Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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Manish_P
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Any info if it can fire on the move (upto what speeds)?
chola
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by chola »

First of four Type 054 A/P frigates under sea trials.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -in-china/

Pakistan’s New Type 054 A/P Frigate Started Sea Trials In China

The first Type 054 A/P frigate for the Pakistan Navy started sea trials in late May. Local ship spotters images show the frigate leaving the Hudong Zhonghua shipyard (near Shanghai) under her own power.

Image

Martin Manaranche 17 Jun 2021

Pratyush
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Aditya_V wrote:So VT-4 is say T-80 with higher armour weighing 52 tonnes with a 1200HP diesel engine and Torsion Bar. It has good power to weight ratio. Apparently can fire Hesh rounds from a Smoothbore- dont know its effectives of Hesh from a smotthbore
The nature of the Hesh round makes the firing gun ( smooth bore/ rifled) irrelevant. The ballistics of the gun and fire control system are more important.

Anyway, it appears to be a good tank. Is it a match for t90 I don't know.

But I know come what may. The Indian army will not order anymore Arjun.
chola
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by chola »

Pratyush wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:So VT-4 is say T-80 with higher armour weighing 52 tonnes with a 1200HP diesel engine and Torsion Bar. It has good power to weight ratio. Apparently can fire Hesh rounds from a Smoothbore- dont know its effectives of Hesh from a smotthbore
The nature of the Hesh round makes the firing gun ( smooth bore/ rifled) irrelevant. The ballistics of the gun and fire control system are more important.

Anyway, it appears to be a good tank. Is it a match for t90 I don't know.

But I know come what may. The Indian army will not order anymore Arjun.
Sir, Arjun fight is over. Our worry for indigenous products should now be on the FRCV whose RFI is scouring the world from Russia to South Korea to Turkey for a phoren partner.

I'm sure it will be good and will undoubtedly deal with the VT4, VT5 or whatever the Pakis will induct in the future. But without a pure Indian proposal, FRCV will usher in another generation of foreign tanks for the IA.
Aditya_V
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Pratyush wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:So VT-4 is say T-80 with higher armour weighing 52 tonnes with a 1200HP diesel engine and Torsion Bar. It has good power to weight ratio. Apparently can fire Hesh rounds from a Smoothbore- dont know its effectives of Hesh from a smotthbore
The nature of the Hesh round makes the firing gun ( smooth bore/ rifled) irrelevant. The ballistics of the gun and fire control system are more important.

Anyway, it appears to be a good tank. Is it a match for t90 I don't know.

But I know come what may. The Indian army will not order anymore Arjun.
From the Arjun thread , the rifled gun choice for Arjun was for the accuracy of the HESH round as per CVRDE. Thats why the other tanks with smoothbore guns dont fire Hesh rounds by fire Sabot and HEAT rounds.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

With modern fire controls none of the projectiles require any rifling.

Rifling was to make the gun more accurate in the absence of modern fire controls.

You take a any round designed for rifled gun and modify it for a smooth bore gun with modern fire control system. The shell fired from smooth bore guns will be as accurate as ones fired from rifled guns.
ParGha
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ParGha »

Pratyush wrote:With modern fire controls none of the projectiles require any rifling. Rifling was to make the gun more accurate in the absence of modern fire controls. You take a any round designed for rifled gun and modify it for a smooth bore gun with modern fire control system. The shell fired from smooth bore guns will be as accurate as ones fired from rifled guns.
Also, now HESH rounds are mostly used against field-fortifications, so hitting the target from smoothbore guns is not that difficult. Most modern tank (except possibly the oldest T-59 tanks in Pak inventory) have anti-spall lining, so HESH rounds are lot less effective that HEAT; on the other hand, ability to fire cannister (anti-personnel) from a smoothbore is more useful against swarming attacks.
mody
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

On paper the VT-4 looks like a match for the basic T90S tanks. Can only hope that the pakis induct the type 99 too or China deploys a few regiments of Type99A permanently in Tibet. Might force the IA to go for higher numbers of Arjun
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

mody wrote:On paper the VT-4 looks like a match for the basic T90S tanks. Can only hope that the pakis induct the type 99 too or China deploys a few regiments of Type99A permanently in Tibet. Might force the IA to go for higher numbers of Arjun
What people on BRF are reduced to wishing for TSPA to get better tanks for IA to buy Arjun.

Don't know if I should laugh at the absurdity of the situation. Or I should cry because of it.
Maria
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Maria »

Pratyush wrote:
mody wrote:On paper the VT-4 looks like a match for the basic T90S tanks. Can only hope that the pakis induct the type 99 too or China deploys a few regiments of Type99A permanently in Tibet. Might force the IA to go for higher numbers of Arjun
What people on BRF are reduced to wishing for TSPA to get better tanks for IA to buy Arjun.

Don't know if I should laugh at the absurdity of the situation. Or I should cry because of it.
I cry :((
sajaym
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by sajaym »

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2314219/pa ... ear-attock



Some people claiming a PAF JF-17 went down. Apparently Pahla Banda and Doosra Banda, both got out safely!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Will Pakistan’s Top Fighter Squadron Transition to Chinese J-10C | Replacing the F-16 |

S_Madhukar
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by S_Madhukar »

Well the J-10 does like a poor cousin of Rafale, good for optics matching Endia
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

The NaPaki mind is a comedian's goldmine :rotfl:

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 34656?s=20 ---> Pak PM Impran Khan claims that US is now maltreating Pakistan, as US now considers India as a strategic partner.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 81766?s=20 ---> Report: Pakistan Navy currently facing huge problems.

- Only two submarines including an obsolete Agosta 70, are operational now.

- FM-90 SAMs of Chinese made PNS Zulfiquar frigate not working.

- Huge vibration problems in PNS Khaibar.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 12641?s=20 --->
- Radar of PNA Azmat missile boat not working.

- EW suite of PNS Jurrat missile boat also malfunctioning.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Rakesh wrote:Will Pakistan’s Top Fighter Squadron Transition to Chinese J-10C | Replacing the F-16 |
Welcome to another Lemon. :lol:
JF-17 was also supposed to be the best fighter in its class and now there are reports coming in of how effective they are!!!! :rotfl:
ArjunPandit
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

S_Madhukar wrote:Well the J-10 does like a poor cousin of Rafale, good for optics matching Endia
J10 is based on Israel's Lavi which was very similar to F16. They seem to have fallen in love with F16 taiyyaarra.....like Salman khan finding Ash look alike, sneha ullall.
Jokes aside J10 is in service in PAF in substantial no.s as per wiki it is 450+ and the F16 design has been proven quite effective.
YashG
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 81766?s=20 ---> Report: Pakistan Navy currently facing huge problems.

- Only two submarines including an obsolete Agosta 70, are operational now.

- FM-90 SAMs of Chinese made PNS Zulfiquar frigate not working.

- Huge vibration problems in PNS Khaibar.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 12641?s=20 --->
- Radar of PNA Azmat missile boat not working.

- EW suite of PNS Jurrat missile boat also malfunctioning.
While all of this looks like great info - but how do you believe when this twitter handle says something like this without sources? These claims are bigdeal - wold like to blv it but is there anyway I can find sources to these tweets?
YashG
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 81766?s=20 ---> Report: Pakistan Navy currently facing huge problems.

- Only two submarines including an obsolete Agosta 70, are operational now.

- FM-90 SAMs of Chinese made PNS Zulfiquar frigate not working.

- Huge vibration problems in PNS Khaibar.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 12641?s=20 --->
- Radar of PNA Azmat missile boat not working.

- EW suite of PNS Jurrat missile boat also malfunctioning.
Okay if found the source of the info - https://www.timesnownews.com/internatio ... uty/798091
Now I wonder who is the source for TN article!
Aditya_V
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

J-10 is much better than JF 17 but still worse than manuvourbility and avionics, leaving the PL 15 propaganda and JF 17 ACM 400 aside, with Al 31 engines etc it will be much costlier than to operate than JF 17. It will also kill the Chinese export potential of the JF 17. Plus I suspect China might be paying some royalties to the Israelis and Russians which may not be put in public. All the flanker derivative and J 10 the PRC does not have full IP making their export highly unlikely.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Barath »

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 81766?s=20 ---> Report: Pakistan Navy currently facing huge problems.

.
While all of this looks like great info - but how do you believe when this twitter handle says something like this without sources? These claims are bigdeal - wold like to blv it but is there anyway I can find sources to these tweets?
Khaibar/Tariq class was anyway supposed to be phased out 2020 and some have already been retired. Khaibar was commissioned in 1976 in RN as Arrow and fought in the Falklands war. Some of the others sound like one-off problems, or ones that can be addressed or temporary issues. (eg The SAM is used on multiple ships in multiple countries, there are multiple ships in the classes for corvettes etc.

Tariq class is supposed to be replaced by Chinese Type 54AP frigates, and submarines replaced/augmented by Chinese diesel subs

So all Pakistan has to do is avoid getting into a major naval war until then. And lean on other ships/subs if so.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

YashG wrote:Okay if found the source of the info - https://www.timesnownews.com/internatio ... uty/798091
Now I wonder who is the source for TN article!
Wolfpack gets the info of his tweets from news feeds. He has been more or less on point with everything he has reported to date.

This is chinese maal sirjee and what is exported to Porkistan is even worse (i.e. JF-17). So don't expect anything fabulous and it will be the bare minimum to display strength, but otherwise is empty.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

The TSPAF and DGISPR are trying hard to hide their total number of JF-17 crashes, but Martin Baker just put out this tweet around two weeks back on 09 Aug 2021.

https://twitter.com/MB_EjectEject/statu ... 19841?s=20 ---> A Pakistan Air Force JF-17B aircraft crashed late last week on a training mission near Attock. Both aircrew ejected successfully from the twin seat aircraft using PK16LE Ejection Seats.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by rajsunder »

Aditya_V wrote:J-10 is much better than JF 17 but still worse than manuvourbility and avionics, leaving the PL 15 propaganda and JF 17 ACM 400 aside, with Al 31 engines etc it will be much costlier than to operate than JF 17. It will also kill the Chinese export potential of the JF 17. Plus I suspect China might be paying some royalties to the Israelis and Russians which may not be put in public. All the flanker derivative and J 10 the PRC does not have full IP making their export highly unlikely.
I think chineese must be paying some one in putin's coterie.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Rakesh wrote:The TSPAF and DGISPR are trying hard to hide their total number of JF-17 crashes, but Martin Baker just put out this tweet around two weeks back on 09 Aug 2021.

https://twitter.com/MB_EjectEject/statu ... 19841?s=20 ---> A Pakistan Air Force JF-17B aircraft crashed late last week on a training mission near Attock. Both aircrew ejected successfully from the twin seat aircraft using PK16LE Ejection Seats.
Previously all the JF-17's came with Chinese Ejection seats, for the first few crashes it was ideal for PAF leadership where news of JF-17 crashes was not reported but bad news for PAF pilots since they Gravity induced free fall to the ground and the Pilots all attained their 72 quietly.

I guess some sort of revolt has been later batches of JF -17's have started getting Martin Baker seats from the UK, where the Pilots survive the crashes but the News gets public ally known and bad for PAF H&D.

If I am right its 4 crashes before Martin Baker and 2 crashes with Martin Baker in the last 1 year- there is no data on JF-17 flight hours. Many including at BRF fall for propoganda- the JF-17 is all metal fighter does not even have full digital FBW.

Regarding the comparison with N-LCA, JF-17 is a light fighter, probably with total payload of 3000 Kg, its inner wing Pylons as per arm chair physics probably can be rated only for 450-500 KG. Yet as per propaganda it carries 2 Carrier Killing ASM(ACG 400) in its inner wing Pylons with supposed range of 200KM in Ballistic profile like the Chinese BM 21.

If we do the logical maths for a missile to launch from a Plane less than 450 KG, have enough fuel to take Ballistic profile- fighting against gravity and then have enough electronics to make corrections via radar/ IIR Seeker with Battery etc. I would say it will have a warhead of 10-15 KG- I am ships will be blasted with Jinn power.

Can posters before making assertions on N-LCA, please first post videos.

1) JF-17 BVR missile launch from Fighter Aircraft
2) Air to Air refuelling of JF-17
3) JF-17 making 1 loop
4) Live fire tests of JF-17 firing ACG 400
5) What the Benefits, weight penalty and J-10C thrust vectoring manuvor videos before asking LCA Mk2 to have this from day 1.

https://www.india.com/opinion/the-truth ... e-4240000/
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

https://www.dawn.com/news/1642376/pakis ... -mlrs-ispr
and today they tested jinn powered rackits with 150+km range while evil endians cant go upto 100 with grad and yindoo pinaka

and yesh this time it will hit without leaving behind unexploded ..i am not clear if it flew leaving the ordnance behind or when it hit the ordnance was left unexploded..perhaps somethings are best unexploded. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Pakistan Army on Tuesday conducted a successful test of indigenously developed “Fatah-1” guided Multi Launch Rocket System (MLRS), according to a statement by the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).

The military's media wing, in a statement, said the extended-range rocket system was capable of delivering a conventional warhead.

“The weapon system will give Pakistan Army capability of precision target engagement deep in enemy territory,” the ISPR added.

The president, prime minister, chairman joint chiefs of staff committee and the chief of army staff congratulated the participating troops and scientists on the successful launch.

The guided MLRS was primarily developed to hit targets without leaving behind unexploded ordnance. The extended range guided MLRS is a developed variant of the guided MLRS family, usually with an extended range of up to 150km.

The development of a conventional system by Pakistan seems to be a response to the Indian focus on the development of its conventional capabilities, besides improving response options to India’s Cold Start Doctrine.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by SinghS »

It is their Prahaar missile. How they built it is immaterial and whether it would explode or not is also insignificant.

Now the Army and AF has to be ready for MRLS salvo from 150km away and that would provide pakis quick shoot and hide opportunities. For us the surveillance area just got larger and do we have anything to neutralize it without involving AF?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

CIWS, NBS Mantis rapid fire canons and Iron Dome type systems (much costlier) of recent times are the counter MLRS solutions usually spoken about.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

SinghS wrote:It is their Prahaar missile. How they built it is immaterial and whether it would explode or not is also insignificant.

Now the Army and AF has to be ready for MRLS salvo from 150km away and that would provide pakis quick shoot and hide opportunities. For us the surveillance area just got larger and do we have anything to neutralize it without involving AF?
This is a threat but I suspect this the Chinese Smerch being tested and range in probably 90-100Km, We definately need more of the Defenses Manish is talking about around Key airbases and Army bases.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by SinghS »

Aditya_V wrote: This is a threat but I suspect this the Chinese Smerch being tested and range in probably 90-100Km, We definately need more of the Defenses Manish is talking about around Key airbases and Army bases.
If enemy says they can reach X miles, you should plan for X + a miles. Underestimating their ranges won't do us any good in real war.

If you are being bombarded with MRLS it won't be wise to just rely upon CIWS and other point area defenses. They would reload and fire again till the defenses are overcome. A MRLS is a area saturation weapon designed to defeat such defense measures by sheer volume due to affordability.

We would need to build effective counters system of search, seek and destroy along with minimum required point area defense. The capability to quickly and effectively search, seek and destroy without relying upon AF would make a big difference.

One such solution could be quick induction of Prahaar/Pragati with terminal seeker guided by AI based network of surveillance Dhruvs and UAVs.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

SinghS ji,

You are absolutely correct in your approach to the solution to the problem in had.

I will only add a weapon locating radar to the kill chain. An AI based battlefield network that can transfer location data at a real-time basis. Will be force multipliers. For any drones or ground surveillance radar. So that the enemy's relocation efforts are monitored and is struck either en route to the next launch site. Or while setting up at the next launch site.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by SinghS »

I did not add weapon locating radar as current tech doesn't allow us to locate projectiles beyond 50-60 km until we fly those up.

In my opinion near future is EOTS mounted on enough number of UAVs and act as IOT sensor mesh. That would be cheaper, self-healing, non-cumbersome and should be able to look deep.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Good point.

I guess if the radar emitter can be placed on a mast then the problem of range could be solved.

OTOH, doing that, will increase both emplacement and relocation time.

No easy solutions :)

The relative failure of Nishant, and delays in Rustom have taken away a lot of options from the table to do it on the cheap.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

It is a guided version of the Chinese A100E MBRL, which is based on the Smerch. Maybe the A200 variant which Wiki states as " Development of A100 with simple cascade inertial terminal guidance updated by GPS. The arrangement of A200 is different from A100 in that each launching box consists of three rows of launching tubes, three on the top and bottom respectively, and two in the middle. A200 rockets also have additional forward control surfaces that were not present on A100 rockets."

China had claimed that the range of its guided version of A100 was 150 Kms. They also have a A300 variant, with a claimed range of 290 Kms. This would be equivalent to our Pragati/Prahar missile.

I have been advocating a guided version of the Smerch rocket for a while. Apparently we do locally manufacture the unguided rockets for Smerch. With guidance similar to that developed for the Pinaka, the range will increase in the range to 120-150 Kms.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

saw some videos on twitter where our brfiters and their circle pointed out that the blast was coming from inside the ground....and the missile/warhead was nowhere in reach...also in a mbrl what was this single launch..cost cutting...
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by yensoy »

^^^^ Be careful of "290km range". This is a magic code for "at least 290km, maybe much more" to get under the MCTR limit.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Whatever, we must be evolving ways in which through Satellites, Drones, Intelligence learn to start tracking these Vehicles so that they are quickly targeted in war time.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

First ‘Sea Sultan’ Maritime Patrol Aircraft Joins Pakistan Navy
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... stan-navy/
06 Sept 2021
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

So Pakis are retiring the P-3C orions with an aircraft with Italian sensor suite on a Brazilian Jet. Is this a step forwards or Backwards?

https://eurasiantimes.com/pakistan-navy ... ubmarines/
According to the researcher from Rawalpindi, the Sea Sultans will not be bought from a single manufacturer and instead will be purchased from different private entities. He said that Sea Sultan is currently an empty shell, none of the electronics, which make the aircraft operational for maritime patrolling have been added yet.

The analyst refused to divulge any information on the aircraft’s potential configuration as the details are classified. However, he vaguely described it as being in the works of possessing numerous subsystems, including an internal weapons bay.

He confirmed that the Sea Sultan will have Electronic Counter Measures, Electronic Support Measures, and Electronic Warfare systems in line with any modern Anti-Submarine Warfare platform.
Another Pakistani analyst said Sea Sultan has not been modified yet. “Only the first Lineage 1000 was inducted to formally mark the program. But 3 Lineage 1000s including this are now undergoing conversion with Paramount group handling the overhaul of the aircraft before they are sent to conversion.”
They agreed that the only aircraft capable of meeting the maximum takeoff weight, endurance, and speed could only be met by the Embraer Lineage 1000, but its production was discontinued by the original company. This prompted Pakistan to explore multiple vendors.
Even Brazil is yet to modify its Lineage 1000 jets- so why are the Pakis getting this- it will take them years to modify it and get it operational- compared with P-3C orions with Harpoons which soo many nations are flying unless- for some reason US is cutting spares and supplies and forcing them to retire them.
Commodore G Prakash (Retd), a veteran Indian Navy aviator, shared his professional views over the induction of the Sea Sultan exclusively with The EurAsian Times.

The fact that they have chosen an unproven civil aircraft like the Embraer Linear 1000 to replace the much-proven P3 shows that they have been forced to make a compromise choice, probably for want of good offers from around the world. Converting this aircraft designed for civil flying, for maritime military use is not going to be easy.

“Design inadequacies with respect to engines, airframe, power generation systems, etc. are bound to be a major challenge. Equally challenging will be the task of equipping the aircraft with weapons, sensors, tactical mission systems etc., which will necessitate extensive structural changes. All this will also increase the basic weight of the aircraft, with a negative impact on its overall operational capabilities.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

I guess this should be to supplement the PC-3s. Atleast 2-3 paki Orions are quite new. In fact perhaps the last ones built.
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