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Tactics & military craft

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shiv
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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby shiv » 16 Dec 2017 20:29

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Sir, I will answer your question in more detail afrer giving it some thoughts but there are some immediate (not so modern) solutions which will save lives, imporve morale and make us more effective in battle. The following are needed asap :

1. Night Vision Goggles - all troops
2. Easy to use short range communication equipment so that section commander doesn't have to shout his orders out. This has to be issued to all troops
3. Good helmets and BPJs
4. Shoes, standard issue water bottle and some decent personal equipment like blankets, mugs and mess tins. Not 100 year old designs pls.
5. Knee Pads
6. Weapons


For what it is worth - I put this out as a Tweet to Raksha Mantri Please RT - I ask those who are on Twitter

@nsitharamanoffc @nsitharaman Madam would it be too difficult to give our troops this?
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/941960741250244608

shiv
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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby shiv » 16 Dec 2017 22:36

Akshay Kapoor wrote:To answer your specific question wrt to the MMG scenario. The first question is how do you sight it and establish range. What tech do the US use and at what range can they sight ? Then how do you neutralise it. Mortars can indeed be used but remember it was 2 MMGs guarding a bunker and Section 1 task was the right MMG. So unless mortar can take out both MMGs and the bunker roughly simulatenously the other two sections will still have to do their jobs and now have lost the element of surprise. Bunkers are hard to take out by arty and mortar in indirect fire.

Rockets/ anti tank missiles are better options to my mind. But needs clear line of sight.

Right sir. I was "daydreaming" you could say. From what I know it may be very difficult to pick up a well sited MMG while flying in an aircraft.

You are basically speaking of situations that the army has faced time and again and men have shown great valour and given lives to get the enemy from such situations. There are many stories of men rushing the last few meters to the MMG post - taking bullets as they run and then silencing the post even as they give their lives. The number of stories is astounding from 62, 65 and 99 and brings tears to one's eyes. I just wonder if every section or our army in a tricky spot can get "third party support".

That said - mortar fire has been used very effectively - by the Chinese against our men in 1962. Sushant Singhs book section about Sri Lanka speaks of how the Sri Lankan army gave our spl forces mortar fire support against LTTE. There must be Indian stories as well.

"Giving coordinates" is obviously not easy and I can only guess what the US may be doing. From a few things I have read here and there - men under fire who have access to some "third party" support like air support will either have to broadcast their own position and make a rough estimate of the direction and distance of the gun placements using landmarks like terrain or tree features. I guess a flare would help show their own position if aircraft were in the area. If they have GPS for their own position - fine - or else even that has to be a guesstimate. I know there are commercial laser rangers that can measure up to 1000 meters or more - used by golfers

Of course history wise Air Observation post aircraft have been used since WW1 and hopefully UAVs can be put to good use in future - but again "more weight and equipment" to be carried. Longewala was a success in a major part because of Atma Singh the army Aviation AOP pilot who guided the aircraft to the first Paki tanks. Once they started burning the later pilots could see the smoke.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Anoop » 16 Dec 2017 23:01

1. Night Vision Goggles - all troops
2. Easy to use short range communication equipment so that section commander doesn't have to shout his orders out. This has to be issued to all troops
3. Good helmets and BPJs
4. Shoes, standard issue water bottle and some decent personal equipment like blankets, mugs and mess tins. Not 100 year old designs pls.
5. Knee Pads.


Sir,

What are the weight and maintenance implications of BPJs and NVG respectively? I can understand their utility in COIN where extra LMG rounds etc are not carried and much patrolling and ambushes are laid at night, but with the already icreasing weight load on the infantryman, would this be counter productive in conventional war? Especially with little access to repair facilities for items like NVG, short range radio etc for a unit on the move. Lt Gen Hasnain's article talks of the challenges with carrying batteries for HHTI even in COIN.

Thank you.

Anoop
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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Anoop » 16 Dec 2017 23:10

It is very interesting to hear how much reorientation is required when moving to a new location or from COIN to regular roles. I would think that the change is maximum for Armd and Arty and some for Mech Inf, but it looks like its substantial even for Inf. The late Brig. Ray had mentioned that the COIN deployment had eaten into training for primary roles, but had increased battle innoculation and familiarity with small unit tactics. And that officer troop relationships had declined because there was just no time, even in a "peace" area posting.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Dec 2017 00:14

shiv wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:To answer your specific question wrt to the MMG scenario. The first question is how do you sight it and establish range. What tech do the US use and at what range can they sight ? Then how do you neutralise it. Mortars can indeed be used but remember it was 2 MMGs guarding a bunker and Section 1 task was the right MMG. So unless mortar can take out both MMGs and the bunker roughly simulatenously the other two sections will still have to do their jobs and now have lost the element of surprise. Bunkers are hard to take out by arty and mortar in indirect fire.

Rockets/ anti tank missiles are better options to my mind. But needs clear line of sight.

Right sir. I was "daydreaming" you could say. From what I know it may be very difficult to pick up a well sited MMG while flying in an aircraft.

You are basically speaking of situations that the army has faced time and again and men have shown great valour and given lives to get the enemy from such situations. There are many stories of men rushing the last few meters to the MMG post - taking bullets as they run and then silencing the post even as they give their lives. The number of stories is astounding from 62, 65 and 99 and brings tears to one's eyes. I just wonder if every section or our army in a tricky spot can get "third party support".

That said - mortar fire has been used very effectively - by the Chinese against our men in 1962. Sushant Singh's book section about Sri Lanka speaks of how the Sri Lankan army gave our spl forces mortar fire support against LTTE. There must be Indian stories as well.

"Giving coordinates" is obviously not easy and I can only guess what the US may be doing. From a few things I have read here and there - men under fire who have access to some "third party" support like air support will either have to broadcast their own position and make a rough estimate of the direction and distance of the gun placements using landmarks like terrain or tree features. I guess a flare would help show their own position if aircraft were in the area. If they have GPS for their own position - fine - or else even that has to be a guesstimate. I know there are commercial laser rangers that can measure up to 1000 meters or more - used by golfers

Of course history wise Air Observation post aircraft have been used since WW1 and hopefully UAVs can be put to good use in future - but again "more weight and equipment" to be carried. Longewala was a success in a major part because of Atma Singh the army Aviation AOP pilot who guided the aircraft to the first Paki tanks. Once they started burning the later pilots could see the smoke.


Please don't call me sir. I'm sure I'm younger than you, allow me to savour that :-)

The Americans would indeed not follow our tactics and bring very heavy fire to bear to totally eliminate the target. As long all 3 objectives can be eliminated near simultaneously there is merit in what you say. Mortars given the CEP (as Ramanaji pointed out) and also the fact that well protected bunkers can survive mortar and arty just mean that mortars won't be the weapon of choice in this case but either rockets or missiles delivered by the infantry or by air support.

Re locating and ranging - the infantry soldier in the example is supposed to use many means to locate and range the target for his advance so he can get the range. One way is by drawing enemy fire by running low in the open for a very short period, or by firing shots into the suspected direction of enemy. Now ball is in enemy's court. Very well trained and disciplined troops will niether fire back nor will they fire at the running soldier. The NCC handbook also mentions this. Not sure how exact co-ordinates can be got though. But yes GPS with all troops is standard in western armies and I am told that in China and worryingly its happening in Pak too. It was part of the ISAS - Infantry Soldier as System concept.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Dec 2017 00:22

Re ' there must be Indian stories to tell' on mortar support in Sri Lanka I have a great one I heard first hand from the officer it happened to. This was a batallion of the Assam Regt and a newly minted 2nd Lt leading a convoy. Suddenly there was an ambush. He jumped out , troops jumped out, he professionally sighted his troops and ordered '2 inch mortar deploy karo'. He then directed small arms fire. Time passed and enemy fire didn't go down and he was waiting for the mortars. After some time he asks his subedar saab. 'Saab mortar deploy kar diya?'. Pat comes the response ' Haan sahab aapke hukum ke mutabiq mortar deploy kar diya'. He asks ' to fire kyun nahi kar rahe ho'. Answer 'sahab ammunition to doosra gadi mein aa raha hai' !

Since the order was to only deploy they deployed but did not fire and were so relaxed under fire that it didn't bother them that they were not firing. or did they think it was important to tell the officer that fire wouldn't come. The young officer though was first apoplectic with rage and then down to tears and later he understood the 'Rhino spirit' - total panache under fire.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby shiv » 17 Dec 2017 07:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Re ' there must be Indian stories to tell' on mortar support in Sri Lanka I have a great one I heard first hand from the officer it happened to. This was a batallion of the Assam Regt and a newly minted 2nd Lt leading a convoy. Suddenly there was an ambush. He jumped out , troops jumped out, he professionally sighted his troops and ordered '2 inch mortar deploy karo'. He then directed small arms fire. Time passed and enemy fire didn't go down and he was waiting for the mortars. After some time he asks his subedar saab. 'Saab mortar deploy kar diya?'. Pat comes the response ' Haan sahab aapke hukum ke mutabiq mortar deploy kar diya'. He asks ' to fire kyun nahi kar rahe ho'. Answer 'sahab ammunition to doosra gadi mein aa raha hai' !

Since the order was to only deploy they deployed but did not fire and were so relaxed under fire that it didn't bother them that they were not firing. or did they think it was important to tell the officer that fire wouldn't come. The young officer though was first apoplectic with rage and then down to tears and later he understood the 'Rhino spirit' - total panache under fire.

Yes - the story in Sushant Singhs book is vaguely similar though in an urban scenario and eventually that group got mortar fire from the Sri Lankan army but there is a sad story associated with that - will re read before posting.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby shiv » 17 Dec 2017 07:57

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Please don't call me sir. I'm sure I'm younger than you, allow me to savour that :-)

A formal Indian way of addressing others should not be mistaken for a reference to age. You get respect for your knowledge and experience not because you are an old codger. :D

Completely OT - but before I went to the UK I was told by gushing friends of how informal it is and no "sir/shir" stuff. But ranks were all implemented in a different way - in words and body language. So I decided that in India I will stick to Indian norms of politeness. We have our ways.... :wink:

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Dec 2017 12:59

shiv wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Please don't call me sir. I'm sure I'm younger than you, allow me to savour that :-)

A formal Indian way of addressing others should not be mistaken for a reference to age. You get respect for your knowledge and experience not because you are an old codger. :D

Completely OT - but before I went to the UK I was told by gushing friends of how informal it is and no "sir/shir" stuff. But ranks were all implemented in a different way - in words and body language. So I decided that in India I will stick to Indian norms of politeness. We have our ways.... :wink:


Hahaha, very true sir. Me too - I respect our culture and call my seniors sir. Its experience,knowledge and number of summers negotiated :D No offence, I just couldn't resist.

Back to topic - mortars are an important source of support fire which is why a battalion has a 81 mm (3 inch) mortar platoon and companies have 51 mm mortars (2 inch mortars) which are allocated to platoons or concentrated in fire as needed. My only point was that it is a very high trajectory weapon so can clear a lot of obstacles (hence very useful to infantry in mountains) and cause damage as long as enemy does not have significant over head protection - ie a bunker. Anyway a major task of cover fire from mortar and arty is to keep the enemy head down while you close up to storm the position. So a mortar can definitely used in situations as needed to provide cover for the assault but the assault is still needed unless the target can be destroyed by other means. And once its destroyed infantry will still be needed to hold it.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Dec 2017 13:05

Quiz - In the handbook and in the above posts there is a reference to using fire to find the locations and ranges of enemy positions. This is depicted very well in an iconic Indian war movie. Which movie was that, what was the tactic used and what new information did it give.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Anoop » 17 Dec 2017 14:17

Lakshya. Two fighting patrols were used to draw fire to locate the mortar sites. From he short time interval between two rounds landing, it was concluded that there were 2 mortar positions, not one, because the time taken for reloading would have been greater than the time between two shell landings.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Dec 2017 15:13

Anoop wrote:Lakshya. Two fighting patrols were used to draw fire to locate the mortar sites. From he short time interval between two rounds landing, it was concluded that there were 2 mortar positions, not one, because the time taken for reloading would have been greater than the time between two shell landings.


Well done ! Correction - not two mortars but two LMGs

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Dec 2017 15:19

Anoop wrote:
1. Night Vision Goggles - all troops
2. Easy to use short range communication equipment so that section commander doesn't have to shout his orders out. This has to be issued to all troops
3. Good helmets and BPJs
4. Shoes, standard issue water bottle and some decent personal equipment like blankets, mugs and mess tins. Not 100 year old designs pls.
5. Knee Pads.


Sir,

What are the weight and maintenance implications of BPJs and NVG respectively? I can understand their utility in COIN where extra LMG rounds etc are not carried and much patrolling and ambushes are laid at night, but with the already icreasing weight load on the infantryman, would this be counter productive in conventional war? Especially with little access to repair facilities for items like NVG, short range radio etc for a unit on the move. Lt Gen Hasnain's article talks of the challenges with carrying batteries for HHTI even in COIN.

Thank you.


Good quality body armour used by western armies and increasingly by our adversaries is light and very easy to wear compared to what we currently have. Same with NVGs - we dont have any but good quality NVGs are very light. I think you have drawn the wrong conclusions from Gen Hasnain's article. He is saying lets get better HHTIs because current ones are old and don't work and are heavy. He is not saying lets not get HHTIs !!! In fact he cites Uri as an example of how lack of HHTIs caused the casualties. His central point is - nation cannot keep expecting security without paying for it and its high time the forces start pushing back and say ' you get the security that you pay for'. Please don't distort his article.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Dec 2017 15:25

Anoop wrote:It is very interesting to hear how much reorientation is required when moving to a new location or from COIN to regular roles. I would think that the change is maximum for Armd and Arty and some for Mech Inf, but it looks like its substantial even for Inf. The late Brig. Ray had mentioned that the COIN deployment had eaten into training for primary roles, but had increased battle innoculation and familiarity with small unit tactics. And that officer troop relationships had declined because there was just no time, even in a "peace" area posting.


Why would armour need more orientation ? The terrains they normally work in is less varied and has lees variation. Think please - deserts, semi arid and plains have more similarities than high altitude and riverine and deserts and place no ? Did you perhaps not mean the entire units but mean armoured troops in RR needing reorientation while coming back to the armoured role and that infantry and ENGR troops would need less ? Even so orientation needed is the same because tactics are very different in COIN and coventional ops and conventional ops in different terrain is also different.

Relationships have declined for a variety of reasons and lack of time (driven by a very stretched and committed army) is one of them. Others are - constant degradation of the armd forces by the govt relative to civil services, quality of officer intake , interference by govt, low pay etc. These are OT here so lets keep to tactics and military craft.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Anoop » 17 Dec 2017 18:41

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Good quality body armour used by western armies and increasingly by our adversaries is light and very easy to wear compared to what we currently have. Same with NVGs - we dont have any but good quality NVGs are very light. I think you have drawn the wrong conclusions from Gen Hasnain's article. He is saying lets get better HHTIs because current ones are old and don't work and are heavy. He is not saying lets not get HHTIs !!! In fact he cites Uri as an example of how lack of HHTIs caused the casualties. His central point is - nation cannot keep expecting security without paying for it and its high time the forces start pushing back and say ' you get the security that you pay for'. Please don't distort his article.


Re. Gen Hasnain's article, I fully concede the central premise. My question was specifically on the weight issue in general, with the infantryman's load increasing. I stand corrected on the weight penalty of specific items now.

Re. the next post on reorientation, yes I was referring to Armd personnel returning from RR deployment.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2017 08:36

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Back to topic - mortars are an important source of support fire which is why a battalion has a 81 mm (3 inch) mortar platoon and companies have 51 mm mortars (2 inch mortars) which are allocated to platoons or concentrated in fire as needed. My only point was that it is a very high trajectory weapon so can clear a lot of obstacles (hence very useful to infantry in mountains) and cause damage as long as enemy does not have significant over head protection - ie a bunker. Anyway a major task of cover fire from mortar and arty is to keep the enemy head down while you close up to storm the position. So a mortar can definitely used in situations as needed to provide cover for the assault but the assault is still needed unless the target can be destroyed by other means. And once its destroyed infantry will still be needed to hold it.

Akshay what is the weight of a 2 inch and 3 inch mortar round?

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Dec 2017 12:03

shiv wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Back to topic - mortars are an important source of support fire which is why a battalion has a 81 mm (3 inch) mortar platoon and companies have 51 mm mortars (2 inch mortars) which are allocated to platoons or concentrated in fire as needed. My only point was that it is a very high trajectory weapon so can clear a lot of obstacles (hence very useful to infantry in mountains) and cause damage as long as enemy does not have significant over head protection - ie a bunker. Anyway a major task of cover fire from mortar and arty is to keep the enemy head down while you close up to storm the position. So a mortar can definitely used in situations as needed to provide cover for the assault but the assault is still needed unless the target can be destroyed by other means. And once its destroyed infantry will still be needed to hold it.

Akshay what is the weight of a 2 inch and 3 inch mortar round?


I think its a little under 1 kg and little over 4 kg respectively. I think the OFB website has good information. Let me check.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ramana » 18 Dec 2017 22:52

Wiki says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-inch_mortar

2" mortar round about 1 kg. Two different weights given on same page. 960 g and 1 kg.

I think OFB has a new re-designed 2" round.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_ML_3_inch_mortar

Shell is 10Lb or 4.5 kg.

However this is replaced by 81mm mortar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L16_81mm_mortar

Shell weight: 4.2 Kg


My favorite is 120mm mortar which is a battalion artillery regiment asset.

http://www.ofb.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wme/3.htm
Not clear if its rifled but expect it would be at that ranges.

Shell:
http://www.ofb.gov.in/products/data/amm ... /mb/12.htm
Shell weight 13.2 kg

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 01:06

120 mm is arty weapon sir not with an inf bn.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ramana » 19 Dec 2017 02:42

Yes you did say so before.

Sorry.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2017 08:47

Akshay Kapoor wrote: mortars are an important source of support fire which is why a battalion has a 81 mm (3 inch) mortar platoon and companies have 51 mm mortars (2 inch mortars) which are allocated to platoons or concentrated in fire as needed.

Let me stick to company level 51 mm mortar. I got the data from the OFB page
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wme/1.htm

I am guessing that in the situation you spoke of where an advancing section are pinned down by by two MMGs - mortar fire support would be useful for making the enemy keep his own head down. The OFB page places the range of 51 mm mortar at 200-850 meters - which would put the mortar operators well within MMG range - so they would need some sort of terrain cover. Or else battalion level fire support from 2-5 km behind - which would mean good communication between company in front and rear areas.

With each 51 mm mortar shell weighing in at 1 kg - and a rate of fire of 8 rounds per minute - 40 kgs of mortars would allow 5 minutes fire support. Or else there has to be a good logistics line up to the company level mortar team - but that logistics line would be under fore from the MMGs - so that would be a difficult proposition.

In the real world Akshay, setting aside the sacrifice and heroism, how would this 2 MMG problem be addressed?

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 10:36

It really depends on the situation - level of surprise needed, terrain. My example was a real life example. I described a section taking out one of the MMGs with fire and move using surprise , natural cover and a final charge to close in using grenades, rifles and bayonet. Section 2 would do exactly the same with the other MMG and in coordination with section 1 to ensure that the two MMGs do not support each other with their arcs of fire. Section 3 would take on the bunker using Rockets or missiles if available.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 10:50

shiv wrote:
I am guessing that in the situation you spoke of where an advancing section are pinned down by by two MMGs snip


No the MMG has not pinned down the section till at least the last 50 yards because surprise has been achieved. That's the entire point about fieldcraft and battle carft and these tactics.

But of course things may go wrong, both sections may not be able to advance simultaneously and one of them may be discovered etc etc. Here come the many tradeoffs and decisions needed by the platoon commander and the coy commander while giving the platoon its task. Shall I hold section 3 in reserve to give some fire support to 1 and 2 if needed. Can 51 mm mortars be used ? Perhaps or perhaps not - my own sections are too close to the enemy to do that. What about RLs ? Do I have clear line of sight from my position etc etc. Can I even see the battle develop properly, am I in communication with the sections ? Am I pinned down myself ? What if there are some unexpected surprises in the bunker - they may have heavy weapons too.

It all depends Shivji. At the end casualties may occur and there may be no substitute for storming the position.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 10:55

The whole point of this thread is to make people visualise the situations and think and you have done just that. Shows you how tricky and uncertain things can be , doesn't it.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Dec 2017 11:12

Sir where does psychology come into this mix.
A PC or Cor Cdr or Bn Cdr needs to think about the particular psychology of his men while giving the task and also who executes based on their individual leadership skills?
I ask that because I had an interesting chat with a Armd Offr who was from a Cav Regt with Sikhs and how he described their mental make-up was quite different to what our Dogra boys had.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby deejay » 19 Dec 2017 11:55

Its called Morale, I think.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 12:51

ks_sachin wrote:Sir where does psychology come into this mix.
A PC or Cor Cdr or Bn Cdr needs to think about the particular psychology of his men while giving the task and also who executes based on their individual leadership skills?
I ask that because I had an interesting chat with a Armd Offr who was from a Cav Regt with Sikhs and how he described their mental make-up was quite different to what our Dogra boys had.


I am always fascinated to hear about differences in troops. Pray tell us what the armoured officer said about their mental make up and the contrast with the Dogra boys.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 14:37

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
ParGha wrote:Please clarify for this discussion:

1. What are the upper limits of tactical employment -- Is it the Western European definition of up to battalion (and equivalent unit) action? Or is it the Soviet definition of up to division (and equivalent formation) action? Along the same lines, what constitutes a tactical vs. operational objective?

2. Can we identify individual units by name when referring to their training and ethos if the information is public but not well-known? For example, Xth and Yth battalions of the same regiment in IPKF had very different training and ethos, in line with their planned deployment against Pakistan. When they were deployed against the LTTE in Sri Lanka -- same terrain, same enemy, same technology, same overall command, similar missions -- their tactics and results were very different.


1. Scope is all four dimensions - air, land, sea and underwater. Formation level - all levels if you have something useful to add. Test is whether the post is thought out and researched and shows serious effort or not.

2. Depends upon the sensitivity of information and its possible use to adversary. Caution should be the watch word. Re your examples of old operations and public though well known information I think it would be fine. In fact I am very intrigued by your suggested example. Please post.


Looking forward to your post.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Zynda » 19 Dec 2017 22:27

X-Posting...
At around 1:32 min mark, can see a couple of soldiers carrying Ballistic Shields. Seems like finally ballistic shields are reaching to operating IA Jawans.


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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Dec 2017 05:55

deejay wrote:Its called Morale, I think.

deejay Sir,

not necessarily.

That is a broad term.

Is there a psychological dimension other than morale that comes into play in tactical decision making?

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2017 08:21

ks_sachin wrote:
deejay wrote:Its called Morale, I think.

deejay Sir,

not necessarily.

That is a broad term.

Is there a psychological dimension other than morale that comes into play in tactical decision making?


Sachin I can recommend a few books. I have read them

1. Acts of War: the behaviour of men in Battle by Richard Holmes
2. Men against Fire: the problem of Battle Command by SLA "Slam" Marshall

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ramana » 20 Dec 2017 09:30

Number 2 is great. You can download it.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Dec 2017 11:38

ks_sachin wrote:
deejay wrote:Its called Morale, I think.

deejay Sir,

not necessarily.

That is a broad term.

Is there a psychological dimension other than morale that comes into play in tactical decision making?


You have asked an important question and I want to answer it but waiting for you to set the ball rolling by telling us what the Cav officer said about Sikh troops and your perspective about the Dogra troops. Don't keep us waiting !

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Dec 2017 21:22

KS_Sachin, ParGha please check your pm

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Dec 2017 06:31

Akshay Kapoor wrote:KS_Sachin, ParGha please check your pm

Noted sir.

I preface my response by stating that I am no expert on this but have observed and asked questions...and still ask them...

The Cav officer I think was from 'Tresath' which a lot of Sikh troops.

The SIkh or Jat troops need firm handling. They will test you and if you earn their respect they will do anything for you. They prefer a more direct style of leadership.

Being an adopted Dogri I saw the Himachali boys as much easier to handle. There was perhaps a degree of deference to authority that you may not find in the Sikhs or the JAts or the Madrasis.

Now the Madrasis are an interesting bunch. The recruitment to this regiment occurs from all over south India. By all accounts and through offrs who have commanded these troops (indirectly as a Bde Cdr and Div Cdr) they were "bloody good" but different to the GR..but how was the question I asked? Initiative was one response...

But the Madras Regt recruits from all over South India. They are not a homogeneous psychological or cultural profile...

Another question I have here is how does regiment shape the men who serve in it...

Is a kannadiga (from Karnataka) serving in the Madras different from the Kannadiga serving in the Marathas or the Mahars?

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ramana » 21 Dec 2017 09:22

The whole idea is regimental ethos and conforming to it.

I think we are getting diverted from thread title.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Dec 2017 09:32

ramana wrote:The whole idea is regimental ethos and conforming to it.

I think we are getting diverted from thread title.


Not quite....As a battalion commander or a company commander I will invoke the regimental ethos but I will also have a pulse on the me and deploy appropriate leadership at a company level or platoon level if I need....for achieving my goals....

So how does this play out in the tactical planning - if it does - was my question to this august group!

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Dec 2017 15:14

Thanks Sachin. I was hoping for more specific examples but this is useful colour. I’m just waiting for ParGha to post re different bns of the same Regt as he alluded to. I will then answer your questions and make some points. Ramana sir, you are right - though it is not directy relavent directly to tactics, these matters pertain to an important point in military craft - how to chose the right person for the job and how to motivate him and how to use your troops to the best advantage. It also highlights the criticality of really drilling in basic skills in all troops - point you very eloquently and correctly made when you said your NCC ustaad hammered in section and platoon tactics. Trick is to ensure that these examples are used to forward the discussion and not let it veer off. If handled properly it can be quite illuminating.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Zynda » 21 Dec 2017 15:26

I think this post fits here the closest.

A kind of a visualization & training tool of how AN/APG-63 (probably most Western Radar systems & probably Russian ones as well) radar cone works. Onlee applies to mech scanned radar. Probably in AESA, it is possible to lock on to a single target (in F-15 radar, the system automatically switches over to Single Target Track (STT) mode...a pencil beam mode) while the overall system still can do a RWS or TWS mode. The applet is mainly designed to provide info on how radar beam cone works for the above radar set as modeled in a game but I have read comments from supposedly real USAF pilots using the same to illustrate the principles for rookie pilots in their squadrons.

Anyways, I hope this gives a flavor of what pilots need to do. The applet is interactive. There is a short video tutorial on how to work the applet.

https://tawdcs.org/radar-f15/

IRL, the target can move in or out of radar cones based on altitude...the closer the target is towards the aircraft, the radar cone width (height) becomes smaller and depending on the altitude of the host aircraft, pilot needs to adjust the elevation (angle) of the radar antenna.

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Re: Tactics & military craft

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Dec 2017 17:02

Right, so how do differences in troops play out in tactical planning, operations and leadership. Lets stick to section and platoon for now.

And lets stick with the first two (tactical planning and operations) for now. The main difference is how troops interpret orders and how much initiative they employ and it is very important for a commander to have a pulse on this so that he can plan and then calibrate his command and control accordingly to ensure task is completed.

Example - I posted the example about the Assam Regt in Sri Lanka where the ammunition for 2 inch mortar was in a different vehicle and the JCO just deployed the mortar but did not fire as he did not have ammunition and did not inform the officer. Three reasons for this - one they were battle hardened and were relaxed under the ambush, two their mental make up - they handle hardship and adversity easily especially in jungles which is a natural habitat and lastly they don't ask for clarification of orders unless absolutely necessary. It could be perceived as cowardice they think. So a young officer must know this and when he gives an order he should anticipate how they will take it and anticipate their thoughts, reaction, questions , everything. This takes experience and the troops themselves will teach him. That is why he has to spend some time say a month after joining the unit or in the regimental centre living with the troops in their barracks and also learning their language.

Example - Some troops interpret orders literally (Gorkha Rifles) and some will allow themselves a little leeway in implementing them and have more communication and feedback. It may happen a different points of the battle - Gorkhas like to think they are primarily for assault and in assault may take risks that others may not consider necessary. So a good officer needs to know what parameters to cover in his orders depending on the troops. How much command and control to maintain, what instructions to give to the section commanders, when to maintain a tight leash and when to let them go. It matters out of operations as well. For example in high altitude areas Gorkha Rifle officers have to specifically check their feet to see if they have danger of frost bite because they won't report it as it cowardice. A lot of troops in IA are similar so officers have to have a hand on their

But these are what I call secondary effects, primarily every one is fully trained for the tasks and battle drills are hammered in. Tactics and planning at higher levels will not vary at all. All units are supposed to be able to do all tasks they are chartered for. Its in leadership and handling at sub unit level that these issues are to be kept in the mind.


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