International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

Finland has officially signed its F-35 agreement after selecting the a/c last year --
The procurement contracts include the deliveries of 64 multi-role fighters in 2025-30 that represent the F-35A Block 4 configuration, aircraft engines and maintenance equipment, systems, spare parts, replacement equipment, training equipment and servicing needed for use and maintenance. The agreements include F-35 type training for the Defence Forces’ flying and technical personnel.

After the procurement of aircraft and maintenance services, LOA documents will be signed during 2022 on the procurement of air-to-air weapons, the Sidewinder and AMRAAM missiles. In accordance with the procurement proposal submitted to the Government in December 2021, the agreements on procuring air-to-ground and air-to-surface weapons will be made later. This will ensure that the weapon composition can be optimised, for example in terms of the number and types of weapons, so that Finland will have a high-performance F-35 system when entering the 2030s. LINK
Total contracted cost for the 64 F-35, Logistics, offset (production and sustainment) and engine is 8.25 Billion Euro /$9.4 billion
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Dassault might score another win with the Rafale in Iraq.

Iraq seeks French drones and jets, additional Russian tanks
https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... ian-tanks/
11 Feb 2022
For its part, the Iraqi Air Force is seeking French Rafale fighter jets. In September 2021, the chairman of the Security and Defense Committee of Iraq’s parliament, Mohammed Redha al-Haidar, revealed Iraq and Paris signed a contract for the aircraft.
AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 407
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by AkshaySG »

brar_w wrote:Finland has officially signed its F-35 agreement after selecting the a/c last year --

Total contracted cost for the 64 F-35, Logistics, offset (production and sustainment) and engine is 8.25 Billion Euro /$9.4 billion
Contract signed in less than a year after finalizing the A/C
One can only dream about seeing such speed for our acquisitions
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

Finland has shown what a well run foreign hardware acquisition program looks like. They asked for Best and Final Offers from the OEMs or programs bidding for the hardware/offset, weapons etc, and from the governments associated with those offers for sovereign supply guarantees, leaving zero room for post selection negotiation other than negotiating exact delivery slots, and payment terms etc. They also stipulated a price ceiling that could not be exceeded at any cost and had firm requirements on sovereign guarantees, Finland specific capability (example JASSM integration for US products on offer) etc so that none of these are negotiated after selecting a winner to prevent price escalation.

They have been able to sign the paperwork in about sixty days from their selection decision. Probably could have done it sooner had it not been for a need to debrief the other OEM's and wait for any political or legal review of the decision.

https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/05/03 ... -received/
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by ldev »

SpaceX's Starship animation of a Mars trip!! Form Elon Musk's presentation in the last couple of days.

Musk says that when fully operational Starship launch costs will be ~10 MM for the 100 to 150 ton payload. That is $100 per kg to LEO. It will put all other launchers out of business.
vimal
BRFite
Posts: 1902
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by vimal »

^^ Musk is a good salesman and marketer.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

^^ Given how many launches, and booster recoveries they've done, and the payload they've already put into space, he seems to be not bad at the whole space launch thing either.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

Appears Germany has made a decision to buy the F-35A. See tweet below from Thorsten Benner (Global Public Policy Institute, Berlin) citing a news report (clip in the tweet).
Germany to buy F-35 jets to replace aging Tornado fleet participating in nuclear sharing, BILD reports. Decision expected by Easter.
Important signal to NATO allies that Scholz & defense minister Lambrecht are now speeding up decision that had long been dragged out mostly by SPD.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Congratulations to Germany :)
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

The Indonesians really know how to say thank you :lol:

https://twitter.com/FrenchHist/status/1 ... ziz2Dh4cAA ---> A gift from Indonesia Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto to Minister of the Armed Forces Florence Parly, after the sale of 42 Rafale jets.

Image
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:Appears Germany has made a decision to buy the F-35A. See tweet below from Thorsten Benner (Global Public Policy Institute, Berlin) citing a news report (clip in the tweet).
Germany to buy F-35 jets to replace aging Tornado fleet participating in nuclear sharing, BILD reports. Decision expected by Easter.
Important signal to NATO allies that Scholz & defense minister Lambrecht are now speeding up decision that had long been dragged out mostly by SPD.
The Bild article cited in the tweet states that a minimum of 35 to 40 F-35s will be needed. So that would appear to be a direct replacement for the 30 F-18 Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers the previous Government had contemplated buying. And so the German Air Force plan to replace the remainder of the retiring Tornado numbers with 55 latest tranche Eurofighters looks unchanged. Can one infer that they view the F-35 ECM/ECCM capability as an adequate replacement for what the Growlers would have brought to the table? It would seem to be so given a virtually similar Finnish F-35 purchase decision.

Also, in the case of both the Eurofighter as well as the Tornado, Germany, Italy and the UK were partner nations. So French apprehension that the Germans could abandon FCAS and jump ship to the Tempest isn't without some justification :)
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

France has direct control over preventing Germany from jumping ship to the Tempest. Only reason they would do it is if their industry feels like it isn't getting a proportional share in the development and production work. I don't think Germany has any incentive to leave. France has all the incentive in the world to go it alone so I don't think the problem of France fearing German backing out is big concern for either side. The fear in France is that Germany will order the F-35 and its future decisions would water down their involvement in FCAS which could risk the project as it advances to its most expensive phase towards the end of the decade and into early 2030s. Once they've farmed out work to industry and national teams, it becomes very expensive to break that up and start from scratch. More Typhoons or Super Hornet is less of a threat because it still leaves the German Air Force without a stealthy aircraft thus having them invested in the program (which future politicians in Germany would have to give some consideration even if they don't care much for what their service leaders have to say). So the fear is very much that Germany buys the F-35, stays in the FCAS, and then loses interest and waters down its investment and because they have 5th gen capability that would be fairly new in the early 2030s, the French side does not have the German Air Force that puts pressure on its civilian leadership to acquire this capability. That and France fears the F-35 taking over most European air forces (French defense minister has singled out the F-35 in the past) given that 500-800 F-35's will likely be eventually deployed in Europe on a permanent basis (by mid 2030s) which is more than pretty much any single European designed and built fighter.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:France has direct control over preventing Germany from jumping ship to the Tempest. Only reason they would do it is if their industry feels like it isn't getting a proportional share in the development and production work. I don't think Germany has any incentive to leave. France has all the incentive in the world to go it alone so I don't think the problem of France fearing German backing out is big concern for either side. The fear in France is that Germany will order the F-35 and its future decisions would water down their involvement in FCAS which could risk the project as it advances to its most expensive phase towards the end of the decade and into early 2030s. Once they've farmed out work to industry and national teams, it becomes very expensive to break that up and start from scratch.
I would say that while from a technical standpoint the French are capable or at least think that they are capable of going it alone, the development costs and "guaranteed" sales that are inherent in a partner structure would want them from having the Germans abandon ship. I was reading somewhere that ballpark figures for FCAS development are in the Euro 80-100 billion range which would be a steep amount for France acting alone. And if subsequent sales volumes are not that large, then pricing will be extremely high as is the case with French products historically. That is why the Plan B that Eric Trappier spoke off but did not elaborate on could involve a purely financial partner with the potential for guaranteed sales.

Also, AFAIK, the current agreement allows Germany a veto over exports to "undesirable" nations where human rights etc. are of concern to Germany which France is unhappy about. In terms of work share, France would like German technicians to work at French suppliers i.e. Dassault, Safran, Thales etc. but the IP for the development would vest solely with France which is not acceptable to Germany.

So let's see where this goes.....
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

One of the consequences of going it alone on the Rafale is the cost that the French AF and the military has had to pay across other competencies where they've had to shed capability, delay recapitalization, or reduce strength to pay for the autonomy of having their own combat aircraft program. Strategic airlift, munition inventories, unmanned aerial vehicles, air and missile defense etc etc. On a percentage of budget basis, France paid multiples of what the USAF paid to acquire its F-22 capability and that program was considered a waste for a post cold war environment and promptly cancelled the moment it ran up against other budget priorities. So there is good reason to partner with a larger economic power like Germany as it allows Dassualt, and the French to invest in other capabilities which would have to compete for investment with FCAS investment in an event they are left to carry the entire cost of the project. It also gets them assured market in Europe where the Rafale has struggled to pick up wins. Technically, Dassault can absolutely deliver a 5.5 generation fighter by 2040 but ideally, France would like a partner to carry the cost, and to get some assured sales. It helps create the family of systems that the program would need and would allow France to invest in other core military capabilities which would otherwise have to give way to the FCAS priorities given the nature of Dassault ( a smallish company and the only combat aircraft OE in France) and its strategic importance. The economic cost sharing, and assured market access isn't a trivial matter. Despite recent successes, the entire French combat fighter aircraft output currently stands at approximately 2 aircraft a month and is exclusively the Rafale. That's a rather fragile industrial base that can do very well with an assured market of the size of the German economy. So France has reason to be hard on Germany to keep them in and will try to do it. But they haven't worked well as a team in past recent projects, and would probably prefer to go it alone if it meant that the program would have to be curtailed, delayed, or otherwise put on risk on account of German politicians.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

Rare dual JSOW carriage configuration on Greek F-16's. LINK

Image

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Chinmay wrote:Twitter link

Indonesia orders 42 Rafales
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/149 ... zWLgnifk_w ---> The latest customer of Rafale, Indonesia will have to wait till 2026 for first delivery. Greek MoD clears procurement procedure of additional 6, delivery by 2024.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Why a Franco-German Fighter Jet Is a Bad Idea
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/02/15/fr ... ast-sales/
15 Feb 2022
Paris would be rewarded with greater profits and fewer headaches by going it alone.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/AirbusDefence/statu ... BCXYTOU1Vw ---> Airbus has launched a drone from a flying A-400M for the first time. Demonstrating this feasibility is a key step towards the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

Future Combat Air System: A400M clears the first hurdle as a Remote Carrier launcher
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/news ... te-carrier
21 Feb 2022
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... t9L303B3cQ ---> IAI delivers first F-16 Wing & Vertical Fin to Lockheed Martin for new F-16 Block 70/72's...following the reopening of the F-16 wing assembly line at IAI.

Image

Image
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by kit »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defe ... r-aircraft

The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is to acquire advanced jet trainer aircraft from China, under a deal announced by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on 23 February.

The deal signed between the MoD and China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) will see the UAE Air Force and Air Defence (AFAD) receive 12 AVIC Jiangxi Hongdu Aviation Industry L-15 aircraft, with options for a further 36 to follow.

of course stating the obvious., where was HAL SPORT or Tejas ?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:of course stating the obvious., where was HAL SPORT or Tejas ?[/color]
PRC has commenced induction of the L-15 into the PLAAF. There is support in the host nation's air force.

Why has the IAF not supported the Tejas SPORT? That is the question to ask.
AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 407
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by AkshaySG »

kit wrote:
of course stating the obvious., where was HAL SPORT or Tejas ?
Hard to sell a trainer when your own country isn't actively using it or even has a clear road map to start using it.

Until IAF starts using SPORT/LIFT as their trainer it is unlikely HAL will be able to convince other nations to be the first to do so.

Besides China can probably deliver those 12 trainers in a couple of years if not less, We right now are still awaiting to build the trainers from the IOC Tejas
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by V_Raman »

We all are talking about Tejas as though they are being produced in loads. Mk1A has not flown yet. Let the production begin and then we can think about SPORT, exports ityadi...
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by NRao »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 62913----->
Korea Aerospace Industries (#KAI) is on track to conduct the 1st flight of its KF-21 multirole fighter aircraft, buoyed by the completed development of the platform's new AESA radar.

The KF-21's first flight is scheduled for July 2022.
https://janes.com/defence-news/air-plat ... -milestone

Image
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by SaiK »

The Legion Pod uses the infrared spectrum to conduct precision targeting missions in areas which might have a high degree of “jamming” by an enemy.

what’s called “frequency hopping,” a technology used to ensure radio frequency (RF)-reliant targeting systems can succeed in a “jamming” environment wherein an enemy is specifically attempting to interfere with the signals. Enabled by sensors and advanced computing, frequency hopping technology allows an RF system to recognize a jammed or cluttered frequency and simply switch to another that is unencumbered by interference.

The Pentagon and military services are working on new levels of artificial intelligence-enabled technology able to track, identify, and help “deconflict” the electromagnetic spectrum, in part to help distinguish blocked or jammed areas from those without interference.

The Legion Pod is now operational on the F-15C Eagle and, according to an Air Force report, it could be integrated onto the F-15EX and F-16 Fighting Falcon. https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... aches-ioc/
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by ldev »

France will be very happy with Germany's pledge to increase defence spending dramatically because the implications are that even if Germany buys F-35s, funds will still be available for FCAS development :lol: It will no longer may an either or situation for Germany.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Vayutuvan »

SaiK wrote:The Legion Pod uses the infrared spectrum to conduct precision targeting missions in areas which might have a high degree of “jamming” by an enemy.
SaiK gaaru, welcome back. Longtime no see.
Shameek
BRFite
Posts: 911
Joined: 02 Jan 2009 20:44
Location: Ionosphere

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Shameek »

AN-225 most probably destroyed in the attack on the Antonov airfield.

Image

Link
viveks
BRFite
Posts: 341
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 06:01

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by viveks »

KF-21 looks so much like the F-22 Rapter. Not very imaginative of them.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Who Will Get The UAE's Mirage 2000-9 Fighters?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/ ... 5af99a623b
28 Feb 2022
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Vips »

viveks wrote:KF-21 looks so much like the F-22 Rapter. Not very imaginative of them.
Do does the Turkish TFX.
arvin
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by arvin »

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia ... VCkeoZ6Iiy
Russia is halting deliveries of rocket engines to the U.S., but the space-launch company owned by Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp. has said it has enough of those motors in hand for upcoming missions.
...
A spokeswoman for the joint venture said that it has the necessary RD-180 engines to complete space missions on the Atlas V for current customers. Those engines are stored at a factory in Decatur, Ala., she said.

“We have agreements for technical support and spares, but if that support is not available, we will still be able to safely and successfully fly out our Atlas program,” she said. United Launch expects to continue using Atlas until at least 2024, she added.
Such a sweet feeling to read this news. Many years ago in the nineties, US had meddled to halt cryogenic engines to India.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

A case of quitting before you're about to get fired. The decision to wean away from Russian engines was taken years ago and the Vulcan is that for ULA. Between that and Space X they have all the launch supply they need for any national security needs.
arvin
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by arvin »

They have time till 2024 to get Vulcan ready till existing stock of RD 180 for Atlas-V runs out.
But Antares -1 uses RD-181, so they may have to find replacement for that.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

That doesn't support national security missions. Space X will more than happily fill any void for either the security needs, or NASA needs. They have the capacity to execute, on average, a launch a week now and can always make room in the out years if there are any delays at ULA.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by ldev »

Germany to buy 35 Lockheed F-35 fighter jets from U.S. amid Ukraine crisis

And just like that Germany has made a decision to buy the F-35. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has certainly concentrated German defence spending priorities like nothing before. The EW component of the acquisition will stay with the yet to be developed Eurofighter EW variant. Bad news for Boeing. And notwithstanding German assurances to the contrary, France is still on tenterhooks about future German funding for the FCAS jv.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Turkey looks to buy eighty Eurofighter Typhoons
https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2022/0 ... phoon.html
12 March 2022
pravula
BRFite
Posts: 360
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 05:01

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by pravula »

viveks wrote:KF-21 looks so much like the F-22 Rapter. Not very imaginative of them.
Imagination for imagination's sake..... :roll:
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by brar_w »

^^^ The German reversal on the F-35 was being talked about even prior to the Russia-Ukraine war. The current hike in defense spending is likely to revive older German-US cooperation in systems particularly around air-defense, and ground combat equipment. Also, it finally gives them the financial buffer to stay in FCAS while still buying the F-35 and latest variant of the EF Typhoon (as long as France wants them there).
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

Post by ldev »

And it looks like Canada, the last of the NATO laggards (after Germany) in defense spending has got the message:

Canada's defense minister to set 'aggressive' defense spending options

Defence minister says she's considering 'aggressive options' to increase Canada's military spending
The increased spending will include work to modernize NORAD and efforts to strengthen Canada's presence in the Arctic, Anand said.
Last edited by ldev on 17 Mar 2022 23:53, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply