defence.
even in red flag nellis (see the imax film on youtube) they use such boxes loaded with unarmed rockets to simulate SAMs fired at ingressing F15

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 27 Nov 2018 16:33

Singha, MANPADS are also for troops advancing into enemy territory, detachments, light infantry etc. Its not merely static defence.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 27 Nov 2018 16:39

darshhan wrote:
hnair wrote:Wonder if these Igla-S thingies will work against small UAVs, if it gets fitted with IIR? Cheen's smaller UAVs are going to be the ones that Indian military will have to deal a lot up in the hills and bringing down a few using a cheap mijjile bought from a yard-sale might help keep cheen's stocks vibrant


Hnair, before we start discussing whether igla s is good enough to engage the small uavs, we need to ask the following question first. Can we even detect these small UAVs? Can anyone else do it? I have my doubts.

Stealth technology makes aircraft small wrt rcs. These small uavs are small to begin with. By default they will have a small rcs.

Cost of production per unit will also be relatively much less especially for chinese. Using a manpad which costs more than Rs 1 cr to bring down a cheap UAV is a suboptimal solution especially when the enemy is mass producing them.


Most Indian radars are now calibrated against a 0.1 sq mtr target. That will be good against most drones except the hand held ones. Those can only be addressed by innovative methods (other drones, small arms, EMI/EMC disruption etc) + Mk1 eyeball + automated optics.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 27 Nov 2018 16:39

ks_sachin wrote:
Karan M wrote:Here we couldn't fix t-90 two decades after buying it, we are still fixing su-30 and now let's add igla to the list. Jai ho!

Saar Karan,
This it will be different no?
We will fix so well that the target will crash itself rather than be engaged by I dian manpads!!!
I am depressed.


I can only hope we are getting a one-sided story from the media and the Army has done due diligence on the purchase! Only hope left!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2018 16:52

Karan M wrote:Singha, MANPADS are also for troops advancing into enemy territory, detachments, light infantry etc. Its not merely static defence.


people are developing exeskeletons which can lift heavy loads, i think even DRDO is doing it. perhaps a 8 backpack module of these HTK tubes totally some 25kg can be carted around like the squad automatic weapons, ATGMs+reloads or 81mm mortar is carried. kind of like a modern flamethrower backpack.

some could launch small 'falcon' drones with folding flap wings that will hunt the MAVs and pigeon sized spy drones.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Nov 2018 17:20

Singha Saar,
There was a time I could hold 25 rockets and fire 2 at a time.
No exo needed.
Wonderful mini mizziles from Sivakasi!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 27 Nov 2018 17:31

Singha wrote:
Karan M wrote:Singha, MANPADS are also for troops advancing into enemy territory, detachments, light infantry etc. Its not merely static defence.


people are developing exeskeletons which can lift heavy loads, i think even DRDO is doing it. perhaps a 8 backpack module of these HTK tubes totally some 25kg can be carted around like the squad automatic weapons, ATGMs+reloads or 81mm mortar is carried. kind of like a modern flamethrower backpack.

some could launch small 'falcon' drones with folding flap wings that will hunt the MAVs and pigeon sized spy drones.


True, but its at the very minimum, a decade away from service in India. I'd love to be proven wrong, but right now we should be happy with a budget which gives everyone enough NVGs/TI, BJP, and comms. Exos are too cost exorbitant for mass deployment today, especially given our RFI/RFP bureaucratese.

But what you are saying is completely the "future" and will happen .. its a given ..."Edge of Tomorrow" to Heinlein's Starship Troopers to the Space Marines Terminator Armor.

Till then I think we might begin with robotic mules that accompany sections/patrols with extra ammo, equipment and a few ATGMs/MANPADS..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 27 Nov 2018 17:33

darshhan wrote:
hnair wrote:Wonder if these Igla-S thingies will work against small UAVs, if it gets fitted with IIR? Cheen's smaller UAVs are going to be the ones that Indian military will have to deal a lot up in the hills and bringing down a few using a cheap mijjile bought from a yard-sale might help keep cheen's stocks vibrant


Hnair, before we start discussing whether igla s is good enough to engage the small uavs, we need to ask the following question first. Can we even detect these small UAVs? Can anyone else do it? I have my doubts.

Stealth technology makes aircraft small wrt rcs. These small uavs are small to begin with. By default they will have a small rcs.

Cost of production per unit will also be relatively much less especially for chinese. Using a manpad which costs more than Rs 1 cr to bring down a cheap UAV is a suboptimal solution especially when the enemy is mass producing them.


If the idea is to provide credible point defense capability against Group 1 through Group 3 UAV's because they can be used by the enemy for things like ISR, calling in artillery strikes and even as suicide drones then this can be done with capable sensors and shooters and using both kinetic and soft kill approaches. For example, the US Army realized that the problem with the Stinger against Class I UASs was that was not very effective because it lacked a proximity fuze and near misses required multiple shots. The solution was to add a proximity fuze and upgrade the missile and in testing it was able to defeat all of these class of UAS targets while still retaining its ability against the more capable manned rotary winged aircraft which was its primary design target. I could be wrong but I believe it defeated 100% of the small class UAS targets in qualifications. Going forward, I believe they will retain this requirement for the Stinger replacement. On the sensor side, precision tracking is required (US Army is using Ku band radars for this given the advantages against the very small targets) and this means capable high frequency radars and good optical sensors on the move.

Even with these improved portable MANPAD systems however, there would be some targets where you simply won't have the economics to justify a $30-$50K missile shot so at least on the fixed defenses you are better off with soft kill systems both in terms of Electronic Attack but ultimately things like directed energy in the from of high energy lasers and high power microwaves in the future.

On the kinetic side, there is really no good solution at the moment when it comes to very very small swarming systems given their sheer number. That problem though is something to watch out for the future as swarming capability advances but I guess that threat is more relevant to fixed sites than to a soldier carrying a MANPAD. That said work around Radio-Frequency equipped 30 mm proximity sensing ammo and integrating these guns with ground based tactical radars and mission control systems is a good start as you won't be able to defeat dozens of system with missiles.

Given the IAF is interested in the A2A capability of the AH-64E, I hope they also take a look at this as well:

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... tSheet.pdf

Here's the same ammo being demo'd on a ground based C-UAS system:

https://www.army.mil/article/213383/can ... ammunition

Next step will likely be guided and steerable rounds, something like scaling up the EXACTO. Guns seem to be the only economical kinetic way to defeat these systems.

Singha wrote:
Karan M wrote:Singha, MANPADS are also for troops advancing into enemy territory, detachments, light infantry etc. Its not merely static defence.


people are developing exeskeletons which can lift heavy loads, i think even DRDO is doing it. perhaps a 8 backpack module of these HTK tubes totally some 25kg can be carted around like the squad automatic weapons, ATGMs+reloads or 81mm mortar is carried. kind of like a modern flamethrower backpack.

some could launch small 'falcon' drones with folding flap wings that will hunt the MAVs and pigeon sized spy drones.


Those HTK tubes you are referring to are primarily designed around the Counter Rocket, Artillery and Mortar mission set with little residual capability against manuvering threat such as a UAS. Currently the system you pointed to is powered by a Semi Active RF seeker which requires an illuminator on the ground with a production variant switching to an active RF system. Adding the ability to go after a different target set will add weight, and size and likely cost as well. This is a different mission although I am sure that next generation MANPAD system will likely focus on precision and would be able to lower the overall system weight but I don't think they will completely remove the warhead because high PSSK with HTK also means much higher cost and this requirement (MANPAD) is highly price sensitive.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2018 18:25

russians are using panystr cannons and pantsyr/tor SAM in hymenim + unknown EW command link disrupt/takeover gear to defeat drone swarm attacks. some damage has been conceded but mostly these rough n tuff DIY swarms been thrashed and routed.

wrt to the mule thing, boston dynamics has demoed a mule type thing that can navigate...probably DOD is working with it to refine what can be done, would be useful in Afpak type places with long foot patrols...even just to carry food , batteries, medical gear, a few LAW rockets.

this thing can carry 181kg across rough ground ... not a great payload to weight ratio, but once they use composites and alloys may improve.
in future the "Breacher model" of this armed with rhino horn could break down doors and mud/cement walls for search ops. and the "Orc model" armed with a 200kg HE could storm enemy strongpoints like orc did in Helms Deep. one would need a line of pikemen and javelin throwers and moats to fend off a truculent herd of this thing :D

https://www.bostondynamics.com/ls3

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 27 Nov 2018 18:44

Singha wrote:russians are using panystr cannons and pantsyr/tor SAM in hymenim + unknown EW command link disrupt/takeover gear to defeat drone swarm attacks. some damage has been conceded but mostly these rough n tuff DIY swarms been thrashed and routed.


The media has been very liberal with its use of the word "swarm" or "swarming", basically calling a collection of drones ranging form a few to a dozen or more as a swarm. This is not swarming which is a more sophisticated capability whereby a large group of vehicles (UAS in this case) demonstrates collective and synchronous behavior, decision making, and mission execution. Sending a few dozen DIY drones as you rightly put it to attack a base is a different problem, largely how you shoot down or bring down loads of small and cheap UAS. Against a highly capable actual "swarm" you have to account for the behavior of the swarm, how it responds to your actions and what the ultimate objective/mission is for the swarm (it may just be to get you to use your weapons or sensors). We are still some years away from capable swarming tactics showing up on the battlefield.

This is your Gen1 early swarming demonstration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFKUKHfuM0

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 27 Nov 2018 18:50


russians are using panystr cannons and pantsyr/tor SAM in hymenim + unknown EW command link disrupt/takeover gear to defeat drone swarm attacks. some damage has been conceded but mostly these rough n tuff DIY swarms been thrashed and routed.


Source? Only thing I have read by Russian Def expert is Pantsir actually struggled to down the targets and was replaced by Tor. The post was taken down.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ParGha » 27 Nov 2018 20:20

Human+ Exoskeleton will probably first appear with the naval divers, whose environment reduces some of the locomotion challenges.

In Indian context, if you face another Kargil and the GOI orders you to fight without crossing the borders at locations of your advantage, a heavily armored mountain assault exoskeleton can reduce your casualties in one off battles. One of the big reasons Indians didn’t use heavy plate armor in medieval times was that it is just too hot in India for that kind of warfare. But if you are fighting in cold areas or have internal cooling mechanisms, heavy infantry suddenly becomes feasible.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 27 Nov 2018 21:03

How To Fire A Stinger Missile, Watch from 1:40

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2018 21:13

well intelligent swarm or not, a few well placed 76mm airburst rounds or SAM warheads will blow them out of the sky. all the better if they shoal together like fishes. so attacking well defended targets may not be so hot, perhaps confusing radar may be, but MALD and manned SEAD platforms have the power and sensors 1000x better than 6 inch drones!

if the target is weak might as well drop a bomb or missile on it, than try elaborate swarm tactics


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