Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

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shaun
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 17 Apr 2019 07:50

Some Erieyes were destroyed in friendly fire , years back.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 17 Apr 2019 08:08

AK phyrrrr!!

Aditya_V
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Apr 2019 12:27

Doesn't the Erieye use Link 16 system which can be used on the by F-16's, so JF 17 will use radio commands only?

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 17 Apr 2019 12:29

JF-17 may have some datalink to communicate with ground stations and ZDK-03. The Pakis have set up a real nutso system thanks to their hodge podge inductions plus lack of local technical capability to fix integration issues.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Wickberg » 18 Apr 2019 03:53

brar_w wrote:
Bart S wrote:
Let us be clear that it is not Saab responsible for this but Ericsson. The GOI should make it's displeasure known by blocking Ericsson from the 5G market, but along with babooze will probably soundly sleep through the whole episode. :(


Ericsson spun off its Military and Space businesses to SAAB more than a decade ago.


SAAB bought Ericsson Mirocowave System in 2006 and before that owned a large percentage of it.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Wickberg » 18 Apr 2019 03:57

Aditya_V wrote:Doesn't the Erieye use Link 16 system which can be used on the by F-16's, so JF 17 will use radio commands only?

Erieye in Sweden use the Swedish system, perhaps it´s possible to program it to use an indignious pakistani system?

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 Apr 2019 05:33

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16

the swedes do have link16 per wiki which the f16 is also fitted with.

for domestic use with gripens they have a higher bw system

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 18 Apr 2019 09:55

Pakistan's JF-17 fighter set for radar upgrade: Chinese report

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2019/ ... inese.html

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby VikramA » 18 Apr 2019 10:07

Austin wrote:Pakistan's JF-17 fighter set for radar upgrade: Chinese report

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2019/ ... inese.html


This is improbable at this time as Chinese aircraft AESA is still in testing phase and far from a deployable product, unless due to time constraints the pakis have decided to fit aesa solution from Saab in initial blk 3 aircraft

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 18 Apr 2019 15:51

VikramA wrote:
Austin wrote:Pakistan's JF-17 fighter set for radar upgrade: Chinese report

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2019/ ... inese.html


This is improbable at this time as Chinese aircraft AESA is still in testing phase and far from a deployable product, unless due to time constraints the pakis have decided to fit aesa solution from Saab in initial blk 3 aircraft


Erh, unfortunately the J-10C, J-16 and J-20 all field AESA. There had been too many hints at previous airshows and exhibits that an AESA was coming for the Blunder.

This is not a new development. Whether their AESA is any good is another question.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Apr 2019 16:21

Chinese claim many things, but like every country I think it will take soem time before thier AESA become operational, AESA on JF-17 will take some time.

Pakis and Chinese in 2012 were claiming Jf-17 will have Air to Air to refueling, BVR etc. But even now these capabilities are not there. AESA's are expensive and I think it will take atleast 10 years before they are integrated onto JF-17, they will also need to change the other electronics, Analogue FBW for additional weight etc. It is now not a USB plug and play.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 18 Apr 2019 16:40

^^^ True it might take awhile for the Bandar but it is incorrect to say they do not have an AESA operational since it had been observed on multiple chini platforms and AESA systems like the KlJ-7A and others had been hawked at airshows and exhibit for years. They are selling the stuff.

Unless they are out to embarrass themselves by selling a capacity they don't have, I would give them a benefit of the doubt there.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 21 Apr 2019 08:01

This is where the Pakis have us beat. The JF-17 -- because of the chini connection -- have models among gora enthusiasts. There are a complete paucity of anything for the Tejas if someone wanted one.



Image

Image

Image

We are forced to make do with self made models for Tejas:
Last edited by chola on 21 Apr 2019 08:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chiru » 21 Apr 2019 08:06

Off topic,

Chola saar. There is one resource for scale modeling in 1:100. Its called paper model as it's made of paper. I just built this a month ago Image

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 21 Apr 2019 08:19

^^^ Wonderful model, Chiru Saar! That is a beautiful piece!

Better detailed than this $300 USD model on EBay:

Image

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 21 Apr 2019 19:47

Pakis are getting 30 used Mirage 5 from Egypt. These were modernized in 2008 and come equipped with RC400 radars, MWR, Helmet mounted display and night fighting capability.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 21 Apr 2019 20:17

Any evidence they were modernized? Any links. Some sites note they are spares supplies basically.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 21 Apr 2019 21:26

It was a defence AV on Youtube i saw, trying to find it. Here is a report from defenceworld, FWIW.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/24626#.XLyO5khKjIU

Pakistan is set to ink a deal with Egypt for a batch of Mirage 5 fighters.

The contract with Egypt had been under negotiation for a couple of years, and now PAF is set to receive the fighters belonging to the Egyptian Air Force.

International journalist Alan Warne, associated with Asian Military Review revealed the development during an interview with Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief Mujahid Anwar Khan when the two also talked about February 27 aerial skirmish with India, JF-17 Block 3, etc.

"Mirage 5 is a deal that has been under negotiation for a couple of years now. But has now been sealed. The bulk will be used to support current fleet but we could see some becoming operational too,” Warne stated in his report.

Pakistan was offered 30 Mirage aircraft by Egypt to supplement PAF’s existing fleet of Mirages. The Horus Mirage 5 aircraft were updated in Egypt in 2008. The upgrades include RC400 radar, MAWS, mission pods, HMD, night strike capability etc.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Zynda » 21 Apr 2019 21:42

I hope the above news spurs our acquisition of Qatar & Taiwan M2Ks in the short-term. Also we need to close 21 MiG-29s ASAP.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 21 Apr 2019 23:40

Second hand purchases are a bad idea because one doesn’t know the wear original user put them through.

Better idea is to ramp up Tejas production at Bangalore and Nashik and complete Mk1A / MWF development on a war footing

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby ragupta » 21 Apr 2019 23:47

Just ramp Tejas production and stop collecting and eyeing musuem pieces.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 22 Apr 2019 00:58

Question to ponder is why would Egypt sell something if it is an effective and capable platform? They are not exactly awash in $$ to buy anything to replace these birds or are not getting anything for free like the F16's it received.

I think pakis are going to cannibalize these planes for spares to keep their original fleet operational.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby John » 22 Apr 2019 02:15

Vips wrote:Question to ponder is why would Egypt sell something if it is an effective and capable platform? They are not exactly awash in $$ to buy anything to replace these birds or are not getting anything for free like the F16's it received.

I think pakis are going to cannibalize these planes for spares to keep their original fleet operational.

These deals are rampant in corruption even Mushy admitted that PAF would overpay in these deals and the kickbacks from other countries would line the pockets of Pakistani generals in offshore accounts ( see panama papers).

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 Apr 2019 09:16

Vips wrote:Question to ponder is why would Egypt sell something if it is an effective and capable platform? They are not exactly awash in $$ to buy anything to replace these birds or are not getting anything for free like the F16's it received.

I think pakis are going to cannibalize these planes for spares to keep their original fleet operational.


Your article itself has the PAF Chief, the only cited source, openly state these are Christmas tree planes.

Clearly, the Pakis are in a bad place as they cant afford even the JF17 to replace these old Mirage 5s in service and are resorting to these measures to keep such extremely old airframes alive.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 Apr 2019 09:17

John wrote:
Vips wrote:Question to ponder is why would Egypt sell something if it is an effective and capable platform? They are not exactly awash in $$ to buy anything to replace these birds or are not getting anything for free like the F16's it received.

I think pakis are going to cannibalize these planes for spares to keep their original fleet operational.

These deals are rampant in corruption even Mushy admitted that PAF would overpay in these deals and the kickbacks from other countries would line the pockets of Pakistani generals in offshore accounts ( see panama papers).


The ZDK03 AWACs being another such deal.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 22 Apr 2019 14:33

The LKF601E one of the AESA solutions being hawked for the FC-1/JF-17 Bandar.

Image
Image
Image
Image

The brochure tells us that the current Bandar radar range is 80KM lol

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 Apr 2019 14:42

LOL.. no wonder they had such a tough time with the RDY2 equipped Mirages... their radar range was significantly lesser, and worsened by jamming. :mrgreen:

The other JF-17 AESA contender which is also offering its radars for Flankers, J-20 is from CETC, the same radar company whose AWACS couldn't be used over land. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Apr 2019 14:44

I doubt present JF17 can detect Fighters at 80 Km, may be a 747 yes.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 22 Apr 2019 14:47

chola wrote:The brochure tells us that the current Bandar radar range is 80KM lol


If for brochure it is 80, you can image the real range. Moreover it is search range.. not tracking.

I have mentioned about this range several times and one of the reason I am still not convinced JF17 is BVR capable.

And the claim of 170KM for AESA is even bizzare. If it does not have enough power for more than 80km search, how will it get power for 180KM search? Adding more AESA modules does not give "extra" power.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 22 Apr 2019 14:48

This is the odds on favorite for the Bandar Block III AESA -- the KJL-7A
Image
Image

Made by the same firm (NRIET) who makes the current radar.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 22 Apr 2019 15:12

Karan M wrote:The other JF-17 AESA contender which is also offering its radars for Flankers, J-20 is from CETC, the same radar company whose AWACS couldn't be used over land. :mrgreen:


nam wrote:
chola wrote:The brochure tells us that the current Bandar radar range is 80KM lol


If for brochure it is 80, you can image the real range. Moreover it is search range.. not tracking.

I have mentioned about this range several times and one of the reason I am still not convinced JF17 is BVR capable.

And the claim of 170KM for AESA is even bizzare. If it does not have enough power for more than 80km search, how will it get power for 180KM search? Adding more AESA modules does not give "extra" power.


@Karan and Nam ji, one thing you can say about the chinis is they have multiple (usually cheap) options whether it is a LED TV or an AESA radar set. Never have one firm make something when you can have many to drive prices down further.

The LKF601E maker is saying that they are 100KM better than the mechanically steered planar array (made by another agency) currently used. It is adversarial marketing against a rival; which might make the old claim of 80km more accurate and the new claim of 170km less so.)

I sure they can get a monkey version of what they have in the J-20. That actually would be better for us from what I'm reading. The losers in the J-20 (or J-16 or J-10C) competition might be under less regulation than the winning agency to throttle down capability since the PLA is not using them.
Last edited by chola on 22 Apr 2019 15:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 Apr 2019 15:24

What lot of options? There are only 2 labs for airborne radar. NRIET aka CETC and this one LETRI. In our case we have multiple import options assembled at HAL, BEL, and now in all likelihood, Tata SED versus DRDOs radars assembled at BEL.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 22 Apr 2019 15:34

Karan M wrote:What lot of options? There are only 2 labs for airborne radar. NRIET aka CETC and this one LETRI. In our case we have multiple import options assembled at HAL, BEL, and now in all likelihood, Tata SED versus DRDOs radars assembled at BEL.


You are right, Karan ji. I re-edited and switched wording to multiple options instead.

Still it is safe to say they have multiple domestic solutions. And though their import solutions might not be as above board as ours, the Brits still work with them and Israelis have been their partners for ages. The Phalcon was originally paid for by chini money and would have been theirs if it were not for the US putting a stop to it.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 22 Apr 2019 15:44

chola wrote:This is the odds on favorite for the Bandar Block III AESA -- the KJL-7A


I doubt it. I am more inclined it will that "air cooled" thing. Simple reason: Power requirement.

The number of TRM on KJL-7A is far too much for the 82KN RD33 Engine to power. Uttam has around 750 TRM, simply because the 89KN Engine can only provide power for that many TRM.

And here the claim is that 82KN engine on JF17 will power 1000 TRMs! So either their bluffing or their power rating on the TRM is worse than us or their MTBO for the TRM is low.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 22 Apr 2019 15:50

^^^ Good point, Nam ji. But if you read the press clippings, the KJL-7A seems to be the one mentioned for the Block 3. Almost like a foregone conclusion if one reads the tea leaves, i.e. paki sites. Hardly hear of the air cooled one.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 24 Apr 2019 17:51

chola wrote:
Karan M wrote:What lot of options? There are only 2 labs for airborne radar. NRIET aka CETC and this one LETRI. In our case we have multiple import options assembled at HAL, BEL, and now in all likelihood, Tata SED versus DRDOs radars assembled at BEL.


You are right, Karan ji. I re-edited and switched wording to multiple options instead.

Still it is safe to say they have multiple domestic solutions. And though their import solutions might not be as above board as ours, the Brits still work with them and Israelis have been their partners for ages. The Phalcon was originally paid for by chini money and would have been theirs if it were not for the US putting a stop to it.


Again, where are these multiple options? They have 2 labs. They have the Russians but as clear with the Su-35, if they now want anything from the Russians, they have to buy multiple platforms. For getting a look at the Irbis-E and AL-41's whatever, they had to buy 48 Su-35s, which number they gladly paid for (most wouldn't), clearly indicates the all-singing and dancing J-20 has issues.

The Israelis are now no longer supplying them AESA or critical fab stuff because the US is upset at them. There was a hue and cry over some copypasta Chinese firm advertising AESAs which turned out to be crap.
The Brits are not working for them for the radars.

Indian options include the domestic Uttam. Leonardo Raven. Thales AESA from the RBE-2. Israeli EL/M-2052 which we are inducting. Plus the Zhuk AESA's which Russia is ok to export to us because we don't so brazenly violate IPR. SAAB is also offering us a variant of their PS/05 with an AESA antenna. Then there are the US offers.

In fact, seeing the specifications of the Chinese radars, and the ZDK-03, KLJ-7 related events on the 27th of Feb show, its fair to say the manner in which China has frittered money across multiple programs etc ends up costing them the kind of focused progress that would have been otherwise possible with a more limited set of programs. We are in striking distance of a functional FCR with Uttam, and as the AEW&CS program shows, our test methodology & development aims are built around actual operational usability.

The PRC's airborne AESA's remain doubtful. Their ground based systems basically operate in a much easier look up mode.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 24 Apr 2019 17:53

nam wrote:
chola wrote:This is the odds on favorite for the Bandar Block III AESA -- the KJL-7A


I doubt it. I am more inclined it will that "air cooled" thing. Simple reason: Power requirement.

The number of TRM on KJL-7A is far too much for the 82KN RD33 Engine to power. Uttam has around 750 TRM, simply because the 89KN Engine can only provide power for that many TRM.

And here the claim is that 82KN engine on JF17 will power 1000 TRMs! So either their bluffing or their power rating on the TRM is worse than us or their MTBO for the TRM is low.


We have to look at the power/TRM to correlate with TRM #, and also the various other details like loss in TX/RX parts in the AESA, the quality of signal processing (ability to extract targets against clutter), sophistication of beam control (against maneuvering targets) and finally data processing.

The radar designer who does more, offers equivalent performance with less power is the more capable and sophisticated one. That also leaves more power for the avionics, EW etc

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2019 00:13

Folks i was asked a question. How many combat squadrons PAF has now?

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby mmasand » 25 Apr 2019 00:49

Pakistan Navy successfully test-fires missile in Arabian Sea

The Pakistan Navy on Tuesday successfully test-fired a missile capable of hitting targets from sea to sea as well as sea to surface, according to a Navy spokesperson.

The locally developed missile (Naswar packed joint) was tested from "Fast Attack Craft" in northern Arabian Sea, and it successfully hit its intended on-land target, the spokesperson said.

"This test is a testimony of Pakistan's proficiency with high-tech weaponry and Pakistan Navy's operational capability," he said, adding that it also "is a clear manifestation of the government's resolve to achieve self reliance in this field".

Vice Chief of the Naval Staff Vice Admiral, Kaleem Shaukat, observed the test-firing from PNS Moawin and expressed his satisfaction with the operational preparations of the Nave's fleet.

The Vice Chief of the Naval Staff reaffirmed "the resolve of Pakistan Navy to ensure seaward defence and safeguard national maritime interests at all costs".

He also acknowledged the services of engineers and researchers that played a role in the success of the missile system, the Navy spokesperson added.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 25 Apr 2019 01:15

ramana wrote:Folks i was asked a question. How many combat squadrons PAF has now?


Around 19 full strength and some 4 partial strength ones at CCS.


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