Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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nam
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

Thanks for the correction. I read it as PL15 in hurry.

For all the ho ha about PL15, there is only photoshop of PL15 on JF17. Nothing else. The expectation of PL15 becoming the next saviour like F16 has now made the range of PL15 reach 300KM!

I am even doubtful China will give PL15 to Pak.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by SRajesh »

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2279070/pa ... tah-1-ispr
Is this correct! 140 km guided multi launch rocket
Is this Pindi-gas driven or real answer to PINAKA II and guided PINAKA
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Given thier track record its probably Chinese PHL 03, Chinese versions of Smerch MLRS, probably 90km range without guidance. Can be fired at Salvo mode but at if fired at 90Km range the unguided CEP is so high that it will miss Targets. It will be most dangerous when fored in saturation attacks at shorter probably 30km range when a bunch of rockets can clear an area.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by yensoy »

jamwal wrote:I've seen these "hinges" just where canopy is attached to fuselage and wondered what they were.
Someone on Twitter got a close up shot of JF-17B
Image
What made them use Hinges on JF-17B?
Sir, Arif Ajakia has picked up your story and inserted your picture into his youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXq4_c-o3c. See 0:49.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

Funny video :))
I just found the picture, it was not my discovery.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Can some aviation guru kindly educate me? I am not understanding this.

The stainless steel hinge is bolted into the airframe on one side of the hinge's face plate and the other side of the hinge's face plate, the canopy is attached. So how will that canopy separate from the rest of the airplane, in the event of an ejection? Or are the pilots going to right through the canopy, in the event of an ejection?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

Not a guru but through canopy ejection is performed by shattering the canopy using an explosive cord right before the seat ejects. The Tejas has the same system. You can see the explosive cord in cockpit photos.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Avtar Singh »

it is called MDC = Miniature Detonation Cord. you will see it on hawk canopy as well
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Shameek »

Some aircraft like the F-16, F-18 or MiG 29 blow out the canopy prior to ejection. But the Tejas, Harrier etc. have through canopy ejection. Remember seeing the Tejas ejector seat and canopy detonator setup many moons back. :D
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

Image

Pakistanis are testing a new long range ballistic missile.
Rough overlay of Pakistani missile test path.
Total area: 8,81,913 km
NOTAM area just on Pakistani landmass: 64,000 km.
Not much concern for civilian life and property just like their iron brather China
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by rajsunder »

WHY IS PAKISTAN’S JF-17 FIGHTER A FAILURE?
https://www.daily-sun.com/post/530003/W ... A-FAILURE-
In 1999, Pakistan and China signed an agreement to jointly develop and produce the JF-17 “Thunder” and equally share the development cost. The JF-17 was planned to be a low cost, light-weight, all-weather multi-role fighter with a Chinese airframe, equipped with Western avionics and powered by the Russian Klimov RD 93 aero-engine.
Pakistan envisaged a fighter aircraft comparable to the Su-30MKI, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. China even stated that it would induct the aircraft due to its superior capabilities. However, the aircraft is far from its conceived capabilities as it is a low cost fighter developed with low quality Chinese avionics and weapons.

PAF has found that the Operations and Maintenance cost of JF-17 aircraft is very high as compared to modern weapon systems and needs to be reduced to make operations more cost effective. China, Pakistan’s all weather friend, having spent a significant amount of money on developing the fighter, most probably forced Pakistan to accept Chinese avionics to offset some of its development costs.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra is supposed to have a 58% share in production, but this is far from reality. Kamra procures raw material and production kits of important systems from China and assembles the JF-17 at Aircraft Manufacturing Factory, Kamra. PAC only manufactures some sub-assemblies like the wings, front fuselage and tail with material once again imported from China. While most of the systems are Chinese, South African and European, the ejection seat is from Martin Baker (UK).

Therefore, it is fit to call PAC Kamra, a sub-assembly line which integrates all these components onto a full metal semi-monocoque airframe, which too mostly is manufactured in CAIC, China. 3. Since its operational induction in 2009, PAF has inducted more than 115 aircraft. The much awaited dual seat trainer aircraft has also been manufactured and recently inducted ceremoniously in December 2020. The induction ceremony was a mere formality as most of the trainer aircraft are unserviceable.

There are five operational JF-17 squadrons and a Flight at Combat Commanders’ School, which PAF overstates as the sixth squadron. Possibly a seventh training squadron would have been formed with the induction of the trainer version. The aircraft is available in two Blocks or variants. A third Block, which is supposed to be more advanced with better avionics and AESA radar, is still under development.

A modern fighter requires having reliable systems on board with minimal maintenance problems. The aircraft’s capability is judged by the avionics, weapons and engine equipping it and the JF-17 fails to hit the mark in most areas. This was amply displayed on 27 Feb 19, during its poor performance against Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 and SU-30s, during an attempted retaliation to IAF targeting a Pakistani terrorist establishment.

In the Air Defence role, it indigenous Link-17 data link is not only unreliable; it does not have sufficient data transfer rate and can never be integrated with the F-16 fighter’s Link-16 to give the aircraft true interoperability capability. The “Thunder” does not have even an effective BVR or Airborne Interception radar. While touted to be the next best PAF fighter after the F-16, its unremarkable low endurance, poor accuracy and low weapon carrying capability were amply demonstrated on 27 February 2019, with all its Range Extension Kit (REK) bombs failing to hit the target in the face of effective jamming and attacks by Indian fighters. This has been publicly accepted by its politicians recently and PAF’s lame excuse of the REK bombs being a token response without intent of causing casualties is hard to believe. 5. The heart of the JF-17 avionics is the KLJ-7 AI radar and Weapon Mission Management Computer (WMMC). Both systems are fraught with problems.

KLJ-7 radar has multiple modes, but exhibits degraded behaviour and experiences several operational and maintenance problems since the beginning of the JF-17 project. Despite Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology forwarding recommendations for its improvement, the radar continues to experience high failure rates.
The WMMC has limited capacity and a high failure rate of a number of its modules, including the Main Computer module. Malfunction of the WMMC has caused Launch Zones of Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles to shrink during combat exercises. Due to its unreliability, PAC is now attempting to indigenise the WMMCs.

The weapon load that the aircraft can carry is also not remarkable.Its integral 23 mm Gun initially experienced gun stoppages in the air and now has problems with the 23 mm round bursting. Other than the Chinese SD-10 BVR, REK and C-802AK ant-ship missile, the aircraft carries the normal weapon load of a MiG-21. Efforts to integrate the aircraft with other Chinese weapons are in progress, but with limited success. 6. One of the main reasons for JF-17’s dismal performance is because the aircraft has a single Russian RD-93 engine and it is renowned for its repeated failures and poor reliability since inception. A large number of engines experience cracks on Engine Guide Vanes, Exhaust Nozzle and Flame Stabaliser. The poor serviceability state of the RD-93 engines is a weak area and PAF has repeatedly expressed serious concerns to China on the quality of maintenance and high repair cost of the engines. Of late, China is also facing problems of procuring spares for the engine from Russia due to embargoes placed on financial transactions. The engine cannot be directly sourced by Pakistan from the OEM or further exported by it.

China on its part plans to replace the engine with a Chinese WS-13 under development. Therefore future Chinese support for the RD-93 may not be readily available as China would want operators to replace the RD93 with WS-13. The high rate of unserviceability, recurring snags on the engine and poor spares supply, makes JF-17 aircraft costly and a less reliable platform. It also reduces the availability of combat aircraft. 7.

There are a number of other nagging problems on the JF-17 which have not been resolved. The Nose Landing Gear shimmies while taxing and a number of aircraft experience nose wheel vibrations. Ventral tails have been found to be cracked, indicating poor metallurgy or design. Even the four aircraft gifted to Myanmar by China have developed cracks in the Ventral Tail. Though Nigeria is procuring three aircraft, Sri Lanka was wise enough, shelving its plan of doing so.

Nigeria’s experience with the Super Mushshak trainer aircraft that it bought from Pakistan was also not pleasant with the aircraft plagued with numerous maintenance problems and extremely high maintenance costs charged by the Pakistanis.

PAF tom toms the aircraft at important air shows. However, its air display during the 2019 Paris Air Show was lacklustre, especially in the low speed run. So uninspiring is its performance, China which led its development isn't even inducting a single unit of the type, preferring the more capable J-10 fighter, now being eyed by Pakistan. Though its cheap at its purported price in 2018 at $25 million per fighter, with the Pak Rupee depreciating almost 30% over the past year, it would eventually cost much higher.

Moreover, with Government of Pakistan's inability to shore up its financial situation, any new customer of the JF-17 would find it extremely difficult to get material and spares support which Pakistan needs to procure from China. Pakistan’s financial problems have led to it default on its payments to China for the JF-17 project with a large outstanding amount of over a few hundred million dollars.

Even if China is able to supply these spares, it will do so at exorbitant prices which escalate every year, as it does with Pakistan. Pakistan has expended more than USD $3 billion on acquiring these 3.5 generation fighters. Whether this expenditure was truly worthwhile, is a question Pakistani tax payers must ask.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

jamwal wrote: NOTAM area just on Pakistani landmass: 64,000 km.
Not much concern for civilian life and property just like their iron brather China
Maybe they are confident that it will fall within their landmass :P
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by sajaym »

rajsunder wrote:WHY IS PAKISTAN’S JF-17 FIGHTER A FAILURE?
https://www.daily-sun.com/post/530003/W ... A-FAILURE-
Ya Allah! So the JF-17 is their Mig-29K it seems! Tauba, tauba!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

rajsunder wrote: In the Air Defence role, it's indigenous Link-17 data link is not only unreliable; it does not have sufficient data transfer rate and can never be integrated with the F-16 fighter’s Link-16 to give the aircraft true interoperability capability.
You kafir, 17>16 and hence the Pindigenous Link 17 on JF17 is better then the haraam American Link 16 on F16.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Madrassa math :lol:

Image
Vips
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Pakis can now threaten Russia to give them the SU57 for free or else.. :lol:
They can also now offer to China that they will take care of the Xinjiang problem .. :rotfl:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by anupmisra »

jamwal wrote:Image

Pakistanis are testing a new long range ballistic missile. Not much concern for civilian life and property just like their iron brather China
Prophetic! Apparently the mijjile fell on a Baloch village. Not sure about the accuracy or the source of this report...

Pak’s Shaheen-3 missile crash landed in civilian area in Balochistan: BRP
New Delhi (NVI): Several houses were damaged and at least five people including two women and two children were injured in Dera Bugti district in Balochistan province as Pakistan Army today test-fired its long-range Shaheen-3 missile which crash-landed in a civilian area, says Baloch Republican Party (BRP).
DG ISPR tweeted on the flight test of the surface to surface ballistic missile, with a launch video of the Shaheen-3.
President, PM, CJCSC & Services Chiefs have congratulated scientists & engineers,” the DG-ISPR said in a tweet.
Must be those 25 year old X-PhD (X-expedited).

https://newsvibesofindia.com/paks-shahe ... brp-51213/
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

So the missile flew 600 odd Kms, China for geopolitical reasons does not want to give Pakis a missile that can hit, Dubai, Tehran, Israel or the Chinese heartland, the Chinese are restricting Paki missiles for India specific targets
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Porkistan already has other long range missiles that can target and strike in UAE, Iran and the western parts of China.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

The North Korean Ghauri failed in the late 90s during Kargil is now only on paper. Itsthe Chinese M-9,M-11 etc. Pakistan has no chain of suppliers or industrial base, it's just Chinese missiles painted in Paki colurs
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by sajaym »

Guys,

Is there any reason that those faithfuls use a single looong truck for their missile?

Image

While we kafirs use a single looong trailer?

Image

Only benefit I can think of is that in our case, the truck can park the trailer somewhere and then go to collect another trailer.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

These are Chinese trucks who copied Soviets.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by kvraghav »

I think they are practically same. A single chassis cannot take tight turns. The Paki/Chinese trucks are also tractor trailer configuration. The advantage might be with the trailer. That might be powered. Also, the cabin height is less. This would mean the missile can be above the cabin which might not be possible in our case without make the truck tall and unstable.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:Madrassa math :lol:

]
:rotfl: ..what does it do between 90 seconds and 4 minutes :lol:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by kit »

yensoy wrote:
jamwal wrote:I've seen these "hinges" just where canopy is attached to fuselage and wondered what they were.
Someone on Twitter got a close up shot of JF-17B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXq4_c-o3c. See 0:49.
puncturewala pakistani :mrgreen:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

jamwal wrote:These are Chinese trucks who copied Soviets.
And these are pretty similar to the M-9 missiles and looks like a single stage missiles, anyway our Sword fish and other radars would have seen the ballistic profile, speed and other charectertics.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Paki damp squib!

Baluchi Republican Party claim that the Shaheen-3 ICBM tested was a failure,detonated in mid- air with debris landing in a village destroying many houses,blgs.,etc!

They say that this is not the first time that Paki missiles have similarly failed with debris falling in the same area,Dera Bugti Matt .The missiles were fired from the Rakhi area of Dera Ghazi Khan.In the recent test,it was reported by the BRP thattroops evacuated the area,detonated the missile which however destroyed several Civilian structures and buildings.

Keep up the good work Porkistan!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:Madrassa math :lol:
:D Probably meant to type Mumbai but in typical paki premature ejjakulation syndrome re-typed Delhi.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya G »

Excellent article on JF-17, though one must accept that the overall program is a successful one as far as acquisitions are concerned.

PS: comparison to MiG-29K is unfounded
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

The Paki missile test failing is in a way negative for us. It means the Porkis are actually having an indigenous (an Oxymoron in the pakistani context) Missile development program of its own and as thought these missiles are not imports from China/North Korea.

Unless of course the pakis got handed only the pure 24 karat Chinese maal (those that failed the QC test) :lol:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Not really the missile range was always 700km, Paki Notam was for H&D purposes, they cant tell thier kanata that's the maximum they can reach.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

It could have been the first stage of the missile falling in Baluchistan. Paki missile test are not 'Tests' but just training for their soldiers. The missiles are tried and tested chini maal, with an atrocious paint job.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Please see SanjayM post where DG ISPR has put out the image of the missile tell where is the 2nd stage, 3rd stage etc?, that is Agni I size single stage Missile, Chinese M-11 or M-9, it has been with them since 90's.

Who are the Pakistani suppliers for these missiles None, there are no Pakistani Naval ships where any splashdown happenned.

The Pakis are increasing range for domestic H&D- thats all. Like Block III JF-17 can beat the S*** out of Rafale.

I think for the Paki Uniformed Jihadis is if the Mango Awam rise up and create a Coup, some of their Uber luxury lives with retirement in UK/Australia or Canada can be put in Jeopardy.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

We keep discussing IAF strength, have we had a meaningful discussion on PAF strength.

1. F16's - Trump card of the PAF , 58 Block 30 standard with 18 F16 Block 50/52, 1 shot down in Feb 19 and 1 crashed, I am sure some will have downtime , 75% availability with Amraams and Block 50/52 using sniper pods with LGB, GBU etc

2. 105 JF 17 single seat and 15 JF 17B 2 seaters, some say 40% of the fleet is completely grounded, there have been a few crashes 5-7 , has analog FBW, yet to complete a loop, show BVR missile firing or LBG or video bombs, 40% grounded rest will have 75% uptime. PAF must be banking that Block 3 shows improvement in some of these shortcomings. Also there has been no video or aerial refueling and IL 78 are being used by PAF to fly F16 parts from the US.

3. F-7 PG, acquired during Operation Parakram in 2002, 50 acquired, atleast 18 have crashed. Around 30 should be available and 1 type which PAF did not use in Operation Swift Retreat.

4. Mirage 3/5 Fleet. The biggest exaggeration. PAF started acquiring these before the 1971 war. Around 120 acquired from France before 1985, another 100 acquired in various conditions from Australia, Alegeria, Libya, Eqpt etc. Many had reached end of life, France stopped manufacturing even parts for these 90's . 50 given ROSE upgrade from 95-99.

Current strength, as stated many were acquired after end of life and could be used only for parts like Alegeria, Libya and even 40 year old Egptian ones recently and would not be compatible with PAF ones, air to air missiles many would have reached end of life, over the last 50 years PAF has reported atleast 2-3 crashes in many years and I think overall 80-90 crashes have taken place. Plus highly unlikely the 23 aircraft that survived the 1971 war would be flyable, at best PAF can have 50 odd aircraft today. But they chose to keep these and retire all F-7's acquired later.

So PAF can at best have 280 aircraft over 17 operational squadrons with the F16 s with SAAB Aew being thier backbone.

Out of the rest big question Marks on how many are flyable and will continue to fly after 5-10 sorties in combat.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by AkshaySG »

Aditya_V wrote:We keep discussing IAF strength, have we had a meaningful discussion on PAF strength.

1. F16's - Trump card of the PAF , 58 Block 30 standard with 18 F16 Block 50/52, 1 shot down in Feb 19 and 1 crashed, I am sure some will have downtime , 75% availability with Amraams and Block 50/52 using sniper pods with LGB, GBU etc

2. 105 JF 17 single seat and 15 JF 17B 2 seaters, some say 40% of the fleet is completely grounded, there have been a few crashes 5-7 , has analog FBW, yet to complete a loop, show BVR missile firing or LBG or video bombs, 40% grounded rest will have 75% uptime. PAF must be banking that Block 3 shows improvement in some of these shortcomings. Also there has been no video or aerial refueling and IL 78 are being used by PAF to fly F16 parts from the US.

3. F-7 PG, acquired during Operation Parakram in 2002, 50 acquired, atleast 18 have crashed. Around 30 should be available and 1 type which PAF did not use in Operation Swift Retreat.

4. Mirage 3/5 Fleet. The biggest exaggeration. PAF started acquiring these before the 1971 war. Around 120 acquired from France before 1985, another 100 acquired in various conditions from Australia, Alegeria, Libya, Eqpt etc. Many had reached end of life, France stopped manufacturing even parts for these 90's . 50 given ROSE upgrade from 95-99.

Current strength, as stated many were acquired after end of life and could be used only for parts like Alegeria, Libya and even 40 year old Egptian ones recently and would not be compatible with PAF ones, air to air missiles many would have reached end of life, over the last 50 years PAF has reported atleast 2-3 crashes in many years and I think overall 80-90 crashes have taken place. Plus highly unlikely the 23 aircraft that survived the 1971 war would be flyable, at best PAF can have 50 odd aircraft today. But they chose to keep these and retire all F-7's acquired later.

So PAF can at best have 280 aircraft over 17 operational squadrons with the F16 s with SAAB Aew being thier backbone.

Out of the rest big question Marks on how many are flyable and will continue to fly after 5-10 sorties in combat.

It all comes down to the JF ... Its the one they have in highest quantity, The one they are currently acquiring and the one that will form the backbone of PAF for the near future . Its also the only one that has never been operated by other countries so difficult to evaluate its true performance.

The fact that China itself doesn't operate it says a lot tbh.

If it is as much of a rust bucket as some claim then we shouldn't have many issues however it does give them a cheap force multiplier and a way to launch BVR's (however inaccurate they may be) so it's still something to look out for.

I suspect PAF would be desperate to get a squadron or two of J-10's looking at how many 4.5 gen fighters IAF is inducting.

One thing I do have to give them credit for is their AWACS, For a meagre budget they have manged to get decent quantities of Saab and ensure that they can have one airborne at all times which is a huge plus especially when your fighters can't talk to each other
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

My Point is not to underestimate the PAF, with thier resources they did a good job on 27-Feb-19 but to stop self flagellation and combat the Media news stories that we need to Import right now (there are vested Interests)
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

1. IAF has to cater to PAF ..PLAAF Singly or jointly fighting.2..PAF will be essentially fighting a defensive battle mostly under their radar cover over their territory with its plus minuses. 3. On paper SAM like s400 can be an offensive weapon if the advertised ranges really work. The paki military is rightly concerned given their short depth. 4. The disparity will only grow from here on if we can stay on course ... more power to China for waking us up
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

Going by Kaiser tufail blog on kargil PAF ran out of gas very quickly without any real air fighting.. dont know what's the situation today
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

a lot has been said about china not operating JF17. I will not count too much on it simply because china already has a lot legacy light/low end fighters. Their focus/needs with passage of time, due to evolution of their doctrines, have shifted to heavies to take on US, or conduct long range operations over sea. the fact is pakis have got this fighter jet in reasonable no.s to defend themselves. could be not the most potent but in the hands of a capable pilot could cause troubles to us.
That is why having a large inventory of even Mk1/Mk1As would take the fight to enemy heartland.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

ArjunPandit wrote:a lot has been said about china not operating JF17. I will not count too much on it simply because china already has a lot legacy light/low end fighters.
All those legacy light and low end fighters powered with chinese reverse engineered engines are very old compared to the modern JF17 equipped with a relatively more reliable Russian engine. Certainly the chinese would have replaced those dinosaur aged fighters. The fact that they did not reveals a lot about the capabilities of the JF (Junk Fighter) :mrgreen:
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