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LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Bala Vignesh » 04 Oct 2017 21:14

JayS wrote:OT here, but since the feedback thread is locked in GDF posting here. I would suggest to keep the thread on tight leash a la gyan thread.
This is a involved topic and needs some serious reading/thinking before one should post on it. Else soon we will end up in dissing each and everyone in the system without any real critical commentary on the system.

Second this thought!! The thread, if possible, can also look into the process by which additional manpower and new cells/verticals ( for a lack of a better word) are approved and created in the forces.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 04 Oct 2017 22:18

deejay wrote:
Indranil wrote:Vidur ji,

No "ji" for me please. I will read the policies that you have linked. But, has any money been released for the program to go ahead? No.

I think the point made was that neither IAF nor MOD is holding the order as suggested in your earlier post.

I read the procedure for "Make" and stand corrected. AoN by MoD has been granted. 3 processes done. 6 more to go. Files with MoF. No money on ground yet. Correct?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vidur » 04 Oct 2017 22:24

Total processes are 11 (not inlcuding post contract management). Do read the 2 articles by Amit Cowsish that I linked. Especially the second one.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby enaiel » 04 Oct 2017 22:24

So 83 Mk1A are sanctioned by MoD/IAF, but funds have not yet been approved by MoF? Is there anyway to speed up this approval? I read the links provided by Vidur ji but did not fully understand the MoF approval process :(

The problem is that it will take at least 1 year to develop, test and certify the Mk1A prototype and another 2 years to have suppliers ready to supply parts for 16/24 Mk1A aircraft and another year after that before those 16/24 aircraft will roll off the assembly line. In other words, It will take a minimum of 4 years after MoF approval before Mk1A can start to produced in any meaningful quantity, not considering any other delays that may occur. Imagine all the insults that will be hurled at HAL by members of this forum, forget elsewhere, when that happens!

deejay wrote:
Indranil wrote:Vidur ji,

No "ji" for me please. I will read the policies that you have linked. But, has any money been released for the program to go ahead? No.

I think the point made was that neither IAF nor MOD is holding the order as suggested in your earlier post.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vidur » 04 Oct 2017 22:29

There is CNC stage - contract negotiation. HAL needs to agree to price and is well known to demand their pound of flesh. They have clout as well can certainly push as well. Beyond that I wont be able to comment.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vidur » 04 Oct 2017 22:30

Reposting a part of this post.

C. Current Challenges

1. There is little expertise or interest in defence matters at the policy level. Defence is a long term project and politcial horizons are much shorter term but even if the government of the day wants to formulate a vision he ministry simply does not have the expertise to formulate one. A typical IAS officer comes to the ministry for a 3-4 year deputation and has no grasp of the complex issues he is rqeuired to grapple with. And it is rather unfair to expect him or her to . He has been trained in a different milieu with a different ethos - administering, firefighting, keeping all stakeholders happy, brushing issues under the carpet. What is called for is deep domain expertise, an empathy with national deference and defence personnel and a build and can do attitude. But we are administrators not builders and have grown up in a system that is designed to stop something from happening not to bring about radical change. There is also an institutional disdain for defence issues and the services in the bureaucracy, And even if a rare officer due to sheer personal interest manages to surmount these issues, by the time he or she is up the curve and able to make a difference, they move out. Therefore the biggest challenge getting political will for change and staffing the ministry with the right people.

2. The second challenge is the decision making process and the multiple levels of sanctions required. It would take me days to finish this note if I had to cover it all but I refer you to three data points. Firstly, the previous RM Shri Manohar Parikkar is on record in a TV interview questioning the need for dual MOF approval and saying he has no control on it , second I have referred to the abandoning of the 12th defence plan in para B (6) above. Lastly I refer you General VK Singh's statement of snakes and ladders, a very clear statement of the problem. The process needs a complete revamp.

3. Defence spending needs to go to atleast 3.25% of GDP ideally 3.5% of GDP. It is a waste of time and energy to talk about building a national defence base if there is no budgetary provision for it. And this spending level must be made statutory and sanction must automatically come as per the plan so that MOF cannot turn the tap off on approved projects to balance the annual budget. The 5 year defence plans make sense only if funds are sanctioned like they were for the 5 year plans. What is happening now is that services plan according to the 5 year plan and then project a need, it goes thorugh a tortuous approval process and then it is completely at the mercy of the Finance Ministry. It is better to abandon the whole planning process and save time and resources than to continue with this charade. But it is all not Finance Ministry's fault. They follow the political masters.

4. Addressing the above 3 points are necessary but no sufficient conditions in building a domestic defence industry. Reforming the public sector, making it accountable in a competitive market and building a big private sector industrial base has to follow. A level playing field has to be created for the private sector. A lot of promises have been made to them and many entrepreneurs have come forward and put skin in the game but they have been starved of orders. Projects earmarked for private sector keep getting diverted to the public sector. They will soon loose hope. There are cases where they supply to foreign governments but have failed to navigate our system. Shri Parrikar brought one of these cases to the public domain. There are many more.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Khalsa » 04 Oct 2017 23:35

Indranil wrote:
Khalsa wrote:The video with HAL chief has the HAL chief saying that 5 aircraft with the 45 Squadron.
Is that in error ?
Does he mean 2 Fighter + 1 Trainer with the squardon and 2 with ASTE ?

No. SP1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 are in squadron service already.


Then we know that ASTE already has some LSP which brings it to almost 7 or exactly 7 with IAF.
I am heartened to know this.

Great achievement. Well done HAL and Tejas Team.

Out of curiosity where is SP5 ?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby enaiel » 05 Oct 2017 00:25

Thank you so much for that very informative but at the same time very depressing post. So while neither MoD,IAF,ADA or HAL are blameless in this Tejas saga, they have all finally managed to jump over their respective hurdles in getting Tejas across the finish line, only to be stumped by issues in our defence procurement process that are bigger than all of them.

Vidur wrote:Reposting a part of this post.

C. Current Challenges


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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kakkaji » 05 Oct 2017 02:28

Re. Mk1A, have they selected the AESA radar for it yet. IIRC the tenders were to be opened in April, and Elta, Selex, and Raytheon were in the race.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 05 Oct 2017 03:27

enaiel wrote:So 83 Mk1A are sanctioned by MoD/IAF, but funds have not yet been approved by MoF? Is there anyway to speed up this approval? I read the links provided by Vidur ji but did not fully understand the MoF approval process :(

The problem is that it will take at least 1 year to develop, test and certify the Mk1A prototype and another 2 years to have suppliers ready to supply parts for 16/24 Mk1A aircraft and another year after that before those 16/24 aircraft will roll off the assembly line. In other words, It will take a minimum of 4 years after MoF approval before Mk1A can start to produced in any meaningful quantity, not considering any other delays that may occur. Imagine all the insults that will be hurled at HAL by members of this forum, forget elsewhere, when that happens!

...


The whole Mk1A is heading the way of Arjun MBT Mk.2. R&D and qualification timelines seem underestimated. Production will most probably halt after the 20 or 40 IOC/FOC Mk.1 while waiting for the next 83 Mk1A.

Ideally, this is what should have happened:

--> Mk.1 -> 126
------------------------------> Mk.1A -> 126
5-years
---------------------------------------------------------->Mk.2 -> 126
10-years

It would give enough time for R&D of new variants and get them ready for production, which can begin while older variant is winding down. No stoppage in production.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 05 Oct 2017 04:56

srai wrote:Gagan,

Can you do one of your renderings for LCA production partners like this one of EF?

  • front fuselage -> Dynamatic Technologies Ltd, Bengaluru
  • centre fuselage -> VEM Technologies, Hyderabad
  • rear fuselage -> Alpha Tocol, Bengaluru
  • wings -> Larsen & Toubro, Coimbatore
  • tail fin and rudder -> National Aerospace Laboratory and Tata Advanced Materials Ltd.

Image

Uploaded on the Wikipedia Tejas page
Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2017 05:04

Gagan, that is amazing. Thank you for doing this and thank you to srai for asking you to do this. Should be added as reference in the beginning of every new Tejas thread that is started.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 05 Oct 2017 05:15

Wow!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 05 Oct 2017 06:52

I am slightly modifying it
Some minor spatial errors

Are the air intakes part of the mid section?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 05 Oct 2017 06:54

Wow Gagan!!!
That VEM is amazing for a small company to produce the center fuselage.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby vasu raya » 05 Oct 2017 06:57

HAL is saying that if these Vendors double their production rate then it can scale the LCA production...

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Bala Vignesh » 05 Oct 2017 07:16

Beautiful rendering, Gagan ji!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 05 Oct 2017 09:10

Gagan Sir, take a bow!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2017 09:15

Gagan, I tell ya what
1. Keep your 3-D rendering data to yourself
2. Buy a 3-D printer and churn out accurate toys that can be sold online or in toy sops
3. Better still, send the 3-D files to me so I can personally profit from it

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 05 Oct 2017 09:49

Gagan wrote:...
Uploaded on the Wikipedia Tejas page
Image

Woohoo! Nice one Gagan!

Now we need to disseminate it to rest of the desi media and defense forums.

Minor Note: probably would be good to mention HAL as the final system integrator ;)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 05 Oct 2017 10:08

Hajar Shukriyas everyone!
Cobham, UK, for Radome
Who does the glass cockpit? Samtel provides the MFDs right?

Do we know if the flaps and the lead slats are done separately and by whom? HAL?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 05 Oct 2017 10:09

shiv wrote:Gagan, I tell ya what
1. Keep your 3-D rendering data to yourself
2. Buy a 3-D printer and churn out accurate toys that can be sold online or in toy sops
3. Better still, send the 3-D files to me so I can personally profit from it

nah Hakim ji! Who will buy it?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Bala Vignesh » 05 Oct 2017 10:39

Vivek K wrote:
shiv wrote:Gagan, I tell ya what
1. Keep your 3-D rendering data to yourself
2. Buy a 3-D printer and churn out accurate toys that can be sold online or in toy sops
3. Better still, send the 3-D files to me so I can personally profit from it

nah Hakim ji! Who will buy it?

Sorry about going OT, but there is a good demand for scale models of the Tejas in the scale modeling community!! If one cannot assemble the model at least painting and detailing it can be done.
Also there is a lot of demand for table top souvenir kind of thing for a quality model.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2017 10:42

Vivek K wrote:
shiv wrote:Gagan, I tell ya what
1. Keep your 3-D rendering data to yourself
2. Buy a 3-D printer and churn out accurate toys that can be sold online or in toy sops
3. Better still, send the 3-D files to me so I can personally profit from it

nah Hakim ji! Who will buy it?

Please visit me before looking at available models so I can prescribe a powerful anti-puking agent.

There is huge demand for modelling

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2017 10:44

Gagan wrote:Image


Brilliant. Hajar Pranam for this work and uploading it on wiki.

BTW Gagan saar, don't forget to add "limbo-mirchi" to your LCA 3D model to save it from evil eyes. Ekdam SDRE estyle. :lol:

LCA team has pulled up 70odd tests flights in last one month. And this too in the incessant rain in BLR for weeks. Reminds me of a quote from LOTR:
They run as if the very whips of their masters were behind them!

:mrgreen: I think this is the highest tempo of test flights ever seen.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Pratyush » 05 Oct 2017 11:06

Wet dream alert. The picture posted by gagan is the foundation of a domestic aviation industry. Scaled it is up and accross multiple designs. From AMCA to military airlifters to civilian transports.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 05 Oct 2017 14:26

Gagan wrote:Hajar Shukriyas everyone!
Cobham, UK, for Radome
Who does the glass cockpit? Samtel provides the MFDs right?

Do we know if the flaps and the lead slats are done separately and by whom? HAL?


The one you have done is for the five Tier-1 partners. I think that keeps it nice and concise ... and clean.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2017 15:54

Some stats from the two videos:

total components - 8800
Front fuselage - 1900 components - 3.5mtr - 1.5 months
Centre fuselage - 1300 components - 2.5mtr - ? months
Rear fuselage - 1000 components - 2.5mtr - 2.5 months
Wings - 2000 Components - 7 months
Final assembly time - ??

Total 17 modules outsources to Tier 1/2 suppliers

In addition to already listed companies, Mahindra Aerospace does Air-break assembly.

Total 344 LRUs - 72 supplied by Pvt indian companies, 38 built by DPSUs, Rest all imported (I doubt this, I think a lot of the rest LRUs are made by HAL divisions. Previously we have seen some statistics on this. Close to 200 LRUs are desi IIRC).

35km cables used
30kg RAM coating


Please add if I missed anything

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashthor » 05 Oct 2017 16:42

Antonov An-124 Ruslan and India's LightCombatAircraft Tejas

https://t.co/o4g2Yrys71

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Bharadwaj » 05 Oct 2017 20:14

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 958636.cms

"The Mig 21 and Mig 27 squadrons are going out. To make up for this number, 40 LCAs -- 20 in IOC standard and 20 in FOC standard -- and we will shortly issue an RFP for 83 more LCAs," Dhanoa said.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Oct 2017 20:23

Vivek K wrote:
shiv wrote:Gagan, I tell ya what
1. Keep your 3-D rendering data to yourself
2. Buy a 3-D printer and churn out accurate toys that can be sold online or in toy sops
3. Better still, send the 3-D files to me so I can personally profit from it

nah Hakim ji! Who will buy it?

If priced right, there will be many buyers (yours truly included)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby samirdiw » 05 Oct 2017 20:36

Indranil wrote:What for? Finish production in one year? That is foolishness.


Well from past experience and promises we know that 3+ years means 5 years. With some resource management to utilize the idle time we can:-

1. Truly meet 3 years timeline
2. It will kill SE fighter
3. Prove to IAF that HAL can meet timelines and churn out stuff in mass numbers quickly - Put to rest any further discussion about relevance.
4. Influence IAF to order more numbers
5. Influence further funding for other projects AMCA, maybe even MCA(all desi) can be entertained.

Arent all this worth it for HAL?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby enaiel » 05 Oct 2017 21:00

I'm confused. So MoD/IAF has sanctioned the development of Mk1A (which MoF is yet to provide funding), but not the production of 83 Mk1A? And after production is sanctioned, then MoF will again need to provide funding? And then preparation for production can start. And then 4 years later HAL will be able to produce Mk1A in meaningful numbers? Do I have it right? If so, this is madness!

Bharadwaj wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-to-reach-full-squadron-strength-by-2032-air-chief/articleshow/60958636.cms

"The Mig 21 and Mig 27 squadrons are going out. To make up for this number, 40 LCAs -- 20 in IOC standard and 20 in FOC standard -- and we will shortly issue an RFP for 83 more LCAs," Dhanoa said.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srin » 05 Oct 2017 21:27

Given that there is only one vendor to build LCA, and that vendor is also MoD run, what's really the point in issuing an RFP ?
I don't believe I'll ever understand the workings of the MoD !

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2017 21:31

samirdiw wrote:
Indranil wrote:What for? Finish production in one year? That is foolishness.


Well from past experience and promises we know that 3+ years means 5 years. With some resource management to utilize the idle time we can:-

1. Truly meet 3 years timeline
2. It will kill SE fighter
3. Prove to IAF that HAL can meet timelines and churn out stuff in mass numbers quickly - Put to rest any further discussion about relevance.
4. Influence IAF to order more numbers
5. Influence further funding for other projects AMCA, maybe even MCA(all desi) can be entertained.

Arent all this worth it for HAL?


HAL is not the only player in this. There are associated cost escalations with this. Unless IAF orders more LCA the cost of setting up of MFG will be amortized over only these small numbers, inevitably driving the unit cost up. Its a decision that IAF, MOD and HAL need to take together. They need to agree on accepting the negatives arising out of such decisions. Its doable, but only when all the stake-holders agree. Basically GOI has to agree to provide additional funds over and above the regular budget to absorb the hike in price. Then IAF would not have any issue I would say. Nor would HAL management would care about their balance sheet. But would Jet lee agree to this..? Deficit this year is already gone beyond targeted value. With election year coming, I don't expect anything from next budget on this front.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 05 Oct 2017 23:52

Final edit:

Image
Last edited by Gagan on 06 Oct 2017 00:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 05 Oct 2017 23:57

srin wrote:Given that there is only one vendor to build LCA, and that vendor is also MoD run, what's really the point in issuing an RFP ?
I don't believe I'll ever understand the workings of the MoD !

Due process.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Oct 2017 00:02

Vidur wrote:There is CNC stage - contract negotiation. HAL needs to agree to price and is well known to demand their pound of flesh. They have clout as well can certainly push as well. Beyond that I wont be able to comment.


Vidur Ji:

I am confused :-?

HAL is a company owned by the Govt of India. So, in buying from HAL, the money will only move from one pocket of GoI to another. So, why haggle so much with HAL and delay the production?

Being a GoI-owned company, all of HAL's accounts can be examined by GoI auditors and you can arrive at a cost + reasonable profit amount, instead of MoD haggling with HAL on price. So, why the whole RFP and contract-negotiation Tamasha?

'Jaldi sey order karo Saaheb. Ab der kya baat ki hai'?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby enaiel » 06 Oct 2017 00:02

So for all intents and purposes, Indranil was right. Only 40 Tejas Mk1 have actually been ordered. MoD/IAF have yet to order 83 Tejas Mk1A. Very depressing.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rishi_Tri » 06 Oct 2017 00:03

ArjunPandit wrote:
Vivek K wrote:nah Hakim ji! Who will buy it?

If priced right, there will be many buyers (yours truly included)


Absolutely. Whatever scale models were there at AI'17 of Tejas were not even a patch on projects that school students would do.


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