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LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Zynda
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Zynda » 06 Oct 2017 20:11

I found a decent LCA 3D model here for $8. The cockpit glass isn't transparent. The 3d model format is Maya 2014/Mental Ray (not familiar with the file format).

https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/lc ... obj/781263

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Karan M » 07 Oct 2017 06:02

Vidur wrote:
Karan M wrote:And iterate back and forth.



Oh, we are very good at iterations. Its called a file noting. There are 11 steps in procurement and 10 drops of ink at any stage by event a Under secretary can set back a nationally critical project by years if not decades. Even the honble judicary helps. They were kind enough to set back MAFI by 3 years on the basis of a foreign company's plea.


I can only imagine the frustration of the folks who are trying to do a good efficient task and are subject to such paper borne harassment by others.
Perhaps a way out is to put a firm deadline on all these tasks which is very strictly monitored & frivolous ink droppers should be firmly censured or shunted out.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Karan M » 07 Oct 2017 06:03

Vidur wrote:Am going to take a break for a few days. Happy Diwali to all of you.


Wish you the same. Thank you for sharing your real experiences regarding the whole process stuff.

Karan M
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Karan M » 07 Oct 2017 06:10

Back on topic, the LCA will provide a huge combat boost to the IAF and I hope the IAF is practical enough to understand it and order more aircraft. The Golden Arrows at Kargil under Dhanoa sir, have their record on BR. It makes for interesting reading. Note, the average strike payload per aircraft was 2x bombs. This without any LDP assisted accuracy or radar mapping. Rest of the pylons would have been for fuel or self protection missiles.

Now, with the LCA, it has seven pylons + LDP. This means upto 4 bombs + 2 AAMs + centerline fuel tank + LDP, this itself is fully double the strike potential of the MiG-21 including the Bisons, and with far better accuracy and all-weather sensors, plus the capability to operate at high-altitudes (the LCA is one of the few aircraft capable of operating @ Leh)

Further, it is incredibly easy to fly, has a first class control system and autopilot.
We would be incredibly short sighted not to understand the potential of this platform.

The IAF needs to order more LCAs.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 07 Oct 2017 06:17

^^^

For a limited budget that is available, large quantities of cheap LCA makes the most sense to get to that magic 42 squadron number.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2017 08:01


Production partners of LCA Tejas. Final assembly: HAL, Bengaluru. Credit: Gagan, Bharat Rakshak 8)
https://twitter.com/TAPTEA/status/915798415048626176

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby tsarkar » 08 Oct 2017 10:32

Sintilating display of Tejas at Air Force Day by CO 45 Sq, including a very low speed high alpha flyby in front of the entire leadership & audience.

This is what Tejas needs to do...go to every airbase across India and give the pilots and engineers a first hand touch, look & feel of its capabilities.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby chetak » 08 Oct 2017 12:29

Rakesh wrote:

Production partners of LCA Tejas. Final assembly: HAL, Bengaluru. Credit: Gagan, Bharat Rakshak 8)
https://twitter.com/TAPTEA/status/915798415048626176


water mark it before someone steals it without credit. :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 08 Oct 2017 13:11

Can’t watermark it because it is uploaded on wikipedia
They don’t allow watermarks

Even the Arihant sketches were used all over the world, I saw it being used in a brazilian website even!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby chetak » 08 Oct 2017 13:17

Gagan wrote:Can’t watermark it because it is uploaded on wikipedia
They don’t allow watermarks

Even the Arihant sketches were used all over the world, I saw it being used in a brazilian website even!


Then at least, watermark the twitter one.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 08 Oct 2017 13:30

It wasn’t uploaded by me on twitter
The uploader did attribute it to me though

It is ok chetak ji, the reward was making it and everyone appreciating the work
My 2 naya paisa worth contribution

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 08 Oct 2017 13:46

tsarkar wrote:Sintilating display of Tejas at Air Force Day by CO 45 Sq, including a very low speed high alpha flyby in front of the entire leadership & audience.

Slow speed - 125 kt as per announcer. The should show that off by flying in formation with a basic trainer like Pilatus

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Pratyush » 08 Oct 2017 14:42

shiv wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Sintilating display of Tejas at Air Force Day by CO 45 Sq, including a very low speed high alpha flyby in front of the entire leadership & audience.

Slow speed - 125 kt as per announcer. The should show that off by flying in formation with a basic trainer like Pilatus



This should end any debate on the suitability of tejas for the IAF.

It is a top class plane for us.

Most importantly, it is ours.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 08 Oct 2017 21:25

ramana wrote:Gagan, Try to get a 3D printer at local library and make a model.


I can get it done in our shop :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby suryag » 08 Oct 2017 21:37

Gurus a better video from the dress rehearsal, far better than today's video. Can Gurus comment how it stacks up against the ones seen during AI2016?

Tejas dress rehearsal Air Force day 2017

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 08 Oct 2017 21:46

I have been critical of IAF's support for Tejas over the years. This year though Tejas was literally the center of the display. Hakeem, the test team are regularly flying Tejas slower than 115kN these days. And that is at 24 degree AoA.



The camera work is abysmal though. And I wish they change the "Jai ho" background music. I love that song, but it is not apt for an aerial display.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby suryag » 08 Oct 2017 22:04

IR sir watched the dress rehearsal video i posted above(it is in clearer skies) ? what is left is HAL delivering fast SP-5/7/8 this year. I am waiting to see a pic of 9 SP planes on the tarmac and slugging it out at TACDE and being stationed in frontline bases like Jaisalmer. Going by the finesse in the display i believe the tejas squadron has been practising enough and honing their techniques to exploit the amazing flying abilities of the machine.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 08 Oct 2017 22:31

Suryag, it is shot by a more competent person whose goal is to capture the aircraft rather than people pointing at the aircraft and the aircraft intermittently.

SP 5,7,8 should happen by year end. You saw 7 is almost complete. 8 is from the other line. Delivering an aircraft is a process beyond just manufacturing it. That process is also getting streamlined.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Oct 2017 23:02

Dileep wrote:
ramana wrote:Gagan, Try to get a 3D printer at local library and make a model.


I can get it done in our shop :)

perhaps BRF logo would be a good to have on it too :), after all many of us spend more time here than listening to SHQs

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2017 02:43

Can anyone do a STR calculation of the LCA from the video? It seems high matching Ahuja's analysis.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2017 03:30

I am unable to understand the recent statements put out by HAL,etc. that "83" LCAs will be built by 2020.Trawling
through various reports I came across one which said that the Hawk facility would build LCAs.Good thinking but we just have two years left,OK 3 also counting 2020,but that requires around 24 /yr.!It is going to be a Herculean effort to do so as all other reports talk of a prod. rate of only 16.At this exalted rate ,perhaps more accurate ,we will be approx 30-40 aircraft short of the "83"touted.Can some worthy from HAL explain how this high fig. can be achieved or is it yet another tall tale about the LCA?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 09 Oct 2017 03:42

Philip wrote:I am unable to understand the recent statements put out by HAL,etc. that "83" LCAs will be built by 2020.Trawling
through various reports I came across one which said that the Hawk facility would build LCAs.Good thinking but we just have two years left,OK 3 also counting 2020,but that requires around 24 /yr.!It is going to be a Herculean effort to do so as all other reports talk of a prod. rate of only 16.At this exalted rate ,perhaps more accurate ,we will be approx 30-40 aircraft short of the "83"touted.Can some worthy from HAL explain how this high fig. can be achieved or is it yet another tall tale about the LCA?

Where did you read those garbage. I am praying for Mk1A production to start from 2019. And for that, many stars have to align. MK1A prototype can be started only after funds are sanctioned and a LSP can be made free for HAL. That's not going to happen untill FOC as all LSPs are required for testing till then.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Viv S » 09 Oct 2017 04:00

Indranil wrote:Where did you read those garbage. I am praying for Mk1A production to start from 2019. And for that many stars have to align. MK1A prototype can be started only after funds are sanctioned and a LSP can be made free for HAL. That's not going to happen untill FOC as all LSPs are required for testing till then.

Its just the usual. HAL chief says - production capacity can be raised to 24/yr to allow the 83 Mk1As to be delivered within ~3 years. People hear - Tejas deliveries to be complete within 3 years i.e. by 2020.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 09 Oct 2017 04:54

Indranil wrote:... I am praying for Mk1A production to start from 2019. And for that many stars have to align. MK1A prototype can be started only after funds are sanctioned and a LSP can be made free for HAL. That's not going to happen untill FOC as all LSPs are required for testing till then.


That is what I call a setup for failure!

Instead of ordering a viable production quantities of LCA Mk.1, they are jumping to the next "better" version after just 40 aircraft. Production will finally hit 16/year for Mk.1 and then they will have to switch to a new variant. All this knowing that approval bureaucracy (11-steps), R&D, qualification and production setup take a load of time to accomplish.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 09 Oct 2017 06:27

Raha sir did say that IAF won't let the assembly line go dry. Let's see.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 09 Oct 2017 07:31

Indranil wrote:Raha sir did say that IAF won't let the assembly line go dry. Let's see.

Words are one thing but the current order structure and plan creates unnecessary uncertainty. Hopefully, when Raha sir said that he also factored in lead times (of 3-4 years in Indian context) required for production.

Why couldn't it just have been 83 Mk.1 FOC after all Raha sir also did say "we just want the LCA [in whichever variant]"? Then these could be followed by Mk.1A few years later. After than, Mk.2.

All I can see at this point is there will be delays with the whole Mk.1A (AESA radar, integrated Jammer, internal rearrangement (some say a lot), and maybe some weight reduction). I doubt HAL can pull it off within 2-years given how long integration and qualifications are taking currently. On top of that "official" sanctioning process for Mk.1A hasn't yet completed, and as you have pointed out LSP air-frames for R&D will not be available until FOC sometime next year.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Pratyush » 09 Oct 2017 07:42

Having watched the Tejas display on u tube. Am looking forward to some one say we need imports. As the Tejas had to land immediately after the display thereby proving just how short ranged the jet really is.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 09 Oct 2017 07:51

Well a Mark 1 A has to be demonstrated to the IAF before it can be ordered no?
There is no Mk1A right now. Final components are still under testing.

Once it is done, the orders should follow.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2017 07:52

suryag wrote:Gurus a better video from the dress rehearsal, far better than today's video. Can Gurus comment how it stacks up against the ones seen during AI2016?

Tejas dress rehearsal Air Force day 2017

Stop watching all Tejas videos and stick to the Bahrain display where the pilot was intent to showing capability rather than "simbly flying". All else is timepass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NRNCVQRJWs

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 09 Oct 2017 08:18

Gagan wrote:Well a Mark 1 A has to be demonstrated to the IAF before it can be ordered no?
There is no Mk1A right now. Final components are still under testing.

Once it is done, the orders should follow.

Yes, that is the very problem being pointed out. Lead times (3-5 years) doesn't seem to be factored in for Mk1A, which is supposed to go into production in 2019. Project hasn't even begun "officially" and they are supposed to R&D, flight test/certify and setup production (@16/year) within the next two years. How is that possible?

40 Mk1 production will end in 2019.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SiddharthS » 09 Oct 2017 17:15

It seems IAF's thirst for the imported SE fighter has been quenched, DM seems to not have resisted the demands ,or even worse, assured the imports. Fear of Tejas completely taking over SE category ,it seems, has been subsided, hence the positive attitude towards an aircraft,they know, that would not pull the plug on the import cycle.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby sudeepj » 09 Oct 2017 21:15

shiv wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Sintilating display of Tejas at Air Force Day by CO 45 Sq, including a very low speed high alpha flyby in front of the entire leadership & audience.

Slow speed - 125 kt as per announcer. The should show that off by flying in formation with a basic trainer like Pilatus


Out of plane :mrgreen: curiosity, what is special about the very low speed? What areas of great performance does it indicate for the plane?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby tsarkar » 09 Oct 2017 22:07

sudeepj wrote:
shiv wrote:Slow speed - 125 kt as per announcer. The should show that off by flying in formation with a basic trainer like Pilatus
Out of plane :mrgreen: curiosity, what is special about the very low speed? What areas of great performance does it indicate for the plane?

It can be used in certain manoeuvres to force your opponent to overshoot and get behind. Classic example of the manoeuvre is the movie Topgun where Tom Cruise slows and stops mid air forcing his opponent to overshoot and gets opponent in his sights. There is this photo somewhere of two Mirage 2000 flying high alpha in formation with a HPT-32 Deepak.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ShauryaT » 09 Oct 2017 22:25

^Also useful for CAS?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2017 22:50

sudeepj wrote:
shiv wrote:Slow speed - 125 kt as per announcer. The should show that off by flying in formation with a basic trainer like Pilatus


Out of plane :mrgreen: curiosity, what is special about the very low speed? What areas of great performance does it indicate for the plane?


Landing speeds are lower. Therefore landing distance, wear and tear on brakes and tyres and runway length required for landing. Also stalling occurs at lower speeds which is always better than stalling at higher speeds. Turn rates are higher
Last edited by shiv on 09 Oct 2017 22:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2017 22:53

tsarkar wrote: There is this photo somewhere of two Mirage 2000 flying high alpha in formation with a HPT-32 Deepak.

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctuY5LxN_18

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2017 22:54

Seems correct.seems odd LCA seems to be going the Arjun way while the meat seems to be going for F16 or Gripen

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2017 00:10

ArjunPandit wrote:
Dileep wrote:
I can get it done in our shop :)

perhaps BRF logo would be a good to have on it too :), after all many of us spend more time here than listening to SHQs



No. What have we done for the LCA?

IAF roundel would be nice and have Dileep present it to 45 Squadron as memento from fans.

Dileep do you want to contact Gagan for rendering files for the 3D or you want to start from scratch?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Oct 2017 05:07

It's b not just what we've done, but what we're doing.... Promoting the cause of lca

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 10 Oct 2017 05:48

tsarkar wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Out of plane :mrgreen: curiosity, what is special about the very low speed? What areas of great performance does it indicate for the plane?

It can be used in certain manoeuvres to force your opponent to overshoot and get behind. Classic example of the manoeuvre is the movie Topgun where Tom Cruise slows and stops mid air forcing his opponent to overshoot and gets opponent in his sights.

The first sentence is true. It showcases the capability of the aircraft to maintain sustained low speed flight. In a turning flight it means shorter turning radius. So you will be on the "inside".

The maneouvre in Top Gun is not a good example though. That just shows the capability of the aircraft to pitch up instantaneously to bleed off speed (while letting go off the thrust). The slow speed pass is much more involved. By the way, Tejas would be great at the maneouvre.

The magic is to go that slow (110-115 knots) with the delta and no tail plane. To give you a feeling of how difficult it is, the Gripen floats its canards in this regime. Essentially, this makes the canard generate 0 lift, pushing the center of pressure back. Essentially, it trades maneuverability to go this slow. ADA is going hardcore, i.e. without changing the static margin. That takes some doing because Tejas has one of the highest static margins of any combat aircraft. But from what I hear, they might get there, or very close.

They need another stab at it to derive the best out of this platform. Mk2 will be much better in every aspect. I do not have an iota of doubt in my mind regarding that.


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