LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Sep 2017 18:50

I think JayS in this thread before rightly pointed out this being a case of aerodynamic interference as both the plane and missile work fine when not together (Python V is in Israeli service for more than 10 years now). I personally think our guys need to stop running these science projects by trying to integrate Tejas with every missile in the world , make up one's mind on the missile and then standardize upon it for next 10 years as these rounds have a finite shelf life ; of course on the side we should have our Astra and then an active IIR seeker cousin built on fast track.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2017 23:27

negi,

I think IAF wants to modernize the CCM inventory.
R 73 is quite old and probably unreliable.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 25 Sep 2017 23:28

But R73 is one hell of a missile. Why not buy a fresh batch?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Sep 2017 23:44

negi wrote:I personally think our guys need to stop running these science projects by trying to integrate Tejas with every missile in the world , make up one's mind on the missile and then standardize upon it for next 10 years as these rounds have a finite shelf life ; of course on the side we should have our Astra and then an active IIR seeker cousin built on fast track.

I think such projects are valuable and much needed exercise that we must obtain those valuable data. What may not happen is user trial time failures. It shouldn't have to be not tested earlier on the user platform under various lifecycle stages of product dev. If done earlier why fail now? Fail fast is a great idea for early testing.

Again, if we can concurrently run few projects like twin engines Tejas, stealth skin /shape changes, Uttam radars... we are proactively building for the future platforms

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 26 Sep 2017 01:40

Hal does not really seem to be in tearing hurry to manufacture more LCA. 2 in last 6 months I think, is the score.

And LUH?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 26 Sep 2017 01:50

Some of you posters have the patience of a fruit fly! the flies are swatted away, yet want to get back on the fruit without any concern of danger looming!

It takes time to ramp up. HAL will deliver all it was tasked to deliver.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2017 03:02

Nice summary of LCA so far:

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next- ... ile-part-1

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Sep 2017 04:29

vina wrote:
ramana wrote:One thing I don't get is LCA so marginally designed that slightest variant throws it off?
It is a missile issue, not a plane issue . My guess is that some of the primary vibration modes of the Python V are setting off a flutter at certain flight profiles. My guess is basically missile structural response mode issues.

JMT etc and the usual disclaimers.

Very close. The ball has been in Rafael's court for a long time. They have been twiddling their thumbs thinking that ADA and India will keep coming back to them. Hopefully, they will start to move now.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 27 Sep 2017 06:11

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/911050751757053952

In this video, IAF pilots from the operational 45 sqdrn are all praise for the Tejas. Hear it from the horse's mouth

https://m.facebook.com/plugins/video.ph ... 5747621%2F&

Fantastic video, in fact a good tutorial on Tejas. When is the squadron moving to Sulur? It must be such as welcome change for Pilots given to flying Migs and even Mirages / Jaguars.

But the person who did this video kept going to the rear (no double meaning intended)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2017 07:20

ramana wrote:One thing I don't get is LCA so marginally designed that slightest variant throws it off?

An odd comment from you there. Without knowing the sorts of issues other aircraft go through while hearing too much detail about the LCA this comment is inappropriate. In 2012 I had compiled the list linked below of the problems faced by several phamous American fighters during the course of their development
viewtopic.php?p=1282337#p1282337

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2017 07:24

Gyan wrote:Making mountain out of mole hill of minor vibrations at particular speed may have more to do with dalal lobby of R73 vs ASRAAM vs Python 5 competing with each other rather than LCA. It would be more than Billion dollar order

Also revealing ignorance on your part of other similar tests conducted on other aircraft in a comment that reminds me of "experienced malaria patient" asserting that his illness was the worst that anyone can suffer without knowing anything about a thousand other deadly afflictions.

Will try and find one article (I think I have it archived somewhere) about just how these things are tested and declared safe of unsafe

khan · Post by **khan** » 27 Sep 2017 08:48

negi wrote:I think JayS in this thread before rightly pointed out this being a case of aerodynamic interference as both the plane and missile work fine when not together (Python V is in Israeli service for more than 10 years now). I personally think our guys need to stop running these science projects by trying to integrate Tejas with every missile in the world , make up one's mind on the missile and then standardize upon it for next 10 years as these rounds have a finite shelf life ; of course on the side we should have our Astra and then an active IIR seeker cousin built on fast track.

I think one of the advantages of having multiple missiles in inventory (and ready to fire from any capable platform), is at war time, the enemy won't know what's coming up it's tail-pipe.

Different missiles probably have different characteristics and have different evasion tactics.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 27 Sep 2017 08:51

Few things that stand out for LCA from the 45SQ video

1. The finish/built quality is superb
2.Handling quality is superb (maybe best in IAF) - Even person with average motor skill can fly it
3.It is one plateform where all kinds of weapon can be integrated. Where SU30MKI may not be able to fire Derby (and if R77 is not that great sorry), or Mirage/JAGS any Russian stuff (except short range IR missiles), Tejas can do all that. This gives us very high flexibility
Waiting to hear (if ever)
Radar performance, stealth, turning performance etc etc

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2017 09:18

Ignorance is bliss. The R-60 was successfully fired from Jaguar overwing, but had to be rejected, Read why that happened:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3JNY ... FpRM3hvVkU

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Sep 2017 10:11

This Article has no real connection to issue at hand. CAG Report shows that Israelis are delaying full integration of WVR & BVR missiles with LCA.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 27 Sep 2017 10:45

Gyan wrote:This Article has no real connection to issue at hand. CAG Report shows that Israelis are delaying full integration of WVR & BVR missiles with LCA.

But were you not commenting on the vibration issue and making light of it?
Hakeem calls you out And you talk about CAG?
Reminds me of Donald Trump!!!

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Sep 2017 10:52

Yes. I still say that we don't know the real reason of the problem. And if Shiv is using Vayu to talk about Jagura then what's wrong in citing CAG? Shiv is not giving any definitive insider info, he is speculating, so am I. Thanks for making me President of USA, Donald Trump achieves more in a day then you will do in your lifetime

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 27 Sep 2017 11:32

Gyan wrote:Yes. I still say that we don't know the real reason of the problem. And if Shiv is using Vayu to talk about Jagura then what's wrong in citing CAG? Shiv is not giving any definitive insider info, he is speculating, so am I. Thanks for making me President of USA, Donald Trump achieves more in a day then you will do in your lifetime

"Making mountain out of mole hill of minor vibrations at particular speed"

The problem is with the mizzile and it may have a impact on certain flight regimes and being blase about that can have bad consequences is what Hakeem was highlighting. Your comment on the vibration issue came across as blase...

You like to miss the woods for the trees yes?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Sep 2017 12:30

Just for the record.The R-73 spurred the dev. of equiv. western AAms and has now ben improved.

The R-73 is a highly maneuverable missile and mock dogfights between USAF and German Air Force MiG-29s (inherited from the former Air Forces of the National People's Army) equipped with the R-73/helmet mounted cueing have indicated that the high degree of "off-boresight" capability of the R-73 would make a significant difference in combat. The missile also has a mechanically simple but effective system for thrust-vectoring. The R-73 prompted the development of a number of western air-to-air missiles including the IRIS-T, MICA IR, Python IV and the latest Sidewinder variant, the AIM-9X which entered squadron service in 2003.

From 1994, the R-73 has been upgraded in production to the R-73M standard, which entered CIS service in 1997. The R-73M has greater range and a wider seeker angle (to 60° off-boresight), as well as improved IRCCM (Infrared Counter-Counter-Measures). Further developments include the R-74 (izdeliye 740) and its export variant RVV-MD.[7] Russia currently receives new improved air-to-air missiles on the basis of the R-73.[8]

An improved version of the R-74, the K-74M (izdeliye 750) features fully digital and re-programmable systems, and is intended for use on the MiG-35 or MiG-29K/M/M2 and Su-27SM, Su-30MK and Su-35S. A further upgrade, known as the K-74M2 (izdeliye 760), is intended for the fifth-generation Sukhoi Su-57 aircraft. This missile has reduced cross section to fit in internal weapon bays and will match the performance of the AIM-9X and the ASRAAM. A clean sheet design, the K-MD (izdeliye 300), will supersede the K-74M2 in the future.

PS:"MInor vibrations"! Rakesh Sharma told us at the BRF meet years ago,that the most difficult part of LCA testing would be the gun trials. There hasn't been any mention of this ever,to my knowledge.So I ask again,"does the LCA come without gun capability,essential for dogfighting? Was the absence of a gun been accepted by the IAF too?" Any light on the subject would be most welcome,esp. from HAL.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Sep 2017 14:25

You are continuing with personal attacks with zero input. I am pointing out that Israel has not been able to integrate even R73 "fully" after 10 years in the LCA. Hence Yes, there will always be niggles. Mounting an overwing missile on Jaguar with an adapter is completely different issue. F18 have/had vibration and flutter issues in some flight regimes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2017 14:36

Gyan wrote:This Article has no real connection to issue at hand. CAG Report shows that Israelis are delaying full integration of WVR & BVR missiles with LCA.

All I was saying is that for a given person, his own opinion and information are paramount and might seem more important than what anyone else says. That is what I meant by the analogy of "experienced malaria patient" claiming that his illness beats all others which are dismissed as minor.

In this case this case you are blaming corruption and dismissing flutter issues as minor. Here is what you said:

Gyan wrote:Making mountain out of mole hill of minor vibrations at particular speed..

Flutter is "minor". My linked article has "no connection" - but your view must be held as sacrosanct

In fact I believe that you did not bother reading the article I posted because it shows how a missile that was successfully fired from the Jaguar was unsafe to carry because of aerodynamic issues. I believe that article whether you read it or not. Of course you may be able to identify dalals of that era - but the important point is that your view has no more than 50% chance of being accurate, and in my opinion far less than that. Since you chose to make the allegation, I choose to point out that other possibilities exist and I believe that you dismiss them as "minor" with no inside knowledge and with an emphatic intent to claim that corruption is involved.

That is your view - but I must put that on record that other views may be right and not yours. I am sure you can live with that. Can't help you if you don't like it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2017 14:43

Gyan wrote: F18 have/had vibration and flutter issues in some flight regimes.

Go on. Let us hear the details and understand how that compares with the Tejas.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Sep 2017 01:08

Philip wrote: PS:"MInor vibrations"! Rakesh Sharma told us at the BRF meet years ago,that the most difficult part of LCA testing would be the gun trials. There hasn't been any mention of this ever,to my knowledge.So I ask again,"does the LCA come without gun capability,essential for dogfighting? Was the absence of a gun been accepted by the IAF too?" Any light on the subject would be most welcome,esp. from HAL.

I gave you the insider information at least two times now. In modern flight testing you don't just take a plane for a test ride and fire a gun. The machine has to be specifically instrumented for the purpose. The instrumentation for a probe is not going to be the same as that for a gun. A flight certification agency (CEMILAC) has to clear the aircraft with the instrumentation. The tests can only proceed after that and only on the test planes cleared for the purpose.

Thanks to the priority of the bean counters in ADA, MoD, IAF, ADA has very few test articles near SP standard on which they can carry out test flights. As a result many of the tests get serialized, in this case testing the probe and the gun firings. But, both will be cleared before FoC which is next year.

Meanwhile, they have already fired the gun from the aircraft on the ground. They know all the stresses that are exerted and the structures response to the same. These stresses are higher on the ground because the aircraft is tethered in place. There should be any problems in the air. But testing it has to wait in order.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Sep 2017 04:23

Indranil, Your last para sums it up well.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Sep 2017 05:00

ramana wrote:Indranil, Your last para sums it up well.

Ramana garu I bet that in a couple of months time there will be some bright spark if not Marshall Filipov talking about the gun trials and the missile vibrations....

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Sep 2017 06:00

KBDagha wrote:Excellent Video about Tejas! Great to hear directly from Sq. 45 pilots about its superior capabilities.
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... 5747621%2F&

But the pro-Tejas constituency will only grow as more IAF pilots are exposed to the plane
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/911083471820308480

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Sep 2017 06:12

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/912336966481412096 --> India also needs to invest urgently in a Gallium Nitride MMIC foundry. At the moment the wafers are being imported.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 28 Sep 2017 13:44

Rakesh wrote: But the pro-Tejas constituency will only grow as more IAF pilots are exposed to the plane

Boom, Dang , Thank you

LCA -Tejas for India's Single Engined Fighter
AMCA - For India's Next Gen Plane

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Sep 2017 14:33

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/912336966481412096 --> India also needs to invest urgently in a Gallium Nitride MMIC foundry. At the moment the wafers are being imported.

Pls check a reply to that tweet.

IISc to get Rs 3,000-crore Gallium Nitride foundry

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Sep 2017 19:04

Ot but this is a very sensitive technology and hard to develop or buy. Chinese have been trying to buy semiconductor firms for a long time but US is not allowing it for many years.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Sep 2017 20:37

JTull wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/912336966481412096 --> India also needs to invest urgently in a Gallium Nitride MMIC foundry. At the moment the wafers are being imported.
Pls check a reply to that tweet.

IISc to get Rs 3,000-crore Gallium Nitride foundry

Yes this was known for sometime and a link was posted in the R7D thread. I guess people don't read that.

Thanks for the link.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 29 Sep 2017 23:29

Beautiful pictures shared on Facebook

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 9156428208

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Sep 2017 13:28

Tx. Indra, I'd not seen your replies earlier.However,how long is the testing/dev. phase going to last? If we're taking this long to develop,test and then build (at excruciatingly slow speed) the LCA,imagine the decades it will take to field the AMCA which some reports say we want instead of the FGFA. The FGFA have prototypes flying with first deliveries due next yr. to the RuAF.We can't even make a single worthwhile engine for a fighter ,failed with the Kaveri and have done little since then in revamping the entire engine-dev. capability of the DRDO.The AMCA like the future LCA variants will be fully dependent upon a firang engine.,with the threat of sanctions if we need to N-test again. The FGFA deal being a G-to-G deal,won't enthuse sections of the arms community used to wheeling and dealing.

Even after all testing for the Mk-1 (the sub-std. version of the LCA) is completed,unless the production rate is drastically ramped up,we have not a "snowflake's chance in hell" of replacing 11 sqds. of MIG-21s due to retire v.soon with LCAs.Enter the SE.....Gripen?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 30 Sep 2017 13:30

Straighten from horse's mouth. Takes about 3 months to assemble an LCA.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 30 Sep 2017 14:46

Paul wrote:Straighten from horse's mouth. Takes about 3 months to assemble an LCA.

But how many can be parallely assembled.

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Sep 2017 15:00

Rishi_Tri wrote:
Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/911050751757053952

In this video, IAF pilots from the operational 45 sqdrn are all praise for the Tejas. Hear it from the horse's mouth

https://m.facebook.com/plugins/video.ph ... 5747621%2F&
Fantastic video, in fact a good tutorial on Tejas. When is the squadron moving to Sulur? It must be such as welcome change for Pilots given to flying Migs and even Mirages / Jaguars.

But the person who did this video kept going to the rear (no double meaning intended)

Anyone with good psychomototor skills can fly the plane ??! Cool .. I wonder if one of the demos can be made available for public .. the mig 29 is currently available for "edge of space flights

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 30 Sep 2017 20:21

MAKE IN INDIA: NEW DEAL FOR DEFENCE- PART 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gXzcwC ... e=youtu.be

MAKE IN INDIA: NEW DEAL FOR DEFENCE- PART 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2FI3RL ... e=youtu.be

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 Sep 2017 20:28

Can Wrap up LCA-Tejas Production in 3 Years: HAL Chief

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/can-wrap-up-lca-tejas-p ... hal-chief/ .

In the text form.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 30 Sep 2017 22:22

Philip wrote:
Even after all testing for the Mk-1 (the sub-std. version of the LCA) is completed,unless the production rate is drastically ramped up,we have not a "snowflake's chance in hell" of replacing 11 sqds. of MIG-21s due to retire v.soon with LCAs.Enter the SE.....Gripen?[/b]

Yindoos no good onlee! Onlee gud for lungi dance and rice!! We need to lie flat before roos!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Sep 2017 23:01

HAL, ADA
Why not make the LCA tejas Navy a twin engined F-414 beast?

A twin engined TD for the Navy can be attempted no?