Whine Thread-2

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ramana
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Whine Thread-2

Postby ramana » 25 Dec 2017 23:12

I am creating this thread for the members to post their whines, complaints, dhoti or lungi. chaddi shivers.

The admins will move all such posts to this thread.

I am going to move a lot of threads from LCA and other threads to here.

By the same token, too many whines are not good and will be noted.

Thanks,
ramana

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby Manish_P » 26 Dec 2017 15:11

:shock: There was a separate thread for whines (and rants) earlier ?

With no disrespect to the earlier set of moderators, i would like to give a hat tip to the current set of Moderators.
Visibly active, politely firm and fast acting. Thank you. Hope this thread will not be fast-moving :)

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby chola » 26 Dec 2017 17:31

Manish_P wrote::shock: There was a separate thread for whines (and rants) earlier ?

With no disrespect to the earlier set of moderators, i would like to give a hat tip to the current set of Moderators.
Visibly active, politely firm and fast acting. Thank you. Hope this thread will not be fast-moving :)


Considering the last group got rid of the GDF and my favorite, the Sex Nukkad . . .

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby rrao » 29 Dec 2017 16:24

Kaveri is under development for 30 odd years. How can any organization can exist in the world with out a credible product ? Had it been the aviation major , howling for its closure is rest assured !!! Go Take Rum and Enjoy!!!!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby jpremnath » 29 Dec 2017 17:02

rrao wrote:Kaveri is under development for 30 odd years. How can any organization can exist in the world with out a credible product ? Had it been the aviation major , howling for its closure is rest assured !!! Go Take Rum and Enjoy!!!!


Well, we also need to see if this organisation was given the support it needed in terms of funds, manpower and institutional approvals when needed. If not, we should acknowledge that we dont have the full story to judge an organisation who i believe has achieved more than what many have given it credit for...

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Pratyush » 29 Dec 2017 17:13

R Rao, you need to go through the Kaveri saga thread before judging GTRE.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chola » 29 Dec 2017 17:14

jpremnath wrote:
rrao wrote:Kaveri is under development for 30 odd years. How can any organization can exist in the world with out a credible product ? Had it been the aviation major , howling for its closure is rest assured !!! Go Take Rum and Enjoy!!!!


Well, we also need to see if this organisation was given the support it needed in terms of funds, manpower and institutional approvals when needed. If not, we should acknowledge that we dont have the full story to judge an organisation who i believe has achieved more than what many have given it credit for...


This organization, GTRE, was tasked with building a turbofan, the pinnacle class of the aerial engine world, and was able to get it to within the final mile of a test when our aerospace industry as a whole couldn’t even produce a lowly piston to fly our drones!

Considering that only the P5 had ever even tested a turbofan before GTRE, I would say it had achieved far more than what realistically should be expected. But we are not realistic, are we?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Misra » 29 Dec 2017 22:55

rrao wrote:Kaveri is under development for 30 odd years. How can any organization can exist in the world with out a credible product ? Had it been the aviation major , howling for its closure is rest assured !!! Go Take Rum and Enjoy!!!!


LIGO took 40 years of funding for it to make the groundbreaking discovery of gravitational waves—that is stupendous level of support. year after year the funding was based on just the commitment of the people involved. similar should be extended for the development of this engine in house—no matter what it takes needs to be the attitude

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 30 Dec 2017 10:11

rrao wrote:Kaveri is under development for 30 odd years. How can any organization can exist in the world with out a credible product ? Had it been the aviation major , howling for its closure is rest assured !!! Go Take Rum and Enjoy!!!!

Fine if you are thinking they are just doing nothing you are wrong. I have seen people struggling there.Simple thing like getting any company in India (and it includes private ones too for private panaceagaru's) to make an alloy according to specifications is a herculean task. Budgets do not allow them to make a large enough batch and so often it is a chicken and the egg situation for them. Getting the required alloys etc etc is more difficult than the design. Getting a testing bed is also a herculean task. Armchair engineers find it easy but work there and you will see with how much difficulty they actually work . Add the usual babudom etc and things go haywire . Let us not forget that they did produce a an engine which may have not reached the target but is nevertheless being used for the UCAV and marine engine.Remember even with the P5 China still is severely lagging in engine technology. It has found out that it cannot just rip off and steal designs as easily as it thouhgt.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 30 Dec 2017 10:43

^ OT, but even France cannot make all types of engines. Their larger powerplants have collaboration from RR and GE.
If kaveri becomes reliable and starts flying, it can be the basis for a 100 seat passenger jet, for example, in somewhat modified form.

Apparently, GTRE designed the Kaveri with 7 engine modules, which was shown at a DRDO exhibition in 2013. In comparison, F-404 has abt 11 engine modules.
The pics are online, Shiv Aroor's blog.

I request mods to upload the same on this thread , for record keeping purposes.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby rrao » 30 Dec 2017 12:48

prasanna simha sir, are you the same prasanna simha,(XXXXX)? If yes , it is praiseworthy that you did post some wonderful posts on MOM , ISRO. i remember reading during that time , in one of the posts that you were a XXX, when queried upon by one BRF member. I am under confusion regarding three things ...one is kaveri performance and project progress,Arjun tank and the third is 155mm indigenous artillery.one day i read that kaveri met all the specifications...immediately after few days another report will be published that kaveri is not meeting specs and can be useful only for fitment on locomotives and war ships? You have stated that GTRE doesn't have engine testbeds? Hope you know that AL-31FP,RD-33 Engine test beds have been established indigenously. As suggested by cybaru you can move my post to whine thread and clean-up the thread, if you think that kaveri seees light of the day!!! I also remember reading news reports , that one of the honchos heading GTRE was caught in a raid on a massage parlour in Bangalore . As far as my credentials are concerned ,you are free to assume me to be a armchair specialist. DRDO is a great organization and pride of our nation... But it needs to do more ....JaiHind.
Last edited by suryag on 30 Dec 2017 13:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Personal info removed

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby maitya » 30 Dec 2017 13:40

rrao wrote:<snip>
one day i read that kaveri met all the specifications...immediately after few days another report will be published that kaveri is not meeting specs and can be useful only for fitment on locomotives and war ships?
You have stated that GTRE doesn't have engine testbeds? Hope you know that AL-31FP,RD-33 Engine test beds have been established indigenously.
<snip>

Pls go thru the Kaveri Saga thread to fully appreciate the complexities and constraints of the program, before making such sweeping generalized statements.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby chetak » 30 Dec 2017 13:47

rrao wrote:prasanna simha sir, are you the same prasanna simha,(XXXXX)? If yes , it is praiseworthy that you did post some wonderful posts on MOM , ISRO. i remember reading during that time , in one of the posts that you were a XXX, when queried upon by one BRF member. I am under confusion regarding three things ...one is kaveri performance and project progress,Arjun tank and the third is 155mm indigenous artillery.one day i read that kaveri met all the specifications...immediately after few days another report will be published that kaveri is not meeting specs and can be useful only for fitment on locomotives and war ships? You have stated that GTRE doesn't have engine testbeds? Hope you know that AL-31FP,RD-33 Engine test beds have been established indigenously. As suggested by cybaru you can move my post to whine thread and clean-up the thread, if you think that kaveri seees light of the day!!! I also remember reading news reports , that one of the honchos heading GTRE was caught in a raid on a massage parlour in Bangalore . As far as my credentials are concerned ,you are free to assume me to be a armchair specialist. DRDO is a great organization and pride of our nation... But it needs to do more ....JaiHind.


there are plenty such test beds in India, mostly on the Govt side, including one that can be scaled up all the way to test giant turbofans powering 747s by ordering and adding some bits and pieces. It is now specifically tailored to test one engine only since that was the requirement.

On work related visits, I was very fortunate to actually see the AL-31FP and the RD-33 Engine test beds in actual operation.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 30 Dec 2017 20:38

They went to IIT's and NIT's for recruitment and guess what the number was zero. . They have asked for university integration guess what zero. Easy to say Hire and fire when you can't hire in the first place.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby JayS » 30 Dec 2017 23:29

prasannasimha wrote:They went to IIT's and NIT's for recruitment and guess what the number was zero. . They have asked for university integration guess what zero. Easy to say Hire and fire when you can't hire in the first place.


I have learnt a big lesson in last few weeks. If the what you want to do is aligned to the thinking of the higher ups in your organisation, things go very fast and smooth. If you are going against the stream, even if whatever you want to do makes a whole lot of sense, its quite an uphill task. Its very very difficult to go against set policies. All kind of bureaucratic shit is thrown at you. And this is MNC I am talking about. Point is - unless the higher power who has the authority to make things happen wants something to be done, nothing gets done really. Story of Kaveri is just the same. GOI never really showed any real intention to make Kaveri fly. Thus there are road blocks at every foot step. Even today, the proposal for 2500Cr funding is eating dust somewhere in MoD and no one is bothered to make flying testbed available for Kaveri, neither MiG29 nor LCA.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SiddharthS » 11 Jan 2018 17:40

Indians lack the concept of humiliation, precisely on which china has built its economic, military and cultural might. Never again has been carved deep in their politics and culture. when India was technologically ahead by importing arms, China chose short and mid term solution of inducting junk and kept on polishing it to become self-sufficient in the long term, and self-sufficient it has become.

On the other hand, after importing arms for decades and creating dependency, India worries about strategic alliances withering away if it does not import arms. A country like Turkey ,whose policies are antithetical to Indian interest, can hope to sell arms to India. If India keeps on importing arms it's going to be strategically irrelevant not just globally but in its own backyard.

After beating on puny little Pakistan for decades and obsessing over it, India and Indians have accrued a false sense of security and superiority, it has lost the sense of big picture. The cherry on the cake of import addiction will be put once India finds itself in a multi-front insecurity, surrounded by Chinese vassal states, lacking economic and military wherewithal to resist the Chinese ingress, it will be hollowed from inside by the Marxist in the universities; Socialist,Communist and Islamist in the politics; Maoist in the jungle and the corrupts in the armed forces, bureaucracy and politics; and that cherry would be to become Chinese vassal state and importing arms from China itself.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 11 Jan 2018 18:53

China did play very well to a very good plan.
When it was very weak
- it beat India hard (1962) (but not very hard) such that we did not attack back for next 50 years.
- it bribed the only superpower US with cheap factories
this gave it time to build its strength - economic, technology, now military.

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Jan 2018 22:31

Was wasting few hours on CDFs, realized India is a slum weak and dirty country. I am so scared that I feel unhappy at being the april fool to return india on april.
China OTOH is mighty nation, for her India is nothing but a minor irritant. That peace loving nation did not over take taiwan yet, because of its value for peace inherent in buddhist ideals

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2018 00:53

ArjunPandit wrote:Was wasting few hours on CDFs, realized India is a slum weak and dirty country. I am so scared that I feel unhappy at being the april fool to return india on april.
China OTOH is mighty nation, for her India is nothing but a minor irritant. That peace loving nation did not over take taiwan yet, because of its value for peace inherent in buddhist ideals



What is CDF?

Also its Ok. Just today IMF released a report prior to WEF meeting at Davos which shows India is #5 in world economy in real terms. Not just PPP.

we are getting there.

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Jan 2018 00:56

ramana wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Was wasting few hours on CDFs, realized India is a slum INFESTED weak and dirty country. I am so scared that I feel unhappy at being the april fool to return india on april.
China OTOH is mighty nation, for her India is nothing but a minor irritant. That peace loving nation did not over take taiwan yet, because of its value for peace inherent in buddhist ideals



What is CDF?

Also its Ok. Just today IMF released a report prior to WEF meeting at Davos which shows India is #5 in world economy in real terms. Not just PPP.

we are getting there.

CDF:=>China defence forums: https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/
They are seriously approaching pakdef.

As for WEF, Yes i saw that

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby JayS » 04 Mar 2018 23:16

moving post by Gagan from LCA thread here:

Gagan wrote:HAL does screwdrivergiri for aircraft whose private industry is elsewhere
Even the screwdrivergiri that HAL does, they do their due Jugaad all over the place and as a result HAL made products in general are cosmetically and operationally more glitch prone

Tejas should not go to HAL

Please GOI, do your due diligence!

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby Gagan » 04 Mar 2018 23:22

While the above may be called a whine, it is 16 annas true !

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2018 04:39

AP: Confucius say minol illitant in wong prace can be majol pain. Prease to irruminate CDF ruminalies.

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby srai » 05 Mar 2018 05:22

Fortunes have changed.

Import lobby, post in this thread :twisted:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 16 Apr 2018 05:11

Cy, you're spot on.I've asked the same Q two air shows ago when the AMCA models were first unveiled. It no longer becomes a 5th-gen bird with its " droppings" under its wings.The internal weapons bay is also too small for even BMos-NG.How many AAMs too will it be able to carry in stealth mode? When a larger more capable FGFA / SU-57 is already flying and MKIs upgraded can carry BMos-A, of what use will the AMCA be in 2030- the earliest that we can expect it? By then , as the LF piece states correctly, we would've created an F-35 type at least a decade later on, when 5++ gen or 6th-gen birds are in the skies.

We need a 5th-gen bird for the next 2 decades to match the PLAAF's stealth birds.The FGFA where we are engaged in a JV is the best option, it is now beginning serial production for the RuAF which will accelerate by 2020.The JSF will never appear in Indian skies as signing on the intrusive agreements to acquire even a "C" class export variant with reduced capability will take years of negotiations apart from the price.In any case the US wants to shove down our throats either of the 2 antiques first!

This brings one back to the cold truth.In medium sized aircraft you cannot expect the stealth capability of a larger bird which has a greater internal weapons bay.
Secondly, if underwing munitions are to be carried, a 4++ bird is good enough and will be at least 1/3rd of the price.
The LR strike missiles and glide bomb ordnance could have stealth instead, giving you far greater bang for the buck today, not a decade+ later ( the earliest date of induction).

When we are languishing getting the "pedestrian" 4th- gen LCA into prod., as one worthy put it, let's face facts.The current crop of LCAs being churned out at slow speed are modest MIG-21 replacements, yet to mature into a mini M2K, which only the MK-2 promises. Moreover, even this modest bird has its two key items of firang origin, engine and radar.When the basic Kaveri is dead inside its mother's (GTRE's) womb ,the talk of a "Super-Kaveri" for the GTRE is almost as ridiculous as Paki talk of their fighters being " djinn powered"! Attempts are still being made to deliver a living Kaveri with s foreign " implant, let's see if a miracle happens.

However, a pragmatic way forward is clearly available.The LCA Mk-2 requires extensive redesign. Leverage as much stealth into it as an interim objective with as much desi and firang tech available.Remember the " partial stealth" Talwar clas FFGs later morphed into the somewhat similar true stealth P-17 Shivalik clas FFGS, with improved P-17As on the anvil.

The IN is truly up the creek though.There is no desi fighter available for it in the coming decade, let alone the larger 65K carrier! It has only one option but to soldier on for the VikA and IAC-1 with the 29K ( getting Ru to sort out its maintenance glitches), or get the lot replaced progressively with new perfected birds at the OEM's cost if possible (the lift sizes allegedly pose a problem operating available other larger naval fighters).But here lies a problem which was revealed unintentionally in an article I came across.We never included after sales maintenance for the aircraft in the contract it alleged! Our glorious babus.We've seen these poorly negotiated contracts before, just like the CBI's useless FIRs allowing scamsters to walk free.Past time for all future contracts to be technically ( at least) vetted by the services!

The second interim option is pursuance of the stealth UCAV on a "war footing", pardon the odious cliche.A war footing in India to the MOD means going to war with the end- user! Nevertheless, this programme is supposedly somewhere in the air and not a paper project. It will be tasked purely in a stealth role and will hopefully arrive before 2025.It should give us a decent stand-off strike capability apart from its stealth .

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 16 Apr 2018 07:33

Philip ji, PakFa bays will also not be able to fit Brahmos NG.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 16 Apr 2018 09:07

Thakur_B wrote:Philip ji, PakFa bays will also not be able to fit Brahmos NG.

:rotfl:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 16 Apr 2018 09:29

Also, Philip ji, a medium sized F-35 A / C has bay sizes similar to Su-57.

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 16 Apr 2018 11:35

Firstly, not even a single incident of abuse is tolerable, but something regarding the recent SM and MSM noise around Unnao and Kathua and does not add up. Just a gut feeling.

Not to say that the legislative, executive and judiciary have all been terribly slow in addressing the issue.

I will leave this at this. Just noting my sense of unease

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby rajsunder » 18 Apr 2018 01:13

Kartik wrote:Posting some relevant images from an article that dates to October 2017 on the KF-X.

Now for someone to do some such research on the AMCA. Hopefully not most of the usual suspects posing as defence journos in India.

Source: AW&ST

Image

Image

Image

IR, if you want the entire article, please share your email ID.

I think we should partner with South Korea and build our AMCA. This will help us delivering the jet on time.

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby pankajs » 19 Apr 2018 20:45

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7610&p=2262687&hilit=reuters+syndicated#p2262687
pankajs wrote:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-china-tibet/dalai-lama-calls-on-tibetans-to-remain-united-as-india-drifts-toward-china-idUSKBN1H70J3
Dalai Lama calls on Tibetans to remain united as India drifts toward China {Reuters was the source of the most of the recent reports about India bowling down to China. Because their stories are syndicated they appear all over the world.}

My last comments on Reuters being the source of most "India bowing down to China". Retuers seems to have a special love for India. Note the photo and then note the headline accompanying it.

https://twitter.com/sanjeevsanyal/statu ... 2646823937
Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nvishal » 25 Apr 2018 23:52

Tejas should have been based on the MKIs Saturn AL-31 engine

The chinese understood the engine bottleneck during the design phase itself and hence today, the J-10(236 units),the J-11(276 units) and the 30KK(76 units) all use the AL31 engine.

Tejas will need a complete fuselage makeover to accept the AL-31. Our designers fked up.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Apr 2018 00:08

Boss remember the history of LCA. Chinese/ Euros/Russians/ British/French/Americans have all had crashes when developing fighters but 1 crash during development and the LCA programme would have been cancelled
Al31 would have been too much of a risk. Plus the aircraft would not have been light as per aircraft GSQR's. Blame the import lobby.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 26 Apr 2018 00:17

nvishal wrote:Tejas should have been based on the MKIs Saturn AL-31 engine

The chinese understood the engine bottleneck during the design phase itself and hence today, the J-10(236 units),the J-11(276 units) and the 30KK(76 units) all use the AL31 engine.

Tejas will need a complete fuselage makeover to accept the AL-31. Our designers fked up.

And what makes the Al-31 the gold standard? How many single-engined Al-31 planes are there in the world? Why this semi-annual rona-dhona?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 26 Apr 2018 00:18

Dhoti Shivering alert! Please do not feed the troll!!!

nvishal wrote:Tejas should have been based on the MKIs Saturn AL-31 engine

The chinese understood the engine bottleneck during the design phase itself and hence today, the J-10(236 units),the J-11(276 units) and the 30KK(76 units) all use the AL31 engine.

Tejas will need a complete fuselage makeover to accept the AL-31. Our designers fked up.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nvishal » 26 Apr 2018 00:24

disha wrote:Dhoti Shivering alert! Please do not feed the troll!!!

You are the second member here who has expressed having his "dhoti shivered" because of a comment I made.

If a genuine observation scares you, I suggest you pause, turn away and drink a glass of water.

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby disha » 26 Apr 2018 01:40

^^ Of course, I do drink a glass of water, sometimes several. Unlike you, I am not into a kool-aid induced rhetoric.

Maybe you never plug'ed any kind of engine in any kind of body, leave alone a jet engine. I would suggest that you try that first. Before coming here and doing your classic Rona-Dhona.

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby ramana » 29 Apr 2018 04:29

nvishal, please do a comparison of Al 31 and GE404. Dimensions, weight, controls and thrust, sfc. Thanks. Ramana

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Re: Whine Thread-2

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Jun 2018 12:23

JTull wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:The only positive thing is something will come on time.


What time are you talking about? Care to elaborate?
LCH is on schedule, by all accounts. And it will be faster to operationalise due to commonalities with Rudra and Dhruv. Apaches will require completely new logistics and armaments.

I had everything that has not been signed/or buried under MoD files on mind. LCH is on schedule, but pros/and cons of LCH/ALH v/s Apache has been discussed earlier multiple times in that thread.
I initaily wrote that this looks more of a tribute to king trump uno to assuage him for S400 purchase, but then deleted as dint want to take this to whine thread...With the time it has taken to procure anything even under modi govt (perhaps they may not be at fault for this), any addition is welcome


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