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Vips wrote:
We had the Sea King of around the same vintage and retired these after the UK sanctions post 1998 and also because of maintenance issues. Pork Navy would be spending a good amount to keep these air worthy
You have to give it to these guys. Their strategy to hoover up all discarded airframes around the world, there is a viable air-force somewhere in the middle of all this junk. Or a spare parts business. All in All, win Bakshish win for the pakis.
There is good reason to buy used (most of deal is basically black
money given out all parties involved).
rags wrote:
You have to give it to these guys. Their strategy to hoover up all discarded airframes around the world, there is a viable air-force somewhere in the middle of all this junk. Or a spare parts business. All in All, win Bakshish win for the pakis.
There is good reason to buy used (most of deal is basically black
money given out all parties involved).
In this case then paf will have to give black-moeny payments to Qatar, since its a donation. I doubt that. If you had told me its the other way round - I'd have believed unless there is a nuance that I dont appreciate here.
Seems like the pakis are actually getting their hands on new 155s and 300mm from their iron brother based on the report below, the part about the hypersonic weapon should be taken with a fistful of salt as it will be several years before the lizard shares it with the beggers. They are also getting the know how on producing extended range ammo.
If this isn't an encouragement for the IA to finish the non stop trials and start inducting the ATAGS in their hundreds then bhagwan jaane what else can make them act faster. https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 96285.html
- 236 SH-15 155 mm vehicle mounted howitzers (53 KM range)
- NORINCO AR-1 300 mm multi barrel rocket launchers
I went through the SIPRI arms trade registers of 2015-2021, pak has not bought any SH15. If any transfer , this is off the books and therefore also illegal arms transfer. Not that pak or china care about it.
In December 2019, Army Recognition has reported that Pakistan has procured 236 SH-15 155 mm 6x6 wheeled self-propelled howitzers from China. For many years, Pakistani armed forces are in the process to strengthen their artillery capability, especially with a new more mobile artillery solution. According to the SIPRI Arms Transfer Database, Pakistan has already purchased 36 SH1 155mm wheeled self-propelled howitzers from China in 2013-2014.
Currently, the Pakistani army operates the M109A5, a tracked self-propelled howitzer manufactured by the United States but Pakistan would continue the modernization of its artillery force with new wheeled artillery systems. For the Pakistani Army, the ideal might be to procure an even lighter weapon, one that can be carried by its utility helicopters using an external sling.
The SH15 is a Chinese-made wheeled self-propelled howitzer based on 6x6 Shaanxi truck chassis with an armored cabin at the front and one 155 mm gun-howitzer mounted at the rear of the truck. This new howitzer is protected against the firing of small arms and artillery shell splinters. The crew cab has two large bulletproof windows at the front and there are two doors on each side.
The SH15 has a maximum firing range of 20 km with standard ammunition and 53 km with a rocket-assisted artillery projectile. This artillery vehicle can be operated by a crew of five. According to some military sources, the vehicle will have a maximum weight of 22 tons.
Don't know. Just reading the India khabar link listed above, quoting the range with extended range and guided rounds.
It will be what ever the PRC has developed. Lazer guided is based on USSR tech. GPS equivalent guidance should not be that hard to achieve by PRC.
"The SH15 has a maximum firing range of 20 km with standard ammunition and 53 km with a rocket-assisted artillery projectile"
What kind of magic is this, you more than double the range with a rocket assisted munition!!! I have not heard of any developed systems that can do this, the ramjet munition is still in development stage and here we have the cheenis giving the beggers a new unheard of technology.
But whatever the case, its high time the IA starts increasing the number of Pinaka 2 and Pinaka ER.
"The SH15 has a maximum firing range of 20 km with standard ammunition and 53 km with a rocket-assisted artillery projectile"
What kind of magic is this, you more than double the range with a rocket assisted munition!!! I have not heard of any developed systems that can do this, the ramjet munition is still in development stage and here we have the cheenis giving the beggers a new unheard of technology.
But whatever the case, its high time the IA starts increasing the number of Pinaka 2 and Pinaka ER.
It isn't impossible to reach 50 km with a RAP round and using a 155/52cal system. The US Army's currently in development RAP round will extend the range of the 39 cal M777 out to 40 km (should go well beyond 50 km when launched from a 52 cal system). The same round gets them 70 km from their 58 cal ERCA. A few months ago, the French used the Excalibur round and fired it out to beyond 46 km to qualify it for their wheeled system. At the end of the day, these are ballistic rounds, and the farther you go the less accurate you become. This then requires some form of guidance, and the ability to correct. In the case of the French example, they struck pin point targets at nearly 50 km using the French 52 cal gun. The same round has showed this pin point accuracy at 70 km using the US 58 cal ERCA systems. So what it boils down to is the type of guided round the PA is using, its accuracy, and survivability. Otherwise, these ranges are purely academic and of no practical operational value.
Last edited by brar_w on 28 Jan 2022 22:25, edited 1 time in total.
It says the aircraft had been recovered and flying MA, I saw that i.e is he implying that it has recovered, repaired and used by PAF in operations. I remember there was F-16 No 606 which had photos of twin seater and claimed by PAF, post Operation Swift Retreat as a single seater. Leading to online speculation that 606 was the tail number which was shot down.
So from the tweet, it seems this aircraft was recovered repaired and used by PAF as a MA, does it mean military aircraft or does it mean the aircraft was unfit for operations?
Aditya_V wrote:So from the tweet, it seems this aircraft was recovered repaired and used by PAF as a MA, does it mean military aircraft or does it mean the aircraft was unfit for operations?
The refurbished F16 could also be used for disinformation. Parked planes on tarmacs (usable or not) are picked up by satellites. With the right amount of oil spills and tire marks, the satellite can not pick up the difference between real and unusable.
It says the aircraft had been recovered and flying MA, I saw that i.e is he implying that it has recovered, repaired and used by PAF in operations. I remember there was F-16 No 606 which had photos of twin seater and claimed by PAF, post Operation Swift Retreat as a single seater. Leading to online speculation that 606 was the tail number which was shot down.
So from the tweet, it seems this aircraft was recovered repaired and used by PAF as a MA, does it mean military aircraft or does it mean the aircraft was unfit for operations?
John wrote:
There is good reason to buy used (most of deal is basically black
money given out all parties involved).
In this case then paf will have to give black-moeny payments to Qatar, since its a donation. I doubt that. If you had told me its the other way round - I'd have believed unless there is a nuance that I dont appreciate here.
It was for question why pakistan is buying used ACs not necessarily that deal. In case of Qatar it is donation (then again we don’t know if there is more too it) but for example other used platforms they are buying like the used Embraer 190 jets (which is a dead AC design and those airlines operating it would have given away the AC for free) for full price is corruption in full swing.
That deal is great example of corruption while buying a similar new jet wouldn’t have allowed all parties involved to make this much black $$ .
It isn't impossible to reach 50 km with a RAP round and using a 155/52cal system. The US Army's currently in development RAP round will extend the range of the 39 cal M777 out to 40 km (should go well beyond 50 km when launched from a 52 cal system).
Thanks Brar, I knew about the US plans for Increasing the barrel length of M777 for increased range. Have been hearing about the Excaliber since the "Future weapons" days on discovery, so had an idea about what the US was doing to increase the range and accuracy. What Pratyush has shared about the Germans and the South Africans is also not surprising as both these countries have a very well developed defense industry.
I had assumed that since the ATAGS beat the world record in 2017 with a range of around 48 km using HEBB ammos, the maximum range of the other artillery systems will be around these figures, if they had caught up with ATAGS.
Seems I hadn't read much about what the Chinese had been doing with their artillery systems, I knew they had been developing various new systems but hadn't read much about their ammo development. Just goes to show that the Pakis will forever be trying to do something to show their folks that they are == to the Indians.
The ranges quoted for the PRC 155 is not really be surprise for me. Because in the olden days Norinco was heavily collaborating with Gerald Bull's GHN.
Given the nearly 30 years of domestic r&d the PRC can easily have achieved the ranges they are claiming to have.
However, as Brar stated in the absence of guidence the ranges are purely academic.
stephen wrote:Thanks Brar, I knew about the US plans for Increasing the barrel length of M777 for increased range. Have been hearing about the Excaliber since the "Future weapons" days on discovery, so had an idea about what the US was doing to increase the range and accuracy. What Pratyush has shared about the Germans and the South Africans is also not surprising as both these countries have a very well developed defense industry.
I had assumed that since the ATAGS beat the world record in 2017 with a range of around 48 km using HEBB ammos, the maximum range of the other artillery systems will be around these figures, if they had caught up with ATAGS.
Seems I hadn't read much about what the Chinese had been doing with their artillery systems, I knew they had been developing various new systems but hadn't read much about their ammo development. Just goes to show that the Pakis will forever be trying to do something to show their folks that they are == to the Indians.
There is no longer barrel version of the M777 anymore. That was just a demo project. The 58 cal system is going on the M109 Paladin which is going to enter service next year with 70 km precision strike range extendable to beyond 100 km via a new round they are developing for the system. Excalibur and the RAP round gets them about 40 km when launched from the 39 cal M777 which is sufficient for those guns (the US Army is fielding 52 cal wheeled system as well for greater range and mobility). Again these max ranges are not very useful unless you use guided shells.
The Chinks giving Paks stuff for free is a very big irritant. People constantly dissing chinki maal on this forum perhaps need to read up on the past Indo-Pak wars where they'll realise the sad truth that...most of the time...most of the chinki maal did work. Chinks have been arming the paks with everything from pistols to nukes. We need to be similarly equipping the chinkis' enemies with stuff for free -- from bramhos missiles to tactical nukes...to Philippines, Vietnam and Taiwan. And for effect...maybe even raise a Tibetan Liberation Army, Navy and Airforce. They need to be responded to in their same language. At the rate they're going, I'm pretty certain that they'll soon be equipping the paks with aircraft carriers and ssbns too...since they're pushing these out like TVs and mobiles while we're making them like constipated farts.
Cheeni maal works, just not to the numbers they quote. But reduce every cheeni mall spec by 20-30% and u know u still have a problem at hand. So we need to pull
Up our socks. But we know that since ages.
India needs to give weapon systems to China's neighbors at goodwill prices with zero-interest loans. But English-speaking Nehruvians sitting in the foreign ministry are the biggest roadblock to this. They have mistaken their remit as "keeping peace with all countries at all times," rather than bringing India to a position of dominance in the world by leveraging easy loans or weapons (both being done by China). So while China uses this strategy to tighten the noose around India, Nehruvian diplomats remain happy that no country is upset with India since India doesn't do anything at all. Keeping India inert at all times is their strategy.
sanjayc wrote:India needs to give weapon systems to China's neighbors at goodwill prices with zero-interest loans. But English-speaking Nehruvians sitting in the foreign ministry are the biggest roadblock to this. They have mistaken their remit as "keeping peace with all countries at all times," rather than bringing India to a position of dominance in the world by leveraging easy loans or weapons (both being done by China). So while China uses this strategy to tighten the noose around India, Nehruvian diplomats remain happy that no country is upset with India since India doesn't do anything at all. Keeping India inert at all times is their strategy.
Cheenis are pretty mercantilist, be assured they are jot giving pakistan mall at any good prices but perhaps extracting their pound and flesh. Indeed if anything pakistan must have asked maal from cheen on the sam eterms as US did, where coalition support fund was basically a grant. Cheen probably didnt oblige and pakistan kept playing ball. Now when India is acquiring several weapon systems - they have no option but to buy from cheen.
Indian could give softloans for sure but not give maal for free or lower prices - it will not build the reputation & brand for indian maal. Philippines has come onboard, if Malaysia comes too (which is looking tough though) we would have made an entry with a bang.
sanjayc wrote:India needs to give weapon systems to China's neighbors at goodwill prices with zero-interest loans. But English-speaking Nehruvians sitting in the foreign ministry are the biggest roadblock to this. They have mistaken their remit as "keeping peace with all countries at all times," rather than bringing India to a position of dominance in the world by leveraging easy loans or weapons (both being done by China). So while China uses this strategy to tighten the noose around India, Nehruvian diplomats remain happy that no country is upset with India since India doesn't do anything at all. Keeping India inert at all times is their strategy.
You could arm neighbours with all sorts of weapons but what if they sit on their asses when push comes to shove india vs China. China is their biggest trade partner.
No weapons for free. Take them for a price. Even Vietnam is hugely trade dependent on China.
Unless RAW goes about starting a paki model in Vietnam vs China, there is no viable way to contain China in that model.
China's neighbours would not be armed by India so that they can participate on the side of India in an India-China war. The idea is to ensure that China's neighbours are not walkovers for Red army and that a substantial part of Chinese army is deployed across the borders of those countries to match their strength. Better to have Chinese army stretched across all its borders, rather than its neigbouring countries being pushovers so that China won't mind bulk of its army deployed against India.
I don't see the GOI doing this to the degree that will likely begin to seriously concern the Chinese side. There will be a few sales like the Brahmos but I don't think it will be large arms sales or transfers. I don't think there is any defense industrial relationship with Taiwan which will most definitely get the Chinese to notice if it were to happen..
Pakistan is the meeting grounds of last generation american mil hardware and next generation chinese mil hardware. It woulnt take much to find out from pakistan defence circles what does the comparative picture looks like. They are looking at the tea leaves.