Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

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ArjunPandit
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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Feb 2021 22:21

Vips wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:a lot has been said about china not operating JF17. I will not count too much on it simply because china already has a lot legacy light/low end fighters.


All those legacy light and low end fighters powered with chinese reverse engineered engines are very old compared to the modern JF17 equipped with a relatively more reliable Russian engine. Certainly the chinese would have replaced those dinosaur aged fighters. The fact that they did not reveals a lot about the capabilities of the JF (Junk Fighter) :mrgreen:

they added J10s(450+), J11s (250+) and J16s (100+) in place of vintage J7s/J8s (1500). remaining J7/J8s have either been retired or replaced/upgraded.

My points are
1. China not buying Jf17 doesnt necessarily guarantee it is junk. Although the dice is loaded in your favor
2. Even this junk could cause us some damage. It files it can shoot, it can cause some damage. Even a broken clock is right twice. Given paki tendencies It can be used as a kamikaze.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 06 Feb 2021 03:02

The Pakis for about 20 years now have given up on being able to fight a real war. What they are geared to and sometimes pull off, is fighting a propaganda war. A good e.g is Feb 27th. By all rational parameters they failed miserably, yet met their objectives which was to create a propaganda 'victory' and convince their awam that they are still capable and deserve to be sucking the blood out of their bhooka nanga population.

My points being, a> while we might handily beat them in an actual war, they are probably planning for and capable of that propaganda stunt in a short bout of action that they can tom-tom in their ISPR-lifafa driven media and social media trolling and b> that we need to deny them those propaganda wins as well.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 06 Feb 2021 07:32

Op Swift Distort was a very good operation straight from PAF playbook, i.e. surprise and overwhelm the enemy on Day-1 with a lot of mass, and then retreat into defence mode and tackle IAF on home ground.

PAF to its credit was able to exhibit Large Force Engagement tactics and use of force multipliers. They also threw all types in the inventory, except for F-7PG (hat tip aditya_v).

JF-17 and Mirage upgrades deliver a reasonably cheap and capable air force, somewhat equivalent to our own MiG-21 Bison fleet. JF-17s are new builds and (presumably) locally supported so that's an advantage.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby titash » 06 Feb 2021 07:55

It would be a mistake to underestimate the PAF and the JF-17. The aircraft uses tried and tested technologies, and is operational in large numbers. Simple capability upgrades will proliferate to a very large fleet and provide step function improvements in the PAF's capabilities.

The PAF has a very significant number of AEW/AWACs in hand (and on order). These will more than make up for the JF-17's smaller/cheaper onboard radars. The engine RD-93 is powerful, reliable, and well understood, even if it's high maintenance. The Chinese have a large variety of AAM and Air-to-Surface weaponry in existence and in development. At some point (just like our programs) these products will get the job done.

Also, like the IAF, the PAF has drawn its conclusions from Feb 2019's sparring. Their tactics will evolve just like ours. I think overall, the JF-17 has been a very smart bet by the PAF

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby venkat_kv » 06 Feb 2021 08:35

not sure if it goes in this thread or the other thread for the pakis.
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/i ... 2021-02-04

it seems Iranian Revolutionary guards have done Surgical strike on Pakis to free a couple of their soldiers held by "rebels" in Baluchistan province. It was done on Feb2nd and the news seems to have come out on the 4th or 5th of Feb.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 07 Feb 2021 18:58


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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2021 19:53

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 51746?s=20 ---> Report: German reluctance to supply diesel-electric engines for Chinese made submarine to Pakistan has delayed Pak's Hangor class submarine program. Pakistan Navy wants German made engines as the Chinese alternatives are very noisy and of low quality and reliability.

https://twitter.com/Bhargav65537534/sta ... 48257?s=20 ---> The nation is itself is submerging, they are worried about their submarines.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Feb 2021 20:14

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 51746?s=20 ---> Report: German reluctance to supply diesel-electric engines for Chinese made submarine to Pakistan has delayed Pak's Hangor class submarine program. Pakistan Navy wants German made engines as the Chinese alternatives are very noisy and of low quality and reliability.

https://twitter.com/Bhargav65537534/sta ... 48257?s=20 ---> The nation is itself is submerging, they are worried about their submarines.

the admirals need some place to hide.... no? reminds me of nazis who went to argentina to hide

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 08 Feb 2021 01:58

China's PLA provides COVID-19 vaccines to Pakistan Army.

Hain ji, why a separate batch to the pakjabis distinct from the earlier supplies meant for the aam abduls and ayeshas?
(Chinese standard pure maal only for the military) :lol:

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rohit_K » 13 Feb 2021 00:30

4 soldiers martyred after terrorists attack army check post in South Waziristan: ISPR
https://thekashmirwalla.com/2021/02/pak ... an-attack/

Four soldiers were martyred after terrorist's opened fire on a security forces post in Makeen, South Waziristan, late Thursday night, the military's media affairs wing said on Friday.

In a statement, the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said that troops responded promptly and killed four terrorists. "During the exchange of fire, four soldiers embraced shahadat," the statement added. The martyred officials were identified as Lance Naik Imran Ali, Sepoy Atif Jahangir, Sepoy Aneesur Rehman and Sepoy Aziz. According to the ISPR, security forces observed presence of terrorists in a compound in Mir Ali. As soon as the troops cordoned off the area, terrorists opened fire. During the intense exchange of fire, four terrorists were killed. The ISPR said that these terrorists were involved in kidnapping for ransom, extortion, raids on security forces and IED explosions.

During the conduct of the operation, Naib Subedar Amin Ullah, 42, a resident of Chitral, and sepoy Sher Zamin, 24, a resident of Landi Kotal, embraced martyrdom. Four other soldiers were injured, the ISPR said.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2021 22:07

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 85280?s=20 ---> Despite over 13 years of efforts (since Jan 2008), Pakistan Army has failed to get a replacement for it's aging and obsolete G3 battle rifles & Type 56-1 ARs. Efforts to acquire a Czeck or Polish rifle have also fallen through.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2021 22:16

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 20417?s=20 ---> Report: Newer batches of Pakistan Army's Babur 1/1A cruise missiles have a 30% Lower range than previous batches, as the newer batches uses Chinese turbojet engines with lower efficiency instead of using the more efficient Ukrainian turbojets used in previous batches.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 00224?s=20 ---> It is not yet clear why Pakistan had to change engines but one possible explanation is US does not want Ukraine to supply engines for China linked missile programs. Babur is based on Chinese HN-1B which itself based on Ukraine's Korshun with some tech derived from crashed Tomahawk.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2021 07:52

Interesting twitter thread...

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 99875?s=20 --->

1) Let me tell you a true story about Pakistani desire for validation from India. Your rants and constant screaming are part of that DNA. This was in January 2012. I was to speak in the only track II organised by an American think-tank I attended with Pakistanis in Dubai.

2) In the session on what role can the two militaries play in ensuring CBMs between India and Pakistan, I started my presentation after two speakers from India and two from Pakistan had already spoken. Another Pakistani speaker was to make his remarks after me.

3) Apart from tracing the history of drawing up CFL and LoC in which the militaries had also played a part, I pointed out that the Indian military has now started reorienting itself to look at China as its main adversary and the challenges posed by its rise.

4) I continued: "The Indian military knows it can handle Pakistan as it had done in 1965, 1971 (breaking up Pakistan) and in Kargil and treats Pakistan as a monkey on its back: a nuisance that can be dealt with anytime & therefore its best to prepare for the China challenge."

5) The moment I made this remark, a recently retired brigadier of the Pak Army who had spoken before me angrily rose from his chair & said: 'Wait, we are your enemy No. 1, not China.' Translation: how can you ignore us? Our army's entire existence is premised on enmity with India!

6) As is evident in the past six years at least, India ignoring Pakistan is something people like you have not been able to digest hence all the ranting on my timeline. India knows how to deal with its adversaries, big or small. Its the Pakistani establishment that feels left out.

7) India's decade plus reorientation in meeting the China challenge has paid off as is evident in the standoff in Eastern Ladakh and the current disengagement. Despite attempts at massive military coercion, China had to withdraw empty handed.

8] Of course the Indian establishment knows this is not the end of the story. There will be attempts by China to open newer fronts. But that's for later. As for Pakstan, it can ride on China's shoulders and keep screaming for attention from India. Over and out.

9) One correction. The Track II was in January 2013, NOT 2012.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby D.Mahesh » 18 Feb 2021 08:04

titash wrote:It would be a mistake to underestimate...

The PAF has a very significant number of AEW/AWACs..The engine RD-93... The Chinese have a large variety of ...will get the job done.

Also, like the IAF, the PAF has...


It's always a mistake to underestimate anything anyone. Indian MIL never does.
Indian inventory of everything is increasing, and like heck. This is not a game the PAF can match even by ratios.
Only one MIL knows Russian engines better than the Russians themselves - no one has put these beasts thru their paces like the Indian MIL has.
The PAF was found severely wanting during Swift_Retreat/Swift_Rout. For one thing PAF's fleet is 60% serviceability and 40% availability. Indian Defence Budget > Pak's Total Budget.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Feb 2021 08:20

The we produce in our MIL, we can slowly towards getting dominance over Pakistan, imports just give defense keys to foreign countries who will contain us. But there is well entrenched lobby within the country which would like us to be dependent on imports.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby D.Mahesh » 22 Feb 2021 05:01

TSP MIL is primarily a politico-Feudal force ensuring the perpetuation of a new fundamentalist elite. With the TSP MIL running a vast variety of businesses, the industrial sector too is now run by it. In military terms its forces are entirely defensive in nature. There is realistic offensive doctrine possible for the shape TSP is in today.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Prithwiraj » 25 Feb 2021 05:38

Apparently the spyware hardware and other important details used on Saab Erieye platform (used by PAF among other air forces) has been compromised through hacking of Bombardier systems and released on Dark Web

Link https://warisboring.com/bombardier-has- ... -dark-web/

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2021 08:29

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 08486?s=20 ---> Sri Lanka continues to refuse Pakistan's offer to purchase Chinese designed JF-17 fighter jets from PAC.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 26 Feb 2021 01:13

50 Years of Mirage in Pakistan Air Force | PAF Documentary


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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 26 Feb 2021 01:57

HOW AMERICA’S EXPERIENCE WITH PAKISTAN CAN HELP IT DEAL WITH TURKEY
https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/how-a ... th-turkey/
25 Aug 2020

The U.S. decision to deliver advanced versions of the F-16 as well as targeting and electronic warfare equipment to Pakistan did not come without strings. And this is where the Pakistan model may hold the key to resolving the impasse over Turkey and the F-35. When it approved the sale of advanced F-16s to Pakistan and the upgrade of older models, the United States also insisted on an unprecedented level of oversight of the program. In order to protect the technology it was exporting, Washington required Islamabad to accept and pay for the deployment of a U.S. technical security team at the Shahbaz and Mushaf air force bases — the two locations where the advanced F-16s were to be deployed.

One of the authors of this article served in the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan at the time and was involved in this program, making several visits to Pakistani F-16 bases to ensure the required security upgrades were completed before the aircraft were deployed there. Each technical security team is made up of four to five U.S. Air Force personnel and some 30 contractors who keep a round-the-clock watch on Pakistan’s advanced F-16s. In total, Pakistan has around 85 F-16s, 66 of which are older Block 15 aircraft and 19 of which are the more modern Block 52. Most of the Block 15 aircraft have received the mid-life upgrade, meaning they are also subject to technical security team monitoring. The mission of the teams is to ensure that the Pakistan Air Force uses its F-16s as intended, does not modify them or the weapons they carry, and does not share the technology with unauthorized parties. In Pakistan’s case, the latter issue is especially salient, because the air force also flies the JF-17 fighter, which it jointly manufactures with China. On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located.

Despite its behavior in other areas, Pakistan has been a steady partner in its F-16 program. The Pakistan Air Force uses its F-16s extensively to attack militants in its tribal areas and shares cockpit footage of these operations with the United States (which one of the authors was able to view while stationed in Pakistan). The presence of technical security teams allows the United States to monitor how Pakistan uses these jets, since their weapons load is configured differently for air-to-ground and air-to-air operations. Of course, in a national emergency, even continuous monitoring can’t prevent the Pakistan Air Force from using its F-16s in ways the United States doesn’t like. For example, in February 2019 India claimed a Pakistani F-16 shot down one of its jets in a skirmish over the border between the two. Pakistan denies this, claiming a Pakistan Air Force JF-17 downed the Indian plane. The U.S. State Department has expressed concern about the incident, but did not directly accuse Pakistan of using its F-16s against India. Instead, it admonished Islamabad for moving some of its F-16s to bases not approved by the United States, indicating that both sides would prefer to let the issue rest. This incident highlights a limitation on all U.S. oversight of military equipment it sells to foreign partners, not just Pakistan. When national survival appears to be at stake, U.S. partners will not be deterred by admonitions to use weapons only for certain missions or against certain threats. This needs to be considered early in the process, before an export license is issued.

Since the lifting of U.S. sanctions on Pakistan after 9/11, the United States and Pakistan have jointly invested some $3 billion in the F-16 program, and despite the irritants elsewhere in the bilateral relationship, cooperation between the two air forces remains robust. Pakistan also cooperates with countries that fly the F-16, including Italy, Jordan, and Turkey. It accepts the intrusive inspection regime of the technical security teams without complaint, and to this point the teams have not registered major violations of the technology security regime they have put in place. Indeed, in the experience of one of the authors, the technical security teams have been a confidence-builder and a shock-absorber in what is otherwise an unstable bilateral relationship. At least in part because of the personal relationships formed between American team members and Pakistan Air Force officers, the U.S. military contingent in the embassy has a better relationship with the Pakistan Air Force than the army or navy. The extensive cooperation between the Turkish and Pakistani air forces — including periodic exercises and the mid-life upgrades of Pakistani F-16s — means that Turkey is familiar with technical security teams and their role in protecting advanced U.S. technology.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2021 02:54

This means the US of course knew about the Viper shoot-down.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 26 Feb 2021 03:20

100% :mrgreen:

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 26 Feb 2021 03:57

Amazing the level of intrusion Pak allows US, just to have those F16. Still hoping for F16V! Pak will do it's utmost, not to be in good books of the US and prevent us from allying with US.

24/7 surveillance would mean, any attack by us on Pak bases might involve US service men causalities!

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Feb 2021 12:13

Karan M wrote:This means the US of course knew about the Viper shoot-down.


Yes but admitting it means the 12-15 F-16's US has been to European partners USD 100 million a jet to replace their Mig-21 fleet will put all these Governments open to questioning. I think for 2nd anniversary of Balakot and Swift retreat time the truth is put out.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 27 Feb 2021 15:20

PAF will be on their best behaviour with the US. There are too many F-16s flying around, many of which will retire over the next 5-6 years.
PAF would love to get their hands on ex-USAF or other F-16s, even if they are 30+ year old airframes. The USAF planes would be heavily used.
But PAF still finds them better them the Bandar. Also, PAF would also love to get their hands on more Aim-9M/L, Aim-120 C5 and hope for C7 and Paveway-II LGB kits. These are superior to the PL-5, SD-10 whatever chinese LGB that the JF-17 thunder can use.

India would hope that at the most the PAF can only get very old airframes from the US, without the latest AESA radars and armaments restricted to Aim-9M/L and Aim-120C5. No C7 or D variant of the AMRAAM and not Aim-9X.

The pakis have been using 40 year old Mirage-III/V airframes and more F-16s they would be willing to spy on their own mother if required.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 27 Feb 2021 16:35

Once Astra 2 starts testing, Pak will ask for C7/C8 using the "no change of strategic balance" argument. Most probably it will get it as well.

I won't be surprised, if they are already asking for it, given that Meteor is now available to us. The only way out for us is to double down on investments in BVR and long range targeting.

Astra 2, SFDR, dual mode seekers, Astra IR, hypersonic BVR, laser counter measures etc. Whatever it takes. Since we are not good at increasing numbers, atleast get the BVR and anti-BVR right.

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Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 01 Mar 2021 18:21

Cross posted by someone on Paki deaf and dumb forum.

Latest article on PAC Kamra from March 2021. Some additional details about Block III and AZM
-------------------

Pride of Pakistan - by Alan Warnes, Air International March 2021

In common with production facilities all over the world, Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) initially suffered from the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic. And not least because it faced a very specific challenge, continuing to look after the entire Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet at the same time as building a new aircraft type.

Ensuring that the maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) facility could carry on with its vital work fell on the shoulders of Air Marshal Syed Noman Ali, who became PAC chairman in early January 2020, just as COVID-19 was gathering pace. The former F-16 Viper pilot told AIR International recently: “Within a few weeks of arriving here I had to come up with solutions to ensure the health and safety of the 15,000 workers, while serving the many needs of the PAF. It was quite a job!”

Maintaining the schedule
Production of the new JF-17 Thunder fighter at the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) was initially affected, but after a few weeks, the workforce was housed on the facility enabling personnel to work longer shifts. It took AM Noman and his team about three months to find a new way of working around the coronavirus limitations.

PAC Kamra is the brainchild of the PAF and an extension of the PAF. That’s why it is run by an air marshal, and 40% of the 15,000-strong workforce is military. As well as the AMF, there are three other major facilities within PAC: the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF), the Aircraft Rebuild Factory (ARF), and the Avionics Production Factory (APF) with a dedicated research and development department running alongside it.

We asked AM Noman about the PAC’s role in the PAF: “We have four main tasks: the production of the JF-17 Thunder to supplement the fleet and replace obsolete aircraft – whether it be Mirages or Chinese aircraft; life cycle support – all the MROs established here are overhauling aircraft and components then returning them back into service; rectifying components at D Level; and manufacturing harnesses, material components not just limited to aircraft but also for ground-based air defence sensors.”

AM Noman was keen to emphasize the vital role played by the often overlooked design and development section: “It is to assist and supplement, as well as digitalize, design or prototype systems. We determine whether they are feasible, cost effective and whether serial production is worthwhile for the PAF. After prognosis, continuation of the project is discussed, whether we should continue or keep it at prototype [stage]. We are also collaborating in artificial intelligence (AI) with the PAF and its departments, to fuse AI into various projects and to understand what extent we need to capitalize that capability to make it a better product.”

Pakistan’s fifth-gen fighter

At the moment the design and development department is working on a fifth-generation fighter, known as Azm. The project is being conceptualised and preliminary designs are ongoing. “There will come a time when we will review it for its cost effectiveness, and what capabilities can be fused into the project, it will have to be something essential for a next-gen fighter,” he said.

Once Azm is past the preliminary design stage, detailed design will follow before prototyping the initial concept and working towards the final concept. “It will be improved over the three phases with each lasting around two years. In each phase the aircraft could evolve, even its future operating capability (FOC) could see improvements,” he added.

The PAF anticipates that the fifth generation fighter will fly in 2028, but as the PAC chairman explained: “If a partner joins us with new expertise, then that date might alter. We are working in a very focused manner and engaging with international partners to see what they can offer.”


Obviously, the PAC and PAF has learnt a lot from developing and then building the Sino-Pak JF-17 Thunder with the Chinese, and AVIC (Aviation Industry in China) in particular. Fourteen years ago, the PAF hadn’t even started to build fighters. “It’s been a valuable experience, particularly for attracting people here that have diverse [knowledge] within various specialties – design, structures, avionics, integration. We have built over 100 JF-17s that are operationally employed today,” he said.

Thunders rolling
On December 30, 2020, the chairman handed over 14 dual-seat JF-17B Thunders built at the AMF, although he was at pains to acknowledge the contribution of all the factories.

PAC Kamra is responsible for building 58% of the single-seat JF-17s, while AVIC contributes the remaining 42%, but with the extra cockpit in the JF-17B and smaller fuel tank was PAC Kamra now contributing less to the build? “No, we are making them as per the original plan, but at times like the first three months of COVID-19 we had to rely on our Chinese partners to do more. We prefer to meet our deadlines than meeting our percentage output,” he stated.

Training and evaluation
Unlike the single-seat JF-17s, the dualseater has fuel in both wings and in the vertical tail, all of which are made at PAC Kamra under the 58% agreement. “They are not in fuel bladders but carried as integral fuel tanks like on the F-16. Each wing houses 550Ib and the vertical tail, 210lb, which together with the internal fuel load totals of 4,910Ib. Including the three external fuel tanks, the aircraft can carry a 10,000Ib fuel load.”


All 26 JF-17Bs have now been built and handed over to the PAF. The plan is to use them to fulfil training needs with the operational conversion unit (18 Sqn ‘Sharp Shooters’) but also to undertake evaluation and standardisation requirements with operational squadrons. The 12 aircraft handed over in late December 2019 have been delivered to the operational units, while the bulk of the latter will undoubtedly go to the ‘Sharp Shooters’.

“Now, all efforts are being turned towards production of the newer, more capable Block III JF-17s. While final assembly of the dual-seaters was ongoing at the AMF, the SPG [Small Part Manufacturing] had started work on the components of the Block III.” Given that his previous role was JF-17 Chief Project Director (CPD), AM Noman is fully conversant with Block III. “Among the several improvements over the Block I/ II JF-17s is the new KLJ-7A AESA airborne electronically scanned array radar.”

After evaluating three different radars, the CETC (China Electronics Technology Corporation) KLJ-7A was selected in late 2019 and allows for a new generation of weapons and air-to-air missiles. The chairman continued: “A second Block III prototype has been flying in China since August last year, joining the first example delivered in December 2019, that was already undergoing test and evaluation there. By the time we deliver the first serial production Block III from PAC in early 2022 most of the work will be complete. While our flight test pilots and engineers [of the co-located Flight Test Group] are doing most of their work here, they travel to China when the need arises.

“The first Block III is expected to fly from PAC Kamra later this year with the new radar, which we are co-producing at the Avionics Production Factory. This facility has over the past 20 years or so, worked on the Grifo radars [for both the Chengdu F-7P/PG and Dassault Mirage IIIs] as well as the original KLJ-7 in the JF-17 Block I/IIs, so is more than capable of working on the new radar.”

The KLJ-7A will eventually be retrofitted into the JF-17B, so making it a very capable tactical trainer, which several foreign forces are apparently studying. AM Noman explained that although there is a requirement for 50 Block IIIs, only around 30 have initially been contracted, the rest may come later. With a KLJ-7A production line being created at APF, there is every likelihood the earlier Block I/II JF-17s could be upgraded too.


Chinese partners
Other than the AESA radar, the main difference between the Block II and Block III JF-17s, according to the chairman, is a helmet mounted display the PAF is working on with companies in China and Pakistan, three axis fly-by-wire, an enhanced EW management system and a chin-mounted hard point. The PAF has acquired the Aselsan targeting pod, known simply as the Aselpod, with eight ordered so far to support integration, plus a follow-on purchase of 50 made up of three batches.


During the JF-17B roll-out on December 30, 2020, three JF-17 Block IIs destined for the Nigerian Air Force were seen in the line-up. According to AM Noman, these will be delivered in the March 2021 timeframe, while training the pilots is a joint PAC/PAF effort: “We are training around 50 pilots and technicians as and when required by the NAF.” When I asked if the Nigerians were set to order more JF-17s, the chairman said, “We hope so. You should ask them!”

The Aircraft Repair Factory, previously known as the F6 Rebuild Factory, used to overhaul the Shenyang FT-5, FT-6 and Chengdu F-7P in addition to the existing F-7PGs and K-8s – that make up the PAF’s Chinese fleet. Now with the first three types retired, the facility obviously has extra capacity that is enabling it to turn its attention to the JF-17.

By mid-2019, work on the first two aircraft had been completed, and the chairman confirmed that two more have been finished since then. All the fleet will go through ARF eventually, as PAC aims to keep pace with the PAF’s operational requirements.

Super Mushshak
The other aircraft in full production at the AMF, headed up by Air Vice Marshal Shams-Ul-Haq, is the MFI-17 Super Mushshak. Since a glass cockpit was introduced – incorporating Dynon, Garmin and more recently Genesys – the Super Mushshak has benefitted from a significant boost in sales. The chairman stated: “The choice of the digital avionics system is down to the customer – we tell the customer [about] their capabilities and cost, as we do for anything else that they might want in the aircraft. Customers have recently shown particular interest in the Genesys system which we integrated in 2019.”

The first order could come from an in-country customer, although he wouldn’t confirm whether that would be the air force or army. On the export front, Nigeria (ten), Qatar (eight), Azerbaijan (ten) and Turkey (52) have all ordered them, with deliveries completed to the first three customers between 2017-2019. The Turkish Air force ordered two prototypes and 50 serial production aircraft in May 2017, and while it was initially agreed they would be built at Ankara-based Turkish Aerospace, the work is now being carried out at AMF.

“Unfortunately COVID has affected the progress of production but hopefully won’t delay the deliveries over the next three years,” he said. The first two Turkish Super Mushshaks, to be equipped with the Garmin avionics system, have flown and are now painted in their colour scheme with the first batch of aircraft slated for delivery within 2021.

Civil contracts
When asked if the Royal Saudi Air Force was set to upgrade its fleet of 20 Super Mushshaks flying with the King Faisal Air Academy, the Air Marshal would only say that discussions were still ongoing.

With regards to simulation systems, he said the PAF was using the Super Mushshak system to train cadets at the Asghar Khan Academy: “However, the aircraft is very easy to fly so customers are not really interested [in simulators], but it’s an area we would definitely like to [explore].”

As a natural extension of its activities, PAC is now diversifying into overhauling civil airliners. It has formed a partnership with Lithuania’s ASG to overhaul widebody Airbus A330s and Boeing 777s. “We are the first EASA qualified facility in Pakistan for these aircraft and are primarily focused on foreign airlines, because PIA [Pakistan International Airlines] has its own facilities. Our first facility is at Islamabad International Airport and the second one will be at Karachi IAP,” he said.

Undoubtedly, Air Marshal Syed Noman Ali, who has now been the PAC boss for over a year, faces many challenges but the biggest right now “is to the meet the deadlines of our customers during this restricted COVID-19 era.”



and some details about the KLJ-7A air cooled AESA radar selected for the JF-17 Block 3. The air cooled AESA radar is a poor option, compared to liquid cooled AESA radars and this will definitely have much poorer performance at peak power and higher altitudes than comparable liquid cooled AESA radars.

Pakis had the option of choosing between one air cooled option (KLJ-7A) and another LETRI(NE) air cooled option and opted for the former as well as a liquid cooled option of KLJ-7A but apparently upgradability of Block 2 JF-17s was the big factor that led them to choose the air cooled option. Good for us.

Pakistan selects KLJ-7A air cooled AESA radar for JF-17 Blck 3

According to a recent report by aviation journalist Alan Warnes, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) selected the KLJ-7A active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for the JF-17 Block-III.[1] The Block-III is the newest variant of the PAF’s mainstay fighters, of which it operates over 120 aircraft in multiple variants.

Developed by the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET), the KLJ-7A was revealed in 2016 as a potential option for the JF-17. NRIET was competing against the Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI), which was offering its LKF601E air-cooled AESA radar.

Though the KLJ-7A was available in multiple versions, one with a fixed-array, another with a mechanically steered panel, and a form with side-mounted panels.[2] However, Warnes’ noted that the PAF opted for an air-cooled version of the KLJ-7A, potentially indicating the existence of a fourth variant.[3]

In 2016, NRIET reportedly said that the KLJ-7A offers a maximum range of 170 km against a target with a radar cross-section (RCS) of 5m2.[4] NRIET added that the KLJ-7A uses over 1,000 transmit/receive modules (TRM), and is capable of tracking 15 targets and simultaneously engaging four.[5] It also has over 11 modes for operation, including synthetic aperture radar (SAR).[6]

It is unclear how the air-cooled configuration would impact the KLJ-7A’s performance, but the competing LKF601E (also air-cooled) offered near-identical results. So, like the KLJ-7A, the LKF601E offers a range of 170 km for ‘fighter-sized’ targets, with the ability to track 15 of them simultaneously, and engage four at once.[7] However, LETRI did not disclose how many TRMs it is using in the LKF601E.[8]

Thus, an air-cooled variant of the KLJ-7A should at least be as capable of the LKF601E. However, compared to the liquid-cooled version of the KLJ-7A, the air-cooled variant could be lighter in weight, and smaller in size. The benefit of this choice could be that it would be easier to retrofit to earlier JF-17 models.


Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5422
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 01 Mar 2021 18:32



This video from LETRI clearly shows that the existing KLJ-7 Mechanically scanning array radar has a range of 80 km against 5 m2 targets. That's the detection range for a JF-17 Block 1 and 2 as of now. Go to 1:00 minute mark to see this being shown as part of the promotional material. Obviously LETRI knows the range of the NRIET KLJ-7 radar very well. So this is the best source for KLJ-7 radar detection range so far.

NRIET's KLJ-7A air cooled AESA radar was chosen over the advertised LETRI LKF-601E air cooled AESA radar eventually.

Interestingly, the video shows the IAF Mirage-2000I as the primary air to air enemy. Clearly the most feared IAF fighter as was also borne out by the events of 27th Feb 2019, till the induction of the Rafale.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12619
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Mar 2021 18:35

From the above article the Block III is flying in China, JF-17 is totally a Chinese aircraft with Pakis doing Scredrivergiri at PAC Kamra, there is no list of Pakistani suppliers. Chinese call the shots and make most of the decisions.

Note from the articles the Myanmar JF-17's are not mentioned and prototypes are built in China, so it is clearly a CHinese project with Pakistani assembly.

Our Inputs in Jaguar's, SU-30 etc were much higher.


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