Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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Cain Marko
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Cain Marko »

nam wrote:Not sure what is the hold up. Based on the recent purchase plans with extra Rafales waiting in the wings, money doesn't seem to be a problem. Neither is tech. HAL would take couple of Su30 and prototype the upgrade with a version of Uttam.

Only IAF knows why we haven't even started with a prototype.
My guess:
The mki as is, is very powerful with periodic in house upgrades ensuring it's edge.
The IAF wants a solid and distinctly better radar performance than existing bars, which is not easily forthcoming. Also shows that the bars continues to remain very relevant today.
Iaf may want to see what happens with the izd 30 engines and then do a proper mlu. This may also mean other pakfa systems becoming mature.

Until then we'll keep seeing incremental upgrades as in the ew suite, and weapons carriage.

Jmt
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

But that shouldn't stop IAF for asking HAL to create a prototype with some of the key upgrades and run the trials. More they delay it, more longer it will take to start rolling out the updates.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

brar_w wrote:The USAF demonstrated dual and multi pulse motor long before the US Army operationalized a SAM with a dual pulse motor. It is a requirement thing not something you try out with one product over another first. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the export version has a simpler, downgraded single pulse SRM while the version the PLAF operates has a higher performance motor.
If Pl15E is so much dumbed down version of PL15, then why even call it PL15. Why not hype up PL12 as PL12-ER & maintain the legendary status of Pl15.

And of the 3 JF17 users, only PAF would want a longer A2A to maintain the facade - So PL15E is for PAF's vanity purposes, even if the radar cant possibly deploy the range (possibly). so much mehnat for a vanity missile. PLA is in show business also. If they have dual pulse motor to show - they will parade it as the next F35 killer.
brar_w
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by brar_w »

YashG wrote:
brar_w wrote:The USAF demonstrated dual and multi pulse motor long before the US Army operationalized a SAM with a dual pulse motor. It is a requirement thing not something you try out with one product over another first. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the export version has a simpler, downgraded single pulse SRM while the version the PLAF operates has a higher performance motor.
If Pl15E is so much dumbed down version of PL15, then why even call it PL15. Why not hype up PL12 as PL12-ER & maintain the legendary status of Pl15.

And of the 3 JF17 users, only PAF would want a longer A2A to maintain the facade - So PL15E is for PAF's vanity purposes, even if the radar cant possibly deploy the range (possibly). so much mehnat for a vanity missile. PLA is in show business also. If they have dual pulse motor to show - they will parade it as the next F35 killer.
That makes little sense to me. If it is a version of the PL-15, why call it the PL-12 (when those missile variants are exported/marketed separately)? Logically it would carry an export designation which it seems to do which is something they seem to be doing more of with their air to air and air to surface weapons. Since it is being marketed at an air-show it would make sense for them to market something they can potentially sell (the J-31 has been doing the marketing rounds at their air show events for a while now as it has not (until recently) been domestically adopted for induction/development). I find it difficult to comprehend why producing a dual pulse rocket motor in this category would be considered beyond the Chinese level of capability and am yet to read a credible thesis casting doubts on their ability to produce such a SRM for a missile clearly aimed at longer range than the PL-12. Western missile designers were pitching dual-pulse motors for this missile class back in the mid 1990's for induction in the early to mid 2000s so it isn't too far fetched to expect the Chinese to have developed and fielded something like that 15 or more years later.
If they have dual pulse motor to show - they will parade it as the next F35 killer.
Well clearly it seems unlikely that they have a dual pulse export PL-15 available at this time so it is impossible to show it as an export weapon. Perhaps the export version has other things missing that the domestic variant has. That would seem logical and isn't totally unexpected.
Last edited by brar_w on 29 Sep 2021 05:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

I like the transperency from Martin Baker- is there a similair list for ejections from Aces II seats from F-16's?

https://twitter.com/MB_EjectEject/statu ... 5984419841
A Pakistan Air Force JF-17B aircraft crashed late last week on a training mission near Attock. Both aircrew ejected successfully from the twin seat aircraft using PK16LE Ejection Seats.
Atleast some Desi must have access to list of ejections from F16's at Collinsaerospace, why this infor especially from Feb 2019 is not made public?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

https://hushkit.net/2019/03/16/2019-ana ... l-threats/

2019 analysis: How good is the Block II Pakistan JF-17 fighter aircraft today compared to its peers and potential threats?
Last year we asked Justin Bronk, from the Royal United Services Institute for his opinion on the capabilities of the JF-17s of the Pakistan Air Force. Since then the aircraft has developed, as have world events, so it seemed timely to return to Justin Bronk for a new look at the subject.
What is the latest block JF-17 and how does it differ from the JF-17 discussed here?
MiG-21 Bison

Performance is very similar – at least insofar as there is little of note to choose between the two on kinematics. The JF-17 has a slight edge in sustained turn rate especially at lower speeds but this is of marginal importance given the Bison’s Helmet Mounted Sight and R-73 combination which currently gives the latter a superior chance during a merge over the Block 1 and 2 JF-17. Both have small visual and relatively small radar cross sections.
Indian Air Force Mirage 2000

Most of what has been said above about the F-16 MLU applies equally to the IAF’s Mirage 2000s, with the exception of altitude performance, where the large delta wing of the Dassault fighter allows it to operate comfortably at up to 50,000ft where both the JF-17 and even F-16 with their higher wing loadings really start to struggle.
Sukhoi Su-30

The Su-30 outclasses the JF-17 on almost every metric, but then the two types are not really meant to be comparable. The Flanker is a huge brute with massive thrust, agility, a very powerful radar and high costs. The JF-17 was designed as a cheap and cheerful lightweight fighter to allow Pakistan to operate a large airforce on a limited budge
:lol:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

^^^
As per the article Mirage 2000 - upgraded is somewhat equivalent to JF17 loaded with PL12/Aselpod. So the author believes, JF17 has the radar to guide Pl12. humm...
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

YashG wrote:^^^
As per the article Mirage 2000 - upgraded is somewhat equivalent to JF17 loaded with PL12/Aselpod. So the author believes, JF17 has the radar to guide Pl12. humm...
JF-17 vs M2k performance has been tested in real life on Feb 27 2019 when 2 M2k's managed to hold off a much larger force of JF-17's and the strike aircraft they were escorting. The pakis clearly had no hesitation in launching multiple BVRAAMs at long ranges and across the LoC as evidenced by the F-16's. But the Bundars did not launch any and did not manage to clear out the path for the strikers they were escorting. They had no RoE's to worry about and numbers were on their side so they weren't in any danger of running out of missiles. So whatever was stopping them had to be a technical shortfall.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

The PL-15 is around 6cm longer and 30KG heavier than SD-10A! The diameter is the same.


FC1 radar is 80KM range and SD-10A is 70KM max range. All claims by the Chinis themselves!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

nachiket wrote:
YashG wrote:^^^
As per the article Mirage 2000 - upgraded is somewhat equivalent to JF17 loaded with PL12/Aselpod. So the author believes, JF17 has the radar to guide Pl12. humm...
JF-17 vs M2k performance has been tested in real life on Feb 27 2019 when 2 M2k's managed to hold off a much larger force of JF-17's and the strike aircraft they were escorting. The pakis clearly had no hesitation in launching multiple BVRAAMs at long ranges and across the LoC as evidenced by the F-16's. But the Bundars did not launch any and did not manage to clear out the path for the strikers they were escorting. They had no RoE's to worry about and numbers were on their side so they weren't in any danger of running out of missiles. So whatever was stopping them had to be a technical shortfall.
I hope u realised I was being skeptical.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 37870?s=20 ---> France has threatened Pakistan Navy by stating it will cut all technical support, after Pakistan went ahead with giving Agosta-90B submarines MLU contract to Turkey: Turkish naval shipyard CEO.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/__not_a_bot_/status ... 60930?s=20 ---> Pakistani JF17, ladies n gents.

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 00869?s=20 ---> Report: US likely to block any Pakistani (PAF) attempt to acquire 2nd hand F-16 MLUs from the Norwegian Air Force.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 02529?s=20 ---> That's what the Pakistanis claim about the JF-17. It's operational record though is dubious. Ask this, in Feb 19, with overwhelming odds, with a superior ranged missile (on paper), why couldn't a flotilla engage a mere two Mirages? Why did all REKs miss. Some answers indicated below.

Image

Image

https://www.pentapostagma.gr/kosmos/mes ... a-apotyhia

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter thread on the JF-17....click on the link below.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 57639?s=20 ---> The exact points I had made earlier about how the JF-17 sub-par performance with unreliable PRC avionics (extrapolated from its exports and AWACS in PAF service) and how REK strikes failed as well. Had also pointed out how they failed against Flanker and Mirage too.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 06987?s=20 ---> "Pakistan’s western front is still unstable. It’s going to bite them and they will realise it", says Army Chief Gen. Naravane at a defence conclave.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 79554?s=20 ---> Report: India successfully lobbied in blocking the sale of a Western origin Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) for Pakistan Air Force's (PAF) JF-17 fleet, few years back.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

:lol:

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 67779?s=20 ---> Pakistani security official tells NYT that it’s almost impossible to differentiate between Afghan Taliban & Pakistani Taliban (TTP) along Durand line i.e. Af-Pak border, and that attacks on Pak posts have increased after Taliban takeover in Afghanistan.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

:rotfl:

https://twitter.com/vaibhavUP65/status/ ... 70469?s=20 ---> Single Star on Pakistani Flag is actually a Review.

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 09796?s=20 ---> Report: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has drastically curtailed the plans of it's Project Azm for 5th generation fighter jet. The project will instead now focus on a 5th generation Chinese fighter (likely J-35) with Pakistan specific modifications. Initial service entry at ~2031.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Watch from 6:18 in the thread below...

the first line (describing Pakistan) is classic comedy gold.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 22053?s=20 ---> Pakistan Air Force's (PAF) research dept. 'AvRID' may soon be added to US govt's sanctions list, resulting in supply of sensitive US tech or equipment to the dept being banned. Pak Air Weapons Complex (AWC) and Pakistan Navy's R&D wing ( MTC) are already in the US sanctions list.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Khalsa »

Rakesh wrote:PAF personnel in front of the Tejas pavilion at the Dubai airshow. This is going to be controversial, because the pilots got a view of the cockpit as we can see in the pictures below.
So before I begin, I don't care if they visited and even took pictures of the aircraft and stared at the cockpit.
Rakesh is right, the IAF contingent may have even seen or sat in the cockpit of a JF-17.

Here is a take on these supposed PAF officers.

These do not look like PAF officers to me but that of the Qatari Air Force.

1. The officer on the extreme LHS is wearing army style ranks which PAF does not follow, nor does IAF. Is it a Qatari AF officer ?
2. The Gent in Desert Overall , 4th from Left is again looking more like an Arab contractor working for UIT tech supporting the super mushak aircraft sales team.
3. The Officer Fifth from the Left again looks like a Qatari Air Force officer supporting mushak sales pitch of some sort. Equivalent of IAF officers wearing HAL caps.
4. The technician on the extreme RHS seems to be a civilian contractor working for UIT tech in Pakistani
https://www.uit-pak.com/
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/aviation07101/statu ... 24423?s=20 ---> Tell me you work for a Pakistani govt organisation without telling me you work for a Pakistani govt organisation.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

to me it always looked like a alms in a katora
Rakesh wrote::rotfl:

https://twitter.com/vaibhavUP65/status/ ... 70469?s=20 ---> Single Star on Pakistani Flag is actually a Review.

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Khalsa wrote:These do not look like PAF officers to me but that of the Qatari Air Force.
Khalsa, they are Pakistani officers :)

The issue is not about any secrecy here. There is nothing that they learnt from seeing the cockpit. But I personally would not extend such a courtesy, just because they are Pakistani. That's it. Now one can state that such interactions are okay to have between professional air forces. However, on that point....I have two of my own to make;

1) Is the PAF truly a professional service? Or is it not built on lies and some mythical superiority?

2) The PAF is an extension of Pakistan's foreign policy. And the foundation of that foreign policy lies in bleeding India with a thousand cuts. This is something they have been doing since independence.

Therefore, in light of this...I would not extend such a courtesy. I am not saying that Pakistanis are to be avoided at international air shows, because that is impractical. But they should be flatly told NO when asked to get a close up view of the plane or stand for a group photo.

Quoting the former Permanent Representative of India to the United Nations - Syed Akbaruddin - Stop Terror to Start Talks. Then we can look into extending such courtesies. Such courtesies are extended - on the global stage - to civilized nations who act responsibly.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

Rakesh wrote:Khalsa, they are Pakistani officers :)
both, i had a chat with an ex mig 23 pilot who now flies transport, about this incident. He mentioned it is not uncommon. Personally, he was not supportive of this, for the same reasons rakesh ji said.

That said, he said that knowing each other is imp, because he doesnt want anyone to meet the same fate as ajay ahuja who was his senior/acquaintance. He mentioned that such contacts help in these circumstances when pilots our pilots may have to bail out on their land. We disagreed on this, as my point was fear of modi and retaliation is a stronger response and the fact on ground it will be uniformed/ununiformed jeehardies ....to which he just laughed ....
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

One really cannot blame the Tejas contingent for this photo op with the PAF. The IAF is a professional air force and will meet with other air forces as per set norms. However the MoD should set a directive or standards when meeting with Pakistani officers at a global stage.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Atmavik »

While tejas, dhruv and hawks of India impress in the sky....pakis are providing some BENIS material at dubai air show. Only a true momin can spot what I am saying.

source .. https://twitter.com/SaurabhJoshi/status ... 7141672962

Image
Last edited by Atmavik on 18 Nov 2021 08:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Atmavik wrote:While tejas, dhruv and hawks of India impress in the sky....pakis are providing some BENIS material at dubai air show. Only a true momin can spot what I am saying.
Please provide picture link of the above picture. Thank You.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by bharathp »

cant spell organization (the BENIS material)
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by neeraj »

Atmavik wrote:While tejas, dhruv and hawks of India impress in the sky....pakis are providing some BENIS material at dubai air show. Only a true momin can spot what I am saying.

source .. https://twitter.com/SaurabhJoshi/status ... 7141672962
:rotfl:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Khalsa »

Rakesh wrote:
Khalsa wrote:These do not look like PAF officers to me but that of the Qatari Air Force.
Khalsa, they are Pakistani officers :)

The issue is not about any secrecy here. There is nothing that they learnt from seeing the cockpit. But I personally would not extend such a courtesy, just because they are Pakistani. That's it. Now one can state that such interactions are okay to have between professional air forces. However, on that point....I have two of my own to make;

1) Is the PAF truly a professional service? Or is it not built on lies and some mythical superiority?

2) The PAF is an extension of Pakistan's foreign policy. And the foundation of that foreign policy lies in bleeding India with a thousand cuts. This is something they have been doing since independence.

Therefore, in light of this...I would not extend such a courtesy. I am not saying that Pakistanis are to be avoided at international air shows, because that is impractical. But they should be flatly told NO when asked to get a close up view of the plane or stand for a group photo.

Quoting the former Permanent Representative of India to the United Nations - Syed Akbaruddin - Stop Terror to Start Talks. Then we can look into extending such courtesies. Such courtesies are extended - on the global stage - to civilized nations who act responsibly.

Rakesh I am saddneed that my whole post was removed.
I am man where I am happy to be debated with and if your point is valid I will see sense and agree
but removing my entire post and making it vanish was not NICE

For now I will stand for what I said in my post and that post has nothing to do with the professionalism of PAF ... it was an observation of the rank and the civilian contractors that I could observe. You have turned it into something it wasn't
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Khalsa wrote:Rakesh I am saddened that my whole post was removed.
I am man where I am happy to be debated with and if your point is valid I will see sense and agree
but removing my entire post and making it vanish was not NICE
Your post is right here ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7371&p=2523739#p2523739
Please don't be sad. It was never removed at all.
Khalsa wrote:For now I will stand for what I said in my post and that post has nothing to do with the professionalism of PAF ... it was an observation of the rank and the civilian contractors that I could observe. You have turned it into something it wasn't
Now with regards to the statement that these are Qatari Air Force officers. That is not really a proper observation. And here is why.

First, below is the link to the picture. Please drag & drop that picture into a new browser window...so you can see it in full size.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7835&p=2523607#p2523607

* Now take a look at the first officer at right and the third officer from right. Do you see the UIT badge right above their name? They are also wearing UIT caps. UIT stands for United International Technologies. This is a Pakistani organization, with its head office in Islamabad. They reportedly specialize in marketing defence and aerospace technologies. Qatari personnel will not have such a badge.

* Next take a look at the second officer from right. On his left upper arm, he has a badge called AMF. That stands for Aircraft Manufacturing Factory which I believe is part of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. AMF builds the Mushak propeller trainer which is used by the PAF for basic flying training. Qatari personnel will not have such a badge.

* The biggest giveaway is the Pakistani flag on their uniform. No Qatari personnel will wear that.

I know why you are stating these officers are Qatari, because a similar colour uniform is used by Qatari Air Force personnel. But these are not Qatari personnel. They are Pakistani personnel.
Khalsa wrote:You have turned it into something it wasn't
I have given my reasons why this should not be entertained.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Bart S »

Atmavik wrote:While tejas, dhruv and hawks of India impress in the sky....pakis are providing some BENIS material at dubai air show. Only a true momin can spot what I am saying.
What's to spot? It's perfectly legitimate Pakjabi Pinglish.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

Pakistan resumes armor modernization as terror threat recedes
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2021/1 ... t-recedes/
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by anupmisra »

YashG wrote:Pakistan resumes armor modernization as terror threat recedes
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2021/1 ... t-recedes/
How are they funding it? Does IMF know how their loans are being used to relieve pressure on the SBP reserves?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 80835?s=20 ---> Serviceability of Pakistan Army's AH-1F/S attack helicopter fleet has now dipped to around 25%. Pak attempts to acquire AH-1Z & Turkish T-129 have been blocked for now by US. Pak now hopes to get Flag of China Z-10 but even it's revamped 'ME' version has teething issues.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Khalsa »

Rakesh wrote:...
Thanks Admiral.
Appreciate your response and I said before I love being reasoned with and to.
And yes I made a mistake about thinking you had removed my post, trust me I somehow thought it was the Tejas Thread.

Anyway I am back after a break due to personal circumstances.
India has lost a precious son last week, lets pick up the threads and stitch back whatever we can.
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