Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

[kit]

Whats so funny abt that ... yankees know capabilities of their gear on f 16 s and how to fool it....

Which is why i specifically mentioned it was for rona-dhona and conspiracy theories on the D&D forums...

The F16 software esp its fire control system *will* not lock onto *friendly* forces identified by certain signals., and its not the IFF

[Manish_P]

Happened to visit the D&D forum after a few years.

The dominant 'consensus' on the new revelations of the OBL raid is that the F16s were not just airborne but were actually providing top cover to the US raiders

A distant second it that a hero flying a F16 locked 3-4 times on the exfiltrating Helis but the scared and possibly corrupt seniors back at HQ dithered on giving him permission to fire and so he had to break lock & disengage

[ashbhee]

Where are they going to get spares for these antique T 55s ? : https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2020/03/3 ... o-pakistan
Is this just for Generals to make sure commission.

[ArjunPandit]

Happened to visit the D&D forum after a few years.

The dominant 'consensus' on the new revelations of the OBL raid is that the F16s were not just airborne but were actually providing top cover to the US raiders

A distant second it that a hero flying a F16 locked 3-4 times on the exfiltrating Helis but the scared and possibly corrupt seniors back at HQ dithered on giving him permission to fire and so he had to break lock & disengage

the myths of BAF...PA was only worried that their nukes are under attack...

[Ganesh_S]

This time a PAF Musharraf trainer along with both its pilots bites the dust.
https://youtu.be/xGzsu9HU-Lk

[Rohit_K]

Video of it going down - https://twitter.com/ia_rajpoot/status/1 ... 7554299904

[Ganesh_S]

Apparently it was a PA training mission aircraft not PAF.

[Kartik]

5 Paki pilots have died in 2020, in 5 air crashes.

1 FT-7 crashed (7 Jan 2020), 2 pilots Squadron Leader Haris bin Khalid and Flying Officer Ibaad ur Rehman died
1 Mirage crashed, pilot ejected
1 T-37C crashed, pilots ejected
1 F-16 crashed, pilot Wing Cmdr Noman Akram died
1 Mushak crashed, 2 pilots Major Umer, an instructor pilot, and Lieutenant Faizan died (PA pilots)

[Prithwiraj]

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/big-setba ... st-failure


Babur 2 Missile suffered a failure.....

Big Setback For Pakistan As Its Under-Development Babur-II Cruise Missile Crashes In Second Consecutive Test

In a major setback for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s efforts to build a 750-kilometer range ground-launched cruise missile Babur-II, the delivery platform crashed merely two minutes after traversing a distance of 14-kilometers from the point of launch, reports Hindustan Times.

The latest crash of Pakistan’s Babur-II cruise missile platform marks the second consecutive test failure, as it had met a similar fate on 10 April 2018.

It should be noted that Pakistan has been engaging with China to build cruise missiles with terrain hugging and sea-skimming capabilities to match the abilities of Indian 1,000-kilometers range cruise missile Nirbhay which has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Pakistan’s cruise missile platforms are derivatives of Chinese C-602 and C-802 missiles. It is presently also trying to develop an air-launched cruise missile called RAAD.

Meanwhile, the Indian Nirbhay cruise missile platform has already undergone six test trials of which the last one witnessed the platform successfully meeting all mission objectives.

[sum]

Suffering a failure is worrying since it means they are trying something more than just paintjobs.

I wish to go back to days of 400% success rate

[Aditya_V]

They would not acknowledge a failure unless it was the time of launch in front of enough people that it would cause embarrassment as too many people would have videos of it. They are still custom paint jobs by the manufacturer.

[VinodTK]

From Forbs: Mystery Submarine In Service With Pakistan’s Navy SEALs

ome of the best-kept secrets are hidden in plain sight. Sitting on the quayside at PNS Iqbal, a special naval base in Karachi, Pakistan, is a submarine that you won’t find in any reference books, including my own World Submarines Covert Shores Recognition Guide. To my knowledge this will be the first article detailing this submarine, which appears to be in service with Pakistani Navy SEALs.

The submarine is a small special forces type, measuring around 55 feet long by 7 to 8 feet across. That is a fraction of the size of a regular submarine. Its location and size both point to use by the Pakistani Navy's Special Service Group, known as SSG (N). They are equivalent to the U.S. Navy SEALs and use the 'SEAL' terminology. They have a long tradition of training with the American unit.

This category of submarine is called an X-Craft in Pakistani Navy parlance. The term was inherited from the Italian manufacturer Cos.Mo.S (commonly written Cosmos) who sold Pakistan two sets of midget submarines in the past. The Italian firm itself borrowed the term from the Royal Navy midget submarines of World War II. The American equivalent to the X-Craft is the Dry Combat Submersible (DCS) now entering service with the U.S. Navy SEALs.

It may be intended to replace the Pakistani Navy's existing X-Craft. Pakistan operates three MG-110 X-Craft which were built locally between 1993 and 1996. They are getting long in the tooth and are due for replacement. But the Italian firm which designed them, Cos.Mo.S was closed down twenty years ago. Today its designs are continued by respected Italian manufacturer Drass. They offer a series of modern X-Craft that may be ideal for Pakistan.

But this mystery submarine does not appear to be a Drass design. The smallest publicly revealed Drass design is the DG-85, which is slightly larger than the boat seen in Pakistan.

One clue is that the boat first appeared in 2016. This may tie to a statement in the Pakistani Defence Production Division (MoDP) 2015-16 yearbook. It listed the "Indigenous design and construction of 01 Midget Submarine" as a target for 2016-2017.

[MeshaVishwas]

Interesting. With the upcoming Hangor class of subs, Pakis will gain more knowledge on sub building.
I doubt that this sub built a few years ago was any good, probably involved lot of Ex Agosta manpower to keep them engaged as well.
The singular focus they have on their Sub fleet is telling.They expect the Jinnah Class/Zulfiqar Class/054AP Class to be at the bottom of the sea when Pakistan hits the fan.

[Bart S]

What do they need a midget submarine for? Training for the next 26/11?

[MeshaVishwas]

Attack on critical Mil Infra like INS Kadamba?
IIRC, we had upgraded our underwater perimeter security at Mumbai with an Israeli system which deals with mines/saboteurs etc.
Unable to find that article now.

[sudeepj]

How will the midget sub get to Kadamba or Mumbai.. It will have to be towed there. Whatever vulnerabilities there might have been, would have been addressed after the Mumbai attack. With so many P8s, Dorniers and who knows what else.. I really pity the Pak Navy. They are going to be mauled so bad in the next round.

[dinesh_kimar]

I really pity the Pak Navy. They are going to be mauled so bad in the next round.

Maybe. Maybe not.

One of our IN Admirals had recently written an article stating that PNs Submarine force have following advantages.

- all are AIP equipped for high endurance- MESMA fuel cell.

- possess towed array sonars which we do not (Akula ?)

Also, I speculate that they defend much lesser coastline, and more availability than ours, as refits are done in house.

They have had Exocet and Harpoon availability for many years now.

During Balakot, detecting the lone available submarine was given very high priority by IN.

[ArjunPandit]

Attack on critical Mil Infra like INS Kadamba?
IIRC, we had upgraded our underwater perimeter security at Mumbai with an Israeli system which deals with mines/saboteurs etc.
Unable to find that article now.

My hunch is it will be a transport to gee-hardys by towing through ships etc...or may be hostile takeover of a civilian carog shipI doubt they will directly attack Indian navy facilities. .attack on indian navy opens up many options for India. If they will get hammered badly..they might have strengths..but we have huge numerical and qualitative advantage and i sincerely hope that we have learnt from our balakot experience

[Gerard]

Pakistan Navy successfully test-fires anti-ship missiles

[VinodTK]

Pakistan move surface to air missile to border with India - shock satellite pictures

Satellite images surfaced on social media reportedly show the Pakistani Army back in February re-deploying its Surface to Air Missile system. The LY-80 missile is thought to have been strategically moved to a base in the city of Lahore. It is understood the weapon was first moved to the region back in December 2019.

Lahore is located just 14 miles (24km) from Wagah-Attari border between India and Pakistan.

The LY-80 also known as HQ16A is a Chinese-manufactured medium-range missile system - which was introduced into the Chinese armed forces in 2011.

The devastating HQ-16A is able to engage aerial targets at high altitude and can intercept targets at distance of 24 miles (40km).
:
:

A blurry image embedded in the news article.

[Aditya_V]

Moved to Lahore like in Mar 19 one of them was spotted in Central Karachi. They dont want to keep them in the forests around Muzaffarabad and Chakoti after 26 Feb 19 for some reason.

But the induction and procurement of VT 4 Tanks and self Propelled "105"mm artillery is worrying, the only reason they would need self propelled 105mm instead of 155mm(they have enough M109's) would be they are planning something in High altitude areas, the VT4 tanks will be deployed in Defense in some other sector.

[khan]

But the induction and procurement of VT 4 Tanks and self Propelled "105"mm artillery is worrying, the only reason they would need self propelled 105mm instead of 155mm(they have enough M109's) would be they are planning something in High altitude areas, the VT4 tanks will be deployed in Defense in some other sector.

IMO, they are upto something.

They don’t have the $ to sustain this spend indefinately. Their acquisitions seem very strategic to me - even JF-17 (which we like to mock) armed with a BVR missile is a formidable threat that could take some time to counter.

Unlike India, the Pakistani’s have shown themselves capable of spending months (maybe now years) planning foolhardy operations as if it is some silver bullet for their problems.

They just need local parity/superiority in some sector for a few days when they make their move.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/CestMoiz/status/126 ... 39584?s=20 ---> PAF = Pakistan Air Force, or PizzaHut Air Force?
Hint: Check out the arm patch the Paki pilot is wearing!

[ArjunPandit]

whats the infatuation with lal topi...is it zaid hamid air force?

[Gerard]

As Pak army pushes for 20% hike in budget, India’s ‘I told you so moment’

[Kartik]

Saab secures Erieye order from undisclosed customer

Saab has been contracted to deliver an unspecified number of Erieye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) systems to an undisclosed customer, the Swedish manufacturer announced on 18 May.

The systems, which will be hosted aboard a Saab 2000 twin-turboprop aircraft, are valued at SEK1.553 billion (USD160 million) and will be delivered between 2020 and 2023.

“The industry’s nature is such that due to circumstances concerning the product and customer, further information about the customer will not be announced,” Saab said.

While Saab declined to provide further details, the nature of the system, the contract value, and the delivery timelines all indicate that the order is likely to be for between two and three systems.

Given that Saab’s primary AEW&C offering is the Bombardier 6000/6500-based GlobalEye, utilising the Erieye Extended-Range (ER) radar, it is likely that the Saab 2000-based platforms are for a follow-on customer looking to augment their existing fleet, rather than a new customer looking to acquire the latest solution. The only two customers already known to operate the Saab 2000 AEW&C are Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

..

Looks like Pakistan could be the customer for the Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&Cs. Meanwhile, the IAF will wait for the bigger, more capable and far more expensive AWACS rather than ordering more Netra AEW&C.

[Indranil]

Upgrade those Avros and put a beam on top!

[nam]

We cannot prioritize anything before the Rafale. AWACS, Refuelers, LCA, MRSAM all have to wait, until the dream of Rafale in form of MRCA 2 has been fulfilled.

It has been almost 1.5 years since Balakot, zero movement on AWACS program. Neither EMB or A330.

Even I am now hoping someone upgrade the Avro engines and put a balance beam on it..

[BajKhedawal]

Gray colored PAF cargo plane spotted at BWI (Baltimore-Washington Thrugood Marshal Airport) today May 18th 2020 at noonish local time.

Probably come to pick up on some freebies from massa, or drop off some pure grade afgan stuff.

airport staff noticed as it was unusual to see paf pappies at that airport.

plane itself must be a bakshish from massa

[sajaym]

Meanwhile, the IAF will wait for the bigger, more capable and far more expensive AWACS rather than ordering more Netra AEW&C.

Upgrade those Avros and put a beam on top!

The IAF now has no option but to opt for expensive AWACs. The 27th Feb 2019 airbattle showed that the PAF have no qualms about letting loose long-range AAMs from inside their territories while the IAF cannot do so due to ROEs and other imposed Alok Nath-isms. So this creates the scenario that PAF can invest in short range, turbo prop, cheapo AWACs since they can happily fly around in their airspace knowing fully well they're safe from IAFs' long-range AAMs. Whereas the IAF needs to keep it's AWACs far-far away from the trigger happy PAF fizzles & their Chopsuey friends and also invest more on fighters like Rafale. Even in the worst case scenario that a PAF AWACs does get downed, they can always claim it never happened...but not so with the IAF where if an AWACs bird goes down, there will be a huge uproar and emotional atyachaar on TV.

[basant]

FWIW....

Source: https://twitter.com/TheBTornado/status/ ... 1778707458

Also see Senior Pak Army General kept under house arrest for opposing Bajwa's tenure extension: Report

The Tornado
@TheBTornado
·
4h
#BigBreaking : Flag of Pakistan Army's Lt. Gen Sarfaraz Sattar (Ex DG SPD) is missing.

He was In line to be Flag of PakistanArmy CAOS, and the one who objected on extension of Bajwa.

He was forced to step down back in December 19, After a week's house arrest, He resigned.

Is this a planned execution?

[Kartik]

Meanwhile, the IAF will wait for the bigger, more capable and far more expensive AWACS rather than ordering more Netra AEW&C.

Upgrade those Avros and put a beam on top!

The IAF now has no option but to opt for expensive AWACs. The 27th Feb 2019 airbattle showed that the PAF have no qualms about letting loose long-range AAMs from inside their territories while the IAF cannot do so due to ROEs and other imposed Alok Nath-isms. So this creates the scenario that PAF can invest in short range, turbo prop, cheapo AWACs since they can happily fly around in their airspace knowing fully well they're safe from IAFs' long-range AAMs. Whereas the IAF needs to keep it's AWACs far-far away from the trigger happy PAF fizzles & their Chopsuey friends and also invest more on fighters like Rafale. Even in the worst case scenario that a PAF AWACs does get downed, they can always claim it never happened...but not so with the IAF where if an AWACs bird goes down, there will be a huge uproar and emotional atyachaar on TV.

Nothing of that sort. The Netra was far enough from the border to not be bothered by PAF jets on the night that our jets attacked Balakot.

A Netra flying 150 km within Indian territory is safe from any PAF attacks from across the border, but can see over 100-150 km into Pakistani territory and almost all of their air bases are well within that range of the border.

If the IAF wasn't so drunk on imports and wanting only the best of the best, they'd have ordered 4-5 more Netras as soon as they found out that the Netra was exceeding expectations through it's performance.

[sum]

^^ Heartbreaking to have seen this fiasco literally happen in front of the eyes over the last decade.

Even when the initial Netra prototype was ready in the late 2000s and IAF placed orders of 3, i remember the huge hue and cry on BRF to go and book a larger order( even if the product isnt 400% better than foreign maal) since there would be something which would derail the further orders and exactly same thing happened ( blacklisting of the aircraft co).

And now we are in this sorry state ( Im 400% sure no foreign AWACs order will go through for long time to see with the current $$ shortage and the desi one wont be ready for a decade at the bare minimum and the Netra story has pretty much ended with these 3 prototypes)

^^ Sorry for the rant and is OT. So will stop

[Karan M]

Gents - the Netra if I am not mistaken got FOC just the last year and hence is now established. Developing it to IAF specs took us almost a decade. This is the "capability" curve DRDO had to demonstrate, and now it has done so, expect further orders, provided the IAF and DRDO can zero in on a suitable platform.

From the IAF's POV, they are resource constrained. Going all in on indigenous capability, only to find it doesn't work out means they can lose conflicts. This is the fear they are always under. How can this be managed? Answer is budgetary. Countries like China bought Flankers, S-300s en masse, till local equivalents got ready. In our case too, something similar is what the IAF is proposing with the MRCA and then the MWF/AMCA. Its not easy though.
Because budgets are always limited with our huge social spends (which are still not enough), it means one or the other always loses out, and the indigenous option is usually the victim.

But what I am saying is people keep referring to corruption, lure for natashas etc. That's not the actual answer when the issue is more systemic. The lack of clearance for IAF to have a full blown engineering development organization, and the limited budget.

On the plus side, the DRDO's budget is steadily growing. Despite all the challenges it faces, its now at the $2 Billion yearly level. Thales R&D spend is around $1Bn Euro in its internally funded R&D (state/customer funded R&D will be additional). Tubitak Sage (Turkeys national R&D org) and Aselsan R&D spend add up to around a $ Billion. Again, even adding a buffer per other contracts, even taking out the recurring costs - manpower, etc for DRDO, the fact is that we are now inching towards the big leagues. DRDO's spend is distributed over far more programs, and hence its impact is reduced, because our manpower costs are low, and we are developing product after product, which is a very positive thing. For the IAF chief to openly state desi products can be procured and they are doing OK is not a small deal.

The key thing to do now is to infuse more accountability via service program managers especially in the production side (BEL, HAL, OFB etc), get them engineering program development houses w/at least project management tenures, and build up R&D spend on the manufacturing side (BEL, HAL, OFB). Aselsan for instance spends 33% of its Revenue on R&D, whereas BEL is at 9.4%.
While the private sector, especially MSME's need heavy financial and fiscal support in terms of eased liquidity to scale up, DRDO et al can provide a list of proven vendors. Also, by opening up procurement to private vendors, especially OFBs portion, you allow them to make enough margin to reinvest in R&D. Several already have.

On the AWACS side, the combination of substantial domestic and imported radar deployment plus IACCS basically means the medium, to high alt coverage over Pak is effectively managed even without AWACS (unless terrain gets in the way). AWACS are essential for low alt coverage and accompanying strike packages so they don't get surprised by low flying ambushers.

[Prithwiraj]

With Embraer almost certain to be lapped up by Chinese after failed Boeing take over chances and possibilities of additional E-190 is remote now.

[MeshaVishwas]

PAF run Paki Intermittent Airline attains shuhada in Krachi.

[chetonzz]

sir i dont know why...but i feel - soon we will get videos of "pilot/crew/passengers shouting AOA" and stories of brave PAF-turned-commercial pilot saving a lot more lives on ground "calmly" looking for "lower density spots" to do """"emergency landing""""

[Kartik]

Yes, they have a habit of turning mistakes into careful deliberate decisions. That pilot that crashed in his F-16 clearly made an error but those Paki buffoons turned him into a hero claiming he avoided civilian areas, when he clearly had no time to do anything but try and pull up.

Pakistan runs on fake narratives of bravery and martyrdom. It is the fuel that runs their passion, when facts reveal they're pretty much a failed nation in most respects.

[BajKhedawal]

Gray colored PAF cargo plane spotted at BWI (Baltimore-Washington Thrugood Marshal Airport) today May 18th 2020 at noonish local time.

Probably come to pick up on some freebies from massa, or drop off some pure grade afgan stuff.

airport staff noticed as it was unusual to see paf pappies at that airport.

plane itself must be a bakshish from massa

Got Images:

[Aditya_V]

Gray colored PAF cargo plane spotted at BWI (Baltimore-Washington Thrugood Marshal Airport) today May 18th 2020 at noonish local time.

Probably come to pick up on some freebies from massa, or drop off some pure grade afgan stuff.

airport staff noticed as it was unusual to see paf pappies at that airport.

plane itself must be a bakshish from massa

Got Images: