Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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Bart S
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Bart S »

YashG wrote:Pakistanis have always been ingenuous when it comes to use second hand maal to fill their gaps.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/198363/be ... of-service

Belgian C130Js were bought in 70s, PAF bought theirs in 63. In 22, Belgian C130s are 50 years old. PAF C130Js were also upgraded in 2016. So if PAF C130Js are probably going to pony up for 3-5 years more. That would give PAF's belgian C130Js atleast (7 + 3/5) 10-12 years of life till 2032-34.
They are not C130J (which is the stretched, modernized, currently produced version).
YashG
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

^^^made the change. thanks
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Dilbu »

Ukraine sanctions on Russia virtually ground Pak’s JF-17 fighter programme
Pakistan has bypassed its partner China and directly approached Russia for procuring spare parts for Klimov RD 93 engine for JF-17 fleet and is now trying to arrange US dollars as original equipment supplier M/s Rosoboronexport has been hit by western sanctions.
Stung by multiple failures of JF-17 aircraft, primarily due to the serviceability of RD-93 engines, Pakistan had directly approached Russia for procuring the RD-93 engines, bypassing China. In the aftermath of multiple negotiations by Islamabad with Moscow, Russian engine company Kilmov has now indicated its willingness to supply RD-93 engines and its associated repair systems and maintenance facilities to JF-17 aircraft.
Russia has been strengthening its defence ties with Pakistan by allowing it to procure the RD-93 engine directly from it as opposed to using China as an intermediary as was the case previously. However, international relations are in a state of flux and strategic equations are changing fast with Russia coming under pressure from the West and looking for support from others. It is apparent that Russia is moving close to China in the evolving geo­ political matrix which is sought to be exploited by Pakistan.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by rajsunder »

YashG wrote:Pakistanis have always been ingenuous when it comes to use second hand maal to fill their gaps.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/198363/be ... of-service

Belgian C130swere bought in 70s, PAF bought theirs in 63. In 22, Belgian C130s are 50 years old. PAF C130s were also upgraded in 2016. So if PAF C130s are probably going to pony up for 3-5 years more. That would give PAF's belgian C130s atleast (7 + 3/5) 10-12 years of life till 2032-34.
purchasing 2nd hand weapons is the best way for generals to get $ for some more pizza franchises.
YashG
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

PAF seven C130 deal is 500-700 million USD ( https://www.timesnownews.com/world/paki ... e-93505650 ). Roughly 85 m usd per plane with ~ 7-10 year life. At 50 year life, i.e. > 14%-20% life with upgrades.

I dont know enough to mk a call on goodness of deal.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... camouflage


A new batch of J-10CE fighter jets being manufactured by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) have been seen with tactical camouflage colours. This suggests that the aircraft may be used in the low-level maritime strike role.

Imagery of the latest batch of J-10CEs under construction in China shows that the aircraft carry a green-gray camouflage scheme with sky blue undersides. The livery is a departure from the J-10's standard colour scheme of low-visibility gray. At least two separate J-10s have been photographed with this camouflage scheme, according to images, which have appeared on Weibo.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Just listened to DGISPR Barber and his presentation on the uniformed terrorist actions for rescue and relief and I have some thoughts.
This was allegedly the flooding of "Biblical proportions" caused due to climate changes for which no payment of compensation is made to the Pakis.

Yet the "establishment" response has been underwhelming to say the least.
Pakis have been able to muster up ~270 sorties(army) and ~135 sorties (fizzleya) since Jul end(34-35 days).
Image
And this is when 1/3rd of Pak is flood affected.
For comparison, here is Op Megh Rahat in UT of J&K and Ladakh in 2014 and VayuSena+AAC numbers(10-11 days)
Eighty transport aircraft and helicopters of Indian Air Force and Army Aviation Corps are continuing their efforts in rescue and relief operations. Army has deployed around 30,000 troops for rescue and relief operations in the flood affected area. More than 5,08,000 litres of water and over 1054 tonnes of food packets and cooked food have already been distributed in the flood-affected areas.

So far 2451 sorties were undertaken by the helicopters and aircraft of Armed Forces and 3435 tonnes of relief materials have been dropped by the Indian Air Force. A total of 224 boats of Army and 148 NDRF’s inflatable boats are actively involved in the rescue operation.
Link

I feel for the Pakis who have had to bankroll such an inefficient and lethargic organisation.
CalvinH
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by CalvinH »

Add to that the Paki armed forces are on a buying spree with J-10, C-130 and new armored vehicles. While the nation drowns in debt and literally the Armed forces continue to enjoy.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

MeshaVishwas wrote:Just listened to DGISPR Barber and his presentation on the uniformed terrorist actions for rescue and relief and I have some thoughts.
This was allegedly the flooding of "Biblical proportions" caused due to climate changes for which no payment of compensation is made to the Pakis.

Yet the "establishment" response has been underwhelming to say the least.
Pakis have been able to muster up ~270 sorties(army) and ~135 sorties .......

So far 2451 sorties were undertaken by the helicopters and aircraft of Armed Forces and 3435 tonnes of relief materials have been dropped by the Indian Air Force. A total of 224 boats of Army and 148 NDRF’s inflatable boats are actively involved in the rescue operation.
Link

Great observation!
thats a 25X difference in deployment. A mix of "dont care" + "Capability gap" (saving spares on old airframes, limited airframe life left, not enough operations budget...etc.)

Even if "dont care" is most of the reason, capability gap is easily several times
YashG
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

YashG wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Just listened to DGISPR Barber and his presentation on the uniformed terrorist actions for rescue and relief and I have some thoughts.
This was allegedly the flooding of "Biblical proportions" caused due to climate changes for which no payment of compensation is made to the Pakis.

Yet the "establishment" response has been underwhelming to say the least.
Pakis have been able to muster up ~270 sorties(army) and ~135 sorties .......

So far 2451 sorties were undertaken by the helicopters and aircraft of Armed Forces and 3435 tonnes of relief materials have been dropped by the Indian Air Force. A total of 224 boats of Army and 148 NDRF’s inflatable boats are actively involved in the rescue operation.
Great observation!
thats a 25X difference in deployment. A mix of "dont care" + "Capability gap" (saving spares on old airframes, limited airframe life left, not enough operations budget...etc.)

Even if "dont care" is most of the reason, capability gap is easily several times
kit
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kit »



How Pakistan is aiding the Ukranian offensive ; all chummy with the original ukies

wonder what their Quid pro quo is ?!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Amit_G »

How would Russia react to the Paki arms being made available to Ukraine? Would Russia stop RD-33 spares for the JF-17 fighters that Pakistan has? Do the Paki J10s have the AL-31 engine which has Russian origin?
kit
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Amit_G wrote:How would Russia react to the Paki arms being made available to Ukraine? Would Russia stop RD-33 spares for the JF-17 fighters that Pakistan has? Do the Paki J10s have the AL-31 engine which has Russian origin?
they do have RD33 not AL31.,
Amit_G
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Amit_G »

kit wrote:
Amit_G wrote:How would Russia react to the Paki arms being made available to Ukraine? Would Russia stop RD-33 spares for the JF-17 fighters that Pakistan has? Do the Paki J10s have the AL-31 engine which has Russian origin?
they do have RD33 not AL31.,
I thought J10 were initially made with AL-31 and then AL-31s were replaced by the WS-10<X> engines. As far as I know (knowledge from Wikipedia), that J10s had AL-31 and now WS-10.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Pakistan Navy’s Modernisation Is ‘Both Shaken And Not Well Stirred’
https://bharatshakti.in/pakistan-navys- ... l-stirred/
07 Sept 2022
ramana
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Biden just gave $450M sustainment aid to Pak F-16s.
This means they don't have hope of F-21s for MRFA and most likely F-18s.
mody
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Biden approves $450 million Fleet Sustainment Program for Paki F-16s. More payout for the pigs. Not clear from the article, if the package is a military aid package or if the Pakis will have to pay something. The article claims that it doesn't involve any new capabilities or weapons systems though.
Nonetheless, a big relief for the pakis. Keeps all the spares flowing, along with possible modernisation of the engine and maybe some software upgrades.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/bi ... 0aa724ae53
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

India should protest, and condition some of its cooperation against total stop on any military aid to Pak whatsoever. And threaten to break the purportedly US brokered cease fire in J&K unless this happens.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Amit_G wrote:
kit wrote:
they do have RD33 not AL31.,
I thought J10 were initially made with AL-31 and then AL-31s were replaced by the WS-10<X> engines. As far as I know (knowledge from Wikipedia), that J10s had AL-31 and now WS-10.
The RD-33/RD-93 engines are used in the JF-17 Bunder and and not the J10CE. The pakis have only about 25 J10s and these are equipped with the Chinese WS-10 engines. They have about 120 JF-17s, with plans to induct a further 50-80 units. Without the RD-93 engines and /or spares, the fleet would get grounded. The Chinese do not have an equivalent engine readily available. Any development would take 2-3 years, even with Chinese timelines and changing the engines on the entire fleet would be a costly affair.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

mody wrote:Biden approves $450 million Fleet Sustainment Program for Paki F-16s. More payout for the pigs. Not clear from the article, if the package is a military aid package or if the Pakis will have to pay something. The article claims that it doesn't involve any new capabilities or weapons systems though.
Nonetheless, a big relief for the pakis. Keeps all the spares flowing, along with possible modernisation of the engine and maybe some software upgrades.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/bi ... 0aa724ae53
No aid Saar, full payment by bhooka nanga Pakis.
Looks like the Baj is getting ready with the golden parachute in khanland.Hope he finds success in his pizza store ops.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by bharathp »

Cyrano wrote:India should protest, and condition some of its cooperation against total stop on any military aid to Pak whatsoever. And threaten to break the purportedly US brokered cease fire in J&K unless this happens.
instead of protest, I would ask whats the point of QUAD/AUKUS hocus pocus if they continue to arm lackeys of the chinkis..
This feels like a bakshish/hafta by khan to keep TSP in its orbit.

This whole hafta thing baffles me.. while we have to pay hafta to roos, khan to be in their orbit, they pay hafta to TSP to keep in their orbit. I am certainly missing something in understanding
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

^^ They are propping up Pakistan against India's rise, just like they are propping up Taiwan against China. The target is India. They don't give rat's ass about Pakis.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by bharathp »

** sanjay garu. Taiwan to China and TSP to India is just not the same at this juncture and rapidly deterriorating.
In mushy days where TSP was puportedly stronger with khans full backing and India relatively weaker with mourn vrat and coalition dharmists at the helm it was probably a headache, right now no mango man SDREs are threatened anymore

to prop up TSP to even 3-5% of taiwans level, khan would have to sell a state nd even then there is no guarantee of loyalty or principles.

why would khan arm a country that openly sides with Taliban that apparently "won"? just baffling khan-esque stuff
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

TSP, Ukraine and Taiwan are very different, but have one thing in common : External dependency and willingness to be used by outsiders while ignoring their own sovereignty, situation and people's needs.

If the money and promise of support was there like for Ukraine, TSP will not hesitate to attack India, just like Ukraine is doing to Russia now. Gazwa et Hind is part of their Army motto.

The reason TSP is getting no such offer is because the west has little to gain by going after India right now. No oil, no resources, no super super tech, only 1.4 billion people to take care off. And we are not going around antagonising anyone.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Cyrano wrote:...

The reason TSP is getting no such offer is because the west has little to gain by going after India right now. No oil, no resources, no super super tech, only 1.4 billion people to take care off. And we are not going around antagonising anyone.
That's 1 billion + souls to be harvested.. hence a quiet & stealthy war is being fought.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Amit_G »

The Pakis have been given this aid for their F-16s is because they provided the ammunition for the Ukraine war. Pakistan has Ukraine origin weapons and if you read a few days ago, their Ordinance factory provided the supplies. They would not have done this unless they were given something in return...which is this support package for their F-16s.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Or they gave up Ayman Al Zawahiri
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Or its the stupid Americans trying to tell India that we can still needle you.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Amit_G »

Pratyush wrote:Or its the stupid Americans trying to tell India that we can still needle you.
I would not say that. They know needling India is difficult...it was done when CAATSA was threatened for S400 and India did not budge. It was not the same with Turkey when they were thrown out of the F35 program.

When it came to Russian oil, then also we got a waiver.

The American firms are participating in the MMRCA and the Naval 26 fighter RFPs.

There is too much at stake for US. And there is China as well.

Also, the Pakistanis got maintenance grant and as per the news there is no new weapons provided. It might be restricted to just spares to keep their F16s flying.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Luxtor »

ramana wrote:Biden just gave $450M sustainment aid to Pak F-16s.
This means they don't have hope of F-21s for MRFA and most likely F-18s.
Well, true. Whether they had any chance at all before was up to a debate, but now there's absolutely no chance at all. I expect an announcement soon from the Indian Navy about the Rafale M being selected as the winner of the Navy's carrier-born fighter procurement process. We also need to gradually weed ourselves off of other U.S. platforms we currently use, such as C-17, P-8, Apache, Chinook, et al. Also GE fighter engines; we need to look at EJ-200 and Snecma M88 engines to power the Tejas and other indigenous fighters down the line. Not safe to completely rely on the U.S. for the powerplant. Hopefully an indigenous engine such as the Kaveri comes along soon as well.

I think this $450 million package for paki F-16s is not for the money, the Americans are not going to get any money from the bankrupt pakis. It's more towards the Americans sticking their finger in our eyes for us not selecting their fighters. They will lose money on this package but for them it's worth it as they always used the pakis to keep India under check. The thing is, they could have done this paki package thing even if we had selected the F-18s. They might have just waited a bit longer until we signed the contracts and committed ourselves to the F-18. So it's better that it worked out this way.

The Americans and the pakis are too intertwined in their involvement with each other in all the dirty dealings of the so called global terrorism, and the myths of 9/11, OBL, Ayman al-Zawahiri, etc. If you really read and analyse the story line of all this terrorist stuff, it sounds pretty preposterous and ridiculous; this trumpeted story is just not believable. So as such, the Americans will not abandon the pakis that soon or easily. The pakis have too many beans to spill.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by vinod »

US develops counter states against their adversary. Ukraine against Russia, Pakistan against India and India against China. So, assistance to Pakistan is always going to be on the table.

My view is we should reply back in same token. They are very much focused on Russia now. So, india has to make sure that Russia as a challenge always exists.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India raises objection to Pakistan F-16 refit
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 878790.ece
12 Sept 2022
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Amit_G »

Luxtor wrote:
ramana wrote:Biden just gave $450M sustainment aid to Pak F-16s.
This means they don't have hope of F-21s for MRFA and most likely F-18s.
Well, true. Whether they had any chance at all before was up to a debate, but now there's absolutely no chance at all. I expect an announcement soon from the Indian Navy about the Rafale M being selected as the winner of the Navy's carrier-born fighter procurement process. We also need to gradually weed ourselves off of other U.S. platforms we currently use, such as C-17, P-8, Apache, Chinook, et al. Also GE fighter engines; we need to look at EJ-200 and Snecma M88 engines to power the Tejas and other indigenous fighters down the line. Not safe to completely rely on the U.S. for the powerplant. Hopefully an indigenous engine such as the Kaveri comes along soon as well.

I think this $450 million package for paki F-16s is not for the money, the Americans are not going to get any money from the bankrupt pakis. It's more towards the Americans sticking their finger in our eyes for us not selecting their fighters. They will lose money on this package but for them it's worth it as they always used the pakis to keep India under check. The thing is, they could have done this paki package thing even if we had selected the F-18s. They might have just waited a bit longer until we signed the contracts and committed ourselves to the F-18. So it's better that it worked out this way.

The Americans and the pakis are too intertwined in their involvement with each other in all the dirty dealings of the so called global terrorism, and the myths of 9/11, OBL, Ayman al-Zawahiri, etc. If you really read and analyse the story line of all this terrorist stuff, it sounds pretty preposterous and ridiculous; this trumpeted story is just not believable. So as such, the Americans will not abandon the pakis that soon or easily. The pakis have too many beans to spill.
We should not read too much into this. This is a quid-pro-quo for the Pakistani help in providing ammunition for the Ukraine war. In addition, this is a sale and not assistance. The relationship with US is going strong and such small things should be ignored. Remember we did not take sides in this Russia Ukraine war.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Amit_G wrote:
Luxtor wrote:

The Americans and the pakis are too intertwined in their involvement with each other in all the dirty dealings of the so called global terrorism, and the myths of 9/11, OBL, Ayman al-Zawahiri, etc. If you really read and analyse the story line of all this terrorist stuff, it sounds pretty preposterous and ridiculous; this trumpeted story is just not believable. So as such, the Americans will not abandon the pakis that soon or easily. The pakis have too many beans to spill.
We should not read too much into this. This is a quid-pro-quo for the Pakistani help in providing ammunition for the Ukraine war. In addition, this is a sale and not assistance. The relationship with US is going strong and such small things should be ignored. Remember we did not take sides in this Russia Ukraine war.

sale ? you must be joking :mrgreen: ., its the old time tested paki khan relationship .

It is a given that khan would be giving the latest versions of weapons including missiles .. they would keep this secret till the opportune moment. AIM 120 D s come to mind, along with their latest targeting pods to preserve "balance of power" along with "upgrades" to fight "terrorists" :rotfl:
Remember the F16(I) ?

also https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... dia-347673
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... -sj012ZGtw ---> Pakistan concerned as this year's 'No Money for Terror' conference of FATF will be held in India.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by bharathp »

which terrorrists need to be fought with F16s?
flip that question around,
who is being fought with the given f-16s?
even after clearly showing that the f-16s are being used on only one adversary, khan wants to keep the f-16s going to aid TSP in fighting this "terrorist"
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Something I noticed with FS Sibal Ji's excellent column regarding Khan's F-16 upgrade is the numbers, he says Fizzleya has 85.
I count F-16(daat)net as a pretty good open source site for data on the fleet and as per them, the delivered numbers are 58(+13 from Jordan)
And losses(=total write offs) are 11.
So number is 60.
Spread across sqn #s 5,9,11,19 and 29.
Am I correct or something is not adding up?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Bart S »

Well the risk for us is that Unkil might remove the embargo on Pakis purchasing used F16s from other Muslim countries, at least the Pakis are bragging that they will be allowed to do so since they have been allowed to refurbish their fleet.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Egypt has over 200 F16s doesn't it.

Older variants no doubt, but upgrade-able.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

MeshaVishwas wrote:Something I noticed with FS Sibal Ji's excellent column regarding Khan's F-16 upgrade is the numbers, he says Fizzleya has 85.
I count F-16(daat)net as a pretty good open source site for data on the fleet and as per them, the delivered numbers are 58(+13 from Jordan)
And losses(=total write offs) are 11.
So number is 60.
Spread across sqn #s 5,9,11,19 and 29.
Am I correct or something is not adding up?
There Fleet strength should be around 75, around 15 or so assorted Block 15(from various airforces)upgraded by Turkey were supplied to Pakis in the late 2000's. i.e Balance of power to make sure IAF does not have an upper hand.
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