Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63090
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 01 Jul 2018 09:27

the hanger looks capable of housing a few blackjacks. great scale.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3209
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jul 2018 09:41

So what happens to f404 based tejas if caatsa sanctions go through?

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7833
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 01 Jul 2018 11:10

Let's wait and see.

The Democratic party will take Indo us relations back to pre 1998 era.

We may just need a round of Shakti to sort things out.

Or Kaveri will have to be worked out.

habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6325
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby habal » 01 Jul 2018 11:53

Cain Marko wrote:So what happens to f404 based tejas if caatsa sanctions go through?


2 years which they spent dilly-dallying over kaveri flight tests will now come to bite them in the back.

Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 01 Jul 2018 12:29

Sanctions might be good for Tejas. Indians are their best in the face of adversity. If sanctions on engine come through, we might see Kaveri getting certified within a couple of years.
Or the entire program might just crash and burn. But hey, optimism, right?

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1270
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Jul 2018 13:30

^^wouldnt the loss for GE be substantial? GE would have provided india engines for LCA/AMCA, that's close to 1500 engines (300 LCA +200 AMCA roughly)*3 engines for lifetime. That is not penny change even for a company like GE

Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 01 Jul 2018 13:33

^Yes but if Trump makes them choose, they will always choose America over India. Iran had a 20 billion dollars worth deal with Boeing, that didn't stop Trump from sanctioning Iran. I doubt a jet engine deal will change minds.

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1930
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Jul 2018 14:08

It's got nothing to do with choice. If they continue dealing with sanctioned countries they are breaking the law and can face criminal actions hence they don't do it. That's also the reason why waivers for sanctions are provided so that their companies are not affected by the rule they are applying for the rest of the world.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2287
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby darshhan » 01 Jul 2018 15:09

Cain Marko wrote:So what happens to f404 based tejas if caatsa sanctions go through?


Do you really have to ask a question to understand what will happen to tejas program if we are sanctioned?

But anyways the answer is that we will have to defeat and destroy our military enemies(pakis and/or chinese) in the next war without Tejas. That is what we should be preparing for.

Plus since we lack in conventional weaponry due to our various procurement flaws and inefficiency, we will have to evolve our war fighting doctrine to include proactive usage of nukes against enemy targets.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2287
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby darshhan » 01 Jul 2018 15:14

I would like to add one another point.

If we are sactioned for no mistake of ours and just to satisfy the whims and fantasies of the American deep state, then it actually frees us to resume nuclear testing. So I would say Bring it on.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35883
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 01 Jul 2018 20:19

It is an important question that merits a separate thread.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2641
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 01 Jul 2018 20:46

Trikaal wrote:^Yes but if Trump makes them choose, they will always choose America over India. Iran had a 20 billion dollars worth deal with Boeing, that didn't stop Trump from sanctioning Iran. I doubt a jet engine deal will change minds.


America seems to have a secret deal with Saudi for many times the amount !

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3209
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jul 2018 22:29

Hmm an order of extra Rafale is likely. The way I'm reading it, France has helped get the kaveri to a certain point...82kgf AB thrust, which they know won't be enough , so the next iteration will include use of m88 core and 90kn thrust, for which more Rafale will be demanded.

Hope it is that straightforward.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35883
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 01 Jul 2018 22:56

All roads lead to GTRE.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1319
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 02 Jul 2018 02:38

I like rainy weather, bring on the dark clouds

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2250
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 02 Jul 2018 03:29

They will have to find a way by give and take, any sanctions on India beyond token face saving ones would have very serious consequences for US’s pivot and plans to cage the dragon begore it grows too big to handle.

Sanctioning a global pariahs like Iran, a nobody like Syria or a perennial enemy like Russia is quite different than today’s vibrant India.

If it does happen unfortunately Tejas would be a goner. it’ll take too long, may be a decade or more, to get a new engine certified and IAF can’t wait that long for a light 4th gen aircraft.

My prediction is that US would provide a waiver after squeezing a pint or two from Indian cellar

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2641
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 02 Jul 2018 04:24

Cain Marko wrote:So what happens to f404 based tejas if caatsa sanctions go through?


The snecma M88 is a close fit and indeed the initial Rafales were powered by F404 before they switched to snecma

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4619
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 02 Jul 2018 06:59

kit wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:So what happens to f404 based tejas if caatsa sanctions go through?


The snecma M88 is a close fit and indeed the initial Rafales were powered by F404 before they switched to snecma



Certifying anything for usage on an aircraft takes years when following the western aerospace certification methodology. I can't imagine how long it would take to certify another engine on the Tejas. It would take too long for the AF to wait.

If F404/414 engine deliveries were stopped, it would destroy the Tejas program.

However it would also ensure that never again would India trust delivery of ANY equipment from the US. That would include planes both civilian and military, power generation equipment, telecom equipment, industrial machinery.. etc. Great efforts would be made to switch to sources other than the US even if the item costed more and wasn't the best. The risk factor of cut offs and sanctions would simply be too great to depend on anything from that country.

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5238
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 02 Jul 2018 07:46

I welcome the sanctions on all counts. Citizen->Jingo->Businessman->Enthusiast. On all counts!

100% selfish onlee :) Neither myself nor the KB is dependent on unkil anymore. Baguette replaced Bagel for quite some time onlee.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6210
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nachiket » 02 Jul 2018 08:12

One thing to note is that if CAATSA sanctions kill the Tejas program (till we can get the Kaveri ready) it will also kill any chances of both its erstwhile foreign competitors (MII SEF program or whatever that boondoggle is called now) F-16 and Gripen getting into the IAF as well. And there is no other single engine light fighter available anywhere unless we want to approach the pakis for the JF-17.

IAF will be screwed. On the plus side maybe we will then see billions poured into the Kaveri program with everyone from PM down taking a personal interest in its progress with whips ready to be cracked.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 939
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 02 Jul 2018 08:59

Singha wrote:the hanger looks capable of housing a few blackjacks. great scale.


Google aerial photo shows 3 such hangars... wonder what's the plan here, production?


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2018 09:40

yensoy wrote:
Singha wrote:the hanger looks capable of housing a few blackjacks. great scale.
Google aerial photo shows 3 such hangars... wonder what's the plan here, production?

From the article above....
The new hangars that have come up can accommodate 40-60 Tejas fighters at any given point of time.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 939
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 02 Jul 2018 09:46

Rakesh wrote:
yensoy wrote:Google aerial photo shows 3 such hangars... wonder what's the plan here, production?

From the article above....
The new hangars that have come up can accommodate 40-60 Tejas fighters at any given point of time.


Missed that, thanks!

I'm still not sure of the long term plan here. Tejas doesn't have the range to be effective from a Southern air base. I can understand one or at most two squadrons located here for training, testing/refinement of the aircraft, and to cover SL; but the aircraft as currently configured doesn't have the legs to make a round-trip to any hotspot - Western/Northern/Eastern border or Maldives. Also in response to an earlier poster, IAF chief in the past has ruled out possibility of using air power against internal LWE.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2018 09:50

Sulur will serve as the main hub for the Tejas. All the base infrastructure is being set up here, like the massive hangars. It will likely serve as a model for future Tejas air bases around the country. I do not think the base is meant to serve any other purpose.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6210
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nachiket » 02 Jul 2018 09:53

yensoy wrote:I'm still not sure of the long term plan here. Tejas doesn't have the range to be effective from a Southern air base. I can understand one or at most two squadrons located here for training, testing/refinement of the aircraft, and to cover SL; but the aircraft as currently configured doesn't have the legs to make a round-trip to any hotspot - Western/Northern/Eastern border or Maldives. Also in response to an earlier poster, IAF chief in the past has ruled out possibility of using air power against internal LWE.

The fighters will be moved to forward bases during wartime, as per the requirement. Just like for other squadrons in the IAF.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2018 10:17

nachiket wrote:One thing to note is that if CAATSA sanctions kill the Tejas program (till we can get the Kaveri ready) it will also kill any chances of both its erstwhile foreign competitors (MII SEF program or whatever that boondoggle is called now) F-16 and Gripen getting into the IAF as well. And there is no other single engine light fighter available anywhere unless we want to approach the pakis for the JF-17.

If CAATSA sanctions come into effect for India, the Rafale will be the only plane left to buy. F-16 and F-18 will be done. The Gripen will be done due to the GE F414 engine. The Eurofighter Typhoon will not come as all the 4 nations in the Eurofighter consortium are American poodles, with the UK being the most obliging poodle of all. The IAF wants nothing to do with the MiG-35 and that will leave only the Rafale. If sanctions do come, the US Govt will have shot themselves in the foot for the third time in a row, in its quest to supply fighter aircraft for the IAF.

nachiket wrote:IAF will be screwed. On the plus side maybe we will then see billions poured into the Kaveri program with everyone from PM down taking a personal interest in its progress with whips ready to be cracked.

+108!! Aap ke muh mein ghee shakhar!!!

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9773
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jul 2018 10:55

Rakesh wrote:Sulur will serve as the main hub for the Tejas. All the base infrastructure is being set up here, like the massive hangars. It will likely serve as a model for future Tejas air bases around the country. I do not think the base is meant to serve any other purpose.


Maldives, SL, IOR region, gives IAF a presence.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35883
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Jul 2018 12:54

^^RE: Sulur

2 more points:
In addition to the hangars, an engine test bed for Tejas is up and running.
We also have a Doppler Weather Radar facility too in place now.

...
and for the google earth, the base shames CBE intl. airport! :wink:

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby souravB » 02 Jul 2018 15:42

Aditya_V wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Sulur will serve as the main hub for the Tejas. All the base infrastructure is being set up here, like the massive hangars. It will likely serve as a model for future Tejas air bases around the country. I do not think the base is meant to serve any other purpose.


Maldives, SL, IOR region, gives IAF a presence.

+ IAF might have a plan to develop it as Nellis AF base as a combined base for peace time upkeeping, maintainance and training for different squadrons.
Also can host Naval air squadrons like Edwards base if needed which improves interoperability during peace time.
if that is the plan, I'd like to see 1 with Army Aviation branch and another with Navy. it will work wonders to our interoperability and peace time training and logistics of maintainace.
Jingo's wet dream though. :rotfl:

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1056
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby dinesha » 02 Jul 2018 15:54

India’s aviation industry: In need of a new model and leadership
A combination of absent political vision and direction, combined with insipid project-management, has thwarted most of our aeronautical programmes, writes Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd) for South Asia Monitor.
https://southasiamonitor.org/news/india ... p/sl/27516

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35883
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Jul 2018 16:04

BTW, the article never mentioned about HAS.. if we are going to house 4 squads in just about the same coordinates ..we ought to be keeping them more safer. No?

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1930
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bala Vignesh » 02 Jul 2018 16:59

SaiK saab,

The only thing that can hit them there is a missile, cruise or ballistic. Which means that the war is already on or has been pre-empted. These aircraft would have been disbursed to various frontline bases by then as part of defensive posturing.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2641
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 02 Jul 2018 17:43

Aditya_V wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Sulur will serve as the main hub for the Tejas. All the base infrastructure is being set up here, like the massive hangars. It will likely serve as a model for future Tejas air bases around the country. I do not think the base is meant to serve any other purpose.


Maldives, SL, IOR region, gives IAF a presence.


a huge base could likely mean spec ops base as well ..

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35883
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Jul 2018 23:48

bala vignesh, the possibilities are still open. I'd have to think we don't have the capability to detect type94 launch but only have no time to put all our assets on air, or already on a deep-strike mission. you'd be as WAG as me

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jul 2018 09:43

Denied information on high-tech fighter jet equipment, India develops its own
https://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/d ... IezAJ.html

Vinod Karar with the head-up display, designed by CSIR-CSIO, in Chandigarh

Image

Any gaming aficionado would love it: A space age fighter jet cockpit with information on weapons locking systems, enemy planes and flight information flashing on the windshield. This high-tech system is likely to be adapted soon for fighter aircraft in India with technology developed indigenously. The head-up display (HUD) has been developed by the Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) in Chandigarh, a constituent unit of the Council of Scientific & Industrial Research (CSIR). The technology, which CSIO started developing from scratch after the UK,USA, France and Israel declined to share it with India, was first adapted for the indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas, says director, CSIO, Prof RK Sinha. Now, a plot display unit (PDU) similar to HUD is being developed for BAE Systems Hawk, a British single-engine, jet-powered advanced trainer aircraft under licence manufacturing in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). A helmet mounted display for fighter aircraft and gun sight (enabling aiming of a gun accurately) for Dornier aircraft are also in the pipeline. Dr Vinod Karar, chief scientist, optical devices and systems, heading the development of the PDU for the Hawk-i aircraft, said the CSIO was developing a customised low-profile unit.

Explaining why the technology developed for Tejas had an edge over its global competitors, he said it had multiple operational modes, including low visibility and standby sight mode if a mission computer failed to guide and aid the pilot, high display brightness, high contrast ratio with maximum display luminance, high degree of accuracy and precision, wide field of view and no forced air cooling or internal fan for the heat generated in the system, resulting in reduction in cockpit noise for improved pilot comfort. A total of 68 such HUDs have been produced by CSIO Chandigarh and Bharat Electronics Limited, Panchkula. “Since the HUD is the prime flight display viewed by the pilot from his or her seat, its technology was denied to India. Hence, CSIO made its design and customised it to multiple aircraft platforms, in the process achieving design excellence, bringing India on the select list of countries who can design and manufacture the complex technology of HUD,” said the CSIO director. The indigenous HUD is cheaper by Rs 40 lakh when compared to offerings by others. HUD variants had been developed for LCA Tejas for both the Indian Air Force and Navy and other aircraft. “Our design offers compact size, low weight and power consumption,” Prof Sinha added.

Understanding head-up display

Flying a fighter aircraft at supersonic speeds is no easy task. Unlike conventional cockpits with traditional styled analog dials which diverted a pilot’s attention as he had to take his eyes off the skies to monitor flight information, the glass cockpit eases his workload by providing flight, aircraft and weapon information in his line of sight. The windshield glass has a unique coating with material or combination of materials so as to reflect green wavelength, to which human eyes are most sensitive, while allowing a clear view ahead.

Other technologies being developed

Gunsight for Dornier aircraft: CSIO is also developing a customised gunsight used for accurately aiming a weapon, for surveying and for sight setting on a particular range.

Helmet mounted display for fighter aircraft: The helmet mounted display is an advanced version of head-up display. It projects critical flight and aircraft information for the pilot through the helmet visor. Its proposed features and advantages include high off boresight (aligning barrel of a firearm with sight) capability for fighter aircraft, first-look, first-shoot, air-to-air visualisation, improvement in pilot situational awareness, faster target acquisition and improved system accuracy and less exposure time and better sensor cueing. CSIO is developing the technology in collaboration with a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7833
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 04 Jul 2018 11:17

Long time coming and a huge achievement.

Tejas commences operations from Sulur Air Force Station
https://m.tribuneindia.com/article/teja ... 613953/amp

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4619
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 04 Jul 2018 11:24

If you squint your eyes.. and use your imagination..
you can just about see what a twin engined & twin vertical stabilizer Tejas would look like
in this photo.

Image

nits
BRFite
Posts: 889
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nits » 04 Jul 2018 15:33

it will be a beauty to watch for sure... AMCA needs to be reality soon



Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JayS, prat.patel, Shakthi and 41 guests