Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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Rakesh
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Pak NSA Says Foreign Policy Influenced By US, Lack Financial Freedom: Report
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pakista ... rt-2699544
10 Jan 2022
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/sohailahmedsa/statu ... 07331?s=20 ---> VT-4 Main Battle Tank - Pakistan Army.

https://twitter.com/safi_wajahat/status ... 07333?s=20 ---> Explosive reactive armour. Effective against HEAT charge. Makes the hit explode outside instead penetrating inside!!!

https://twitter.com/safi_wajahat/status ... 12769?s=20 ---> ERA tiles are used as add-on (or "appliqué") armour to the portions of an armoured fighting vehicle that are most likely to be hit, typically the front (glacis) of the hull and the front and sides of the turret.

https://twitter.com/safi_wajahat/status ... 41058?s=20 ---> ERA disrupts and defeats the shaped charge jet of anti-tank missile warheads effectively. ERA also provides protection to tank against heat and KE threats. Have provision for fitment of reactive elements in panels without removing the panels, thus fast up arming of the tank.

https://twitter.com/safi_wajahat/status ... 07424?s=20 ---> It makes replacement easy because RTA plates are prone to explosion even with small arms fire. It’s seems part of the design because in most cases these are welded with main armour plates of an AFV. I think I need to pay a visit to HIT to see production myself.

Image

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

Shoddy JF-17 fighters throw doubt on quality of Chinese-made jets
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4407542
12 Jan 2022
Amid PLAAF incursions into Taiwan's ADIZ, Pakistan shows hidden weaknesses of Chinese military aircraft
Last edited by shaun on 13 Jan 2022 11:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

JF-17 was born in the mid 80's as the FC-1 project, where like the J-8 Chinese will convert J-7 with side intakes and put an American engine, a replacement for PAF Mirages and J-6 and J-7's.

It is all metal frame with Analog flight controls and not full FBW. Basically whereas Tejas went for Futuristic technologies and was ordered only when the Technology matured.

JF-17 was using low hanging fruit Technology wise and the American engine was replaced with the Russian engine post the end of the cold war and then rushed into service in high numbers for H&D purposes.

with mythical capabilities.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ShivS »

Chinese have a design philosophy that they will only introduce 33% or so new systems in an aircraft version to ensure timelines and system compatibility. Not a law, but a guideline. Thus there will always be significant commonality between the last version and the next 2.

When they were designing the J10, PAF was desperate for a new aircraft source as the US had cut them off from F16 sources and the EU had no single engined cheaper aircraft available-and Pakistan had no money.

Thus the JF 17 was born - a cheaper version of the J10 with a target airframe cost in the USD 20 million range - to make up numbers.

By the way, they seriously evaluated a partnership with India in the early 90s for the J10 :)
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by AkshaySG »

Honestly not a bad design choice even if the capabilties do take a hit , Over the next two decades many air forces will need legacy fighters like F-16 ,Mig-29 etc replaced and China can fulfill a very real need while building up their export capabilities and influence .The JF-17 Blk3 and J10 could see a good export life in Africa ,S America and Asian states like Myanmar ,BD,SL etc .
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by titash »

AkshaySG wrote:Honestly not a bad design choice even if the capabilties do take a hit , Over the next two decades many air forces will need legacy fighters like F-16 ,Mig-29 etc replaced and China can fulfill a very real need while building up their export capabilities and influence .The JF-17 Blk3 and J10 could see a good export life in Africa ,S America and Asian states like Myanmar ,BD,SL etc .
^ +108

Just like we had Wing Commander's MiG-21 shoot down an F-16 D post Balakot, the JF-17 poses a genuine threat to any and all IAF aircraft and the large numbers present a genuine operations research problem

There was a market for the MiG-21 and F-7 and there sure is a market for the JF-17. There is no comparable Russian offering either (the current Russian lightweight fighter is the twin engine MiG-29) and the Russians will not block sales for competitive reasons

The JF-17 was the correct decision for the PAF. In fact, if the Tejas had not worked out, we might have been in the market for JF-17s ourselves :mrgreen:

(remember the Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s were too expensive for us to acquire in the 100s like we did MiG-21s and Gnats)
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by rajsunder »

had some time to waste so went on google to get some information

Indian GDP in 2020 2.623 Trillion and 8.907 Trillion in PPP Terms
baki GDP in 2020 263.7 billion and 1.063 trillion in PPP Terms

Indian rupee purchasing capability for every $3.421 in India is about $1 in USA
baki rupee purchasing capability for every $4.031 in baki-land is about $1 in USA

Indian armed forces are about 1.4 million
baki armed forces are about 7 lakh

India uses about 60% of its budget on Salaries and pensions

Assuming that bakis salaries are same and using the PPP ratio, the salary and pension budget of bakistan calculation

INDIA defense budget for 2021 is 4,78,196 crores (64.65 billion)
Indian spending on just salaries and pensions = 60% of 64.55 billion = $38.73 Billion
baki defense budget for salaries and pensions = (38.73/2) X (3.421/4.031) = $16.73 billion

official defense budget for baki army is $8.78 billion, but the calculation(even with all the assumptions) is about twice the official budget. And the calculation is just for the salaries and pensions. And unlike baki army, our Indian army does not even grant lands to armed forces personnel, that would add to the personnel expenses making the budget even more.

lets say that bakis spend about 20% of defense budget for the capital goods and 20% on ongoing maintenance and other activities, that would make the total budget as $27.88 billion
Last edited by rajsunder on 14 Jan 2022 09:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by V_Raman »

we need mk2 by the bucket full!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

rajsunder wrote:.....
official defense budget for baki army is $8.78 billion, but the calculation(even with all the assumptions) is about twice the official budget. And the calculation is just for the salaries and pensions. And unlike baki army, our Indian army does not even grant lands to armed forces personnel, that would add to the personnel expenses making the budget even more.

lets say that bakis spend about 20% of defense budget for the capital goods and 20% on ongoing maintenance and other activities, that would make the total budget as $27.88 billion
ALso need to take into consideration the revenue generated by Fauji cement, Fauji atta, Fauji bread,... ityadi. Then there is the revenue from the poppy fields of their back-yard..
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Paki Afsars are becoming less Malsic. Just 8000 acres?

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by rajsunder »

Manish_P wrote:
rajsunder wrote:.....
official defense budget for baki army is $8.78 billion, but the calculation(even with all the assumptions) is about twice the official budget. And the calculation is just for the salaries and pensions. And unlike baki army, our Indian army does not even grant lands to armed forces personnel, that would add to the personnel expenses making the budget even more.

lets say that bakis spend about 20% of defense budget for the capital goods and 20% on ongoing maintenance and other activities, that would make the total budget as $27.88 billion
ALso need to take into consideration the revenue generated by Fauji cement, Fauji atta, Fauji bread,... ityadi. Then there is the revenue from the poppy fields of their back-yard..
That is not meant for defense budget but for the welfare of retired army generals.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Yes, it is. The far seeing (into medieval history) uniformed jihadis have set up these alternate sources of revenues so that the welfare component for the jaagirdaars and subedaars in the defense budget does not come under much strain.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by CalvinH »

This an Army that gave itself 20% Salary hike in the Peak of COVID in 2020. When Paki economy was going down and people were suffering in the street. No questions were asked.

Paki Army makes money from different sources. Directly or indirectly. Directly is through services offered to US and allies during WOT. The money is free money. The personnel used for the support are already paid through Salary budget. Its double and triple dipping. Indirectly is through these different enterprises that subsidize the cost which is already born in full by Paki Government through budget

Overall this free money is what enables Pak generails to spend on the small weapons and services that keep the service men happy and creates an island of happiness in otherwise moth eaten economy. Gernails act like king using this money that is freely available to them and doesnt need bureaucratic approvals and red tape.

For large acquisition they can cut through red tape and buy directly under the garb of national security. Again no questions asked and no scrutiny on the expense as it doesn't hit the books.

Overall $25B-30B looks like a right number to me. ~10% of GDP and 50% of their budget. Paki army is openly looting Paki national resources.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 51011?s=20 ----> Inside news about Pakistan Air force, acquired new AD system. Who helped Pakistani pilots to get top training? Why in the past Pakistan refused to buy J10 C? What is special list of Pilots? Airforce's vision 2020 & 2050.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Click on link below for video. RaGa should take notes :lol:

https://twitter.com/MeghBulletin/status ... 82052?s=20 ---> For the first time in 73 years, India has got a strong government. So we need to have to focus on building strong army: Imran Khan.

https://twitter.com/vaimaniki/status/14 ... 44771?s=20 ---> When our enemies feel they need a stronger army, because there was no govt in last 73 years in India like we today have, that speaks volumes of the work Modi Govt has done on India's National Security. The Chinese aggression post 2019 is not a coincidence either.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 72672?s=20 ---> India's new capabilities under BECA deal are posing a direct threat to Pakistan national security; BECA will aid the Indian military in identification, tracking & monitoring of huge assortment of targets & their locations, both on land & water: Report by Pak Air Force think-tank.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 32002?s=20 ---> Pakistan Air Force forced to select unsafe Chinese ejection seats for its J-10C fighters due to western sanctions. All previous Chinese fighters operated by PAF (F-6, F-7, JF-17) used Martin Baker ejection seats.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by naird »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 32002?s=20 ---> Pakistan Air Force forced to select unsafe Chinese ejection seats for its J-10C fighters due to western sanctions. All previous Chinese fighters operated by PAF (F-6, F-7, JF-17) used Martin Baker ejection seats.
This really sucks. At least Martin Baker used to tweet out details about PAF crash and how it saves lives. I guess we will miss out.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 32002?s=20 ---> Pakistan Air Force forced to select unsafe Chinese ejection seats for its J-10C fighters due to western sanctions. All previous Chinese fighters operated by PAF (F-6, F-7, JF-17) used Martin Baker ejection seats.
This factually not true, until the JF 17B PAF JF 17' a used to use Chinese ejection seats, the PAF top management liked it as they did not report the first few crashes, but PAF pilots hated it since after ejection the parachutes did not open and they took thier secrets to the grave.

PAF F-6 , F-7 also had Chinese seats and F16 ejections were not reported so post crash F16 became F6 etc.

Only after PAF Pilots pressure JF17B came with Martin Baker ejection seats, but PAF top brass does not like it since the whole world knows that even JF17B has apoor record and fleet has been grounded in between.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

There has been a lot of discussion on the BVR missiles on PAF aircrafts or the lack thereof. The AIM-120C5 is there with the F-16s and SD-10 for the JF-17 Block-II (though no firing videos), but hardly any discussion on the WVR missiles with PAF. Here the PAF seems to be lagging way behind IAF.
The most common missile that the PAF uses is the PL-5E on the F-6, F-7 and JF-17s. This is roughly equivalent to the R-60 that IAF moved away from more than 2 decades ago. The Mirage III/V most likely use the French Matra R.550 Magic II, which too is obsolete and IAF replaced the same with the R-73E on the M2K. The F-16s use the AIM-9M/L sidewinders with no hope of getting the latest AIM-9X missiles.

The sidewinders are also no match for the R-73E, which is the most widely used WVR in the IAF, being used by Mig-21 Bison, Su-30MKI, Mig-29, M2K and Tejas. The IAF Jaguars now use the ASRAAM and the upgraded M2K and Rafael field the MICA-IR missiles. Both of these are much more superior to anything that PAF has. In the future the ASRAAM is likely to integrated with the Su-30MKI and Tejas as well. In another 2-3 years we might even get a desi equivalent in the Astra-IR missile, which could then potentially replace the R-73E as well.

Apart from this, none of the PAF fighters have a Helmet Mounted Sight (HMSI) that can be used to cue the WVR missiles and most of their missiles are limited to +/-25 degree off bore sight angle.

Till the PAF gets the PL-10 with the J-10C, it will be miles behind the IAF for WVR missiles and any PAF fighter getting into a dog fight with IAF fighters will be at a severe disadvantage.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Aditya_V wrote:This factually not true, until the JF 17B PAF JF 17' a used to use Chinese ejection seats, the PAF top management liked it as they did not report the first few crashes, but PAF pilots hated it since after ejection the parachutes did not open and they took their secrets to the grave.

PAF F-6 , F-7 also had Chinese seats and F16 ejections were not reported so post crash F16 became F6 etc.

Only after PAF Pilots pressure JF17B came with Martin Baker ejection seats, but PAF top brass does not like it since the whole world knows that even JF17B has apoor record and fleet has been grounded in between.
Aditya, the Pakistani variants of the F-6 and F-7 did use Martin Baker ejection seats. We already know about the JF-17 Blunder. F-16 ejections have to be reported, as that is how Martin Baker adds to its tally of lives saved. Please see below...

F-6
https://www.facebook.com/ACEofPAF/photo ... 013970773/
https://martin-baker.com/2017/11/14/tanvir-anwar/ [This link is from the horse's mouth]

F-7MP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... olt_series

F-7PG
https://www.facebook.com/Martin.Baker.A ... 847948451/

F-16 [Missing the F-16 shoot down by IAF on 27 Feb 2019]
https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/ ... force/PAF/

Now the J-10C Vigorous Dragon will likely feature Chinese ejection seats, unless the PAF begs the Chinese to swap them with MB ejection seats. Pakistan is very good at begging and they may just convince the Chinese. Lets see.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

I believe F16's uses ACES parachutes and F16 crash in Mar 20 was a very public one and not the one shot down in Feb 19. The pilot probably came from JF 17 and had no idea how conduct a loop and crashed the F16 into the ground.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Second hand ATR 72 - 500 converted to MPA duties in Europe (Lots of Rawal Lake Sailing Club memberships changed hands for the same) doing superb sub hunting in and around GHQ. Jazakallah!

[Mod Note: Please put source of image when posting photographs. Post Edited]
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by anupmisra »

Aditya_V wrote:I believe F16's uses ACES parachutes.
F-16 parachutes look like the Indian flag. Maybe that's why the doosra banda was beaten to death by mango pakis before he could recite the kalma.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... t-5854076/

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Yup= Sikh Pilot in Tiranga Parachute (Actually pious Momem in American Parachute), 2 of them it was a F-16D with one surviving. if only those parachutes came with an automatic tweet rather than USAF award for hiding it.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

MeshaVishwas wrote:Second hand ATR 72 - 500 converted to MPA duties in Europe (Lots of Rawal Lake Sailing Club memberships changed hands for the same) doing superb sub hunting in and around GHQ. Jazakallah!
I believe she will be called Sea Sultan in PN Service.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Sea Sultan is Embarer 1000 , a jet plane which even the manufacturer has not converted
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Lisa »

But why buy and then convert to Sea Sultan when chinese mal is both available and superior? After all chinese mal deals with American surface and subsurface assets all day long in the South china Sea.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by hnair »

The Sea Sultan saga is odd. The p8 program had a long design phase in which the 737 airframe was given a makeover for ordinance bays to launch the GPS enabled LWT , expendable sonar ejection racks, hardened wing launchers for Harpoons etc. In effect, a formidable submarine hunter-killer and a patrol craft with decent surface attack capability against lightly armed combatants. Similar capability for the Il38(except for the GPS enabled release of LWT). Indian navy also has a decent fleet of maritime patrol craft like Dornier228 design which is two steps below, in having surface search radars etc but with shorter legs.

This Sea Sultan seem to be more in between capabilities of Dornier and IL38s. Might have a surface search radar and some compact sonar deployment option. But would need to see how they do that. What it gives is longer legs for the PN to find out an IN surface combatant is on its way to a good missile launch spot.

If it is not any of the above, then it could be just bizjet on call to go windo-shopping at Gelf malls etc under pretext of “routine patrol”
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Sea Sultan the more you think about it with number of P3C a they have , it is for VVIP transport since PIA can no longer used, similarly those 2 ATR now Bajwa and Co can roam privately.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 46881?s=20 ---> Pakistan Navy today inducted 10 Sea King helicopters donated by Qatar. All airframes are 40+ years old.

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

I am not posting the pictures these tweets have below, for copyright reasons.

Click on the links below to see the pictures and to follow the twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 91202?s=20 ---> So now this is a matter of conflict. Sqn Ldr Fahad Masood (retd.) published a piece on JF-17 via http: // Key.Aero mag. Interestingly, facts on KLJ-7A AESAR, specifically the cooling system in use, contradicts each other on different pages.

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 70979?s=20 ---> Keeping the radar claim aside, quite interesting things related to JF-17 Block III are stated in the "Roar of the Thunder" published in this months's Air Forces Monthly issue, that also includes a lot of things related to future JFT standards.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 46881?s=20 ---> Pakistan Navy today inducted 10 Sea King helicopters donated by Qatar. All airframes are 40+ years old.
We had the Sea King of around the same vintage and retired these after the UK sanctions post 1998 and also because of maintenance issues. Pork Navy would be spending a good amount to keep these air worthy :)
Last edited by Rakesh on 25 Jan 2022 20:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please do NOT requote images when replying. Post Edited.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by rags »

Vips wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 46881?s=20 ---> Pakistan Navy today inducted 10 Sea King helicopters donated by Qatar. All airframes are 40+ years old.
We had the Sea King of around the same vintage and retired these after the UK sanctions post 1998 and also because of maintenance issues. Pork Navy would be spending a good amount to keep these air worthy :)
You have to give it to these guys. Their strategy to hoover up all discarded airframes around the world, there is a viable air-force somewhere in the middle of all this junk. Or a spare parts business. All in All, win Bakshish win for the pakis.
Last edited by Rakesh on 25 Jan 2022 20:11, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Please do NOT requote images when replying. Post Edited.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

PAF still uses 63's vintage transports - thats 57 years and counting. Same with Mirages.
I do not fully grasp the opex burden that PAF has but it has to be tremendous.

But!

Their OPEX has actually decrease while their personnel cost has increased from 30% to 45% -> a 50% increase

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... lion_18322

Image

Source: https://idsa.in/issuebrief/india-def-bu ... era-040220

On the other hand India's personnel cost has increased from 50% to 60% -> 20% increase.

But our capex is very poor, it is perhaps lower than Pakistan. Pakistan's capex has reduced primarily because they have slashed the capex but couldn't do the same with opex and personnel cost. OTH India's ambitions have increased but personnel cost has also increased.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 46881?s=20 ---> Pakistan Navy today inducted 10 Sea King helicopters donated by Qatar. All airframes are 40+ years old.
https://twitter.com/AhmAdTipu7/status/1 ... 03045?s=20 ---> Pakistan Navy has acquired 10 surplus Sea King helicopters from Qatar's stock. These helicopters are part of No 111 Squadron and will strengthen PN's ASW, ASuW, SAR and related mission capabilities. Out of 10, half is expected to cannibalize for supporting existing fleet.

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by parshuram »

https://twitter.com/defense_talks/statu ... 66694?s=21

Claims of Fresh and rather big follow up order of SH-15 SPH
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by rajsunder »

rags wrote:
Vips wrote: We had the Sea King of around the same vintage and retired these after the UK sanctions post 1998 and also because of maintenance issues. Pork Navy would be spending a good amount to keep these air worthy :)
You have to give it to these guys. Their strategy to hoover up all discarded airframes around the world, there is a viable air-force somewhere in the middle of all this junk. Or a spare parts business. All in All, win Bakshish win for the pakis.
Remember when bakis brought retired south korean rail engines. They ended up as repair shop queens.

Similarly, some general is building up his portfolio of papa johns pizza franchises with this purchase.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

parshuram wrote:https://twitter.com/defense_talks/statu ... 66694?s=21

Claims of Fresh and rather big follow up order of SH-15 SPH
this doesnt seem true - pakistan hasnt bought any SH15 sph in last 6 years (2015-21)

the only artillery they hv bought
A-100 300mm Self-propelled MRL x 60 (2008) ordered 2011-2015 delivered
M-109A1 155mm x 245 Self-propelled gun 2015 ordered 2017-2019 delivered
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