Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 23 Feb 2018 18:34

Now Tejas future looks more bright with SEF out of competition, and double engine birds also getting in, this will lead nowhere.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Feb 2018 19:57

Kersi wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
There are planes that are not vulnerable to 7.62 rounds?? Apart from the A-10 that is.
Maybe MiG 27

AFIK, Jaguars have bullet-proof glass. MiG-27s have some armor plates that can be attached to the sides of the cockpit on the outside.

A modern fighter plane being shot down by a 7.62 round is quite laughable

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 Feb 2018 21:27

Yagnasri wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/967015256995352577

Looks like few 414s are already here waiting for Mk2.

As per news that came out of AeroIndia 2017, 2 engines were already delivered by then and six more were scheduled for delivery by the dnd of the year. So ADA should have 8 engines by now.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Feb 2018 22:51

srai wrote:
Kersi wrote:
Maybe MiG 27
AFIK, Jaguars have bullet-proof glass. MiG-27s have some armor plates that can be attached to the sides of the cockpit on the outside.

A modern fighter plane being shot down by a 7.62 round is quite laughable

Aren’t canopies of supersonic aircraft bullet proof already?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2018 01:17

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/967018626875363328 ---> Indigenization is the only way in which India can prevent itself from being caught on the wrong foot due to geopolitical shifts. Which is why the Tejas program must assume top priority.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/967065652166053888 ---> There is no point in talking about being a capability oriented military , if that capability is acquired via imports. Then you remain a threat based military without independent capability.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Feb 2018 01:49

It was/is 2+6 engines for Mk2

GE supplies two test engines for Tejas Mk-2, eyes collaboration for AMCA
http://wap.business-standard.com/articl ... 120_1.html

Followed by 120.

So, V&V : 120 + 6 .. we are talking trashing the SEF no matter #of injuns for MMRCA.

Breap request: pl keep that thread locked till Mk2 shows up safely.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2018 03:14

Please until the Mk1A starts rolling out don't post Mk2 news here.
Thanks.

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 24 Feb 2018 06:47

ramana wrote:Please until the Mk1A starts rolling out don't post Mk2 news here.
Thanks.

Then where should one track evolution of Mk2?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Feb 2018 21:48

The way I hear things are moving, MK2 will be a DRDO affair

Anything ADA wants to do is being pointed to a DRDO lab.

In other news, my KB have practically moved on. 'Bloodsucking Private Enterprise' can't wait forever for anything you see? We have other exciting things to do anyway.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2018 21:56

Thanks for the news..
Ananth, Please start a new thread for Tejas Mk2
That we track the info separately and not get lost here.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Feb 2018 06:30

Dileep wrote:The way I hear things are moving, MK2 will be a DRDO affair Anything ADA wants to do is being pointed to a DRDO lab.

In other news, my KB have practically moved on. 'Bloodsucking Private Enterprise' can't wait forever for anything you see? We have other exciting things to do anyway.

DRDO affair meaning led by the ADA? Wasn't that how it was always meant to be? Or are you saying that other labs are also going to be engaged more widely?

HAL proposed the Mk1A primarily because it changed some of the avionics systems and LRUs and their placement to better meet IAF needs, but didn't modify the OML of aircraft, which would've entailed an all new set of design, CFD and wind tunnel tests.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 25 Feb 2018 07:32

^^Yes, it always was 'supposed to be'. ADA was 'supposed to be' a co-ordination agency between all the govt and private entities. But what actually happened was, they ended up doing a lot of work on their own. They got a world class successful product to show for that.

That is being de-constructed now.

We work with a number of DRDO labs. I am concerned.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Feb 2018 07:47

I couldn't care less about what ADA was meant to be. Fact is they have always been dependent on DRDO for most of the heavy lifting and if finally, some common sense has come in to the powers that be, to move non core activities out of ADA into DRDO labs, then that is a good thing.

DARE does mission computers and EW.

ADA went and started its own MC team. HAL did the same. This sort of duplication is hardly helpful.

ADE did flight control but it was then split between NAL and HAL as well along with ADE. Almost all the subcomponents in the LCA are either from DRDO or HAL and it is to ADA's (dis) credit that they didnt work with private industry and DRDO enough to indigenize LRUs for which competence already existed within India.

ADA was meant to be a world class project management organization.

Instead they are a jack of all trades and have their fingers in all sorts of pies where they should have walked away from, while keeping their focus on important things. AVM Rajkumar mentions till he joined ADA didn't even have a plan in place to test the MMR, and he initiated the Hack with CABS.

For all the good ADA has done, it must also be understood they have not exactly really managed project handling that well.

I'd rather they focused on that, and high-level design plus production engineering and moved sub-system designs to DRDO labs.

Being concerned about the DRDO labs is all very well, but somehow they keep churning out products which are getting accepted by the services while ADA has to focus on delivering the definitive LCA and meet user requirements.

Just look at the RCI-DRDL cluster and their speed of development versus the two steps forward one step backward dance ADA-HAL combine have managed so far. The lack of synergy is evident.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Feb 2018 08:43

^^^

Given that DRDO restructured itself into seven technology clusters around 4-years ago (http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/ind ... chclus.jsp) to streamline efforts, ADA (as well as HAL and other private firms) would need to work with various clusters as needed. That change seems to be taking place.

Primarily, they would work with DRDO Aerospace cluster, which comprises of the following labs:

Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Bangalore
Aerial Delivery Research & Development Establishment (ADRDE), Agra
Centre for Air Borne Systems (CABS), Bangalore
Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore
Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore
Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), Bangalore

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Feb 2018 08:58

ramana wrote:Thanks for the news..
Ananth, Please start a new thread for Tejas Mk2
That we track the info separately and not get lost here.

Should we rename this thread as Mk1 and Mk1A then?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Feb 2018 09:35

I think we are done with Mk1. No?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Feb 2018 09:53

Not until FOC atleast

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Feb 2018 09:53

Then there’ll be improvements and achievements etc

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 25 Feb 2018 10:10

A different thread for Mk II is warranted now. Let’s build the body of knowledge and some spill over positive vibes for Mk II.

Will Srai ji take the mantle of starting and manicuring the new Mk II thread?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 25 Feb 2018 19:20

MK II will practically be a new plane with same wings as MK I. But are we there that it warrants a new thread? A place like India, where secrets are kept in sieves, I would be astound if MK II has made any progress than chai biscuit discussion (or else we would have heard). If they indeed kept it under wraps and MK II is ready for HSTT, desh badal raha hai!!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Feb 2018 21:16

Is there any clarity on the WVRAAM situation for the Tejas? Have the flutter issues with the Python-5 been solved or will we be going for the ASRAAM?

What missile type is the No.45 squadron training with/for?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Feb 2018 01:17

fanne wrote:MK II will practically be a new plane with same wings as MK I. But are we there that it warrants a new thread? A place like India, where secrets are kept in sieves, I would be astound if MK II has made any progress than chai biscuit discussion (or else we would have heard). If they indeed kept it under wraps and MK II is ready for HSTT, desh badal raha hai!!

It's nowhere near being ready for HSTT. Neither is the Mk1A. Please keep realistic expectations.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Feb 2018 10:22

Viv S wrote:Is there any clarity on the WVRAAM situation for the Tejas? Have the flutter issues with the Python-5 been solved or will we be going for the ASRAAM?

What missile type is the No.45 squadron training with/for?

R-73

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Feb 2018 11:29

Just a data point to be added to the existing list being maintained for Tejas LSP and SP first flights, source is Tejas.gov.in

SP-5- Tejas SP-5 completed its maiden flight from HAL Airport in Bengaluru on 9th Feb 2018 piloted by Gp. Capt. KK Venugopal (Retd).

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 26 Feb 2018 14:36

---del----

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Feb 2018 15:03

"Great Expectations".The title of Dickens' classic novel could very well be the title of the history of Tejas.Notwithstanding the effort put in thus far by those concerned, we havd yet to master MK-1 production, test the 1A and haven't even seen a mock-up of the MK-2.Thus as a member has well put it, let's be realistic.But what the decision to scrap the SEF has achieved is to leave the field wife open for Tejas to storm through provided HAL/ADA get their act together.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 26 Feb 2018 18:00

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pralay · Post by **pralay** » 26 Feb 2018 18:16

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Will · Post by **Will** » 26 Feb 2018 18:24

—-del—-

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 26 Feb 2018 20:17

Philip wrote:"Great Expectations".The title of Dickens' classic novel could very well be the title of the history of Tejas.Notwithstanding the effort put in thus far by those concerned, we havd yet to master MK-1 production, test the 1A and haven't even seen a mock-up of the MK-2.Thus as a member has well put it, let's be realistic.But what the decision to scrap the SEF has achieved is to leave the field wife open for Tejas to storm through provided HAL/ADA get their act together.

Actually - "Great expectations" should be the label of the trillions in man and machine invested by successive GOIs in purchase of maintenance intensive and low up time Russian systems purchased to date - be it ships, submarines, aircraft or tanks. The modus operandi of the armed forces to combat the poor up-times has been to buy in larger numbers so that a minimum is available when needed.

[deleted]

You cannot master production of anything by producing 20-100 units. HAL, DRDO have delivered a platform that can form the backbone of IAF for years to come. Compared to the Mig-21, this is a far more capable aircraft and deserving to be bought in numbers.

MOD Note : This kind of langauge would not be tolerated. User is warned. Quoted post would also be edited to remove objectionable content. -JayS

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Feb 2018 23:42

Vivek K wrote: *Deleted*

Nose cone was a well understood engineering issue with high signal losses in the original nosecone. ADA itself decided to go for Cobham radome. Why are you blatantly lying IAF caused delay? Care to elaborate what supposed delay did IAF cause wrt nosecone?

....
[Edited]

Tsarkar Sir IMHO, the radome blame has to be shared by IAF and ADA equally. As a customer if you are buying(and going to maintain eventually) a product that is in making do you not ask for the specs/KPIs of all the subsystems ? I ahve done this with my subsystem suppliers and keep track of the requirements and commitments. The fact is IAF was never invested in the program until 2008/9 and then started looking at this with one eye with the hope that they will get shiny Rafales. OTOH, ADA should have presented the numbers/KPIs and asked for customer feedback, may be they got feedback pointing towards improving the range or may be they didnt, we dont know, but both of them are to be blamed for the radome stuff. Similar things happened with flight envelope(ITR/STR) etc. You can possibly say that they were in the GSQR but the GSQR was written in 1983/4 and any sane engineering manager on the customer side/development side would want these to be revised to get a product out.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Feb 2018 23:46

Action taken.
Continue...

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 27 Feb 2018 11:09

Vivek K wrote:
Philip wrote:"Great Expectations".The title of Dickens' classic novel could very well be the title of the history of Tejas.Notwithstanding the effort put in thus far by those concerned, we havd yet to master MK-1 production, test the 1A and haven't even seen a mock-up of the MK-2.Thus as a member has well put it, let's be realistic.But what the decision to scrap the SEF has achieved is to leave the field wife open for Tejas to storm through provided HAL/ADA get their act together.
Actually - "Great expectations" should be the label of the trillions in man and machine invested by successive GOIs in purchase of maintenance intensive and low up time Russian systems purchased to date - be it ships, submarines, aircraft or tanks. The modus operandi of the armed forces to combat the poor up-times has been to buy in larger numbers so that a minimum is available when needed.

[deleted]

You cannot master production of anything by producing 20-100 units. HAL, DRDO have delivered a platform that can form the backbone of IAF for years to come. Compared to the Mig-21, this is a far more capable aircraft and deserving to be bought in numbers.

MOD Note : This kind of langauge would not be tolerated. User is warned. Quoted post would also be edited to remove objectionable content. -JayS

Well that is your prerogative. It is objectionable to defend Indian pride but not a objectionable when Indian pride is crushed day in day out - this has been happening for decades now.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 27 Feb 2018 11:13

tsarkar wrote: Nose cone was a well understood engineering issue with high signal losses in the original nosecone. ADA itself decided to go for Cobham radome. Why are you blatantly lying IAF caused delay? Care to elaborate what supposed delay did IAF cause wrt nosecone?

Nose cone problems were identified and solutions found. The delivery of the nose cone was delayed well beyond normal delays. Did the nose cone have to hold anything up? It was understood what improvements would result.

tsarkar wrote:Regarding IFR, it is being done concurrently well within the timelines for the FOC software being developed, tested and certified.

How may refuellers does the IAF have? How many are serviceable at a given time. Would such an extremely limited resource be reserved for strikers or point defence aircraft? So why does FOC have to wait for IFR?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 27 Feb 2018 11:39

From Tarmak007's FB post ...

Hot refueling on Tejas successful

(Unedited release)

Inching close to Final Operational Clearance (FOC), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited carried out a hot refueling on indigenous Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas followed by a sortie at HAL airport, Bengaluru yesterday. The system performance during the refueling session was in-line with design requirements and was satisfactory.
In the history of IAF aircraft, LCA will be the first aircraft to fly with this unique capability of hot refueling and HAL has successfully demonstrated this on LCA Tejas LSP8 aircraft.
Hot Refueling is a single point pressure refueling of the aircraft with the engine in operation. It is a process by which a fighter aircraft is refueled (in between sorties) while its engine is in operation, thereby cutting down the refueling time by half and turn-around time significantly. This capability is highly desired in combat situation which basically puts aside the need for the pilot to park the aircraft, power down and exit the cockpit for refueling to begin.
Further, with this, a major requirement of LCA Air Force Mk.1A has been achieved.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Feb 2018 12:24

Tejas LSP-8 with IFR probe during hot refueling test

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 27 Feb 2018 13:22

^^
Hot refuelling picture with engine intake covered and engine shut down. No hot air flow on tail pipe either!

Mango log key liyay chalta hai.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 27 Feb 2018 13:38

Yeah, it does not add up. Maybe that intake cover is a mesh for safety. But then the obvious question is how did they put the mesh on with engine lit and hight intake suction?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Feb 2018 14:14

I am not sure that pic with the mesh on is the Hot refueling, it probably is a dated pic of LSP 8 with the Fuel probe.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 27 Feb 2018 14:20

Pilot is in the cockpit.

This capability is highly desired in combat situation which basically puts aside the need for the pilot to park the aircraft, power down and exit the cockpit for refueling to begin.