LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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shiv
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by shiv »

The paragraph on the Tejas page linked below is interesting - I have bolded the bit that keeps getting repeated
http://www.tejas.gov.in/first_flights.html
The Tejas is a pilot’s aeroplane and nowhere is this more evident than in her handling qualities and performance characteristics. She rockets off the runway and into the air in a mere 500 meters, and her control harmony and carefree handling characteristics are clearly demonstrated in the almost poetic ballet in the air that is the aerobatic display routine. Frugal fuel consumption and inbuilt air refuelling capability leave the Tejas with combat legs that will be the envy of many a contemporary platform. A fighter pilot with minimal experience will be able to handle the Tejas in the air with ease, and her small size and exceptional manoeuvrability makes the Tejas an opponent that not many will choose to tangle with.
We don't talk about this much but I am sure it counts for something..

In contrast here is what Mally Wollen wrote about the MiG 21
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/aircr ... uresh.html
The BIS variant entered the IAF in 1977; license production (220 aircraft) by HAL ended in 1988. Aside from performance improvement, safety features were introduced e.g. ‘blown-flaps’ enabling a slower landing-approach, better view of the runway and slower touch-down; recovery to level flight (roll and pitch channel auto pilot) in the event of disorientation at night/in cloud; ground level ejection. Regrettably, the cockpit layout and external view remained a ‘nightmare’.
On the same page - WgCo Suresh wrote:
In the words of ACM Tipnis, “MiG-21 is a high demand aircraft”. It certainly is a quantum jump for an inexperienced pilot who has just finished his training on sub-sonic jet trainers like Kiran or Iskra.
MiG-21, although a high demand aircraft, is docile and has no aerodynamic vices. It has excellent handling characteristics and has served to provide very valuable flying experience to a large number of IAF pilots. Some like the previous and the present CAS swear by the aircraft. It is the docility of the aircraft that not only generates a good bit of confidence but also encourages forays into exceeding the limits of the stipulated flight envelope. In air combat maneuvers, many inexperienced pilots have got into trouble without realizing it. At high angles of attack, the induced drag increases sharply and unless the angle of attack is quickly reduced, the aircraft develops a high rate of descent, which cannot be arrested with the power available (even with reheat). Added to this, there is no protest from the aircraft like severe shudder, wing rocking. etc, prevalent in other types of aircraft. This gives a feeling of well-being and a number of pilots did not recognize the danger in time to take recovery action or eject.
The air force had little choice when they inducted the MiG 21 and they made the best of it. But if there is a choice to induct an aircraft that is capable and yet safer to fly, then it would seem logical to go that route. I hate to say this but there appears to me to be a kind of evil pride in an ability to "conquer a beast"/taming the bucking bronco among frontline pilots who flew the MiG 21 as compared to those who flew "tame" aircraft and now - more than a decade after the passing of my cousin who wrote that article I can, right or wrong, sense an element of that in his words where he tends to downplay the faults of the MiG 21 that caused (in his words) 40% of accidents while delving into great detail about the technical and maintenance issues.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by suryag »

Learned folks - in general, how is training scheduled for incoming squadron pilots for new aircraft coming in ? For example, let us say squadron 18(as was in the news item that it may take up Tejas) is asked to fly the Tejas or for that matter any other aircraft(Rafale). Do they go for some hands on training(flying + ground ops + maintenance ops) @ a factory or at an existing squadron. In the context of Tejas, if the squadron were to take up this aircraft and the aircraft are not ready can they start simulation flying, actual flying on aircraft from Squadron 45 and also having their technicians/flight engineers running the ops on full time round robin basis at the existing squadron so that they are fully ready by the time the aircraft comes in from the factory ?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Rakesh wrote:
VKumar wrote:Tweeter telling that India should make LCA as LIFT and junk HAWK. Saying that if not f16 India should buy F 35. Says it's on offer provided CISMOA is agreed. Responder said india's long term interests and concern for sovereignty requires development of own arms and armaments industry. Own LCA, AMCA, KAVERI.
Never, EVER, sign CISMOA and now known as COMCASA.

You want a relationship? Then do it on mutually agreeable terms. You do not get to dictate terms to us. And stop scaring mongering us with the threat of Dragon Fire. You ain't helping us anyway with the Dragon...COMCASA or not.

COMCASA – Should India Sign?
http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/ ... ndia-sign/

By Captain Ramaprasad - a veteran Indian Navy submariner and a recipient of the Vishisht Seva Medal (VSM) for his contributions towards the development of an indigenous combat management system for undersea applications.
Rakesh, let’s get one thing crystal clear. No one ever helps anyone. If India wants to sort its affairs out there is only one country that will help - India. Alliances are important sometimes not at others. They should be looked at with a very clear and pragmatic eye.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Rishi_Tri »

Rakesh wrote:January 08/2018: https://twitter.com/writetake/status/950587566482321409 --> The first Customer Acceptance Flight of Tejas SP-7 is over with No 45 Sqn Flying Daggers CO, Grp Capt Madhav Rangachari taking the bird out on its official sortie. Couple of more flights and SP-7 will be part of the Sqn soon.
While we all were scaring away the bird named F35, SP 7 flew. Like this. Which SP # is next in line? Has SP 5 flown?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by SSridhar »

VKumar wrote:Tweeter telling that India should make LCA as LIFT and junk HAWK. Saying that if not f16 India should buy F 35. Says it's on offer provided CISMOA is agreed. Responder said india's long term interests and concern for sovereignty requires development of own arms and armaments industry. Own LCA, AMCA, KAVERI.
VKumar, is that tweeter a significant person for us to be bothered about? Otherwise, there are hundreds of similar tweets.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

SSridhar wrote:
VKumar wrote:Tweeter telling that India should make LCA as LIFT and junk HAWK. Saying that if not f16 India should buy F 35. Says it's on offer provided CISMOA is agreed. Responder said india's long term interests and concern for sovereignty requires development of own arms and armaments industry. Own LCA, AMCA, KAVERI.
VKumar, is that tweeter a significant person for us to be bothered about? Otherwise, there are hundreds of similar tweets.
Yes, just quote the twitter and post the link.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by JTull »

Republic Day 2018: Flying Daggers to lead fighter display with a 3 aircraft formation, like last year.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/955769694400561152
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUOI7INUMAABeJw.jpg

As Victor Hugo said, "No army can stop an idea whose time has come."
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by JayS »

tsarkar wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUOI7INUMAABeJw.jpg

As Victor Hugo said, "No army can stop an idea whose time has come."
Where is the like button..? :mrgreen:

Just saw it on LCA FB page. Very happy to see this picture.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by ramana »

Like the new slogan.

"Encouraging Indigenization"
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/writetake/status/955769694400561152 ---> Grp Capt Madhav Rangachari, CO of No 45 Sqn, on R-Day flypast plans by Tejas over Rajpath. Report on Flying Daggers goes live on Tarmak007 & associated networks on 25 January 2018.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/writetake/status/955737216306757634 --> No guts, No glory! Hold your breath. Get ready for an encounter with the Flying Daggers. Releasing on 25 January 2018 on Tarmak 007 & associated networks.

Link to same video, but you can watch this much clearer --> https://www.facebook.com/Tarmak007/vide ... 730719914/
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by suryag »

Met Gp.Capt Rangachari while flying to delhi, amazingly simple man, was surprised how much fan following he has, had about 2 mins with him and the first 30 seconds was spent confirming he was the Gp.Capt, asked him to convey to DD folks to please not screw it up like last time. Wanted to ask him quite a few things but didnt get that time
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

suryag wrote:Met Gp.Capt Rangachari while flying to delhi, amazingly simple man, was surprised how much fan following he has, had about 2 mins with him and the first 30 seconds was spent confirming he was the Gp.Capt, asked him to convey to DD folks to please not screw it up like last time. Wanted to ask him quite a few things but didnt get that time
Surya, DD will screw it up given their recruitment of people aspiring for a Govt job rather than passionate photographers & videographers, training lacking any emphasis on cinematographic creativity and KPA of getting maximum footage of VIPs.

Gp.Capt. Rangachari can do nothing about it.

A better ask from him would have been asking ADA/NFTC/IAF to get more publicity for the Tejas, including getting channels & production houses like National Geographic & Discovery, and focusing on technical details like FCS & CLAW making it a pilot's plane and making it safe for carefree handling.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Zynda »

Somebody here were inquiring or had posted recommendations (along with JayS) about Introduction of Flight by John Anderson Jr. Would like to say that book is very good and a delight to read. Basics are treated very well with good correlation to real physics. Liked the way he tends to explain...very lucid. Light on maths...anyone who has completed BE in Mech/Aero Engineering can grasp it very well although even 12th standard Physics level will do as well. Would def recommend the above book.

Sorry for the OT...
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Jayram »

Zynda wrote:Somebody here were inquiring or had posted recommendations (along with JayS) about Introduction of Flight by John Anderson Jr. Would like to say that book is very good and a delight to read. Basics are treated very well with good correlation to real physics. Liked the way he tends to explain...very lucid. Light on maths...anyone who has completed BE in Mech/Aero Engineering can grasp it very well although even 12th standard Physics level will do as well. Would def recommend the above book.

Sorry for the OT...
That book is not cheap!! Great reading though even the first chapter.
These quotes alone made my day..
Image
Will pick it up on my trip to India. Hopefully cheaper there.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by shiv »

There is a paperback edition for less than Rs 3000 in Amazon. Right now.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by prasannasimha »

There is a low price Indian edition for sale in most big book shops. I had bought it for my Son for his Birthday when he was a kid and it was a part of his reading in his aerospace engineering course too later on.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by vcsekhar »

Thanks very much for the book recommendation, i will have to get it.
Although, i just searched for it and found that someone from Iran had scanned the whole book and put it up on their website
Its not great quality but its ok till I get the book delivered from Amazon.
http://ae.sharif.edu/~iae/Download/Intr ... flight.pdf
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Zynda »

I would say that if anyone is looking to get introduced to aerodynamics without going through maths, "Flight without Formulae" by A.C Kermode is good too. In fact, one of my mentors always suggests to go through literature which does not have any maths initially & get a decent understanding on the physics before jumping to literature/books which have maths. Just saying...
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by shiv »

How many guys know that the following ebook by one Prof Komerath even exists
Low Speed Aerodynamics

Or this book: 450. Rupees. Not dolahs
Design-Centered Introduction to Aerospace Engineering (EXTROVERT Book 1) [Print Replica] Kindle Edition
Back in 1997 I was asked to figure out how to teach aerospace engineering to students in their very first week of college. No Calculus, no Engineering Mechanics, no Engineering Graphics, no Physics or Chemistry beyond high school. This book captures that course, distilled through several teachings at both Georgia Tech and other places far away. Whether you are a middle-schooler excited about rocket science and airplanes, a PhD candidate who needs perspective, a professor terrified of asking basic questions, a researcher who needs access to the basics of a different field, or just an enthusiast who wants to understand how complex flying machines are first conceived and take shape, this book might get you hurtling down the runway to takeoff in short order. It will most certainly *NOT* give you detailed derivations, and we don't even ask you to go through the assignments and tests of the real course (those can be done separately!). But this is the knowledge that was presented to my first batch of students, to help them to design their own airliners and test the limits of its flight envelope, inside 6 weeks of first entering college. More importantly, the "trick" of conceptual design should become second nature to you, so that you can go out and attack grand problems without fear, and with a systematic solution plan. The book should serve as a portal to all of the different disciplines of aerospace engineering.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by ramana »

The Prof has put it very well


"The trick of Conceptual Design should become second nature to you so that you can attack grand problems without fear, and with a systematic solution plan!"


I have tried to master basic physics and engineering and that has helped me a lot.
Last edited by Indranil on 25 Jan 2018 23:23, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Identity
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Kartik »

Please get back to the LCA Tejas topic and discuss other topics elsewhere.

Ananth Krishnan has come up with this video on the No.45 Flying Daggers Squadron and its a must watch for jingos. The most comprehensive look into Tejas operations with interviews of crews.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Kartik »

Must mention one thing- No.45 is very top heavy with 1 Group Captain as the CO, 4 Wing Commanders and the rest being Squadron Leaders. Clearly they're forming the nucleus of future Tejas squadrons here.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Kartik wrote:Must mention one thing- No.45 is very top heavy with 1 Group Captain as the CO, 4 Wing Commanders and the rest being Squadron Leaders. Clearly they're forming the nucleus of future Tejas squadrons here.
That’s actually quite common now. This is a direct result of the degradation and devaluation of armed forces ranks and armed forces in general vis a vis the babus. Our companies are now commanded by Lt Cols which is a huge problem. But I don’t want to go OT here.

For the purposes of this thread having 2/3 Wing Cos in a sqdn is not rare. In 45 case it’s a new aircardt they ate inducting so there are many aspects that need to be looked at and that’s why they have maybe one more Wing Co than normal. But DJ can confirm/correct.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Raman »

I appreciate the effort that tarmak/Anantha Krishnan has taken in making this interview available to us.

Unfortunately, I think it was a wasted opportunity. :-(

Rather than talking about their mothers, favorite sports, who makes the most jokes, etc I wish the discussion had focussed on:
- what is involved in inducting a new platform?
- what has IAF's experience been inducting Tejas vs other aircraft?
- how does a new airframe join the squadron?
- what is the process of creating a syllabus to operationalize a new pilot?
- how did these pilots apply for/qualify for 45 sqn?
- etc. etc.

I think it is possible to get some really useful and insightful information without compromising OPSEC.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Rakesh »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:That’s actually quite common now. This is a direct result of the degradation and devaluation of armed forces ranks and armed forces in general vis a vis the babus. Our companies are now commanded by Lt Cols which is a huge problem. But I don’t want to go OT here.
I REALLY would like to discuss this part, but in another thread. I agree with Kartik. Only LCA discussions in here.

Tactics & Military Craft thread? Or is there a more appropriate thread?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Kartik »

Raman wrote:I appreciate the effort that tarmak/Anantha Krishnan has taken in making this interview available to us.

Unfortunately, I think it was a wasted opportunity. :-(

Rather than talking about their mothers, favorite sports, who makes the most jokes, etc I wish the discussion had focussed on:
- what is involved in inducting a new platform?
- what has IAF's experience been inducting Tejas vs other aircraft?
- how does a new airframe join the squadron?
- what is the process of creating a syllabus to operationalize a new pilot?
- how did these pilots apply for/qualify for 45 sqn?
- etc. etc.

I think it is possible to get some really useful and insightful information without compromising OPSEC.
I agree. Wasted opportunity to glean a lot of information that isn't classified but would enlighten viewers on the experience of inducting the first of a new type into service. His heart is in the right place, but the content was very disappointing to say the least.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Haridas »

ramana wrote:The Prof has put it very well


"The trick of Conceptual Design should become second nature to you so that you can attack grand problems without fear, and with a systematic solution plan!"


I have tried to master basic physics and engineering and that has helped me a lot.

Perfect :D
Being a multidisciplinary skilled person, it has given me very wide wings for conceptual design in so many fields. Feel blessed to have met many legends including the good professor.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Katare »

Raman wrote:I appreciate the effort that tarmak/Anantha Krishnan has taken in making this interview available to us.

Unfortunately, I think it was a wasted opportunity. :-(

Rather than talking about their mothers, favorite sports, who makes the most jokes, etc I wish the discussion had focussed on:
- what is involved in inducting a new platform?
- what has IAF's experience been inducting Tejas vs other aircraft?
- how does a new airframe join the squadron?
- what is the process of creating a syllabus to operationalize a new pilot?
- how did these pilots apply for/qualify for 45 sqn?
- etc. etc.

I think it is possible to get some really useful and insightful information without compromising OPSEC.
I had same thoughts initially but i think he would not have got approval for the interview if he had gone that rout.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Indranil »

I think AK has that bent. He is more interested in people, which is fine. A little too forced sometimes though for my liking too: Whether you want it or not, you have to talk about your mother :D

Good to hear the men gush over LCA.
1. Better to maintain than a Mirage! The aircraft speaks to you: tell you what is wrong. SAAB markets this capability as one of the biggest strengths of the GRipen
2. Very agile and responsive to controls. Designers dream: pilot -designer interface)
3. More versatile than any aircraft in IAF inventory!
4. Equivalent or better scores in bomb delivery than all "modern" aircraft in IAF inventory (Remember, this was poised to be a point defense fighter)
5. Best avionics among all IAF inventory.

What else?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

Indranil wrote:...
Good to hear the men gush over LCA.
1. Better to maintain than a Mirage! The aircraft speaks to you: tell you what is wrong. SAAB markets this capability as one of the biggest strengths of the GRipen
2. Very agile and responsive to controls. Designers dream: pilot -designer interface)
3. More versatile than any aircraft in IAF inventory!
4. Equivalent or better scores in bomb delivery than all "modern" aircraft in IAF inventory (Remember, this was poised to be a point defense fighter)
5. Best avionics among all IAF inventory.

What else?
And this was for MK1- IOC2.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by VKumar »

srai wrote:
SSridhar wrote: VKumar, is that tweeter a significant person for us to be bothered about? Otherwise, there are hundreds of similar tweets.
Yes, just quote the twitter and post the link.
@mjdv3 from 20 Jan 18
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by SaiK »

Katare wrote:
Raman wrote:I appreciate the effort ...

I think it is possible to get some really useful and insightful information without compromising OPSEC.
I had same thoughts initially but i think he would not have got approval for the interview if he had gone that rout.
Remember Gp Capt didn't join with the boys? What does it tell?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by nam »

Indranil wrote:I think AK has that bent. He is more interested in people, which is fine. A little too forced sometimes though for my liking too: Whether you want it or not, you have to talk about your mother :D

Good to hear the men gush over LCA.
1. Better to maintain than a Mirage! The aircraft speaks to you: tell you what is wrong. SAAB markets this capability as one of the biggest strengths of the GRipen
2. Very agile and responsive to controls. Designers dream: pilot -designer interface)
3. More versatile than any aircraft in IAF inventory!
4. Equivalent or better scores in bomb delivery than all "modern" aircraft in IAF inventory (Remember, this was poised to be a point defense fighter)
5. Best avionics among all IAF inventory.

What else?
Ability to integrate anything we want, change it as we want, because it is made in the country. I noticed this was mentioned quite a lot. Specially the ground crew.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:
Katare wrote: I had same thoughts initially but i think he would not have got approval for the interview if he had gone that rout.
Remember Gp Capt didn't join with the boys? What does it tell?
Nothing. He was busy with something else.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Jayram »

nam wrote:
Indranil wrote:I think AK has that bent. He is more interested in people, which is fine. A little too forced sometimes though for my liking too: Whether you want it or not, you have to talk about your mother :D

Good to hear the men gush over LCA.
1. Better to maintain than a Mirage! The aircraft speaks to you: tell you what is wrong. SAAB markets this capability as one of the biggest strengths of the GRipen
2. Very agile and responsive to controls. Designers dream: pilot -designer interface)
3. More versatile than any aircraft in IAF inventory!
4. Equivalent or better scores in bomb delivery than all "modern" aircraft in IAF inventory (Remember, this was poised to be a point defense fighter)
5. Best avionics among all IAF inventory.

What else?
Ability to integrate anything we want, change it as we want, because it is made in the country. I noticed this was mentioned quite a lot. Specially the ground crew.
And to do it quickly.. That was mentioned as well
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by sudeepj »

shiv wrote:The paragraph on the Tejas page linked below is interesting - I have bolded the bit that keeps getting repeated
http://www.tejas.gov.in/first_flights.html
The Tejas is a pilot’s aeroplane and nowhere is this more evident than in her handling qualities and performance characteristics. She rockets off the runway and into the air in a mere 500 meters, and her control harmony and carefree handling characteristics are clearly demonstrated in the almost poetic ballet in the air that is the aerobatic display routine. Frugal fuel consumption and inbuilt air refuelling capability leave the Tejas with combat legs that will be the envy of many a contemporary platform. A fighter pilot with minimal experience will be able to handle the Tejas in the air with ease, and her small size and exceptional manoeuvrability makes the Tejas an opponent that not many will choose to tangle with.
We don't talk about this much but I am sure it counts for something..

....
Something.. Hell, it should count for a lot! I remember reading somewhere that 1/3rd to 1/2 of the graduating pilots from NDA in the 70s, who went on to fly migs for the most part died in air crashes. That almost all of these happened in peace time is even more galling. This casualty rate matches that seen in world wars.. The only difference is that these deaths were spread out over a longer time frame.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by fanne »

i doubt that it is right half dead. The annual intake of fighter pilots is about 100. 1000 pilots. The pilots dying in crashes total may not be more than 100.
F-22 had three goals - 1) look first, shoot first, kill first 2)? and 3) A 19 year old fresh out of flying school should be able to fly it.
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