LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Jan 2018 18:15

Which part of LCA is manufactured using tape..?? I have never seen or heard. Why would anyone choose tape layup if its to be done with hand rather than going for normal weaved cloth..? Is this a case of DDM reporting..?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jan 2018 18:36

Apparently, tape laying has more advantages compared to woven fabric.

https://www.compositestoday.com/2012/10 ... pe-laying/

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Jan 2018 18:55

Not when you lay with hands. I have never came across a single aplication where unidirectional tape is hand lay-up-ed.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Jan 2018 19:04

They use sheets of carbon fibers. It is not wire wound like ISRO's geodesic wound tanks.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2018 06:37

How did we miss this - so Indranil's chaiwallah's news is confirmed and better still IAF is now onboard the Mk2.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 2gIqN.html

AM Dhanoa

The IAF chief said a plan was in place to deal with the “drop-down” -- or dip -- in IAF squadrons.

He said the government had ordered two squadrons of Su 30.

“The drop-down will be made up by two Rafale, two Su 30, two LCA squadrons and 80 more aircraft which will give four more squadrons,” he said.

The government has authorised 42 squadrons to the IAF and at present there are 33.

He, however, added that the drop-down did not affect the performance of the force.

“It does not mean that we cannot carry out operations. We can do restricted operations. For carrying out full-spectrum operations the IAF needs a certain amount of force,” he said.

“There was an order of 272 aircraft and once again we were 35 short by March 2017,” he said.

Dhanoa said a contract was signed in March 2006 for 20 Tejas aircraft to be delivered between April 2009 and December 2010.

“Out of these 20 aircraft, only five were received ... Again a contract was signed in December 2010 for 20 more aircraft to be delivered between June 2014 and December 2016. So we have already committed to 40 aircraft in addition to 83 more Tejas,” he said.

He said the IAF would induct Mark 2 fighters with higher thrust engines and new weapons by 2027.

Shortcomings in LCA Mark 1 will be removed in the LCA Mark 1A aircraft and then Mark 2 will be manufactured, he said.

“Gradually we will make advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, moving from low medium to high technology aircraft,” he said. PTI VSD BDS
more from india

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Jan 2018 06:51

Bhai,

My chaiwallas don't just serve tea, they grow them, process them, make them and taste them.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 16 Jan 2018 06:55

Karan M wrote:He said the IAF would induct Mark 2 fighters with higher thrust engines and new weapons by 2027.

This is a realistic and doable timeline if money flows as and when required. They should also be able to obtain the Enhanced F414s allowing some margin on weight and performance for the late 2020s if they stick with that engine.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2018 07:25

Indranil wrote:Bhai,

My chaiwallas don't just serve tea, they grow them, process them, make them and taste them.

And long may they continue!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2018 07:26

brar_w wrote:
Karan M wrote:He said the IAF would induct Mark 2 fighters with higher thrust engines and new weapons by 2027.

This is a realistic and doable timeline if money flows as and when required. They should also be able to obtain the Enhanced F414s allowing some margin on weight and performance for the late 2020s if they stick with that engine.

I hope they look at some reduced RCS mods as well if they have another decade to go.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Jan 2018 07:55

Karan M wrote:...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 2gIqN.html

AM Dhanoa

The IAF chief said a plan was in place to deal with the “drop-down” -- or dip -- in IAF squadrons.

He said the government had ordered two squadrons of Su 30.

“The drop-down will be made up by two Rafale, two Su 30, two LCA squadrons and 80 more aircraft which will give four more squadrons,” he said.

The government has authorised 42 squadrons to the IAF and at present there are 33.
...

“There was an order of 272 aircraft and once again we were 35 short by March 2017,” he said.
...

He said the IAF would induct Mark 2 fighters with higher thrust engines and new weapons by 2027.
...

By 2025 (or thereabouts), the IAF will be inducting 10 new squadrons (Rafale, Su-30MKI and LCA Mk.1/1A) plus 35 more (~2 squadrons worth) Su-30MKI in production from previous order. Total 12 new squadrons being inducted. Retiring are 8 MiG-21 Bis/Bison and 2 MiG-27UPG.Total retiring 10 squadrons. Net is +2 gain. We are looking at 35 squadrons.

2018 -> 33 squadrons

- 10 Retiring (8 MiG-21 Bis/Bison and 2 MiG-27UPG)
+ 12 On Order/Production (2 Rafale, 2 + 2 Su-30MKI and 1 + 1 + 4 LCA Mk.1/1A)

2025 -> 35 squadrons

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2018 07:58

Yes however these are much more capable planes.
Which is a good thing,.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Jan 2018 08:00

^^^
Yes. Some DDM while arguing for SEF came up with the IAF being down to 19 squadrons only

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 16 Jan 2018 09:28

It's not a direct quote, it may be an interpretation of something else the air chief said. I am sorry but I can't help be skeptical.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Jan 2018 10:37

srai wrote:^^^
Yes. Some DDM while arguing for SEF came up with the IAF being down to 19 squadrons only

It not just DDMs, couple days back there was LSTV panel discussion posted on PAKFA thread, the IAF gent was repeating the same.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Jan 2018 12:41

brar_w wrote:
Karan M wrote:He said the IAF would induct Mark 2 fighters with higher thrust engines and new weapons by 2027.

This is a realistic and doable timeline if money flows as and when required. They should also be able to obtain the Enhanced F414s allowing some margin on weight and performance for the late 2020s if they stick with that engine.

Indeed. I have expressed 2027-28 as a realistic time frame for induction of MK2 in multiple of my posts recently expecting a start now. If GOI, IAF and DRDO are fully committed and on same page, there is no reason why we cannot have MK2 inducted in 2027. Historically LCA has got relatively better treatment in terms of sanctions and fund release so there is a good hope to see MK2 being inducted by 2027.

If I were the program manager I would have pushed for 2025 induction date though. With 2 versions (MK1/1A) already in service in coming few years, all the stake holders would have a fair bit of understanding of the various factors involved in the MK2 program and it should be possible for them to start serial production ahead of IOC as many other programs worldwide have. A proper requirement and change management can easily enable full scale induction right at the IOC while leaving FOC changes only as retrofit or even already built in at that stage but restricted to be used unless cleared on FOC.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Jan 2018 12:42

prasannasimha wrote:They use sheets of carbon fibers. It is not wire wound like ISRO's geodesic wound tanks.

Wire wound..? Can you direct me to some source where I can see what is this process exactly..?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jan 2018 13:07

From the good ACM's statements, there's been a delay in both MKI and LCA production.Even with the extra Raffys, MKIs and planned LCAs, there's a shortfall of 80 aircraft. Where are these going to come From?

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 16 Jan 2018 14:33

^ some example off Google as I am busy.
If you Google geodesic winding of Carbon fibre you will get umpteen papers on it.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 16 Jan 2018 14:53

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 16 Jan 2018 14:55

You can do geodesic and nongeodesic winding for pressure vessels and various other things like T bars etc. Other method is to layer sheets or tapes depending on the need. Tejas uses multiple layers of carbon fibre sheets.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Jan 2018 15:58

prasannasimha wrote:You can do geodesic and nongeodesic winding for pressure vessels and various other things like T bars etc. Other method is to layer sheets or tapes depending on the need. Tejas uses multiple layers of carbon fibre sheets.

Everything I have read points to tapes being used in LCA, not fabric/sheets. Can you please post links which says fabric/sheets are being used? I had posted links earlier about tapes being used.

Mahindra · Post by **Mahindra** » 16 Jan 2018 21:01

Here is my two cents worth of knowledge. You all know that composite prepreg (CFRP) comes in sheet/fabric, tape forms of varying width. For relatively flat or slightly contoured structure such as wing skins, tape or fabric is used; tape of machine layup and fabric for hand layup. For highly contoured structure such as a geodesic or as in the case of the fuselage, a tow placement or fiber placement system can be used to lay down resin impregnated fiber.

Toray, Hexcel, Cytec are among the big suppliers for structural composite materials (all forms). There may be others but I am nor familiar with them. The equipment suppliers for CTLMs, FPs etc are MTorres, Forrest Lenay, Ingersoll, or ElectroImpact. There may be others as well in Europe, Japan. Preforms or woven forms are used for more complicated structure where it may be advantageous to do so over other methods. Typically, such process requires infusing resin uniformly to achieve just the right level of resin all across the structure. The above is typically for thermoset composites which requires curing in an autoclave. However "non-autoclave" or "out of autoclave" composites are beginning to emerge into use.

I hope HAL/DRDO folks are working on all these techs as they are likely banned for India. Some automation may be needed to make the LCAs in quantity, launch future projects, or to achieve desired levels of quality. And then there is the issue of self sufficiency for future projects.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 16 Jan 2018 21:21

prasannasimha wrote:You can do geodesic and nongeodesic winding for pressure vessels and various other things like T bars etc. Other method is to layer sheets or tapes depending on the need. Tejas uses multiple layers of carbon fibre sheets.

HAL stall at Aero India shows many composite parts for Tejas. One can see for themselves if it tape or sheet. It's been a long time to recall memory, but it was sheet AFAIR.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Jan 2018 21:41

putnanja wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:You can do geodesic and nongeodesic winding for pressure vessels and various other things like T bars etc. Other method is to layer sheets or tapes depending on the need. Tejas uses multiple layers of carbon fibre sheets.
Everything I have read points to tapes being used in LCA, not fabric/sheets. Can you please post links which says fabric/sheets are being used? I had posted links earlier about tapes being used.

Just see the NAL's PPT embedded in the link you posted previously (from where this discussion started). Google can easily throw some more references. Also some where there is a video or two showing NAL folks making the composite parts.

It makes no sense to use tape for hand layup. Completely impractical. May be for some small components like ribs, stiffeners and so on, but not for part which are essentially panels of large size.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2018 22:09

Mahindra, Welcome to the Forum and hope to hear more often from you.

ramana

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 16 Jan 2018 22:12

putnanja - let us just say that I have seen the fabric sheet. Also go to Adhamya Chethana next time and visit NAL's stall and you can see it there.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 17 Jan 2018 04:02

Why are their doubts around Mk2?
Recent DRDO publication posted here clearly stated that 2 F414 engines have been received and are going through final integration testing. I have not seen any news stating or even employing that mk2 has been shelved?

To replace several hundred Migs we would need way more than 120 odd LCA mK1s and even if we count the planned 100 single engine MRCA as light aircrafts, we still would have a large gap to fill in light/medium category that can't be filled without mk2. Once IAF gets the taste of the LCA blood it is going to order shit load of LCAs just like Pinaka, Akash and Dhruvs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2018 05:23

Muh me ghee shakkar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jan 2018 11:45

but why go for the logistic headache of 100 SEF? the gap filler should be upgrade of Su30s and Rafale order.

btw, is this a new compilation or an old one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfGejegEdvg

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 17 Jan 2018 17:23

Defending Tejas fiercely and applauding Rudra & Nag

It’s still early days, but it seems Modi and Sitharaman are slowly showing their true colours and betting big on our engineers and scientists and home-grown defence products

R Swaminathan | January 17, 2018

http://www.governancenow.com/views/colu ... udra--nag-

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jan 2018 18:27

From the above,

presentation made by certain sections of the IAF to top officials of the defence ministry sprinkled with certain selective facts and figures.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 17 Jan 2018 19:07

There is some confusion in the article. He is confusing the decision for MK1A orders with the Single Engine Fighter requirement. There has never been any doubt on the MK1A orders. The presentation was made in context of a further evolution of Tejas. I cannot say more than this.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 19:11

SSridhar wrote:From the above,
presentation made by certain sections of the IAF to top officials of the defence ministry sprinkled with certain selective facts and figures.

also from the above

''There is, however, an emerging pattern, one that will immeasurably gladden the hearts of the dedicated minority of defence analysts, journalists and long-time observers and a substantial majority of defence professionals and personnel who have been advocating for India to achieve self-sufficiency and internal strength on critical military systems and sub-systems.''

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jan 2018 19:40

SSridhar wrote:From the above,
presentation made by certain sections of the IAF to top officials of the defence ministry sprinkled with certain selective facts and figures.

Seems to be the author's impression.

His facts are themselves incorrect

Tejas Mk1A will initially be equipped with jointly developed and produced HAL-Israeli Elbit EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and later on replaced completely by the indigenous Uttam AESA.

HAL has floated a RFP for AESA radars for Tejas and hasnt done any development on 2052. Such statements reflect the author's credibility.

Of the three aircraft, Tejas uses the most basic GE F-series engine producing the least amount of dry and wet thrust.

But as per GE, F-404 IN20 is the highest rated engine in the series and the most advanced one

https://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f404-engine

The highest thrust variant of the F404 family, the -IN20, deploys the latest hot section materials and technologies to power India's Light Combat Aircraft.

https://www.geaviation.com/sites/defaul ... Family.pdf

IN20 84 kN RM12 80.5 kN

We requested GE to develop a higher rated version to compensate weight & drag issues.

Careful observers of Tejas’s inception, growth, evolution and its baby steps will know and appreciate the thoughtfulness with which the aircraft has been designed keeping in mind the ease of flying and maintenance. The airframe has been designed using a modular approach. Systems and sub-systems, including at the basic component level, are easy to reach for an engineer and it’s like a simple computer in terms of plugging out an old part, plugging in a new one and getting back to playing.

The reason Mk1A was designed was to improve maintainability over what was originally designed.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/06 ... hosen.html

On maintainability alone, the Tejas Mk.1A will have the 43 improvements out of 57 planned on the bigger, more powerful Tejas Mk.2:

Panel interchangeability: In the prototype stage, composite panels were built and matched to specific airframes. For the Mk.1A, tooling will be built up and panels moulded lending themselves to easy interchangeability between airframes, plus spares. The IAF won’t deal with a platform that doesn’t allow at least this level of squadron-level maintainability, so this is priority.

Quick access: Several airframe panels that required daily servicing have a large number of screws that need to be removed — a time consuming affair that eats into the platform’s turnaround time. These will be replaced on the Mk.1A by quick release fasteners making it easier and faster for maintainers access, considerably bringing down time required to service aircraft. Importantly, quick release fasteners will remain with the panel and therefore minimise FOD chances.

Gromets in composite panels: When fasteners are regularly used for removal and installation, there is a possibility of damage and widening of holes. Mk.1A panels will have to stop this.

LRU positions: A number of LRUs will be repositioned for better access. Current configurations make it nuisance to access frequently used LRUs.

Additional aids: The Mk.1A package will contain ground handling aids and testers to enable speedier turnaround of aircraft

The Mk1A is actually a production and maintenance friendly version of Mk1.

The author makes a lot of unsubstantiated speculation -

In short, when Tejas achieved those numbers its tank was full and all its eight hardpoints were loaded.

Wow. No fuel was consumed taking off and reaching test altitude. I am yet to see a photo of Tejas with all 8 hard points loaded. And as we have all seen, during testing, many of the hardpoints carry cameras.

Tejas’s basic service life is at least 30 years and with regular upgrades its life can be extended to at least 60 years.

Very jingo article like the Chinese articles. Such articles with incorrect facts actually end up hurting the credibility of the actual program.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 19:56

Indranil wrote:Bhai,

My chaiwallas don't just serve tea, they grow them, process them, make them and taste them.

Indranil, apologies for this question but I have perused the last 4 pages of this thread trying to see what info your chaiwala's gave. But coudnt find out. Was it that IAF is backing AMCA over FFGA ?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jan 2018 20:26

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Was it that IAF is backing AMCA over FFGA ?

Not to steal IR's very well deserved thunder in all departments, but wasn't I the first to report that FGFA is dead as a dodo

Barring the possibility of Putin making a pitch to Modi similar to Yeltsin did to Vajpayee.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jan 2018 20:35

Aha so it was that. Was it your Old Monk wala ? Not to create competition between the respective intel sources of course;-)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jan 2018 21:32

Mahindra wrote:Here is my two cents worth of knowledge.

Welcome Mahindra. Nice to see you here after our meeting in Chennai. Hope you can slot in here easily.

Mahindra is in the Abhibhushan/Yak Herder category of people. Don't want to embarrass him though

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 17 Jan 2018 21:42

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Indranil wrote:Bhai,

My chaiwallas don't just serve tea, they grow them, process them, make them and taste them.
Indranil, apologies for this question but I have perused the last 4 pages of this thread trying to see what info your chaiwala's gave. But coudnt find out. Was it that IAF is backing AMCA over FFGA ?

Saar, it was this one

Indranil wrote:There was some great zaika in the chai today. AMCA and Mk2 has been sanctioned. Hopefully funds will also start to flow in soon.

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Jan 2018 22:00

ashishvikas wrote:Defending Tejas fiercely and applauding Rudra & Nag

It’s still early days, but it seems Modi and Sitharaman are slowly showing their true colours and betting big on our engineers and scientists and home-grown defence products

R Swaminathan | January 17, 2018

http://www.governancenow.com/views/colu ... udra--nag-

Agree with tsarkar on the very jingoistic nature of the write up. And way too verbose ... even for quick scanning