Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

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Anshuman.Kumar
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Anshuman.Kumar »

A decent volley of Brahmos again (by mistake)would be good
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by rsingh »

Do you mean cobra launching Brahmos this time? You know there was this flood and a snake managed to take shelter behind that launch box......
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

I remember counting till 75 f16 a year ago.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

The US State Dept is absolutely correct: the f16s of PAF are used mainly during anti-terror campaigns. The anti-terror campaigns of India. As a way to mission kill any ops.

The F16s seem to be used primarily for:
1) doing advanced FLIR based ground surveillance of border areas against India, Afghanistan and Iran
2) A2A CAP when paki terrorists causes Indian body count to mount causing tensions to rise.

PAF stopped being a serious air-dominance force during war, even over their territory, a long while back (in the 90s) and is only a mission-kill force for IAF during peace

So the numbers they have in service (seem to be in the mid 60s or three plus sqdn) is sufficient to mission-kill India’s counter-terror ops. Until the bluff got called at Balakote. Even with low serviceability, they can get two squadrons up in the air. And that is a lot of planes during peacetime.

This is where American administrations continue to do a grave disservice to Indian and American public: selling AMRAAMs by Bush administration and now this servicing package by Biden administration. Keeping these planes in the air gives drunken dutch courage to the khhaki-ghazis who sent terrorists to India, puts IAF pilot in harms way and has caused deaths of many American servicemen during the afghan campaign by not doing the job these planes were supposed to do (keep taliban down but instead help them out by passing intel from the FLIRs).
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

hnair wrote:The US State Dept is absolutely correct: the f16s of PAF are used mainly during anti-terror campaigns. The anti-terror campaigns of India. As a way to mission kill any ops.

This is where American administrations continue to do a grave disservice to Indian and American public: selling AMRAAMs by Bush administration and now this servicing package by Biden administration. Keeping these planes in the air gives drunken dutch courage to the khhaki-ghazis who sent terrorists to India, puts IAF pilot in harms way and has caused deaths of many American servicemen during the afghan campaign by not doing the job these planes were supposed to do (keep taliban down but instead help them out by passing intel from the FLIRs).

something to think about is what if the pakis had AIM 120Ds instead of the C5s
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

kit wrote: something to think about is what if the pakis had AIM 120Ds instead of the C5s
Nothing to think about there. PAF fired five of the c5 miscalculating the opponent’s training and tactics. They would botch D series up too.

AMRAAM C vs D range comparisons is moot because an opponent like IAF is not deterred from a mission by that as we have seen. Number of airframes of PAF in the air during a peacetime incident is.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Go here to get a detailed breakdown of their F-16 fleet deliveries since Jan 1983 ---> https://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

Any F-16s lost by Pakistan in the course of battle against India, will be replaced by the US Govt. Happened in 2019 and will happen again. It is vital to LM's interests (and the US Govt) that the F-16 continues to maintain her mythical status. The 28 embargoed F-16 saga has haunted the PAF and the Pakistani people since the early 1990s. Folks from that era will remember what I am talking about. The F-16 is ingrained into the Pakistani psyche and nothing - not even JF-17 or J-10 - swells the Pakistani chest with pride as their F-16 fleet. This explains the furious cover up over their F-16 loss in Feb 2019. Loss of even a single F-16 (by an IAF fighter pilot) is near equivalent to loss for PAF as a whole. And loss for PAF = lynching by the Pakistani aam junta. A scenario that is best avoided by the PAF.

The $450 million fleet sustainment package for the F-16A/B models, makes ample sense for both Pakistan and the United States. These aircraft should have another 5 - 10 years of life left, post fleet upgradation. The 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52 models will serve for another 40 years. They were delivered around 2010. There is an option for another 18 more, which will be exercised in due course. To be quite honest, there will be a sale of the F-16 Block 70/72 variant to the PAF in the years ahead and their Block 50/52 models will also get the Block 70/72 upgrade. That is going to happen. The Block 70/72 will come, along with a batch of AIM-120C7/8s (among other weaponry) as they already have the AIM-120C5. America will not sell the F-35 to Pakistan, because of China. And thus the next best route is the Block 70/72.

For the US, there is no other option. The F-16 is America's conduit link to the Pakistan military, which is the real ruler in that state. To not upgrade the PAF F-16s would be to sever that link between the two nations. And as much as the US Administration hates Pakistan for their double standard, they have to sustain Pakistan (for America's own self interest). All this talk of maintaining regional parity in South Asia is cow dung sprinkled with gold dust. For Pakistan, it is a win-win situation. They get to sustain their early model F-16A/Bs for the next decade and get new build F-16s to replace those older model F-16s, when they will retire in the next decade. This gives Pakistan the minimum deterrence value that they feel they need against India, especially with the Rafale fleet.

For India and the Indian Air Force, fleet sustainment of their older model F-16s and even new build F-16s is not the issue. Those are minor quibbles compared to the real issue. The PAF F-16 represents Pakistan's air delivery method for delivering nuclear weapons. Their only other platform they have to deliver a nuclear warhead are their ballistic missiles. With the Biden Administration's decision to sustain their F-16 fleet, they are tacitly allowing Pakistan to maintain that delivery method vis-à-vis India. This wink-wink scenario by the Biden Administration, is dangerous for not just India, but for the entire global community. But then again, America has never factored that into any of her equations.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:something to think about is what if the pakis had AIM 120Ds instead of the C5s
America will not sell the D variant to just any country out there.

Very few countries - outside of the US - operate the D variant and they are all Western nations.

Basically all out American poodles who will toe America's line.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... kyhwv55Y1w ---> Report: Majority of Pakistan Navy's China-made Z-9C ASW helicopters grounded due to severe maintenance problems involving rotors and distribution valves.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/pa ... 95414dd274

Paki Helicopter crashes in Baluchistan. 6 killed, including 2 Majors and 3 SSG commandos. No idea if it was routine crash or it was brought down by insurgents in Baluchistan. The flight was near Harnai.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

"You're not fooling anybody..."Jaishankar responds to US F-16 package for Pakistan
https://aninews.in/news/world/us/youre- ... 926080829/
26 Sept 2022
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »


Seems like the uniformed terrorists are 400% sure that a Mach 3 projectile was guided using waypoint nav, snaking through a dozen or so civilian jets and hitting the mushraph of Pindi.
No accident wonlee.
:rotfl:

"(li)quid pro quo +"
Latin for soil oneself and then surrender
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

What would be the availability of PAF fleet?

<guesstimate alert>

JF17 : 30-40% (Reported ~50% are grounded, that would 50% at 70% availability = ~35%?)
F16 : 60-70% - (Shud increase to 75%+ with fleet sustainment from US)
Mirage 3/5: 50%+ of the available fleet (MRF is comprehensive and should be doing a great job of keeping the fleet flying)
F7PG: 40% ( A rehashed chinese mig-21 cannot be available more than the original russian mig21)

</guesstimate alert>
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/sreemoytalukdar/sta ... AwsD-IYJow ---> A ridiculous false equivalence is being made between India's buying of Russian oil for energy security and America's arming of Pakistan with F-16s. Ned Price is arguing that F-16s to Pak will foster "constructive" relations with India. Ok then.

Ties with India, Pakistan independent of each other: US Spokesman Ned Price
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 297_1.html
27 Sept 2022
A day after EAM S Jaishankar raised questions over the "merits" of the US-Pakistan ties, the US State Department said it does not view ties with Islamabad and New Delhi in relation to one another.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Couple of tweets from this link ---> https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09IS ... 586_a.html

Should be read in its entirety IMVHO. I am really glad that India did not bite at the F-16 Block 70/72 offer during the SE contest a few years back. I still remember the forum members eagerly pushing for that deal. The level of myopia from those BRFites is amazing. I really hope we do not end up with a US fighter in the MRFA and MRCBF contests either.

https://twitter.com/anir1uph/status/157 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> US State Dept, 2009 March 18: "F-16 aircraft, armed with AMRAAMS, essentially buy time to delay Pakistan considering the nuclear option in a conflict with India. Given India's overwhelming military superiority, this would only be a few days, but..."

https://twitter.com/anir1uph/status/157 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> US State Dept, 2008 April 24: "An enhanced F-16 program also has deterrence value by giving Pakistan time and space to employ a conventional, rather than nuclear, reaction in the event of a future conflict with India."

https://twitter.com/anir1uph/status/157 ... AwsD-IYJow ---> US State Dept, 2009 January 28: "The AMRAAMS are not counter-insurgency related but the GOP insists on acquiring the beyond visual range capacity this technology allows."
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The same argument above, will be used by the US State Department to sell additional F-16s to the PAF in the future.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Dilbu »

NEW ATR-77 PLANE INDUCTED TO PAKISTAN NAVY FLEET
Karachi: A new ATR-77 plane, equipped with the latest tools and weaponry, has been added to the Pakistan Navy fleet on Thursday, ARY News reported.

According to the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), the induction ceremony of the AR 77 plane was held in Karachi. Chairman Joint Chief of Staff Committee General Nadeem Raza was the chief guest of the ceremony.

ISPR told that the new ATR-77 plane is equipped with the latest technology and weaponry which would add to the operational capabilities of the Pakistan Navy.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kancha »

Rakesh wrote:The same argument above, will be used by the US State Department to sell additional F-16s to the PAF in the future.
Indeed.
Did a short twitter thread about 4.5 years ago on the eventual F-16 sale, in the aftermath of the US supplying Javelin Missiles to Pakistan.

Link
F-16 Sale: Anti-Pak Sentiment Grows in US Congress http://thewire.in/2016/05/03/anti-pakis ... ess-33282/ via @thewire_in

I call bullshit.
WILL be delivered.
Subsidised.
History bears witness to the fact that no gun has been made yet, that can fire in only one direction. Least of all American ones.
JMTs
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

MeshaVishwas ji, I watched the video posted. These uniformed terrorists talk with 400% surety about exotic topics when their nation is a total basket case. Such delusion. I can't imagine how hollow their day to day conversations with nanga unwashed abduls would be.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

bala wrote:MeshaVishwas ji, I watched the video posted. These uniformed terrorists talk with 400% surety about exotic topics when their nation is a total basket case. Such delusion. I can't imagine how hollow their day to day conversations with nanga unwashed abduls would be.
+1
There is a saying in Kannada that describes the land of pure terror to a T.
"ಮೂರೂ ಬಿಟ್ಟವರು ಊರಿಗೆ ದೊಡ್ಡವರು"
Pakis are utterly shameless creatures.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

bala wrote:MeshaVishwas ji, I watched the video posted. These uniformed terrorists talk with 400% surety about exotic topics when their nation is a total basket case. Such delusion. I can't imagine how hollow their day to day conversations with nanga unwashed abduls would be.
i had the (mis)fortune to talk to a couple of pakis abroad., entitled and weird with the "lahori" logic for lack of better term, told them their problem is their military before finding one was connected to a paki general :lol:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/sreemoytalukdar/sta ... AwsD-IYJow ---> A ridiculous false equivalence is being made between India's buying of Russian oil for energy security and America's arming of Pakistan with F-16s. Ned Price is arguing that F-16s to Pak will foster "constructive" relations with India. Ok then.
A day after EAM S Jaishankar raised questions over the "merits" of the US-Pakistan ties, the US State Department said it does not view ties with Islamabad and New Delhi in relation to one another.
If there are arms to be sold , America will., any trashy / no logic works., why because they are powellfull
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/pa ... 2ac1132eec

The Pakistanis have bought two old mine hunter vessels from Netherlands. Similar to the French Eridan class that they already operate. Brings the number of mine hunter vessels in paki navy to 5. For reference, Bulgaria bought similar old ships from the Dutch at about $2 million each in 2019.

What the paki navy has been able to do with very meagre resources over the past decade is impressive. The above ships might be old, but from the report, the dutch have not been using them since 2011 and there should be some life left in them.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by titash »

mody wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/pa ... 2ac1132eec

The Pakistanis have bought two old mine hunter vessels from Netherlands. Similar to the French Eridan class that they already operate. Brings the number of mine hunter vessels in paki navy to 5. For reference, Bulgaria bought similar old ships from the Dutch at about $2 million each in 2019.

What the paki navy has been able to do with very meagre resources over the past decade is impressive. The above ships might be old, but from the report, the dutch have not been using them since 2011 and there should be some life left in them.
Yes - but buying second hand ships and aircraft comes with a huge penalty. Performance is degraded and Reliability is questionable. Are the spare parts available in quantity and at affordable costs to put those vessels to sea with some regularity? What is the MTBF of all the old systems onboard? What is the expected Availability of these boats in terms of days at sea?

Given Pakistan's poor industrial base, low forex reserves, and tier III engineering chops, how many days at sea can jugaad sustain before they start eating into "war wastage spares"?

My (newer) car would run well on a daily basis. My old (college) car that I kept around for sentimental reasons was only good for 2-3 km around my house and would give me trouble with electrical/mechanical failures on a daily basis...passing safety inspections was a nightmare. Ditto for 30 year old minesweepers

It's not like the Pakis are better at squeezing performance and reliability out of old equipment than the rest of the world. Even if they are, its highly doubtful they'll exceed the performance of newer more modern opposition
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Fallibilist1/status ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> This is true. No Army Chief in history has killed as many locusts as General Bajwa. The most lethal locust terminator. Huge national service.

Image
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Ahead of new army chief appointment, Pak Army GHQ to buy new fleet (30+) of armoured BMW 7 series for 4 star/3 star Generals.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Lisa »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/Fallibilist1/status ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> This is true. No Army Chief in history has killed as many locusts as General Bajwa. The most lethal locust terminator. Huge national service.
Ji, how to tell difference between locusts from locals during eradication program? Both have almost identical destructive characteristics on any environment they are exposed to.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

So true Lisa :lol:
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by RCase »

titash wrote:
mody wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/pa ... 2ac1132eec

The Pakistanis have bought two old mine hunter vessels from Netherlands. Similar to the French Eridan class that they already operate. Brings the number of mine hunter vessels in paki navy to 5. For reference, Bulgaria bought similar old ships from the Dutch at about $2 million each in 2019.
....
Yes - but buying second hand ships and aircraft comes with a huge penalty. Performance is degraded and Reliability is questionable. Are the spare parts available in quantity and at affordable costs to put those vessels to sea with some regularity? What is the MTBF of all the old systems onboard? What is the expected Availability of these boats in terms of days at sea?
The Bakis have no qualms about buying junk that gets written off, as long as there is an opportunity to line their personal pockets. While you may be fretting about MTBF and availability of spares etc., the jernails think of MTBF as 'Moolah To Be Funneled' into their personal accounts, just like the rest of the kleptocracy of politicians, judges and bureaucrats.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by RCase »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/Fallibilist1/status ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> This is true. No Army Chief in history has killed as many locusts as General Bajwa. The most lethal locust terminator. Huge national service.
I am 400% sure that Bajwa deserves the medal "Nishan-e-Tiddi' for the 'War on Locusts'. No other country in the world has lost so much to locusts. The world needs to pay Pakistan for waging a war on locusts.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

So Bajwa is the real thees mar khan
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

titash wrote:
mody wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/pa ... 2ac1132eec

The Pakistanis have bought two old mine hunter vessels from Netherlands. Similar to the French Eridan class that they already operate. Brings the number of mine hunter vessels in paki navy to 5. For reference, Bulgaria bought similar old ships from the Dutch at about $2 million each in 2019.

What the paki navy has been able to do with very meagre resources over the past decade is impressive. The above ships might be old, but from the report, the dutch have not been using them since 2011 and there should be some life left in them.
Yes - but buying second hand ships and aircraft comes with a huge penalty. Performance is degraded and Reliability is questionable. Are the spare parts available in quantity and at affordable costs to put those vessels to sea with some regularity? What is the MTBF of all the old systems onboard? What is the expected Availability of these boats in terms of days at sea?

Given Pakistan's poor industrial base, low forex reserves, and tier III engineering chops, how many days at sea can jugaad sustain before they start eating into "war wastage spares"?

My (newer) car would run well on a daily basis. My old (college) car that I kept around for sentimental reasons was only good for 2-3 km around my house and would give me trouble with electrical/mechanical failures on a daily basis...passing safety inspections was a nightmare. Ditto for 30 year old minesweepers

It's not like the Pakis are better at squeezing performance and reliability out of old equipment than the rest of the world. Even if they are, its highly doubtful they'll exceed the performance of newer more modern opposition
Poor performing/old hardware cannot be better than zero hardware. Pak Navy is better off with 2 old MCMVs compared to Indian Navy.

IN's oldest ship in service is INS Jalashwa - over 50 years old. When purchased her helicopter fleet was in poor material shape. The ship is still in service and our only LPD. Same can be said for original Vikrant and Viraat.

Full marks to PN for maximizing their budget.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Brad Goodman »

I agree you cannot just refuse everything till it meets your expectations. NLCA may not be a great fit for Vikrant but if Navy has positioned them in Andaman or used in Goa it would have helped train pilots, add more flying hours, refine tactics and still play important roles in combat. You place them near Jamnagar or Okha and they can act like aircraft carriers to blockade Karachi, but we cannot think like that we will ask for moon and cry when we are not offered it.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Well in this case, comparing IN and PN mine hunter or mine counter measure vessels, would give unflattering results.
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Well the reason the PN has bought the mine sweepers is because of the floods.

Because the PA shalwar periodically browns due to IA and IAF the PN is also, in keeping with theme, a brown water navy. In this case they are worried that there may be mines in the flood waters which is causing more brownness in the nether regions!!!
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ma ... c74731ac45

And Bajwa ensures that he remains in charge well after he officially retires.

12 Maj. Gen rank officers promoted to Lt. Gen in a single move. 3 vacancies were pending from 2021. Another one from July and 5 more from end of September. 1 Lt. Gen was killled in Baluchistan and 2 more promoted in anticipation of current Lt. Gen rank officers taking over from Bajwa himself and their CDS.

"It is unusual to see so many people promoted to the position of lieutenant general at once. Although these elevations are typically supposed to be done on the basis of vacancies, the promotions in the Army had been overdue for about a year, reported Dawn.

The seats vacated by the retirement of three lieutenant generals in the middle of October 2021, one in July of this year, and five at the end of September would be filled by the 12 newly promoted generals. Lt Gen Majid Ehsan, the former IG Arms, Lt Gen Amir Abbasi, the former QMG, and Lt Gen Hamooduz Zaman Khan, the former Commander of Army Air Defence Command, were among those who had retired a year earlier."

"The 12 promoted officers would make up a sizable portion of the team that the new chief would take over in November, making the most recent promotions one of Gen. Bajwa's most important decisions made prior to his retirement. The posting of the promoted officers, which GHQ would soon complete, would now be the focus of all attention. A number of significant posts are presently open.

Immediately following his appointment in 2016, Gen. Bajwa had the chance to promote seven major generals, which aided in the formation of his own team. Due to the elevation of two officers to four star ranks and the resignation of four other officers after being replaced, the seven slots had at that time become vacant."
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Is there a chance some Paki troops will be sent to fight for Ukra-een?
Sudden showering of attention from US and NATO makes me think there is something the jernails have agreed to do in return.
Adding more bodies to AFU is a critical need right now, and US is desperate to do anything.
So why can't one munna fight for another?
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Biden just gave $450M sustainment aid to Pak F-16s.
This means they don't have hope of F-21s for MRFA and most likely F-18s.
:lol: After giving a $450 million fleet sustainment package for the PAF's F-16s, Biden has the gall to state that Pakistan is dangerous.

Pakistan ‘one of the most dangerous nations’, Joe Biden says, then explains why
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 3-amp.html
15 Oct 2022
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Biden just gave $450M sustainment aid to Pak F-16s.
This means they don't have hope of F-21s for MRFA and most likely F-18s.
:lol: After giving a $450 million fleet sustainment package for the PAF's F-16s, Biden has the gall to state that Pakistan is dangerous.

Pakistan ‘one of the most dangerous nations’, Joe Biden says, then explains why
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 3-amp.html
15 Oct 2022
:lol: It is a good day when you have to contradict the head of your own government.

https://twitter.com/DerekJGrossman/stat ... m64gCph55w ---> HUGE walk-back today by State Dept of Biden’s previous statement of concern over Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program: “The United States is confident of Pakistan's commitment and its ability to secure its nuclear assets.”

"Confident Of Pak's Ability To Secure Its Nukes": US After Biden's Remark
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/confide ... rk-3440456
18 Oct 2022
AkshaySG
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

It's only a walkback if you think of it as separate from Biden's words and not part of their SOP

1. A few statements and decisions being pro Pak from Senior officials to keep Pak happy and extract promises from their jernails

2. India gets riled up, So a few praises for India and a few statements by other senior officials to call Pak "dangerous" or keep them on FATF list etc etc

3. India calms down and normal service is restored...
The US MIC gets what it what's, The US State Dept gets what it wants and they maintain the Status Quo
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