Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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ArjunPandit
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

are we trusting sheikh rashid now? I would wait thinking anything on this till a J10 arrives..
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Khalsa »

This if true will be one of the best news ever for the Indian Arms Industry as well as hard hitting for the PAF Mil Complex.

Bringing the J10C into ring will confirm that PAF has no further growth space for the JF-17 and will take some wind out of their sales pitch. It will also bring a fork into their mil complex that they will have to grapple with and divert resources from JF-17 to handle the maintenance etc. There are many nationalists in Pakistan who will want to see this partly built in Pakistan just like the JF-17.

For us it will possibly result in more 2 more Rafale squadrons after the CAATSA waiver if that happens and will solidify the plans of Tejas Mk2 and AMCA. The French Arms industry will become more out of reach of the Pakistani and become even more distant than the American mil complex.

Last not least, its quite important to let the Pakistanis develop effective combat tactics against the Rafales and the S400 on the J10 which will be shared and put to good use on the North Eastern Sector where the J10s will be piloted by the PLAAF pilots.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Atmavik »

Will be interesting to see if the paki j 10s are with WS 10 engine or the Russi engine
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Avinandan »

^^ Some news channels are saying that they will come with WS-10 engine
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by titash »

Garus - how does the J-10 family compare to the Tejas variants?

The JF-17 is clearly an inferior light fighter (although the PAF was correct in its decision for large scale induction). But the J-10 family is China's chosen multirole fighter just like the Tejas will be our dal chawal fighter down the road. The J-10 family will benefit with any across-the-board advancements in China's aerospace industry and these upgrades will flow to the PAF at relatively low costs

All-in-all, I think this news is likely to reinforce the IAFs support for the Tejas and its derivatives. It's pretty clear that we'll be facing a Chinese origin Air Force on both fronts (possibly even all 3 fronts)
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:The J-10 will replace their early model F-16s acquired in the 80s. They are older than the IAF Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s.

Only the 18 F-16 Block 50/52s will be left. A minimum of two squadrons will be acquired to replace No 9 and No 11 Squadrons in the PAF.
Other than 11-14 ADF F16 that they got as second hand, all other jets have had MLU bringing them upto block 52. Yes these might be older frames but why would they need replacement ? Blk52 is not technologically obsolete.

Would those airframe have no airframe life ? Western platforms often have long airframe life. Isnt it so ?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

The J10C will eat into the numbers of JF17-BlockIII. The pakis will be flying the F16s till 2035 easily. The pakis fly much less than IAF and hence the wear and tear on the airframes is lower. The condition of the older F-16s should be on par with our M2Ks and the newer ones will be in much better shape.

The J10Cs are meant to shore up the numbers and support the F16s along with the fragile H&D of the pakis. Its also an admission that the JF17s just won't cut it against IAF and even the Block-III are not going to be able to match upto the Tejas MK1A, much less the Rafael.
The PAF will have to retire all of their F7s and most of their Mirage III/V within the next 5 years. This would leave them with only 4 squadrons of F16s and 8 squadrons of JF17s. The 1.5 squadrons of J10Cs will help shore up the numbers and PAF will likely induct another 4 squadrons of JF17 BlockIII over the next 5-6 years. The induction of the Block-III might start from around the end of 2022 is the testing goes well.

The interesting thing to watch will be the performance of the WS-10 engines on the J10C. The PAF is not too happy with the russian RD-93, because of higher maintenance requirement. If the WS-10 is worse than the RD-93, then it will be a nightmare for the pakis!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by hemant_sai »

I am of the opinion that these are not actually sales from Cheenees. They are deploying their assets around India in the guise of military deal.
20-25 J10s are no big deal for Cheenees and hardly any good assurance for Pakis to go for such small numbers.

There will be more coming for sure and we are certain only about 80 Mk1A by 2028.
And neither we are certain to eliminate Pak from the 2 front equation before 2028.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by John »

Pakistan gen and officials are gonna make some nice $$ selling access to J-10 to western Intel, Mushy even noted how they would ship whole Chinese weapons to foreign nations to help counter China (more like fatten his Swiss bank account).
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by hemant_sai »

I would have believed this theory if India is in place of China. Yes this is sarcasm on us.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

Chinese wont give WS10 on J10C, it will bring into open the lack of Chinese maal. Additionally the export version fable will also be stitched to deflect the shortcomings or lower spec of chinese platform capabilities.

Pakistan is a very leaky place, they can’t keep any secrets. Its the listening outpost for US on chinese weapons. China knows this.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Maybe the Chinese just want to ape king khan... they will ask for exclusive bases for the J-10s which will be accessed and maintained only by Chinese personnel...

Every sugar daddy gets exclusive room in the bordello :mrgreen:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by K Mehta »

Found this interesting image in this dawn article

The photo is very badly photoshopped reapat very badly. Note the folding of the pocket with the name tag. They have added name tag and bullet proof armor to the photos. I feel that they are ashamed to show normal photos and are adding bullet proof armor to make up for actual lack of kit in the field.

Image
Last edited by K Mehta on 02 Jan 2022 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by K Mehta »

I think the main reason why J 10 is being bought is because the F16 has failed. There is a spare parts crisis which can also be leading to this.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

K Mehta wrote:I think the main reason why J 10 is being bought is because the F16 has failed. There is a spare parts crisis which can also be leading to this.
Why do you believe the F-16 has failed? The early model F-16s are around 40 years now and they once had low serviceability issues, due to lack of spares. But I believe even that has been resolved.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by K Mehta »

Rakesh wrote: Why do you believe the F-16 has failed? The early model F-16s are around 40 years now and they once had low serviceability issues, due to lack of spares. But I believe even that has been resolved.
Let me rephrase my words to fizzleya f 16 have failed as seen in swift retreat or they are unaffordable to maintain for a reasonable future. This can be due to lack of spares as pakonomy is in shambles especially dollar reserves.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 60417?s=20 ---> US has still Not responded to Pak request made back in March 2021, for approval to purchase surplus C-130J from European countries.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 85219?s=20 ---> Just In: Afghanistan's Taliban run Defence ministry officially announces it will actively stop Pakistan Army from fencing the disputed Durand line. Panic in GHQ.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 95650?s=20 ---> Pakistan to procure a used Global 6000 business jet Airplane for EW/VIP movement purpose.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 09827?s=20 ---> Pak Army is going to purchase a second-hand Global 6000 VIP business jet, so that Pak Generals can fly to Europe non-stop. Current Pak VIP jets have to stop in Middle East for refueling.
*The Ummah not giving gas for free? :lol:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

K Mehta wrote:Let me rephrase my words to fizzleya f 16 have failed as seen in swift retreat or they are unaffordable to maintain for a reasonable future. This can be due to lack of spares as pakonomy is in shambles especially dollar reserves.
They failed in Swift Retort because of Avenger 1 and 2, a pair of Rambhas :) Then Wing Commander (now Group Captain) Abhinandan Varthaman, VrC and his wingman also complicated matters for them. The F-16 is not to blame, but rather the PAF pilots. Their lack of training - especially in BVR combat - is to blame. They failed to take into account the IAF response.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

6 f16 to paf came in 82/83, theybare the oldest - 39 years under peacegate 1.

34 f16 came to paf in 83-87 under peacegate 2. These range 39-35 years old.(btw first tranche of mig29 also came to india in 85, so they kust be old too - comparable, indeed mig29 werw indias reactionary purchase against paf f16. I cudnt find the exct deiveriea of our oldest mig29. How old are the oldeat mig29s ? Anyone here?)

Later 18 f16 came under peacegate 3 but paf didnt want to call it peacegate3 due to its bad history.

Additionally 14 adfs second hand came from jordan. These are useless f16s not even bvr equipped. Rest all f16 have mlu from turkey and can fire amram C5.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Anujan »

K Mehta wrote:I think the main reason why J 10 is being bought is because the F16 has failed. There is a spare parts crisis which can also be leading to this.
More plausibly, it is because Bundaar failed and Tejas is getting inducted.

JF-17 cant take on the Bison, leave alone Mirages, Tejas and Sukhois

If Tejas MK1 FOC, MK1A is inducted in numbers, fizzleya is toast, they will meet or exceed anything in Pak arsenal, including upgraded F16s. We know that MK1 FOC is better that non-upgraded Mirage 2000, (by the way, in swift retreat Pakis made sure to avoid dustup with the mirages), with AESA and Astra, there is nothing currently in Paki arsenral that can take on the Tejas.

You have to hand it to the Pakis to keep their rust bucket flying by quick off the shelf purchases.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 63106?s=20 ---> Report: Pakistan Air Force's (PAF) ​twin-seater JF-17B LIFT squadron has been grounded from August till at least November (maybe still grounded now) after one such jet crashed due to total failure of flight control system. A foreign customer also cancelled evaluation of the JF-17B.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 35207?s=20 ---> A couple of flights may have been carried out this month but most restrictions still in place.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

I wonder if the induction of J10 has anything to do with FC1 not able to use PL15.

If FC1 is suppose to come with an AESA & PL15, what extra is J10 bringing to the table? Why induct another type with a different engine.. with the same sensor, radar & weapons?

My opinion is that FC1 is a dead end design. Chinis or Russians don't have a compact F414 type engine. This would forever hamstrung FC1 as a under powered jet. PAF is facing the same problem that we are facing with LCA. Lower on-station time, with no tankers on the horizon.

PAF would want a F16 level loadout & on-station time. For that you need to make a bigger fighter, but there is no suitable engine. And more importantly there is no cash to build a new one.. i.e. MK2 version like we are doing.

Looks like both IAF & PAF made the same mistake in their ASQR!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Brad Goodman »

I have a question for learned maulanas here on Paki Mirage 3/5 platforms. How are they able to keep them flying? If Mirage 2K is considered like obsolete from spares perspective and we are scrambling to get frames from bone yards to maintain then the Mirage 3/5 should have been desperately grounded decades ago? How do they get critical spares for engines which are off assembly lines for 2 + decades?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by LakshmanPST »

YashG wrote:6 f16 to paf came in 82/83, theybare the oldest - 39 years under peacegate 1.

34 f16 came to paf in 83-87 under peacegate 2. These range 39-35 years old.(btw first tranche of mig29 also came to india in 85, so they kust be old too - comparable, indeed mig29 werw indias reactionary purchase against paf f16. I cudnt find the exct deiveriea of our oldest mig29. How old are the oldeat mig29s ? Anyone here?)

Later 18 f16 came under peacegate 3 but paf didnt want to call it peacegate3 due to its bad history.

Additionally 14 adfs second hand came from jordan. These are useless f16s not even bvr equipped. Rest all f16 have mlu from turkey and can fire amram C5.
Some corrections...
40 F16 A/B bought in 1980s under 'PeaceGate' I & II and upgraded in 2005 deal
28 F16 A/B built in 1990s under 'PeaceGate' III & IV, but not handed over... 14 of these jets handed over after upgrading in 2005 deal...
18 F16 C/D bought in 2005 deal...
13 F16 ADF jets bought from Jordan in 2013... These jets are actually 3rd hand jets (not 2nd hand)... Jordan bought them from USA's Air National Guard after 3000 hours flying and extended the airframe life by extra 5000 hours under an MLU...
-
Total 11 F16 A/Bs lost till date... But only 10 losses officially accepted by Pakistan... Everyone knows the story of 11th jet...
-
Current composition
43 F16A/B MLU
18 F16C/D
13 F16 ADF
Total F16s in operation:- 74 jets
----
F16 Squadrons--->
4 Combat squadrons:-
No. 5 Falcons - F16 C/D - 18 jets - PAF Base Shahbaz
No. 9 Griffins - F16 A/B - 17/18 jets - PAF Base Mushaf
No. 11 Arrows - F16 A/B - 17/18 jets - PAF Base Shahbaz
No. 19 Sherdils - F16 ADF - 13 jets - PAF Base Bholari
Advanced Tactics Training squadron:-
No. 29 Aggresors - F16 A/B - 8 jets - PAF Base Mushaf
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7830&p=2488426&hilit=ORBAT#p2488426
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 03 Jan 2022 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ShivS »

This is the unsaid problem before the PAF. Nearly 60% of the fighter fleet will be over 40 years old by 2025-2027. F7/Mirage3,5/F16 A/B.

Apart from having to conserve flight hours on old airframes, the other and bigger issue is that avionics upgrades on such old frames make no sense. That condemns you to fighting with 20 year old avionics - quite a problem today as the IAF modernisation begins.

Matter of time before the PAF moves to a 12-15 squadron structure - and even then they would need updgrades on the JF 17 and 5-7 squadrons of a J10 C equivalent to maintain a high low mix of acceptable capability.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

K Mehta wrote:Found this interesting image in this dawn article

The photo is very badly photoshopped reapat very badly. Note the folding of the pocket with the name tag. They have added name tag and bullet proof armor to the photos. I feel that they are ashamed to show normal photos and are adding bullet proof armor to make up for actual lack of kit in the field.
I suspect these did not die in North Waziristan but BAT operation in Kupwara
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Brad Goodman wrote:I have a question for learned maulanas here on Paki Mirage 3/5 platforms. How are they able to keep them flying? If Mirage 2K is considered like obsolete from spares perspective and we are scrambling to get frames from bone yards to maintain then the Mirage 3/5 should have been desperately grounded decades ago? How do they get critical spares for engines which are off assembly lines for 2 + decades?
Thats the black hole and why did they not retire them when JF-17 came not retire the Chinese F-7 variants inducted after these aircraft were bought? What is their fleet availability and how many sorties can they fly before the fleet becomes unsuable.

I suspect PAF keep them for H&D numbers(JF-17+ F16 fleet will be under 200 +30 odd F-7PG) and for Initial strikes, keep the IAF radars engaged with bogies but in a real war they will not be very useful.

If the PAF retires them they will feel very little deterrence against the IAF, these Aircraft will show up on IAF radars and IAF will need planes to keep them engaged or atleast disrupt 27-Feb-19 type H-4 PGMs. Or they can be used as decoys to lure IAF fighters and then turn back, opening Gaps for the real strike aircraft.

Basically the PAF does this to keep up the game of bluff as they feel they do not have enough F-16s to keep the IAF Rafales, Su 30 Mig 29 M-2000 and LCA Tejas , add to this they found out on 27-Feb-19 that the Bison was a potent platform.

LCA Tejas in numbers and Super Sukhoi upgrade with mean PAF will go even more on the defensive
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by LakshmanPST »

Fighter jet strength of PAF is only 16 Combat squadrons, 4 Training squadrons and 4 smaller CCS squadrons...
-
In the 16 combat squadrons,
4 squadrons are F16
5 squadrons are JF17 Blocks 1 & 2
2 squadrons are F7 PG
5 squadrons are Mirage 3 & 5
-
2 squadrons JF Block 3s will be inducted over the next 2-3 years and will replace F7s...
-
5 squadrons of Mirages will probably be in operation for another decade and will be retired in 2030s... Speculation in Pakistani forums is thst PAF will buy 100 more J10Cs, apart from the 25 the Chinese already gave...
These 5 squadrons will replace the Mirages by early 2030s...
-
They'll operate the 2 squadrons of older F16s and 1 ADF squadron until 2040s... The MLU extended the life of the airframes upto 8000 hours, which is quite long...
Not sure what the replacement jet will be...
-
If the 100 J10 speculation is right, by 2030s PAF Combat squadron strength will be:-
4 squadrons F16s
5 squadrons J10s
7 squadrons JF17s

A decent mix actually...
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by LakshmanPST »

Also, there is a possibility that PAF can get access to 2nd hand or 3rd hand F16s...
Most of the F16 nations are in the process of buying F35s... Soon there will be lot of old F16s available...
If PAF can play its cards right, they can do a ROSE with these F16s...
-
End of the day, it all depends on Khan Chacha and to what level he wants to alter the power balance in South Asia...
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

So basically the Truth inspite of all Hi pitched Marketing, the JF-17 has some serious deficiencies, so PAF os hoping for F16 or J10 donations , otherwise they are 5 squadron f-16 Airforce with Mirage 3/V, JF-17 and F-7 PG acting as decoys.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Please visit the Indian Naval Aviation thread to view the article on the Indian Navy's MPA.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 37291?s=20 ---> A nice look at Maritime Patrol Aircraft progress and acquisitions between Indian and Pakistan navies...from our upcoming Indian Navy Special Issue. We've tweeted this in bits and pieces over the few months but have put it all together now for ease of understanding.

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Rakesh wrote:Please visit the Indian Naval Aviation thread to view the article on the Indian Navy's MPA.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 37291?s=20 ---> A nice look at Maritime Patrol Aircraft progress and acquisitions between Indian and Pakistan navies...from our upcoming Indian Navy Special Issue. We've tweeted this in bits and pieces over the few months but have put it all together ]
This deal takes of corruption, the manufacture Embrarer has not done such a conversion yet for the type, apparently 3rd party non aircraft manufacturing Italian and South African vendors will convert this to MPA, seems a real wild goose chase.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya G »

Aditya_V wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Please visit the Indian Naval Aviation thread to view the article on the Indian Navy's MPA.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 37291?s=20 ---> A nice look at Maritime Patrol Aircraft progress and acquisitions between Indian and Pakistan navies...from our upcoming Indian Navy Special Issue. We've tweeted this in bits and pieces over the few months but have put it all together ]
This deal takes of corruption, the manufacture Embrarer has not done such a conversion yet for the type, apparently 3rd party non aircraft manufacturing Italian and South African vendors will convert this to MPA, seems a real wild goose chase.
They have accomplished this recently with ATR-72.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by arvin »

All of them will be second hand purchases. They already operate ATR -72 (RAS 72 MPA) with Leonardo's SeaSpray radar. Should have been sufficient considering their small coastline. Why would they need a Biz jet range and speed would be a good question. Their Airforce seem to be happy with turboprop Awacs.
Unless China had a role to play in aircraft selection.
As per this Link the aircraft in the tweet, could have been flying with a Chinese airline.
It is the first of up to ten required to replace the P-3 Orion. The airframe is not converted to Maritime Patrol configuration and is in fact fitted out as VIP transport. The ERJ190BJ (construction number 19000453) was obtained second hand from China Southern Airlines General Aviation, where it flew as B-3203.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ldev »

Some speculation online that what the PAF will get won't be new build J-10Cs but older PLAAF J-10Bs with the AL-31F engines where the PESA radars will be swapped out for newer AESA radars. The AESA radars will enable better utilization of the PL-15 AAMs so they hope.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by AkshaySG »

Aditya_V wrote:
This deal takes of corruption, the manufacture Embrarer has not done such a conversion yet for the type, apparently 3rd party non aircraft manufacturing Italian and South African vendors will convert this to MPA, seems a real wild goose chase.
Considering their financial issues and meager budget already monopolized by Army its a big achievement if they can get 10 of these at all , No matter who is converting them or their performance

In this regards and AWAACS , They have gotten the "availability " portion pretty well covered ,
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

ldev wrote:Some speculation online that what the PAF will get won't be new build J-10Cs but older PLAAF J-10Bs with the AL-31F engines where the PESA radars will be swapped out for newer AESA radars. The AESA radars will enable better utilization of the PL-15 AAMs so they hope.
Bakis are very high on the raw stuff.. saw some on Twitter claiming it is near 5th Gen and will kill 4.5 Gen Rafale within seconds... because the nose is bigger than the nose of the Rafale :mrgreen:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote:Bakis are very high on the raw stuff.. saw some on Twitter claiming it is near 5th Gen and will kill 4.5 Gen Rafale within seconds... because the nose is bigger than the nose of the Rafale :mrgreen:
Saar, I am amazed why they need the J-10 to kill the Rafale. They were claiming that JF-17 Block III was going to make kheema of the Rafale, as the PAF was getting the non-export, 300+ km version of the PL-15 and the Block III variant of the JF-17 was far superior to the Rafale.
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