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LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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ramana
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 28 Nov 2017 21:45

Great news all around on the Tejas.

JayS, Indranil, and VivekK,

Can we compare the LCA to the Mirage 2000 please?

Thanks,

ramana

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 28 Nov 2017 22:09

RSAF gets 'immeasurable value' training with Indian Air Force: Ng Eng Hen
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/sin ... ng-9448722

Singapore Defence Minister's Facebook post (pics in the above link) --> For 45 minutes, I placed my life in the hands of Air Vice Marshal AP Singh as we flew 20,000ft above the Kalaikunda skies in the IAF’s new fighter plane – Tejas. I have never met him before but my RSAF pilots who have trained regularly with IAF pilots say he is among the best, so it was an easy decision. In fact, the plane ride was so smooth despite the G-turns and manoeuvres that I managed to even take some selfies!

Singapore Defence Minister Dr Ng Eng Hen with India's Air Vice-Marshal A P Singh (Photo: MINDEF)
Image

Dr Ng Eng Hen with Republic of Singapore Air Force servicemen (Photo: MINDEF)
Image

Dr Ng Eng Hen in front of an F-16 (Photo: MINDEF)
Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 28 Nov 2017 22:21

srai wrote:
Singha wrote:loss of Tejas will not be just Tejas, but costly and long term avionics and weapons pkgs and their AMCs will all need to be imported to fit in with whatever the OEM has qualified.

no astra, astra bad bad, only amraam will do,
no saaw, SDB3 is much better
no garuda when you have a vast range of GBU with diamondbacks.
and indian EW or radar need not apply.
even the israelis were made to use the APG68v9 radar on F16I Sufa than their own 2032/2054

there are BILLIONS of $$ over 40 years at stake here. fortunes and careers could be made and unmade by pleasing the right people and toeing the right line.

Cheen air marshals must be roftl at the prospect of facing 150 imported F-solah in 2030 from the IAF (x) - so much for CNP metrics and playing the bigger game.

I am so disgusted will take vanvas from mil threads for a while and stick to L&M - atleast all everyone wants there is a good lay in the hay and none to my knowledge are import-pasand :lol:

8) Yes with you Singha. Time for vanvas myself :)


Balarama approach.
Nice!
And equally useless.

And Balarama had the gall to question the Duryodhana vs Bhima fight after the event!!!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JTull » 28 Nov 2017 23:39

DDR/SJha quotes

Singapore's Defence Minister, Dr Eng Hen, has flown in a PV-6 LCA Tejas trainer aircraft, at @IAF_MCC's Kalaikunda Air Base in West Bengal. Incidentally, Kalaikunda AFB has hosted many RSAF detachments in the past for exercises and training purposes.

The flight of the Singaporean Defence Minister in a Tejas trainer aircraft (PV-6) *clearly* underlines the *reliability* of the aircraft in @IAF_MC's eyes. It also shows that IAF is keen to dispel the bad air created by the alleged comparisons made with the Gripen & F-16

Meanwhile, a Kaveri gas turbine follow-on should be developed on a mission mode basis, so that by the late 2020s, India can offer Tejas variants with a home-grown engine.

Instead of buying F-16s and gutting the prospect of a serious Tejas production run, India should instead strive to posit an AESA equipped HAL Tejas as an affordable replacement for legacy F-16 fleets worldwide. Not everybody is gonna be able to buy F-35s.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 28 Nov 2017 23:42

ramana wrote:Great news all around on the Tejas.

JayS, Indranil, and VivekK,

Can we compare the LCA to the Mirage 2000 please?

Thanks,

ramana



OK. Found a quick comparison:

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraf ... e+Aircraft


First line is M2000 Version C
Second Line is Tejas Mk1

Looks like equal in most aspects.


Code: Select all

Subjects

Dassault Mirage 2000C

HAL Tejas Mk.1

 
Crew

1

1

 
Production

611

30

 
Length

47.11 ft (14.4 m)

43.31 ft (13.2 m)

 
Width

30.0 ft (9.1 m)

26.9 ft (8.2 m)

 
Height

17.1 ft (5.2 m)

14.4 ft (4.4 m)

 
Empty Weight

16,535 lb (7,500 kg)

14,462 lb (6,560 kg)

 
MTOW

37,479 lb (17,000 kg)

29,762 lb (13,500 kg)

 
Power

1 x SNECMA M53-P2 afterburning turbofan engine developing 21,385 lb of thrust.

1 x General Electric F404-GE-IN20 afterburning turbofan engine developing 19,000 lb thrust.

 
Speed

1,453 mph (2,338 kph)

1,370 mph (2,205 kph)

 
Range

1,150 miles (1,850 km)

1,056 miles (1,700 km)

 
Ceiling

54,035 ft (16,470 m)

52,493 ft (16,000 m)

 
Armament

STANDARD, FIXED:
 2 x 30mm DEFA internal revolver-type cannons under fuselage.

 OPTIONAL:
 Mission-specific ordnance can include any of the following:

 Matra "Magic 2" Air-to-Air missiles (AAMs), Matra "Super 530D" AAMs, Matra "Super 530S" AAMs, Laser-Guided Bombs (LGBs), Conventional Dumb Bombs, Anti-Runway Munition Dispensers, Anti-Runway Bombs, Cluster Bombs, AS-30L air-to-surface missiles (ASMs), "Armat" Anti-Radiation / Anti-Radar Missiles (ARMs), AM 39 "Exocet" Anti-Ship Missiles (ASMs) and Nuclear Stand-Off Missiles.

STANDARD:
 1 x 23mm GSh-23 twin-barrel internal cannon.

 OPTIONAL:
 Air-to-air, air-to-surface, laser-guided and conventional drop/launch ordnance as needed. External fuel and LITENING targeting pod can replace some weapon systems at certain hardpoints.


Can some one mark up the changes for the Mk2?


The SEF is a MMRCA residual after the Rafale was procured.

The MMRCA was a M2000 requirement.

From above table Tejas Mk1 is quite there as the M 2000 Version C.

Do we have comments from any IAF test pilots who compare the flight characteristics of the M 2000 and the Tejas Mk1?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 01:01

Ramana-ji: The Tejas is a superior platform to the Mirage 2000. We have got a winner on our hands. See below....

Beyond LCA Tejas Mk 1
http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1376

Former Chief Test Pilot for the LCA Tejas programme, Air Commodore Parvez Khokhar who was intimately associated with the development of this aircraft and has considerable experience on this platform, had this to share, “In my view, the LCA Tejas Mk 1 in many ways is far superior to the MiG-21 that the IAF plans to retire by 2018. In my assessment, in some respects, performance of the LCA Tejas Mk 1 is better than that of the Mirage 2000 which is currently on the inventory of the IAF."

LCA Tejas is far superior than Mirage-2000 and the Chinese JF-17
https://defenceupdate.in/lca-tejas-far- ... ese-jf-17/

The quote below is from H Siddesha, project director and technology director of LCA at the Aeronautical Development Agency.
Our engineers at ADA have studied the design of Mirage and made an aircraft exactly the way our pilots wanted it to be with all the 21st century available expertise. As a result, the Tejas is a far more technologically superior aircraft. Though it’s not combat proven like the Mirage since it is in its early service days, it is no less of an aircraft than the French contemporary.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 01:10

JTull wrote:DDR/SJha quotes

Instead of buying F-16s and gutting the prospect of a serious Tejas production run, India should instead strive to posit an AESA equipped HAL Tejas as an affordable replacement for legacy F-16 fleets worldwide. Not everybody is gonna be able to buy F-35s.

EXACTLY! Thank you for posting these tweets JTull!

Saurav Jha sings music to my ears. Give a line each to Tata and Adani. Let them churn out the Tejas, alongside HAL. It costs Rs 1250 - 1300 crore a line!!!! That is like ~ $200 million dollars for each line. That is NOTHING compared to the SEF acquisition cost, with estimates ranging from $15 - $25 billion. Even if the amount of the Tejas line doubles or even triples - due to bureaucratic inefficiencies - it is still cheaper than the SEF :lol:

Sell them to countries that need a LIFT type aircraft. Sell them to countries as a replacement for their retiring F-16, but cannot afford F-35s. Why should India sell American F-16s to other countries, when we can sell India's Tejas to those same countries.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/935424808971517952 ---> Let us mince no words about this. A serious production run (at least 300) of the HAL Tejas family is a litmus test for India's commitment to indigenization.

I already have a breakdown of the 300 Tejas - by variants - ready 8)

Tejas Mk1 - 40 aircraft.
Tejas Mk1A - 83 aircraft and up that to 120 aircraft.
Tejas Mk2 - 140 aircraft at minimum - "OUR" SINGLE ENGINE FIGHTER.

TEJAS TEJASVI NAMAHAM!!!

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 29 Nov 2017 02:35

Rakesh, I feel that HAL/DRDO should auction the existing line plus ADA to a pvt entity with an assured order book of at least 250 aircraft to allow the entity with a way to make money on its investment. This entity should be allowed to add additional lines with expertise from HAL as needed to complete production run of 250 aircraft in the required timeframe.

Going by the 2 decades to select an AJT, 11 years or so to select the MMRCA and then change their mind, the SEF will not be finalized prior to 2027 unless it is one of the MMRCA contenders where the selection and decision making will take at least 5 years (i.e. 2022). Hence even pursuing this option is a national waste. Why? Because - by then requirements will have changed with China fielding more capable and state-of-the-art fighters and making them available to Pakistan. The F-16 will be touching obsolescence and the Gripen may be offering a more advanced version. So a SEF selection before 2022 is not possible. Therefore for all the malicious posts and whispers against it, Tejas is the SEF, the MMRCA and the Mig-21 replacement.

At its peak IAF probably flew 800 - 1200 Mig-21 aircraft. There is not enough money even in the expanded economy to fund MMRCA (the expensivfe and un-affordable Rafale), the SEF (F-16 or Gripen or ....), and build 45 squadrons from current 33 ( 12 squadrons = 240 aircraft). Bisons were supposed to be retired next year but will probably last another couple of years - 2020. At that time all Mig -21 aircraft bisons, bis will need to be retired = 225 aircraft. And soon thereafter the Mig-27s will face the same fate (another 40 aircraft).

To maintain its warfighting abilities, IAF needs to have at least 500 LCA in its inventory. Anything less would be suicidal.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2017 02:36

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji: The Tejas is a superior platform to the Mirage 2000. We have got a winner on our hands. See below....

Beyond LCA Tejas Mk 1
http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1376

Former Chief Test Pilot for the LCA Tejas programme, Air Commodore Parvez Khokhar who was intimately associated with the development of this aircraft and has considerable experience on this platform, had this to share, “In my view, the LCA Tejas Mk 1 in many ways is far superior to the MiG-21 that the IAF plans to retire by 2018. In my assessment, in some respects, performance of the LCA Tejas Mk 1 is better than that of the Mirage 2000 which is currently on the inventory of the IAF."

LCA Tejas is far superior than Mirage-2000 and the Chinese JF-17
https://defenceupdate.in/lca-tejas-far- ... ese-jf-17/

The quote below is from H Siddesha, project director and technology director of LCA at the Aeronautical Development Agency.
Our engineers at ADA have studied the design of Mirage and made an aircraft exactly the way our pilots wanted it to be with all the 21st century available expertise. As a result, the Tejas is a far more technologically superior aircraft. Though it’s not combat proven like the Mirage since it is in its early service days, it is no less of an aircraft than the French contemporary.



The 40+ 83 Tejas Mk1A are the Mig 21 replacement.

Right here we have the direct quotes from test pilots and designers that Tejas is better than Mirage 2000.
After 1999 Kargil war, the IAF wanted more Mirage 2000 planes. This requirement became the 126 planes MMRCA.
In 2015, GOI placed and order for 36 Rafales i.e. two squadrons.

The remaining planes are the SEF requirement for the original 126 MMRCA.

Right here the need to import any F16 or Grippen is demolished if Tejas is as good as the Mirage 2000 for if original requirement was for Mirage 2000 and Tejas is better then its case closed for import planes....

Can some one write this up or we let idrw take credit?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 02:41

IAF not unhappy with Tejas: Scientists
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 842022.cms

Senior scientists of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) on Tuesday said IAF isn't unhappy with the performance of Tejas but wants more variety. There were reports a few days ago of IAF brass pushing for imports rather than settling for advanced versions of Tejas. "The Tejas is a light aircraft that has limitations of carrying capacity and endurance. But it has achieved its role as the best aircraft in its class. It has also successfully fired the latest beyond visual range (BVR) missiles. The IAF wants more variety. All the aircraft in its inventory can't be light. The IAF requires all kinds and that doesn't mean it isn't satisfied with the performance of Tejas," said ADA director Girish S Deodhare. "The Tejas is a state-of-the-art platform while F-16s are of 1970 vintage. Several countries in West Asia have also expressed interest in in Tejas," another senior official said.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 02:58

Chanakya Move - brilliant idea! Get a foreign government official - of a well respected Viper operator (Singapore) - to fly the Tejas and offer feedback. Silence the critics who unfairly maligned the Tejas.

Tejas a superb aircraft, says Singapore Defence Minister
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 041228.ece

“The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is a superb aircraft and I am privileged to fly it,” said Singapore Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen on Tuesday, who flew a sortie at the Kalaikunda airbase. “They offered a ride. It was a beautiful flight... It has very impressive avionics, it is a superb plane…,” Dr. Ng said in response to a question from The Hindu. He was speaking on India-Singapore relations at Brookings India.

Talking on India’s Act East policy and the relations with the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN), Dr. Ng said he would discuss the possibility of multilateral naval exercises, with his Indian counterpart, Nirmala Sitharaman, on Wednesday. “Ms. Sitharaman and I would discuss India’s relations with ASEAN which could include multilateral exercises both in the Indian and Andaman seas. That we are keen because Andaman is geographically very close to the Straits of Malacca and sea lanes of communication… I would see at as more confidence building measures and as a signal as what multilateralism can be,” he added.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 03:09

ramana wrote:Right here the need to import any F16 or Grippen is demolished if Tejas is as good as the Mirage 2000 for if original requirement was for Mirage 2000 and Tejas is better then its case closed for import planes....

And here is the "real" clincher. The Tejas that is superior to the Mirage 2000C (the Indian variant being the Mirage 2000H) is the yet-to-achieve-FOC Tejas Mk1. That Tejas variant!

Imagine when the AESA equipped Tejas Mk1A (will be better than the Mirage 2000I) and GE F414 or Kaveri88 powered Tejas Mk2 (will be on par with Gripen E and F-16 Block 70 in a good number of respects) come along. Put a couple of Sudarshan LGBs or SAAWs and a pair of Astra Mk2 BVRAAMs, you got only deadly machine on your hands.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 29 Nov 2017 03:24

Rakesh wrote:IAF not unhappy with Tejas: Scientists
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 842022.cms

Senior scientists of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) on Tuesday said IAF isn't unhappy with the performance of Tejas but wants more variety. ........... All the aircraft in its inventory can't be light. The IAF requires all kinds and that doesn't mean it isn't satisfied with the performance of Tejas," said ADA director Girish S Deodhare. "The Tejas is a state-of-the-art platform while F-16s are of 1970 vintage. Several countries in West Asia have also expressed interest in in Tejas," another senior official said.

I'm sorry but that is the most idiotic statement I have come across. Variety in aircraft? Has anyone heard of logistics and inventory management? Does the IAF want only 50% serviceability like it has lived with or come to expect from its existing inventory?

And what do you get if you spec a "light fighter"? The Mk2 can be made bigger and carry more payload - this is the opportunity to build a "real nation" that the IAF is threatening to squander.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 03:25

@Vivek: Definitely agree with more Tejas in the IAF. As Ramana-ji said, we need to aim for a 60 squadron IAF. The only path to achieving that number is through local products i.e. Tejas and AMCA.

With regards to your above post. Read it again Saar :) All aircraft indeed cannot be light fighters. But that does not mean, he is arguing for SEF. You can't have a force with only Tejas aircraft. You need MiG-29, Mirage 2000, Jaguar (all three to be replaced by AMCA), Rambha, Rafale, etc. Different aircraft offer different capabilities. You cannot expect Tejas to do what Rambha does and vice versa.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Prem » 29 Nov 2017 03:34

With French E Make up on both Katarina ( Rafale) and Ballerina (LCA) , There ought not to be any frown from IAF Hyenas and Hassinas.
While French will laugh all the way to bank, Israelis will be disappointed and desperate to make deal on ELTA 2052. French should upgrade Indian M2K radar to AESA as a bonus.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 04:03


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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Neela » 29 Nov 2017 04:23

If India decides to sell the LCA Tejas to other countries ( to keep HAL lines busy ) , what features would one downgrade in the Mk1 to ensure only India has the best specs while the customer gets a decent version?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 29 Nov 2017 04:29

Ramana sir,

Fighter pilots who have spent major part of their careers on Mirage 2000s have said LCA is better. The late Khokhar sahab (who was actually a critic) said so. Cmde Verma, Suneet Krishna, Ranga sir. Who am I to say anything above them.

If LCA's rough edges are polished, it will be even better.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kartik » 29 Nov 2017 04:54

I don't know if this was posted here earlier or not- the next Tejas Mk1 squadron will be No.18 'Flying Bullets'. An honor for team Tejas.

From Tejas LCA's FB page

Tejas, on her journey, would find another home in the Form of No. 18 Squadron of the Indian Air Force also known as 'The Flying Bullets'



PVC recipient Sekhon's squadron to fly again


Coinciding with the golden jubilee of the commissioning of IAF’s only Param Vir Chakra recipient, Flying Officer Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon, the Air Headquarters has drawn up plans to revive the squadron that he had served in. The squadron will be re-formed on the indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft Tejas.

Sekhon’s outfit, No. 18 Squadron, also known as Flying Bullets, had been de-commissioned or “number-plated”, as it is called in Air Force terminology, two years ago after the MiG-27 aircraft that it was equipped with were decommissioned.


“We met Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa this week and he told us that the IAF is making sure that Sekhon’s contribution to the nation and the force is never forgotten,” Air Marshal AK Singh, former Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Air Command, who is Sekhon’s batchmate, said. “The process of revising the war hero’s squadron is part of this endeavour,” he added.

The squadron was formed on April 15, 1965, with Gnat fighter aircraft. It first saw action during the 1971 Indo-Pak war and operated out of Srinagar with the task of defending the Kashmir valley. Sekhon, then just 28 and hailing from Ludhiana, was part of the deployment. On December 14, 1971, Sekhon, along with another officer, scrambled to counter an attack by Pakistan aircraft and shot three enemy Sabre jets in aerial combat. His own aircraft was hit and he went down. For his actions, he was decorated with the highest gallantry award.

After the war, the Gnats were replaced with HAL Ajeet in 1975. In May 1989, when the squadron was at Hindon, it received the MiG-27 and its role changed from air defence to ground attack. It then moved to Kalaikunda in the North-East, where it was awarded the President’s Standards in 2015 before flying into the sunset.

Several of Sekhon’s batchmates from the 97th Pilots’ Course, who were commissioned in June 1967, had met the IAF chief and presented him a plaque dedicated to Sekhon that would be displayed in the Air Force Museum at Palam.

Reviving the squadron, however, could take time as new aircraft are yet to come in. Last year, the IAF had raised its first Tejas unit, No. 45 Squadron, the Flying Daggers, to be based at Salur in Tamil Nadu, but it has just a handful of planes and is not fully operational.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2017 05:27

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Right here the need to import any F16 or Grippen is demolished if Tejas is as good as the Mirage 2000 for if original requirement was for Mirage 2000 and Tejas is better then its case closed for import planes....

And here is the "real" clincher. The Tejas that is superior to the Mirage 2000C (the Indian variant being the Mirage 2000H) is the yet-to-achieve-FOC Tejas Mk1. That Tejas variant!

Imagine when the AESA equipped Tejas Mk1A (will be better than the Mirage 2000I) and GE F414 or Kaveri88 powered Tejas Mk2 (will be on par with Gripen E and F-16 Block 70 in a good number of respects) come along. Put a couple of Sudarshan LGBs or SAAWs and a pair of Astra Mk2 BVRAAMs, you got only deadly machine on your hands.


Sudarshan was shut down for non-performance.


What is the Astra Mk2?


Folks there is serious misperception.
The performance of the Mirage 2000 H(for Hindustan) in Kargil, encouraged IAF to seek 126 more of them.
The French shut the line down and said go buy Rafale.
GOI then launched the 126 a/c MMRCA.

ADA took a long time to complete the Mk1 and the saga is all chronicled. here.

Now if Tejas Mk1 is better than the Mirage 2000 C, then Tejas Mk1 fulfills the original Mirage 2000 requirement.
And GOI is willing to purchase Mk1A with AESA and BVR and the price is less than the Mirage 2000 upgrade!!!
And GOI is willing to fund the Mk2 development which has new engine and the plug/vlug which makes it more aerodynamically agile.

I think the facts that directly answer the IAF misgivings are more useful then Singapore DM flight videos.
One thing that HAL can do is immediately appoint a retired IAF officer to be in charge of the LCA program and show they get it.

The bonus of this path is that GOI can afford more planes for IAF than the limited numbers if SEF imports were chosen.

In other words this is win-win.

Vivek Ahuja, Can you do your magic and compare the Mirage 2000 vs. Tejas Mk1 in your program?

Just for reminder:

A Preliminary Performance Review of LCA by Dr. Vivek Ahuja

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2017 06:20

^^^
The last time Vivek A did an analysis of Mirage-2000 the brochure values were pretty unrealistic.

On the other note, former ADA head Balaji was an ex-naval officer--Commodore.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 06:35

ramana wrote:Sudarshan was shut down for non-performance.

Oops. My bad. Wiki Chacha says that ADE is developing a NG-LGB with a range of 50 km, as compared to Sudarshan's 9 km range.

ramana wrote:What is the Astra Mk2?

Follow on to the Astra BVRAAM. It will be India's Meteor. 150 km range in head on chase.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Nov 2017 06:47

ramana wrote:Great news all around on the Tejas.

JayS, Indranil, and VivekK,

Can we compare the LCA to the Mirage 2000 please?

Thanks,

ramana

Just from memory. ..Tejas mk1 is very good and better in some respects but there is a big difference in payload capacity. ...6500kg vs 3500kg

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2017 06:48

For the price IAF can have two Tejas for the price of one Mirage 2000!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Nov 2017 06:52

Could be but that's not the point. you had simply asked for a comparison and I gave you a data point

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2017 07:12

I know. Just Kidding.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2017 07:30

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Sudarshan was shut down for non-performance.

Oops. My bad. Wiki Chacha says that ADE is developing a NG-LGB with a range of 50 km, as compared to Sudarshan's 9 km range.

...

I thought the Sudarshan/NG-LGB were discarded in favor of 30-km 500kg PG-HSLD and its 100-km winged-version.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2017 07:34

Cain Marko wrote:
ramana wrote:Great news all around on the Tejas.

JayS, Indranil, and VivekK,

Can we compare the LCA to the Mirage 2000 please?

Thanks,

ramana

Just from memory. ..Tejas mk1 is very good and better in some respects but there is a big difference in payload capacity. ...6500kg vs 3500kg

Wiki has this for Mirage-2000:

Code: Select all

Range          1,550km
Ferry Range     3,335km

How can that be real?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Nov 2017 07:37

Vivek K wrote:At its peak IAF probably flew 800 - 1200 Mig-21 aircraft. .

I have been following the IAF for 50 plus years. I have never come across this figure. Ever. Even the entire IAF has never had so many fighters at any given time
http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/maharash ... useum.html
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's factory, HAL Ozhar has manufactured nearly 600 MiG-21s of FL, M and Bis variants over the years.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Nov 2017 08:12

srai wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Just from memory. ..Tejas mk1 is very good and better in some respects but there is a big difference in payload capacity. ...6500kg vs 3500kg

Wiki has this for Mirage-2000:

Code: Select all

Range          1,550km
Ferry Range     3,335km

How can that be real?

2000 liter efts + 1700 liter cft

]http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mirage/attachment/mirage3/

But the C version is supposed to manage the same with 2x 1700 liters and 1 x 1300. 2000 lts were cleared for -5, so frame could be higher. ..via fas.org

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2017 08:30

^^^
Can anyone do a fuel consumption rate Mirage-2000 and LCA Mk.1? Let's see if the Mirage-2000 with M53 can indeed have those ranges with full-load of external tanks, what would the LCA's range be with F-404?

Why is the LCA Mk.1 range quoted as 300km while the Mirage-2000 as 1500km? Let's do the math.
Last edited by srai on 29 Nov 2017 08:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2017 08:32

on any DPSA mission the rafales and mirages are always seen with 2 huge drop tanks or sometimes even 3 and then they need tanker support. seen in libya for sure.

for their airframe size the french use the largest drop tanks one can find. to give the devils their due they have supersonic qualified most of these big drop tanks too, albeit I doubt they could haul M1.8 with these at low level..probably none but a Foxhound could ? :twisted:

a useful payload of just 2 bombs
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePic ... en_vol.jpg

rafale a bit more respectable with 6 aasm or 4 lgb
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-co ... 423_Si.jpg

but these are zero threat missions, in contested airspace they will need dedicated escorts or else dump the bombs and tanks and turn into the fight with a bare 2 AAM ... probably they will use the famous french "discreteness" of the spectra and turn tail well before that happens :D

the F15/Su30/Mig31BM sized birds have the advantage of
- large radar aperture
- large internal fuel - combat radius of perhaps 750km with a payload of 6 AAM , 0 drop tanks, 4 bombs
- 2 seater is not a compromise on fuel or avionics being large fighters
- enough AAMs not to need dedicated escorts but fight their way in and out if needed
- plenty of fuel for sustained supersonic when running out, while those who use drop tanks will find that limiting (dropping tanks means less drag but less fuel reserve also)

I would call the rafale a F-16-MKI and no more. it cannot begin to address the speed, range and payload advantages of the above trio....at best it can use its sensors to lie low and avoid a fight like a cerval cat vs a prowling leopard.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Nov 2017 09:12

srai wrote:^^^
Why is the LCA Mk.1 range quoted as 300km while the Mirage-2000 as 1500km? Let's do the math.

This is like saying:
My height is 172 but most humans are under 66 so I am the tallest man in the world


The word range means nothing unless the following information is specified
1. Is it internal fuel only?
3. How much external fuel is being carried?
3. Is it a combat sortie, if so is it hi-hi-hi, or hi-lo-hi, or lo-lo-hi etc
4. Is it a ferry flight
5. Are combat radius and "range" being mixed up deliberately or out of stupidity

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2017 09:13

^^ there is a lot of deliberate malice if the 'sources' are service officers or well drilled sales reps. they know all the above. infact some product managers in my exp know more of the spec sheet than the developers who may know some parts really well but not the full customer facing set of features on the spec sheet

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Nov 2017 09:19

Singha wrote:^^ there is a lot of deliberate malice if the 'sources' are service officers or well drilled sales reps. they know all the above. infact some product managers in my exp know more of the spec sheet than the developers who may know some parts really well but not the full customer facing set of features on the spec sheet

Agreed. What surprises me is that they are now living in the past. There are enough people to call them out now and communication is also fast. It seems like these people have tried to "pull a fast one" expecting that they will not get caught out - but they will get caught with their pants down. I guess that is why all these worthies are anonymous.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 29 Nov 2017 09:46

Maybe the idea was to say something so stupid that it will catch attention. I mean casual observers got it that the figures were plain wrong.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Nov 2017 10:02

deejay wrote:Maybe the idea was to say something so stupid that it will catch attention. I mean casual observers got it that the figures were plain wrong.

:!: Interesting psy ops point

I always thought that this opens the door for exaggerated counter-claims to be made by "unnamed sources" an anonymous third party (like me)

For example if I have built up a reputation and my articles are appearing here and there - I could start introducing fiction like "Sources in the Tejas squadron confirmed that the latest software tweak and minor aerodynamic changes to the pylons have increased the Tejas combat radius to 625 km. This is far in excess of the unrefuelled radius of the F-16. Correspondingly the "ferry range" of the Tejas with full external fuel is now 3500 km. "

I recommend this as a way of making "white noise" in the information available and make detractors start fighting ghosts. Problem is a place like BRF has largely ethical people who may make mistakes out of ignorance but will not talk shit out of malice. The media are aimed exactly at such people. Youtube however is full of exaggeration but no one takes that seriously.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 29 Nov 2017 10:23

I know for sure that if an IAF official lied or falsified facts in an official presentation, he is cooked.

Sources from the IAF, if speaking out of turn to the media can also lose their next rank of revealed. IAF cannot disown what was quoted as long as it cannot verify what and who said it. Catch 22.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2017 10:31

shiv wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Why is the LCA Mk.1 range quoted as 300km while the Mirage-2000 as 1500km? Let's do the math.

This is like saying:
My height is 172 but most humans are under 66 so I am the tallest man in the world


The word range means nothing unless the following information is specified
1. Is it internal fuel only?
3. How much external fuel is being carried?
3. Is it a combat sortie, if so is it hi-hi-hi, or hi-lo-hi, or lo-lo-hi etc
4. Is it a ferry flight
5. Are combat radius and "range" being mixed up deliberately or out of stupidity

That was the whole point :)

HAL in its website states LCA radius of action as 300km whereas Dassault Aviation states best figures for Mirage-2000. See below:

Code: Select all

Loiter time at 150 N.M. from the base at Mach 0.8/25,000 ft (3 external tanks + 6 MICA) ......... 2hr 40 min
Rayon d’action / combat à M 0,8/15 000 ft (6 Mica, external tanks dropped prior to combat) ......... 830 N.M.


So would like to see what would be LCA Mk.1 best figures that can be "promoted". Then get everyone to talk up those figures everywhere.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 29 Nov 2017 10:48

That is why I keep saying HAL needs a marketing team. Marketing folks won't make such errors. They put out the best. In the same HAL link by SRai above, Take off distance is given as 1700 mtrs. I have seen LCA take off in lesser distances.

It makes no sense, since the configuration, temperature, altitude etc are not mentioned.

I would at least qualify, ISA / ISA+20 deg C, Clean Config/02 Drop tanks (750 ltrs each)/ MAUW, etc etc. These kind of figures are amateurish errors in sharing specs unless someone wants to deliberately hide the real deal.

Added later: Again why mention whole numbers like 5.3t, 13.5t - even civil aircraft mention to the last kg - 57386kg, 3792 kgs or best convert to lbs and give out a massive number. Subconsciously the larger number leaves a larger imprint even with discerning minds. Also, world over aviation professionals deal in Nautical miles and feet (even military). Perhaps the numbers could also be given in Nm and feet for the reader. Singapore AF deals in US eqpt, they will benefit if they could see the numbers in lbs, Nm and feet.

If someone here works at HAL, get that page down, correct the numbers and then put it back up. In its present format it is harmful. Also get the page updated. Carry positive reviews, etc. Just the basics but don't let it hang like this.

Fighter aircraft are top of the line products. It is really a world of wolves. The cut throat here is quite often real. HAL will need to stop being a good boy, quiet, in the corner, out of the media glare. There must be blitz, a personality, a larger than life presentation of their own products. If they don't make the good noise, why shall anyone else.


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