Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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ldev
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ldev »

AkshaySG wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
This deal takes of corruption, the manufacture Embrarer has not done such a conversion yet for the type, apparently 3rd party non aircraft manufacturing Italian and South African vendors will convert this to MPA, seems a real wild goose chase.
Considering their financial issues and meager budget already monopolized by Army its a big achievement if they can get 10 of these at all , No matter who is converting them or their performance

In this regards and AWAACS , They have gotten the "availability " portion pretty well covered ,
Correct. Pakistan does not have the money to buy new build J-10Cs and China's interest is in creating the most cost effective nuisance for India so older PLAAF J-10Bs with an AESA radar will be called "J-10Cs" by the PAF.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by bharathp »

Manish_P wrote:
Bakis are very high on the raw stuff.. saw some on Twitter claiming it is near 5th Gen and will kill 4.5 Gen Rafale within seconds... because the nose is bigger than the nose of the Rafale :mrgreen:
by that logic they can put some of those pl15 mizziles on their PIA aircraft - much bigger nose - so much more generations ahead and can kill raphel from much farther away

or cut open then jf solahs to expose more nose

cut your nose to spite your neighbour
nam
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

Let the Paks first put out a video of FC1 firing the SD10.. then we can assume PL15 is going to come.

FC1/JF17 is the only claimed "BVR-capable" fighter in the world, which has never been seen firing the BVR!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:Please visit the Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread thread to view the article on the Pakistan Navy's MPA.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 37291?s=20 ---> A nice look at Maritime Patrol Aircraft progress and acquisitions between Indian and Pakistan navies...from our upcoming Indian Navy Special Issue. We've tweeted this in bits and pieces over the few months but have put it all together now for ease of understanding.
Sea Sultan reeks of corruption atleast they got nice jet to carry the cash to there overseas banks.

Why? SA group Paramount which has never done anything like this is doing the conversion and Leonardo was suddenly relegated to supplying the radar. Not much details available and deals were signed very quickly with little info released. Choosing an AC which is good as dead as none are being produced in last 4 years and no new orders and worse existing customers of 28 that were sold are dumping it. Paying top price for this (2nd hand jet) indicates some one is getting paid off nicely in this deal.

To top it all off Pakistani officials acknowledge it will cost around 90 million each, lot of money for a platform with not much capability and cost is bound to escalate as work starts.
Aditya_V
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

I suggest Paki panic, next time they may not have h&d face saver.
Karan M
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

Brad Goodman wrote:I have a question for learned maulanas here on Paki Mirage 3/5 platforms. How are they able to keep them flying? If Mirage 2K is considered like obsolete from spares perspective and we are scrambling to get frames from bone yards to maintain then the Mirage 3/5 should have been desperately grounded decades ago? How do they get critical spares for engines which are off assembly lines for 2 + decades?
They are flying them less and less, and only for special ground attack profiles - H4 delivery etc.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ShivS »

Treat the 8000 hours so 50 year life pitch for the F16 with a bit of scepticism. The F16 routinely flies 200 hours plus a year in most air forces. That’s a 40 year life unless you start rationing flight hours. As the a/b models get phased out in global air forces the cost of operation will rise pretty fast - the other leg of the cost u curve.

It’s a bit optimistic to see the Mirage 3/5 flying much beyond 2025, they are 5-10 years or so older than the IAF Mirage 2000s and have not been thru a complete rebuild like the 2000. ROSE was all about sensors and avionics.

By 2030 the PAF will need to retire over half the F16 fleet, the Mirage fleet and the F7 fleet. That’s a very large number of aircraft.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ShivS »

J10 B was offered to the PAF in 2011 - they consistently refused the aircraft till now. This looks more like an acceptance that’s the F16 pipeline is dry for now. And they need some AESA capability.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Mirage 3/V are much older than 5-10 years of the M-2000, Mirage 3/5 production ended before the M-2000 production started, Paki fleet is from late60's to 70's. Later than the Last Mig-21 Bis later converted to Bisons of the IAF which ended production in 1985.

All major Airforces like the French, Israelis etc phased them out by the beginning of the 90's. Some low budget airforces kept them in semi moth balled condition for 20 years. With French Production stopped 40 years ago, inspite of Paki claims I doubt this fleet can be operationally useful, they can be used for Decoys in peacetime and for 1 or 2 strike operations and then the fleet in a real war scenario will be grounded in 1 or 2 days.
Manish_P
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Bakis are very high on the raw stuff.. saw some on Twitter claiming it is near 5th Gen and will kill 4.5 Gen Rafale within seconds... because the nose is bigger than the nose of the Rafale :mrgreen:
Saar, I am amazed why they need the J-10 to kill the Rafale. They were claiming that JF-17 Block III was going to make kheema of the Rafale, as the PAF was getting the non-export, 300+ km version of the PL-15 and the Block III variant of the JF-17 was far superior to the Rafale.
Admiral saab, you remember correctly. As per the Bakis the JF-17 Block III will make Kheema of the Rafale, but making Kheema takes time doesn't it... The J-10 will kill the Rafale 'within seconds' you see... Aap kripaya bhavnao ko samjhiye :lol:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

Aditya_V wrote:Mirage 3/V are much older than 5-10 years of the M-2000, Mirage 3/5 production ended before the M-2000 production started, Paki fleet is from late60's to 70's. Later than the Last Mig-21 Bis later converted to Bisons of the IAF which ended production in 1985.

All major Airforces like the French, Israelis etc phased them out by the beginning of the 90's. Some low budget airforces kept them in semi moth balled condition for 20 years. With French Production stopped 40 years ago, inspite of Paki claims I doubt this fleet can be operationally useful, they can be used for Decoys in peacetime and for 1 or 2 strike operations and then the fleet in a real war scenario will be grounded in 1 or 2 days.
They can absorb some volleys of S400, LRSAM, MRSAM atleast + it makes the numbers look good + Mirage Rebuild Facility is quite comprehensive, its a lot of headache (absorbs operational bandwidth) at very low cost. PAF is ready to spend a lot of operations bandwidth, since they cant spend money.

IF IAF would buy second hand mirage 2000, it would spend ops bandwidth on them too ( this bandwidth could be used for other things with better RoI). But for the same bandwidth spent, IAF's RoI will be higher - since quality of our upgrades now deliver better RoI due to indigenous line items available (Although AFAIK mirage upgrade doesnt have indian components - unlike Mig29 which has D29 for example).

-----------------------------

F16 C/D will still be better than J10C, it would be PAF's first choice - goes on to show probably
#1 J10 B, C inherently has quality issues - ones that dont come out in public but PAF has figure it out
#2 JF17 is not receiving the quality upgrades PAF would expect. JF17''s AESA is not that great [this was discussed on this forum sometime back - its cooling issues, range etc.], mostly China is not ready to support it with top dollars that the program needs
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Please drag & drop picture into new window to read the captions in the photograph.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 61216?s=20 ---> This latest image offers a complete look at the PAC JF-17C "Thunder" Block III airframe, allowing us to mark some important components fitted on the platform.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 34466?s=20 ---> Correction: JF-17 Block III will be powered by standard RD-93, fitted on preceding blocks.

Image
Vips
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

Going against their earlier tall claims, the Block III Junk Fighter does not have: IRST, Air to Air refueling capability and from the size of the Radome - No Aesa too :rotfl:
nam
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

Again no vidoe or any other proof of Pl15 integration or firing.

The metal cutting was done almost a year back. So it was around one year of testing! They have to atleast give some specification for the production to start.

What exactly can one test in a year? Other than a AESA radar, I don't think anything worth while was integrated.

Hurried up just for showing off the "counter" to Rafale!
Vips
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

What metal cutting and What testing?

This is a Chinese product through and through, It is received in CKD kit form by pakistan and even the instruction sheets (in urdu) for assembling the kits are printed in China. :lol:
S_Madhukar
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by S_Madhukar »

Do all our jets have MAWS and RWR? All PAF will do is shoot one down that doesn’t and use that video for PAF day for the next decade... their goals are different and ours are different!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

Vips wrote:Going against their earlier tall claims, the Block III Junk Fighter does not have: IRST, Air to Air refueling capability and from the size of the Radome - No Aesa too :rotfl:
Problem for us is, even without any of that this is still a huge upgrade for the PAF over what they would be replacing - F-7's and Mirage-3/5's which would have been next to useless in a real conflict and shoring up numbers as well. And happening at a time when IAF's numerical strength is projected to stay the same at best for the foreseeable future and the threat of a two-front war is real.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

S_Madhukar wrote:Do all our jets have MAWS and RWR? All PAF will do is shoot one down that doesn’t and use that video for PAF day for the next decade... their goals are different and ours are different!
Tarang RWR has been fitted onto Jaguars. Darin 2 & 3 & Mig21 Bison.
Mig29, MKI and M2000 also have RWR.

Most IAF planes have RWR & HUD. I would be surprised if JF17 B1,2 didnt have RWR. HUD they didnt have till now.

MAWS we dont have on all planes .Mig29 UPG has MAWS from DRDO.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya G »

At least its confirmed that the jet will be painted in Pakistan.
Rakesh wrote:Please drag & drop picture into new window to read the captions in the photograph.
Manish_P
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

nachiket wrote: Problem for us is, even without any of that this is still a huge upgrade for the PAF over what they would be replacing - F-7's and Mirage-3/5's which would have been next to useless in a real conflict and shoring up numbers as well. And happening at a time when IAF's numerical strength is projected to stay the same at best for the foreseeable future and the threat of a two-front war is real.
+1

Also need to factor in their AEW aircraft numbers. The Saab 2000 Erieye may feature less powerful, shorter range detection capabilities as compared to the chappatis but there a important factor nonetheless, especially since we will be the raiders.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

nachiket wrote:
Vips wrote:Going against their earlier tall claims, the Block III Junk Fighter does not have: IRST, Air to Air refueling capability and from the size of the Radome - No Aesa too :rotfl:
Problem for us is, even without any of that this is still a huge upgrade for the PAF over what they would be replacing - F-7's and Mirage-3/5's which would have been next to useless in a real conflict and shoring up numbers as well. And happening at a time when IAF's numerical strength is projected to stay the same at best for the foreseeable future and the threat of a two-front war is real.
In addition, if the paki J-10 is cleared to fire the PL-15, which is likely, that's a major capability jump for them matching the rafale's range. And since the rafales cant be everywhere, every other fighter will be at a disadvantage regarding engagement ranges till we can spread out the AstraMk2 fleetwide. IAF will have live with this handicap and modify their engagement rules accordingly.
Hopefully the IAF does some fear mongering and lights a fire under the govt's chair, so that they start funding projects properly and stop the 'for show only' drip-funding mode.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by fanne »

There is always -'for show only' drip-funding mode. Not in this GOI. IAF has been given ample choices - including repeat order of 36 Rafale, duly muddied with we need MFRA, upgrade of SU30MKI (with upgraded R-77, per speculations, they are already here), Astra mk1 and MK2 (the program is going fast, can it be faster? I guess yes. If the J-10 are being rushed, the PAF pilot could be operational by this OCt-November, likely flashpoint time of 2 front war, I think by that time we can qualify these missiles on SU30MKI and Mig 29/LCA and produce in numbers to be a counter), can we somehow have SFDR speeded?

The solutions is all there staring in our face. Many of these are fully in our control, just a will and stearedwership are needed, from IAF, and if they do not rise to the occasion then someone from MOD.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

fanne ji, yes this govt has done a much better job at doing more with less, but it has a fundamental tendency of holding back on spending. this results in 'drip funding' of projects that require torrential funding. both in defence and elsewhere. Wont go into details but that's been the case unfortunately.
they need to come out of this low spending mentality if we have to catch up with the dragon.
I wont compare with previous govt because that's an insult to this one.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by YashG »

Dont compare with previous govt. Anything is better than zero. Also it doesnt solve the problem. We need one-up on china-pak, not previous govt.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

One of the consequences of the 2019 fight and the subsequent drama is that both the airforce(probably chini as well) may not want to go in each others airspace.

It will become a PR fight. Both side will fire BVR at long range. Nobody would know who shot whom...how many fighters fell.

With long standoff and pgm, lot of strikes will from friendly airspace.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by konaseema »

Our IAF's need are endless and hence I think the current government is providing everything that they need for their immediate need. Everything else is being prioritized so that we build the credible tactical deterrence to avoid a war against both the enemy states. Hence the flurry of missile tests last year and that will continue well into 2024-25. This is a cat & mouse game and it will take few years to tilt the balance once your adversary goes one up on a capability.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rahul M wrote:I wont compare with previous govt because that's an insult to this one.
UPA right? Not the 2014 Modi lead govt.?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Vayutuvan wrote:UPA right? Not the 2014 Modi lead govt.?
Yes
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ShivS »

Lots of angst - but these things take time.

By 2035 we should see a PAF that has 14/16 squadrons of JF 17, J10/F16 and perhaps some J20.

Key to countering these will be the evolution of Uttam, Astra, AWACS, the SU30 upgrade and the replacement of the Jaguars.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

ShivS wrote:Lots of angst - but these things take time.

By 2035 we should see a PAF that has 14/16 squadrons of JF 17, J10/F16 and perhaps some J20.

Key to countering these will be the evolution of Uttam, Astra, AWACS, the SU30 upgrade and the replacement of the Jaguars.
The key would be the production and induction of the Tejas Mk2 in very large numbers. The sooner we understand it and make all efforts towards that goal the better. It is not just the Jaguars which would be long in the tooth by 2035 but the Mig-29's and M2k's as well. There is only one aircraft which can replace all three equally well without breaking the bank.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by VinodTK »

Pakistan denies reports of canceling Turkish chopper deal amid US deadlock
Pakistan on Friday denied media reports that the country had canceled a deal to buy dozens of attack helicopters from Turkey amid long-lasting limbo with the United States over its refusal to issue an export license for engines that power the choppers.
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Vips
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Vips »

The Chinese Junk which Pakistan is buying is in the Heavy (Apache equivalent) class whereas the T129 is the light (LCH equivalent) class.
If Yindoos can have both types, why cannot the Porkis if they are ready to apply vaseline and also ever ready to eat grass?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Brad Goodman »

Anyone has any thoughts on Block 3 of bandar some reports say they are using same RD93 engine and other think this is the newer one
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

Same old engine. Looks like the addition is AESA radar & MAWS.

No proof of PL15 firing.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

M1y only question is where are pics of AESA being fitted during trials, various BVR firing trials, A2A refuelling, any aircraft programme has multiple views of these.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by ShivS »

nachiket wrote:
ShivS wrote:Lots of angst - but these things take time.

The key would be the production and induction of the Tejas Mk2 in very large numbers. The sooner we understand it and make all efforts towards that goal the better. It is not just the Jaguars which would be long in the tooth by 2035 but the Mig-29's and M2k's as well. There is only one aircraft which can replace all three equally well without breaking the bank.
Jags are long in the tooth today - never intended as a frontline fighter aircraft and with the DPSA role being subsumed by stand off munitions and cruise/other missiles they have a ever shrinking capability and role footprint. Need them replaced well before 2035.

Honestly as a 35 plus squadron force we need to replace 15-18 every year.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

https://twitter.com/bishwa55900127/stat ... 3446676484

Pakistan suffered more than double the losses of India in Security Forces KIA due to terrorism in 2021 as per SATP data

This incl casualties of PakistanArmy, Paramilitary and Police

You reap what you sow.. sometimes more..

These are admitted figures. hidden may be more
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/sohailahmedsa/statu ... 84964?s=20 ---> 9 Pakistani AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters are currently stored at 309th Aerospace Maintenance And Regeneration Group (AMARG), Tucson (AZ).

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by Cain Marko »

While the case for a larger budget is definitely on, I don't think GOI has been sitting around twiddling it's thumbs. Lots of quickk orders were given soon after Balakote, and plenty of leeway for forces to fill gaps. With rafales and s400s already here, tsp getting j10s is not really an issue. This was likely expected and accounted for ages ago.mki upgrades and more quick additions like fulcrums and M2Ks is likely the cheapest and the quickest way forward. Possibly leasing su30sm and rafale might be another way forward.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

ShivS wrote: Jags are long in the tooth today - never intended as a frontline fighter aircraft and with the DPSA role being subsumed by stand off munitions and cruise/other missiles they have a ever shrinking capability and role footprint. Need them replaced well before 2035.

Honestly as a 35 plus squadron force we need to replace 15-18 every year.
What do you mean Jags were never intended to be frontline fighter aircraft? Why buy them in that case? And (limited) availability of standoff munitions does not change the fact that IAF would need every available airframe to carry out all necessary strike missions in the case of all-out war. Integrating new indigenous PGM's on Jaguars should not be a problem. With a historically low numerical strength the IAF is in no position to retire anything unless the aircraft is too dangerous to keep flying. Especially one which it is spending precious funds on upgrading. They can't even retire the Bisons yet. The Jaguars aren't going anywhere before running out their remaining airframe life.
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