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LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Thakur_B
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Aug 2017 07:23

Wow, the F136 idiocy has really caught the fancy over here. It's an engine that's huge for an F-16 sized fighter, hell it is 1.5 times the thrust of the engine in f-16. Do people even stop and think before they blurt out their random thoughts ?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Aug 2017 08:05

No no Eric Saar I didn't mean together on one platform.

But to choose between both whichever has Faster Surge, how does one knows? Is there a UNIT for that?

I m Sorry I couldn't articulate the question properly.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Aug 2017 08:15

Thakur_B wrote:Wow, the F136 idiocy has really caught the fancy over here.


Thakur ji,

The idea was to have a TejasXL same design Tailless Cranked Delta on the lines of F16XL.

Since GE's f136 is anyway going to be wasted. One hand washes the other.

A bomb truck with lots of Pylons:
Image

Imagine TejasXL carrying 16 Garuthma+ Spice bombs. Raining them on enemies. :twisted:

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Aug 2017 08:55

Does anyone think this is even possible in under 15 years timeframe? Or that airframes are scalable? Everyone is targeting 2030s for AMCA despite close to 10 years of groundwork. That's the reality and I think people should take their flights of fancy into design your own fighter thread.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rahul M » 29 Aug 2017 09:01

NRao wrote:well RM,

regarding 2-engine LCA, AMCA


The "2-engine LCA" and teh picture you posted WAS the MCA, which morphed into a totally diff beast called the AMCA. They are NOT the same...

believe me, I do know the backstory.
I shared that image because at one time MCA was supposed to be just an enlarged LCA with 2 engines. I want AMCA to go back to that philosophy for its Mk1, except for form factor i.e fuselage design, in order to gain radar deflection & internal weapons carriage.
*everything else* should be based upon existing tech, most of which would be flying on LCA. if you think that makes it obsolete it simply means that the LCA itself is obsolete, if we take a subsystem by subsystem view.
so, which LCA subsystem(s) do you think no longer meets the requirement of a modern AF ?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby pandyan » 29 Aug 2017 09:08

Saar - customer (s) have to agree. It will obviously get benchmarked against jsf a d the likes

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby astal » 29 Aug 2017 09:25

Pandyan,

If a two engine MCA is as capable as a Rafale in 20 years (at MLU), it should be good enough. That is a consistent standard. (My conjecture is that Rafale MLU will be as expensive or more expensive than a new MCA Mk 0.5)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Aug 2017 09:41

Rakesh wrote:Cain-ji: Let's come back to earth :) Focus on completing Mk.1 production, move on to Mk.1A production and then on to completion of development of Mk2 and commence production. Leave the twin engine to AMCA.

Admiral Sir, with due respect I would argue that this focus from mk1 -> mk1a -> mk2 does not truly take into consideration the Navy's requirement. Its a model that will work for the IAF, but even here one could argue that the Mk2 is redundant because tthe mk1a is set to provide most of the mk2's usp. So whatt is the point of developing a fighter suuch as the gripen NG, which has taken over 10 years already and is struggling withh weight issues? Again, it will likely not work for the navy and second, most of its functionalityy will be provided by the mk1a.

It is a futile exercise in insanity, repeating the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Might be far better to consider an intermediate fighter between the mk1a and amca that is very close to the lca in design but does not suffer from the lack of space which necessitates lengthy and painful development times. Instead go bigger - we already have everything that is needed to make it a product with faster time to market - expertise in design, materials, control laws, sensors, avionics and testing. We may even have the engines. An LCA mk2 should essentially be an amca mk.0 witth decent shaping (planform alignment and s shaped ducts but no internal carriage), 11+hps some of which might even be recessed to provide low drag and rcs along with possible supersonic cruise, aesa, irst?, composite structures, Basicallly on par/betteer than any eurocannard, su-35 or super hornet. 10 - 11 tons empty and 18 tons max thrust. This is doable in the next 10 years imho. The Navy will jump on it and the AF too.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gyan » 29 Aug 2017 09:53

ks_sachin wrote:
Gyan wrote:LCA MK3 with F136 engine will also address the size and range issues of Navy.


Gyan, brar-w in a previous post has categorically stated that the F136 is dead.


That's exactly the point of discussion. That this engine is dead for USA but has lot of value therefore we should co develop with GE a& RR for projects 20 year down the line.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 11:14


From the Cockpit: Part 2 of the Interview with Gp Capt Suneeth Krishna


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z4Uyhib-gA

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Austin » 29 Aug 2017 11:44

Great Find Karan M , Thanks ...Had the honor to meet Group Captain Rangachari at AI this year

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 11:56

Lucky you! Share some details about what he said!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Austin » 29 Aug 2017 12:16

Karan M wrote:Lucky you! Share some details about what he said!


Well you dont waste your time talking any thing technical when you meet such people perhaps the only time you would meet in your life and he was with his better half , So conversation was general and photo click with him to remember , He was very happy and excited about Tejas progress and saw great prospect for the Bird in the IAF coming from his mouth was satisfaction enough

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 29 Aug 2017 18:07

Thakur_B wrote:Wow, the F136 idiocy has really caught the fancy over here. It's an engine that's huge for an F-16 sized fighter, hell it is 1.5 times the thrust of the engine in f-16. Do people even stop and think before they blurt out their random thoughts ?


We have seen all the engines through this discussion now - F414, EJ200, F110, AL31, 117S, F136. Wait until Izdeliye-30 is available (if at all). We will try to put that on future LCA or AMCA too.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 30 Aug 2017 21:47

Lots of Flight test stories by Tejas this month :)

LSP8 - IFR Testing :!:

LSP7 & LSP4 - Can someone confirm what is being tested on these two :?:

· 3531th flight on 29th Aug
PV5: 172
LSP4: 301
LSP7: 186
LSP8 : 179

· 3496th flight on 31st July
PV5: 165
LSP4: 290
LSP7: 179
LSP8 : 171

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Marten » 30 Aug 2017 23:05

AV, great job tracking this! Good question on LSP 4 as well. We had IFR, Gsh23, BVR, Supersonic tank on the short list.
Guess would be that the gun is being tested along with associated vibration tests for LRUs. BVR + Radome performance on another?

Key data points by Tejas LCA -- Flying Daggers will have 7 birds by Dec 2017. SP5 will be ready soon. So SP7 will be ready soon as well!

Tail nos for LSPs are being masked.Could someone explain the intent or rationale? (Is it because each LSP has a specific feature being tested and we do not want to share info or progress?)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kakarat » 30 Aug 2017 23:11

Marten wrote:Tail nos for LSPs are being masked.Could someone explain the intent or rationale? (Is it because each LSP has a specific feature being tested and we do not want to share info or progress?)


I think those are SP's in airforce service, watch the paint scheme carefully and you will see the difference

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Marten » 30 Aug 2017 23:47

Kakarat wrote:
Marten wrote:Tail nos for LSPs are being masked.Could someone explain the intent or rationale? (Is it because each LSP has a specific feature being tested and we do not want to share info or progress?)


I think those are SP's in airforce service, watch the paint scheme carefully and you will see the difference

Ah! I figured tail nos with LA are already in the public domain. (SP3 == LA001 and so on).
btw, I was mistaken in my previous post -- if LCA admin says the squadron will have 7 by this year end, it means they are expecting 4 in the next three months. Could you please confirm or enlighten?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 31 Aug 2017 00:11

Marten wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
I think those are SP's in airforce service, watch the paint scheme carefully and you will see the difference

Ah! I figured tail nos with LA are already in the public domain. (SP3 == LA001 and so on).
btw, I was mistaken in my previous post -- if LCA admin says the squadron will have 7 by this year end, it means they are expecting 4 in the next three months. Could you please confirm or enlighten?


IAF has SP1-3 with them for sure, SP-4 in all probability has already been handed over a couple of months ago and perhaps SP6 has also joined or about to. SP5 is expected soon to come out of assembly line.

I am expecting upto SP8 to fly by this year end.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kakarat » 31 Aug 2017 00:16

Marten wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
I think those are SP's in airforce service, watch the paint scheme carefully and you will see the difference

Ah! I figured tail nos with LA are already in the public domain. (SP3 == LA001 and so on).
btw, I was mistaken in my previous post -- if LCA admin says the squadron will have 7 by this year end, it means they are expecting 4 in the next three months. Could you please confirm or enlighten?


Actually the AF already has 5
SP1 - LA5001
SP2 - LA5002
SP3 - LA5003
SP4 - LA5004
SP6 - LA5006

The masked aircraft are SP's you will see the difference between the SP and LSP if you closely watch the paint scheme

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Aug 2017 04:52

Gyan wrote:...

That's exactly the point of discussion. That this engine is dead for USA but has lot of value therefore we should co develop with GE a& RR for projects 20 year down the line.


Understand where you're coming from. But, realize Gorshkov was dead for Russia but we decided it could re resurrected from its Baku origins into the Vikramaditya, Which now given its M29K issues seems to be suggested as a (gasp) helicopter carrier ($3.5 billion +).

Long ago, I was a supporter of a F-136 when it lost to the F135. Maturity has me plumping on the side of improving the F135 through operational feedback..

We need to differentiate between science projects and those that add low cost force multipliers to the military.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 31 Aug 2017 12:06

x-posting from Misisles dhaga:

A Sharma wrote:Indian Air Force likely to start trials of Astra missile from today

This series of tests are particularly aimed at testing the seeker of the missile. The seeker provides the missile guidance as it tracks and locates targets. The seeker being tested is a newly developed indigenous system. It is being tested for the second time, defence officials said.


From the news:

“At least eight trials have been planned in this series and if weather permits, the tests would start from Thursday,” the official informed and added that the missile would be fired in a war-like situation.

Last year, the IAF had cleared limited series production of the missile and decided to obtain at least 50 missiles to gauge its performance before giving bulk order for its all fighter aircraft.

The missile tested during last December had successfully demonstrated its aerodynamic characteristics, repeatability, robustness and endurance capability. The IAF and the DRDO are also working on integrating the missile on light combat aircraft Tejas.


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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Aug 2017 12:23

I hope with the Work done on NAG IIR seeker can be used for AAM purposes also next. Our pilots not having a need to converse their AAM's Drop Tanks ordinance etc can be very useful in war. Reading write ups on 1965-71 wars it was noted that components like drop tanks had to be conserved since there was not more than 1 or 2 drop tanks per fighter.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 02 Sep 2017 14:59

3538th flight on 31st Aug
TD1 : 233
PV1: 245
PV3: 387
LSP1: 74
LSP3:328
LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305
PV2: 222
PV5: 173
LSP2: 314
LSP4: 301
LSP7: 189
NP1: 73
LSP8 : 182
PV6:105
NP2: 55


· 3496th flight on 31st July
TD1 : 233
PV1: 245
PV3: 387
LSP1: 74
LSP3:326
LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305
PV2: 222
PV5: 165
LSP2: 314
LSP4: 290
LSP7: 179
NP1: 73
LSP8 : 171
PV6:105
NP2: 55


42 test sorties in a month..!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby fanne » 02 Sep 2017 18:04

Jays or anyone else, only 4-5 planes are flying. Do we know what is being tested. lsp-3 FROM REPROT WAS TO TEST RADAR. what about others?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 02 Sep 2017 19:02

They are opening the envelop with the Derby missile and automatic slow speed recovery, both of which are going very well.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Sep 2017 19:13

Indranil/Jays : Any thing new you want to share on Gun trials & FOC.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Bala Vignesh » 03 Sep 2017 00:31

Rahul M wrote:regarding 2-engine LCA, AMCA is definitely the way to go. with the caveat that AMCA Mk1 should not have any dependency on tech we don't possess right now.
just re-size the LCA to accept 2 engines (F-414 if that's all we have) and re-use whatever subsystems you can from LCA.
forget all unobtainium tech, at most stealthy form factor and internal hardpoints. that's what the original MCA was

Amen to this!! ADA should get some funding and build a few frames just to show the IAF and IN, to show its capabilities, even if it is not ordered into production!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Eric Leiderman » 03 Sep 2017 07:09

AMCA is coming in two variants a stealthy version with no external hard points, and a semi stealthy with external ordinance.
So part of what is being wished for is already being planned. I cannot post a link as I do not remember where I read it.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Pratyush » 03 Sep 2017 10:36

What why have 2 separate versions for a single aircraft. Why not have a single version like the f 35 that has external hard points.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gyan » 03 Sep 2017 10:56

Cosmo_R wrote:
Gyan wrote:...

That's exactly the point of discussion. That this engine is dead for USA but has lot of value therefore we should co develop with GE a& RR for projects 20 year down the line.


Understand where you're coming from. But, realize Gorshkov was dead for Russia but we decided it could re resurrected from its Baku origins into the Vikramaditya, Which now given its M29K issues seems to be suggested as a (gasp) helicopter carrier ($3.5 billion +).

Long ago, I was a supporter of a F-136 when it lost to the F135. Maturity has me plumping on the side of improving the F135 through operational feedback..

We need to differentiate between science projects and those that add low cost force multipliers to the military.


We will not get F135, therefore the logic is to take almost complete F136 for future developments.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2017 11:05

Would it be possible to take AMCA and F136 discussions off the LCA thread?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 03 Sep 2017 11:29

Bala Vignesh wrote:Amen to this!! ADA should get some funding and build a few frames just to show the IAF and IN, to show its capabilities, even if it is not ordered into production!!


Funding eh? SHOULD Get funding hain jee? :lol:

Will tell you how the matriarchal Nair tharavadus used to be run in malloostan. The 'karanavar' (eldest male member) runs the show, keeps all the keys etc, while the women actually owns everything. The "measuring of paddy" is a big ritual, where the 'karanavar' opens the big 'paththaayam' (rice silo) and measures out the rice to meet the expenses. The evil ones used to always trim down the 'allowances' making the women folk to 'make do' with the reduced amount, often resulting in them half starving. I heard this first hand from my mother, who went through this herself.

I am told that ALL the programmes of MK1A/MK2/AMCA were starved out in the past months. I heard from the chaiwala that 'approval' apparently come for some of the programmes, but we are still waiting for it to trickle down for the bid process to restart.

And BTW, the bid process is a friggin tamasha. The budget is always less than the money required. The timeline is always less than what it takes (with solid late delivery penalty which is 10% now), and the spec is never finalized, so that you can ask for freebie extras to what you build.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby tsarkar » 04 Sep 2017 00:07

Dileep wrote:Funding eh? SHOULD Get funding hain jee? :lol:

Will tell you how the matriarchal Nair tharavadus used to be run in malloostan. The 'karanavar' (eldest male member) runs the show, keeps all the keys etc, while the women actually owns everything. The "measuring of paddy" is a big ritual, where the 'karanavar' opens the big 'paththaayam' (rice silo) and measures out the rice to meet the expenses. The evil ones used to always trim down the 'allowances' making the women folk to 'make do' with the reduced amount, often resulting in them half starving. I heard this first hand from my mother, who went through this herself.

I am told that ALL the programmes of MK1A/MK2/AMCA were starved out in the past months. I heard from the chaiwala that 'approval' apparently come for some of the programmes, but we are still waiting for it to trickle down for the bid process to restart.

And BTW, the bid process is a friggin tamasha. The budget is always less than the money required. The timeline is always less than what it takes (with solid late delivery penalty which is 10% now), and the spec is never finalized, so that you can ask for freebie extras to what you build.


That is because of this
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 315709.cms

Though the correct reason for the slowdown is accurately described by Swaminathan Iyer here http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... -slowdown/

Our outgoing Defence minister in his Finance Minister capacity has curtailed spending until clarity emerges on which fighter program to pursue.

The Rafale was an exorbitant bad purchase for a meagre few fighters, however NM pushed for the deal to show his proactiveness on defence modernisation vis-a-vis stagnant MMS & AKA.

I've always maintained India has money for a single fighter program after Su-30 completes production in 2020 and the decision timeline is now.

Remains to be seen if Nirmala Seetharaman chooses Tejas or F-16.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 04 Sep 2017 07:31

We are talking about a few hundred crores of rupees here, for platform technology development. Worth to spend even if the master programme gets scrapped.

Paisa wise rupaiah foolish onlee.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Singha » 04 Sep 2017 08:49

i am pretty sure we will be manufacturing su30 well into the 2020s ... this is not a bad thing imo ... future tranches could be equipped with improved EDE engines and gradually backfitted to older units as their engine pool ages out.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2017 10:33

whatever it is starving out if true for the LCA, Mk11, LCA Navy and AMCA which we need yesterday is pretty wrong.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Yagnasri » 04 Sep 2017 12:10

The first step is the stop this single engine purchase which we are proposing to do immediately. Invest the amount required to produce large numbers 24/36 etc LCAs of Mk1 and Mk2 ( when it arrives) and invest time, money and effort in Mk2 and NLCA.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 04 Sep 2017 12:25

Yagnasri wrote:The first step is the stop this single engine purchase which we are proposing to do immediately. Invest the amount required to produce large numbers 24/36 etc LCAs of Mk1 and Mk2 ( when it arrives) and invest time, money and effort in Mk2 and NLCA.


Who will stop it saar..?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby nash » 04 Sep 2017 12:35

Astra BVRAAM integration work for LCA-Tejas to begin soon: Report
http://idrw.org/astra-bvraam-integratio ... on-report/

Sources close to idrw.org have informed had initial captive flight trials should start onboard LCA-Tejas by mid of next year and if trials go without any hiccups then the Radar integration along with flight trials should commence by end of next year or early in 2019.


May be Tejas-MkIA comes with not only Derby but also Astra.


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