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LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Zynda » 11 Oct 2017 17:35

JayS wrote:
tsarkar wrote:More than under-funding, under-staffing is a more serious issue.

Due to GoI freeze on staffing - that should've been directed to bloated department & ministries - there is an acute shortage of manpower across projects. Today ADA is focussed on Mk1 FOC, so not much work has happened (jointly with HAL AR&DC) for Mk1A. Even less work has happened for Mk2. One of the reasons I was told Navy withdrew its support for Tejas Navy Mk2 is because of lot of design work to achieve desired outcomes is unfinished.

Mk1 FOC, MK1A, Mk2 IAF, Mk2 Navy, Trainers....these require multiple teams.

Not expanding ADA - and overall DRDO - staffing for the sake of financial austerity is another sense of misdirected priorities.


Agreed, I have pointed out this issue myself many times. ADA has only about 700 scientists working. A lot of whom are into program management. Any organization such as this should have at least 3x highly qualifies man-power.

Even for DRDO, only about 7000 scientists are on staff. As I have mentioned multiple times on BRF, in 2014 DRDO said they have 2000+ unfilled posts. I was very hopeful that Modi government would lift ban on DRDO placements. But it never happened. GOI tried to use an approach which is more suitable for lethargic babus in Zilla Parishad offices than highly qualified white-collar workforce. It was never going to work. No real structural changes have happened in past three years which will empower DRDO for tomorrow's projects.

Another issue I have with our RnD establishment's recruitment policies in hiring of temporary workers at peanuts as salary and making them work on menial jobs only. And gross absence of lateral placements. This way they become a closed echo-chamber kind of place with not much new ideas or ways of working being introduced nor they can retain talent properly. They hire a guy at 15k salary, spend time to train him, use him for 2 years and then fire. How will they even get any decent quality of people in that amount..? Even some good folks who go there due to lack of jobs elsewhere are let go in a year or to. This is a significant erosion of manpower. There is neither quality input nor any consolidation of whatever good that comes in. Only a very small percentage would get absorbed.

But lets not forget, recruitment comes with funding. Even now DRDO's demand for funds is 20k Cr while GOI only provided 15k Cr and this is almost 50% increase in budget compared to 3yrs ago. Look at the example of CSIR. Modi government left them to fend for themselves. Now CSIR has declared financial emergency. They have literally no money left for work after paying salaries. I think next year they will not be able to pay even salaries. And CSIR is our most premier research organization with overwhelming majority of total national research output coming from CSIR. I simply don't understand what is Modi government thinking while doing all this non-sense. They seems totally clueless on what needs to be done. My biggest contention with Modi government is that they neither seems to know how to handle technology areas (particularly the long term things) nor they are willing to delegate it to people who could do it. We can't wait until 2019 elections for every big change.

Honestly man...many of us expected a big turn around in the above aspects with a more nationalistic administration at helm. What a big let down it has been so far.

If people who can influence policy decisions are reading the above post, please please do convey the above concerns to PMO & MoD etc.

Most of the pain points wrt to domestic R&D have been beautifully articulated.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2017 19:10

It is my belief that no amount of fiddling from the government is going to change things. Ultimately the private sector has to get the machinery and manpower that only the PSUs have now. The government needs to spend on madarsa reform, reservation, farmer loans, roads etc and is NOT going to pay attention to more research in defence labs.

How to get the private sector interested? They have to make profits. Collaboration with foreign companies where both the Indian private company and the foreign company profit is the only way forward. I believe most of us are ignorant of the piss poor distribution of high tech machinery and skill in the Indian private sector and spend our time lamenting that the public sector should do this that or the other. Expect modest gains in HALs small turbines - but that aside fuggetabaht massive tech advanced like AMCA, UCAV Aura etc. these are all pipe dreams. We need a paradigm gear shift - and comparing with China and weeping is of no use if we are simply going to appeal to gormint.

Sometimes I think that our own arguments here are like right hand trying to grope a lady's bottom while left hand is trying to stop the right hand. Demanding that PSUs like HAL be allowed to continue with their level of (in)efficiency and subsidy and saying "Foreign companies will swallow us up" - may be true but in 70 years nothing has been done to spread high tech industry into private sector other than drugs (pharma) and automobiles.

Compare with Germany (Krupp/Dornier), France (Dassault), UK (RR, AV Roe, Bristol), USA (Lockheed, Sikorsky Boeing, GE) - all started as private companies. Even China now has competing teams (private) making UAVs. We are trying to squeeze more out of a fully squeezed out PSU lemon. Russia whom we have failed to copy had competing designers like Mikoyan and Sukhoi. Balls to PSU. Need to move on. JMT

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SiddharthS » 11 Oct 2017 20:08

How dare DRDO ask money for the R%D ,when thousands of crore are being put to good use in Ayush ministry and ad budget of GOI

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2017 20:32

SiddharthS wrote:How dare DRDO ask money for the R%D ,when thousands of crore are being put to good use in Ayush ministry and ad budget of GOI

Governments in Europe and the USA did not establish arms or aircraft factories - but when the governments fought wars private companies profited and expanded and found their feet. The USSR tried government spending on arms - and did well for a while but gradually it petered out.

The Indian government has its fingers in too many pies to be able to spend on arms development. I think Modi is spot on in trying to make it lucrative for foreign and Indian private players to gain from a huge Indian (and potential arms export) market.

For too long we have tolerated the most ridiculous bullshit where we train young engineers who join PSUs - get frustrated and go abroad. Let us now find places for them in our own private industry. The government can bring excellence by fostering it and then hiving off to private entities. Let me speak of medical education - I went to what remains a "top" college - government run with a fee of Rs 125 per annum. In those days we used to mock private donation colleges. But the government tolerated them and those colleges have now joined the top ranks. My classmates and peers became profs and heads of dept in some of those private colleges and took them to great heights in some cases using their basic subsidized PSU medical education. I always found it ironic that one does not need to go abroad to get a good post-graduate medical education but for engineers the opportunities are zero. There is something seriously sick about Indian high technology. It is not big enough. It must be expanded.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Oct 2017 20:47

shiv sir, Indian IT industry is there for last 20 years, negligible govt intervention, they havent been able to look beyond the body shopping model, how many successful indian products are there today in global market. Indian auto industry is also there for quite sometime fuelled by Indian markets. Again I dont know much about engines, automobiles, but I havent heard any successful export auto story of the scale of say Honda, Hyundai.
My rant (please feel free to ignore this perception based and research less rant) is that barring one or two exceptions, indian companies are more of status quoist or evolutionaries rather than embracing revolutionary changes. Majority of IT companies continue to struggle because their leadership completely failed to see the age of commoditization of AI, automation and analytics. We all are part of it to some extent.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2017 20:53

ArjunPandit wrote:shiv sir, Indian IT industry is there for last 20 years, negligible govt intervention, they havent been able to look beyond the body shopping model, how many successful indian products are there today in global market. Indian auto industry is also there for quite sometime fuelled by Indian markets. Again I dont know much about engines, automobiles, but I havent heard any successful export auto story of the scale of say Honda, Hyundai.

Actually Indian auto companies are exporting quite a lot - and they do it with parts that are sometimes sourced from Indian factories and sometimes from other countries . This is the industrial model that exists everywhere. You know the Chinese made a copy of the Bajaj Pulsar?

But when the government alone tries something - we have had very little progress in 70 years. I was a young man in the UK when Malaysian Chinese mocked India for not having any Indian designed cars . They had the Proton back then. 30 years later - look where we are. In fact not 30 years. Only 20 years - our automobile revolution started around 1996-1998.

Private industry need foreign investment and collaboration and a market that will buy it. I am sure that can be replicated with aircraft

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Zynda » 11 Oct 2017 20:59

Shiv, I still think an Airbus and/or Embraer business model is good one to emulate i.e. run the enterprise like a private sector one. Have autonomy on hiring resources, commercial/defence programs which will increase the profits of the company etc., but let the state have a small stake, especially when it comes to finance management. Initially the state needs to flush in funds for the private enterprise to get on their feet until the enterprise has the ability to sustain itself. I need to go & review a post in Civil Aviation thread but I made one regarding Airbus involved in a EU venture about research in to airfoil shapes which will enable laminar flow on wings. IIRC, although the research is being conducted by Airbus in collaboration with various academic & tier-2/3 vendors, I think the majority of funding comes from different EU states. Point being...for cutting-edge R&D where financial profits are not tangible, states still need to support financially many of the programs.

I know that is perhaps one of the key objectives of MII but I feel that it is a shame to let go of existing knowledge & capital infrastructure, experience etc. that exists in DRDO/HAL/CSIR labs in expense of MII. I honestly don't have answers to the question about feasibility of converting the before mentioned Govt. entities in to semi-ones like Airbus etc. But if they serious about reforms of indigenous MIC, that would be one of the possibilities I would be looking at.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Oct 2017 21:01

Thanks shiv saar,
The aircraft market is right here right now with the govt industry ready with a top class plane. Can't the private industry take this plane and make/market for indian and global requirements. Would assume there will be a huge market for Kaveri based tejast

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby pandyan » 11 Oct 2017 21:09

And competition Shiv saar. Private monopoly would take the country for a ride.

Apparently tier 2/3 suppliers have better profit margins than tier 1 supplier in aero industry

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rishi_Tri » 11 Oct 2017 21:30

Agree and Don't Agree with Zynda, Shiv, SiddharthS.

Firmly believe that one motivated person can do the job of 1000 people. A gold medalist is worth 100 top ten guys. Give them freedom and they shall create a storm. Of course we need the top ten guys too (people such as me :)) for gadha mazuri.

Funds are absolutely no problem with this government. And when the PM himself says.. Na Khaunga Na Khane Dunga .. substantially more becomes available on the ground, though some pockets shall still be warm. But honestly expected better things on funds allocation and am a Modi supporter.

We slowly have a parallel system coming up. TASL, Mahindra Aerospace, who ever builds the single fighter (nazar lage iss single fighter ko), and countless smaller manufacturers who are buzzing around LCA or have buzzed around other programs. You run faster when you have a pace setter or competitor or fellow runner.

In addition, enough people have come back to India to set up enterprises in truly high tech spaces. They are struggling without much govt support but in true daredevil style continue to plough through.

The way I see it, if LCA, Arjun, ATAGS, are successfully inducted it shall mean 100s of billions lost for foreign manufacturers. And they are already suffering. I am talking about Dhruv (competing systems), Akash (Patriot systems), PSLV / GSLV (Ariancespace), Various indigenous ships / boats (Northrop, Russians, Koreans etc). Just imagine what could happen when Astra, Nirbhay, Helina, FICV etc go through their dev cycles. Not to talk about impending induction of LCH which means no Roivalk or Tiger or Kamovs.

What we are seeing now is a battle for ages. National governments are on notice because of job losses. Example - India ordered Rafales and they were followed by other orders. With the result that Dassault kept their jobs intact whereas BAE is firing 2000 people as they don't have enough orders for Typhoons.

This is a conversation that Modi, Macron, May, Putin, Trump are having with each other and Modi being in enviable position of calling the shots.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2017 21:49

pandyan wrote: Private monopoly would take the country for a ride.

This sounds eerily like Indira Gandhi. If you look at the private industries that have come up in India and are "shining" none has a monopoly. The only monopoly that pulls us down is the government monopoly of defence PSUs. And just like complex life forms have evolved after millions of years - decades of PSU monopoly has given them tech advantages that no private industry can match. That tech is on offer to private industry but they can't use it unless their products are bought by the forces the way the PSUs have guaranteed sales.

Private industry in defence can be "jump started" by foreign collaboration. To that extent I think single engine deal should be useful. And PSUs - surely they too could do with competition. And attrition. If AMCA is going to be another saga like Tejas we had better nip it in the bud and start something new. Countries like Iran and KSA are all joining the military manufacturing bandwagon and we are still limping and hoping PSUs will deliver magic the way Angelina Jolie was supposed to come running to me back then.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby enaiel » 11 Oct 2017 22:06

While it is an interesting idea, I have a few questions. Would the private industry be okay with trickle funding and piecemeal orders? Would the SE fighter line be able to produce F-16s for the same amount of money that HAL was given to produce Tejas? Would Dassault team up with a private company to build a stealth UCAV for 80 crores (and no orders) when Neuron was launched with a budget of 400 million Euro? I am assuming the answer to all of these to be a resounding "No".

So if GoI needs to pay truckloads of money with confirmed orders to private industry to get them to participate, why can't the same be done for PSUs? I am genuinely asking.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Oct 2017 22:06

ArjunPandit wrote:shiv sir, Indian IT industry is there for last 20 years, negligible govt intervention, they havent been able to look beyond the body shopping model, how many successful indian products are there today in global market.


Wrong. There are several hundred Indian SaaS startup (Product companies) that compete in international markets. Many are world class. Zoho, FreshDesk, Chargebee, InMobi, FusionCharts etc. I predict that in the coming years, we will see several hundred more.

Indian IT is innovating. The Product companies are a different breed and don't come from the IT Services stable.

There's no need to piss on ourselves. India has always been an innovative nation historically and will become one again.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 11 Oct 2017 22:15

shiv wrote:It is my belief that no amount of fiddling from the government is going to change things. Ultimately the private sector has to get the machinery and manpower that only the PSUs have now. The government needs to spend on madarsa reform, reservation, farmer loans, roads etc and is NOT going to pay attention to more research in defence labs.


Its not a zero sum game. But with limited resources we need to think, where is going to be the best bang for the buck in short, mid and long terms. We need to work on multiple fronts simultaneously. And we have huge manpower to work on as many fronts as required. Modi alone doesn't have to do all. He cannot do all. But what he can do is choose right people and empower them. We need people like Bhabha or Sarabhai in Aeronautics at the topmost level and similar kind of free hand that they got. But when we do not even have dedicated RM for long time or a good RM is sent back for some petty political gains then its difficult to have faith in thinking of current government. Modi has done fantastically on fronts like Railways or Power or Roads by selecting good ministers. But seems totally clueless on Aero-Defense RnD (to be fail low hanging fruits with short term targets are a good success but it doesn't solve tomorrows problem for us for which we need to start preparing today even if in small way). Why..? Money was never an issue with planned expenditure of 8.5lakh Cr for Railways or 20lakh Cr for roads. Aero-Def needs a small fraction of that money. And there will be returns from that investment too. Frankly I don't see government thinking on any structural reforms on this front, or even if they have something in mind, is planning on doing it any time soon. What works for low tech manufacturing under MII cannot be applied copy-paste for high tech manufacturing or Strategically important technology development.

Another thing is unless government subsidizes R&D in big way, you can forget any hope of Private industry to put in its own money and catch up with the world in high tech fields for long time to come. We will have an industry similar to IT, which can do all sorts of menial jobs but there is no real technological advancement and strategic benefit to Nation in long run. The money governments put in subsidizing high tech R&T actually makes the Aero-Def businesses viable. Without that even the Western OEMs will soon die. There is not enough money to make for OEMs in commercial or military sales which would keep the investors happy and at the same time have enough kitty to invest in R&D for future technology. There is a reason why so many aircraft OEMs in US went under the hammer and got absorbed into only 3-4 OEMs now. The government spending went down over the decades, a good part of which would go in funding research. I can tell you that no private company, Indian or foreign would be interested in opening up a R&D center in India, which could bring out technology like Jet engine or Stealth, unless GOI pays at least half of it directly and some more indirectly in tax breaks, soft loans etc. So it doesn't matter who will do the work, PSU or private, there is no alternative to government funding. Yes, low or mid level component specific or generic technology would get developed and perhaps our industry would catch up with the rest but the time taken will be unacceptably high. Afterall even after 25+ years of economic liberalization, our Auto industry is still long way from rivaling BMW or Volvo or JLR in terms of quality and technological capabilities, despite having huge market and significant market capitalization.

Zynda,

I had replied to that post of yours. The BLADE program runs under Clean Sky-2 which is about 1.6Billion Euro EU funding, matched equally by participating companies. So about 3.2-3.5B euro program. And that's the only thing for a while.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby negi » 11 Oct 2017 22:24

Actually Indian IT companies are a very poor analogy ; we started with offshoring model both in services as well as products due to cost arbitrage it is not be sneered at for cost arbitrage is a viable business model ; today the big 4 in cloud Amazon, Google, MSFT and Oracle are all trying to get into IAAS and PAAS why ? They all claim their cloud is cheaper and better again cost arbitrage is a key factor. Anyways coming back to Indian IT , when we could employ lakhs to do 'easier' work and still make good money we did that , what's wrong in it ? Today when cost of doing that easier work is no longer increasing at same rate as wages and some of such work being taken over by automation we are being forced to innovate , pivot and all that ; companies are doing that some will fail and some will succeed. This is what happens in nature i.e. beings compete with each other for survival and the fittest survive ; this is the best aspect of private sector for there is no place for misplaced sentiments and beyond a point no way to sustain nepotism or other forms of favoritism as one has to finally show net positive revenue .

For all the ills of American cos one fact is undeniable you look up the founding members of any of their top arms manufacturers they all were passionate about the trade , money followed . Problem with these nice 'safe' job sanctuaries under the government is that such places attract lot of people who are in it for 'job safety' more than the love of the 'trade'.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2017 22:30

enaiel wrote:So if GoI needs to pay truckloads of money with confirmed orders to private industry to get them to participate, why can't the same be done for PSUs? I am genuinely asking.

The government IMO is paying truckloads of money already for imports and skimping on defence PSUs. If we are going to pay a lot for imports let us at least get those manufacturers to set up a plant in India and let Indian workers learn a few skills. Maybe screwdriver skills but skills hitherto known only to PSU workers with 11AM to 4PM jobs, time bound promotion and pension, DA, ADA, health benefits etc

I think that we are fairly clever at recognizing the propaganda purpose of certain expressions like "religion of peace" but we have allowed ourselves to be fooled by expressions like "transfer of technology" - which is a load of rubbish. We will get no transfer of technology from getting a foreign arms manufacturer to set up a plant here. Like early Maruti Udyog plants - it will be assembly only of imported parts. But they will be Indian workers and not foreigners or permanent pension guaranteed PSU gormint employees. And as orders for PSUs dry up they will have to downsize or move into value addition + research. There will be strikes of PSU employees mediated by commies, but ESMA will have to be invoked and eventually - so what if PSU production does down if pvt industry has taken over. I mean we have had Maruti Udyog strikes but what has that done to the car industry. No effect

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2017 01:28

One new mantra:

You can't innovate what you don't make.

Innovation comes form deep knowledge don't let anyone fool you.

Transfer of technology is baloney. They will take you money and give you some thing.

Otherwise its powerpointgiri

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 12 Oct 2017 06:55

^^^^^^+++++++1

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby samirdiw » 12 Oct 2017 07:57

enaiel wrote:So if GoI needs to pay truckloads of money with confirmed orders to private industry to get them to participate, why can't the same be done for PSUs? I am genuinely asking.


Probably nobody in the PSU is putting their foot down. Why should they?

A private company CEO starting such a venture without a reasonably assured market at different stages of the product roadmap will get chucked out by the shareholders or board of directors pretty fast.

Meanwhile in DRDO people can say such things

Speaking to this correspondent, Dr S Christopher, Director General, DRDO said, "Weight is slightly on the higher side. We presumed, when informed about the additional requirement on MkI that weight will also be allowed additionally. Unfortunately, we missed the point."


"Development is about achieving targets and not really looking for maintenance related facilities and we are working on the deliverables," he said.
Like an iPhone that cannot be repaired?

I can assure you people lose their jobs in private companies for way smaller things.
Last edited by samirdiw on 12 Oct 2017 08:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby samirdiw » 12 Oct 2017 08:09

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/917730820122542080 --> There can be no independent foreign policy without a military armed with indigenous hardware.


This is the bottom line. Why can't our armed forces and govt understand this?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 12 Oct 2017 09:06

samirdiw wrote:
https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/917730820122542080 --> There can be no independent foreign policy without a military armed with indigenous hardware.


This is the bottom line. Why can't our armed forces and govt understand this?


Conversely,
There can be no short term, and consequently, long term defence of the nation if armed forces are not provided with appropriate weapons in a timely manner


This is the triple bottom line. Why can't jingoes and govt. understand this?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 12 Oct 2017 09:07

samirdiw wrote:
https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/917730820122542080 --> There can be no independent foreign policy without a military armed with indigenous hardware.


This is the bottom line. Why can't our armed forces and govt understand this?

These pithy truisms fail to mention the fact that we cannot have domestic arms without an industry that is able to produce them in time, in adequate numbers and quality. Socialist era PSUs with lifetime jobs, time-bound promotion, retirement benefits etc have done nothing to improve the efficiency, innovation and productivity of our domestic industry.

Most Indians including journalists do not know enough about the degree of industrial sophistication and investment required for private industry to contribute, while PSUs chug along at low efficiency with guaranteed orders and a captive market that has to swallow whatever PSUs churn out at their own slow rate.

Not to mention and "educated public/jingos" who curse the forces for being import pasand when they have uncomplainingly used PSU guns, parachutes and unsafe explosives for decades

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 12 Oct 2017 09:14

I am not cursing any individual here - but I speak from personal knowledge of the defence PSU employee father who gets every jayanti off - Gandhi Jayanti, Valmiki jayanti, Mahaveer jayanti, Id, Christmas, Diwali etc while his newly employed Itivity son gets no days off except for Christmas and one day for Diwali.

With our PSU's firing on two cylinders how the hell can we call this a defence industry? And there are no major private players yet. Though ther will be - whether we like it or not

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 12 Oct 2017 10:55

shiv wrote:I am not cursing any individual here - but I speak from personal knowledge of the defence PSU employee father who gets every jayanti off - Gandhi Jayanti, Valmiki jayanti, Mahaveer jayanti, Id, Christmas, Diwali etc while his newly employed Itivity son gets no days off except for Christmas and one day for Diwali.


While this is exaggeration to point out lackadaisical work culture in government jobs, I understand, private companies give minimum of 10 days leaves for festivals/National holidays. On top of it 8-10 sick leaves and 18-25 earned leaves. This is in my observation in a good number of mid or large private companies across the sectors. I get enough leaves that I can work effective 4 days a week for most of the year. Only very small companies with may be 20-30 employees for which less stringent labor laws are applicable would give less leaves, but by law still you get 10+8+12 leaves minimum I think. I don't think government employees get whole lot more leaves than a half-decent private company would give. My father was a government employee, he wouldn't at least.

The overwork in IT companies or some other private companies is out of bad work culture as well. Both extremes are bad.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 12 Oct 2017 11:12

JayS wrote:
shiv wrote:I am not cursing any individual here - but I speak from personal knowledge of the defence PSU employee father who gets every jayanti off - Gandhi Jayanti, Valmiki jayanti, Mahaveer jayanti, Id, Christmas, Diwali etc while his newly employed Itivity son gets no days off except for Christmas and one day for Diwali.


While this is exaggeration to point out lackadaisical work culture in government jobs, I understand, private companies give minimum of 10 days leaves for festivals/National holidays. On top of it 8-10 sick leaves and 18-25 earned leaves. This is in my observation in a good number of mid or large private companies across the sectors. I get enough leaves that I can work effective 4 days a week for most of the year. Only very small companies with may be 20-30 employees for which less stringent labor laws are applicable would give less leaves, but by law still you get 10+8+12 leaves minimum I think. I don't think government employees get whole lot more leaves than a half-decent private company would give. My father was a government employee, he wouldn't at least.

The overwork in IT companies or some other private companies is out of bad work culture as well. Both extremes are bad.


Not to forget that the PSU employee will never get fired no matter how bad business might be and gets retirements benefits to boot.

One work culture extracts work. The other ensures that work is optional. Exaggeration maybe but when we talk of PSUs and cost - we never speak of the fact that the huge workforce with guaranteed jobs no matter what the circumstances are and the fact that all the buildings and infrastructure are completely depreciated - we have a situation where a private company simply cannot compete with PSUs even if the latter work at low efficiency.

And I note that PSUs also project imported assembled parts - sometimes without Russian or other labels removed as "make in India" or "indigenous", such as the chaff/flare dispensers that were on display at the last Aero India.

This PSU set up cannot be expected to produce more with more funds because the funds are wasted on inefficiency and bureaucracy. Every time they set up a new unit they will have a long list of employees from white collar to blue collar to banian clad sweeper/tea boy and chauffeurs for the bosses and residential units for workers. It's a good life but the country needs a timebound return on investment. The PSU model of low pay, (now pretty high) pension, residential accommodation etc is not followed by any efficient company that must survive in an unprotected world.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 12 Oct 2017 12:38

These pithy truisms fail to mention the fact that we cannot have domestic arms without an industry that is able to produce them in time, in adequate numbers and quality. Socialist era PSUs with lifetime jobs, time-bound promotion, retirement benefits etc have done nothing to improve the efficiency, innovation and productivity of our domestic industry.

Most Indians including journalists do not know enough about the degree of industrial sophistication and investment required for private industry to contribute, while PSUs chug along at low efficiency with guaranteed orders and a captive market that has to swallow whatever PSUs churn out at their own slow rate.

Not to mention and "educated public/jingos" who curse the forces for being import pasand when they have uncomplainingly used PSU guns, parachutes and unsafe explosives for decades


Shiv,you have said virtually what a former CNS has said about the Tejas/DPSU issue.Unions affecting poor rate of prod.,patchy quality leading to serious safety considerations,and poor supply chain ,delivery,etc. affecting aircraft availability in the field.Coupled with a pvt. industry that hasn't the infrastructure and technical skills,unless JVs are established to resolve the glitches and fundamental flaws,the situation will continue. Thus the services demand foreign wares because this disease is systematic with our DPSUs.The Govt. of the day has to use the whip,hire and fire,attitudes must prevail and a constant monitoring of defence issues esp. production.I rarely get to hear of anything from a Def. Min. of Prod.. regarding what ails our desi industry.In fact the Def. Min./MOD itself requires a thorough cleaning up.Just see what has been posted in the IN td. 42 months to "negotiate" an awarded deal for CSL to make small ASW corvettes of around 700t.2 yrs. after that the first corvette will be launched. That's 5+ yrs. from now when China is manufacturing much larger ASW corvettes at the rate of 6-8 /yr.I can understand production issues at a shipyard,but 3.5 yrs. to simply negotiate a deal which has been awarded to CSL as lowest tenderer? It should instead be around 3-4 months at the max.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2017 13:52

These are circular arguments.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 12 Oct 2017 15:42

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
While this is exaggeration to point out lackadaisical work culture in government jobs, I understand, private companies give minimum of 10 days leaves for festivals/National holidays. On top of it 8-10 sick leaves and 18-25 earned leaves. This is in my observation in a good number of mid or large private companies across the sectors. I get enough leaves that I can work effective 4 days a week for most of the year. Only very small companies with may be 20-30 employees for which less stringent labor laws are applicable would give less leaves, but by law still you get 10+8+12 leaves minimum I think. I don't think government employees get whole lot more leaves than a half-decent private company would give. My father was a government employee, he wouldn't at least.

The overwork in IT companies or some other private companies is out of bad work culture as well. Both extremes are bad.


Not to forget that the PSU employee will never get fired no matter how bad business might be and gets retirements benefits to boot.

One work culture extracts work. The other ensures that work is optional. Exaggeration maybe but when we talk of PSUs and cost - we never speak of the fact that the huge workforce with guaranteed jobs no matter what the circumstances are and the fact that all the buildings and infrastructure are completely depreciated - we have a situation where a private company simply cannot compete with PSUs even if the latter work at low efficiency.

And I note that PSUs also project imported assembled parts - sometimes without Russian or other labels removed as "make in India" or "indigenous", such as the chaff/flare dispensers that were on display at the last Aero India.

This PSU set up cannot be expected to produce more with more funds because the funds are wasted on inefficiency and bureaucracy. Every time they set up a new unit they will have a long list of employees from white collar to blue collar to banian clad sweeper/tea boy and chauffeurs for the bosses and residential units for workers. It's a good life but the country needs a timebound return on investment. The PSU model of low pay, (now pretty high) pension, residential accommodation etc is not followed by any efficient company that must survive in an unprotected world.


While we can endlessly talk about this, I will close my argument saying this - drawing from my own experience from both government and private organizations that I have seen and worked in over the years, I believe the gap between the work culture is less that what its typically made out to be. I feel it can be bridged since there are good things from both sides, which should be retained while discarding bad things. While for a lot of sectors it makes sense for Government to get out of the business completely, I am of the opinion that there is really no way government can completely rely on private industry for Aerospace and Defense sector. One way or the other they have to put in money and share the load. Since we have an existing system and limited resources, in my opinion again it makes more sense to start with it while improving it on one front (by giving full autonomy) while bringing in new things from other front (private companies being T1/2/3 companies, may be some screwdrivergiri projects, offset work) and eventually find an equilibrium somewhere in between. We neither do have time nor resources to squander existing knowledge and setup and start from scratch in private industry which is again not a full proof solution in itself. Its not a zero sum game where Public unit participation means no private to be allowed or vice versa (no more license raj, proliferation is needed but we also need PSUs to be anchors initially). For a fully private setup we need a R&T base in academia and industrial research organizations (which bridge the gap between academia and industry, and majorly subsidize high tech research from government funding) through which government channelize money for Tech development. We do not have such set up and it will take years to make one. But it can be achieved by channeling money through existing government bodies albeit in improved format. On the other hand Private players need to prepare themselves for technology absorption with a vision and investments on long term goals. Government again has to step in here and assure the industry sufficient orders so the business becomes viable. (They have to buy, even if its substandard, whether from PSU or private, if they want Indian MIC to thrive). I see LCA model the best bet to kick-start Indian MIC where HAL hand holds smaller players to setup manufacturing and eventually partake design responsibilities of modules. While the private industry can work on off-set related MII work side-by-side, there needs to be a plan that they bring in processes and basic level technology along with efficiency and good program management (and even inorganic capability gain through acquisitions of foreign entities) while the PSUs bring in top level key technology, filling in the gaps. Because private industry cannot get key tech from screwdrivergiri, but can learn a good deal on processes and best practices which can supplant PSU's bad work culture. While government can channel funds for key high tech development through arms like HAL/BEL/NAL, which pvt industry will never be able to/willing to undertake. Together, this should enable us to have a decent MIC where initially experienced PSUs act as system integrators and bear and bring up private MIC in form of Tier1/2/3 suppliers to a level where some of the Tier 1 suppliers can start becoming OEMs eventually. On top of all this, the topmost level of program management be given to the respective AFs who would own and fund the product and drive the program through something like an IPT (LCA model again seems good one but program ownership with IAF not with ADA, ADA should have had only design ownership), having participation from all stake holders.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 12 Oct 2017 18:27

JayS wrote: I believe the gap between the work culture is less that what its typically made out to be. I feel it can be bridged

Thanks for the detailed post and while I have nothing specific to disagree and argue about work culture as you describe it - my "rant" if you like was aimed at inefficiencies of the system. I must explain and anyone is free to point out if I am wrong.

I think you are talking about the "work culture" of cutting edge people doing the "meat" of design or production or whatever.

By "inefficiencies" I am talking about all the flab that the government adds on in every PSU. I have mentioned earlier posts like gardener and driver and other "class 4" employees. Now the senior officers will have drivers and maybe company cars. These guys are also government employees with time bound increase in salary and eligible for pension. They sit all day while burra sahib does his work and then drive him around. This is pure flab. Also every PSU has extra posts - for example a finance officer - an IAS who gets involved in the finances of the company. The head/owner/shareholder does not have financial autonomy beyond a point. Each and every one of these "flab" employees will typically be housed in a dedicated colony where residences are built for different classes of workers from officers down to gardener.

While these constitute a unique "socialist" financial drain on the government it is offset by the fact that the PSU itself does not have to pay taxes on land and buildings - or even if they did most assets are now totally depreciated - having been PSU land for decades. This lack of financial burden somewhat offsets the other financial flab of having more employees than needed who get paid 24x7x365. When the government declares a public holiday - the most dedicated and highest paid and motivated people of the PSU may come in to work - but work may not go on because drivers, painters, electricans, sweepers etc are off for that day

Private companies simply cannot afford to pay accommodation for all employees, keep drivers for all sahibs sitting in the car park drinking chai or giving them regular increments whether there are orders or not. Private companies also have to pay for land and assets they acquire. So even if the "cutting edge" technical/engineering workers in private sector and public sector are equally competent and productive - the system is weighed in favour of making the PSU look more attractive and less expensive despite all the flab and inefficiency. And because the government is paying for everything including building an entire housing colony - they can site their PSUs in the most underdeveloped areas and get votes for that. No private company can get decent employees into Dandakaranya forest or waybeyond unless there is money to be made. The government is not worrying about making money.

R Chidambaram (a much criticized name on these forums) once gave a talk in which he had mentioned many of these factors that made ISRO competitive - specifically singling out free and full depreciated real estate holdings that did not have to figure at all in launch costs.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby chola » 12 Oct 2017 21:46

Philip wrote:
These pithy truisms fail to mention the fact that we cannot have domestic arms without an industry that is able to produce them in time, in adequate numbers and quality. Socialist era PSUs with lifetime jobs, time-bound promotion, retirement benefits etc have done nothing to improve the efficiency, innovation and productivity of our domestic industry.

Most Indians including journalists do not know enough about the degree of industrial sophistication and investment required for private industry to contribute, while PSUs chug along at low efficiency with guaranteed orders and a captive market that has to swallow whatever PSUs churn out at their own slow rate.

Not to mention and "educated public/jingos" who curse the forces for being import pasand when they have uncomplainingly used PSU guns, parachutes and unsafe explosives for decades


Shiv,you have said virtually what a former CNS has said about the Tejas/DPSU issue.Unions affecting poor rate of prod.,patchy quality leading to serious safety considerations,and poor supply chain ,delivery,etc. affecting aircraft availability in the field.Coupled with a pvt. industry that hasn't the infrastructure and technical skills,unless JVs are established to resolve the glitches and fundamental flaws,the situation will continue. Thus the services demand foreign wares because this disease is systematic with our DPSUs.The Govt. of the day has to use the whip,hire and fire,attitudes must prevail and a constant monitoring of defence issues esp. production.I rarely get to hear of anything from a Def. Min. of Prod.. regarding what ails our desi industry.In fact the Def. Min./MOD itself requires a thorough cleaning up.Just see what has been posted in the IN td. 42 months to "negotiate" an awarded deal for CSL to make small ASW corvettes of around 700t.2 yrs. after that the first corvette will be launched. That's 5+ yrs. from now when China is manufacturing much larger ASW corvettes at the rate of 6-8 /yr.I can understand production issues at a shipyard,but 3.5 yrs. to simply negotiate a deal which has been awarded to CSL as lowest tenderer? It should instead be around 3-4 months at the max.



You do not need to go into shipbuilding to find a good comparision. Just look at the goddam JF-17. The whole development and deployment cycle fitted INSIDE the Tejas’ development phase.

The Blunder might be a lower tech POS compared to the LCA but it also involved the inexperienced and highly incompetent TFTAs of Pakshittan which must more than make up for any time saved by simpler technology.

Yet they will be delivering their 100th Blunder sometimes in 2018. Kamra made 16 in 2016 and maybe up to 25 in the coming years. When we are lapped by TSP in building a fighter then there is something seriously fvcking wrong with the way we are doing things.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Oct 2017 22:17

Boss JF 17 all parts including wings come from China. It is the latest version of F-7 of which China has made thousands. HAL used to manufacturer Mig 21's at a higher rate in the 1980's.PAF is doing it cause other than the F16 and F-7PG the rest of fleet of Mirages and F-7s are barely flight worthy. If not for JF17 they will be stuck with F16's which the US has allowed to be based in 3or 4 AFBs.Fleet strength would be 75 out which around 50 will be servicable. IAF for all its troubles can't be compared with that.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2017 23:14

Folks please continue discussion about mfg capability in OFB and DPSUS in the other thread. Will transfer these posts there for continuity.
All these don't add to the LCA thread.

ramana

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 13 Oct 2017 08:43

Right, @IAF_MCC will conduct landing & take off operations from the Agra-Lucknow Expressway on October 24. Yes, Tejas may be there.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/918426673611079681

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kartik » 13 Oct 2017 22:54

Any news on SP-5?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Oct 2017 00:21

chola wrote:
Yet they will be delivering their 100th Blunder sometimes in 2018. Kamra made 16 in 2016 and maybe up to 25 in the coming years. When we are lapped by TSP in building a fighter then there is something seriously fvcking wrong with the way we are doing things.

Do they make any other aircraft? HAL for its weaknesses is turning LCA, Su-30, LCH

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Oct 2017 11:11

OT-As I said there is not 1 Pakistani supplier of parts to PAF Kamra, that should tell what the JF-17 is? Block II JF-17 was supposed to have aerial refuelling and Block III AESA radar.

Can we see the pics of Aerial refueling , what AESA radar and BVR test firing by JF-17?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vips » 14 Oct 2017 11:46

ArjunPandit wrote:
chola wrote:
Yet they will be delivering their 100th Blunder sometimes in 2018. Kamra made 16 in 2016 and maybe up to 25 in the coming years. When we are lapped by TSP in building a fighter then there is something seriously fvcking wrong with the way we are doing things.

Do they make any other aircraft? HAL for its weaknesses is turning LCA, Su-30, LCH


Feeling good that our warplane assembling/production per year is equal to or marginally better to Shitsian? Really??
See what we have we reduced ourselves to - A country 1/10th our economic size is actually doing better than us.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Oct 2017 12:22

OT again-
This is a Strawman Argument, Vips please tell me what part of JF-17 is manufactured in Pakistan. It is a CKD import of a non FBW aircraft,, which cant complete 1 vertical loop in flying displays, shown no BVR and very few details are on it. It is good enough to be inducted in the IAF in the 1980's not even in the 1990's

PAF takes it because it has no choice to keep its numbers up, it is like our MIg 21Bis assembly. Its MIrage Fleet and F-7 fleet are way too long in the tooth. And it does not have the Budget to maintain more than 75 of its F-16's. There is a reason why PLAAFis not inducting 1 JF-17.

So lets stop this self flagellating.

Howwever, what is required in more production of LCA with iterations and progressing towards AMCA with some sort of engine assembly within our country.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 14 Oct 2017 17:06

chola wrote:You do not need to go into shipbuilding to find a good comparision. Just look at the goddam JF-17. The whole development and deployment cycle fitted INSIDE the Tejas’ development phase.

The Blunder might be a lower tech POS compared to the LCA but it also involved the inexperienced and highly incompetent TFTAs of Pakshittan which must more than make up for any time saved by simpler technology.

Yet they will be delivering their 100th Blunder sometimes in 2018. Kamra made 16 in 2016 and maybe up to 25 in the coming years. When we are lapped by TSP in building a fighter then there is something seriously fvcking wrong with the way we are doing things.


And here we go again on the line "Quantity has a Quality of its own" argument.

Sorry Cholaji, while I agree that much needs to be done to increase LCA production, the JF-17 argument should not be taken as an appropriate analogy. HAL/ ADA/ DRDO is trying to create an OEM base (yes, they have been slow at it), but the JF-17 manufacture in Pakistan is mostly assembly.

Not taking anything away from the argument that LCA production needs to be beefed up, this comparison only creates unnecessary doubts in jingo minds.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vips » 14 Oct 2017 18:28

Best is always the enemy of good. JF17 is progressively being mode more capable in iterations. Even today HAL does not have any concrete plans of upping the production of LCA to 16. All they are doing is increasing assembling space which would up the production by 6 (to annual production of 12).
Contrary to reports there are no concrete plans for another separate plant. The HAL SU 30 production run would cease in 2020-21, LCA would then take its place.


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