Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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chetak
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 17 Jul 2018 17:09

chola wrote:
chetak wrote:
this is a canned and hackneyed response. It says nothing, means nothing.

Get a system in place, we deserve one at least after 50-60 years of license raj looting.


One correction Saar, the license raj has been looting for around 260 years.




I clean forgot our white skinned friends and self styled benefactors.

I stand corrected.

Thank you, Saar.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 17 Jul 2018 19:13

chetak wrote:
chola wrote:
One correction Saar, the license raj has been looting for around 260 years.




I clean forgot our white skinned friends and self styled benefactors.

I stand corrected.

Thank you, Saar.


This firangi system with all its red tape, labyrinth of rules, legalese and of course staffed by battalions of babus was the White Man’s Burden — imposed on us!

Maybe this is not the right thread. I agree we need a more modern and efficient system in place but how do you change this without a revolution? Too many mouths are being fed at the till.

Unfortunately, the most feasible answer might be “just pay HAL at whatever price” so at least we keep the funds inhouse. If we don’t pay HAL, we lose our investment anyways. Make your investment stick. It is too late to decline the end product over price now.

The wild card in this is how much of the 463 crores is going outside for firangi parts. Depending on the percentage, I might change my tune on accepting the HAL’s price.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 17 Jul 2018 20:06

This is the painful truth.Many of our "desi" wares have considerable firang baggage. ut by the time we put all the pieces together we find the cost skyrocketing in comparislon with an outright buy.
Perhaps the answer lies in JVs like BMos, B-8, etc. for some requirements incrementally progressing with successes like the ALH and LCH.The desi arty developments by the OFB with the desi improved Bofors and pvt. sector arty developed too with some firang help is another winner.

Coming back to Tejas, the MOD needs to examine the programme with a fine toothcomb and find out where it has gone wrong on costs and how the same can be rectified.It beggars the imagination that a desi built LCA
costs more than a desi built MKI.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 17 Jul 2018 23:00

Neshant wrote:The massive opportunity costs of destroying the local aerospace R&D base by importing foreign planes should also be factored in.

Huge outflows of foreign exchange to finance the R&D of foreign scientists and engineers whom worked on the plane at the expense of local ones should be calculated when a comparison is made.

That is by far the most damaging part in dollar terms.



This was true of Congress ecosystem.
It takes money to run political parties and public doesn't believe in public finance of such parties.
Gradually political parties became family fiefdoms.

Any way lets see the MoD report on the pricing structure of Tejas Mk1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby jpremnath » 17 Jul 2018 23:49

EVen if it costs more, it is going from one pocket of govt to another..And creates value addition, expertise and knowledge base...At the same time saving valuable foreign exchange...The MoD should just go ahead and stop cribbing...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 18 Jul 2018 00:37

Philip wrote:This is the painful truth.Many of our "desi" wares have considerable firang baggage.

Less baggage than an all firang ware which is 100% firang. It is pity that you belittle the efforts of those things which got done using the things that did not get done. For example, composite technologies developed for Tejas has helped in missiles and ISRO rockets. Technology developed for ground radars went into AEWACs and finally is now feeding into fighter radars. How many world class second and third tier manufacturers have we developed in the process of bringing up Tejas?

I wish I could speak in public about how the NAvy pilots risk their lives every time they go up on the Mig-29Ks the Russians gave us. I am not exaggerating. That plane does not have the structural strength to undertake carrier landings day in and day out. Why don't I see you ever speak about that?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 18 Jul 2018 01:01

Indranil wrote:
Philip wrote:This is the painful truth.Many of our "desi" wares have considerable firang baggage.

Less baggage than an all firang ware which is 100% firang. It is pity that you belittle the efforts of those things which got done using the things that did not get done. For example, composite technologies developed for Tejas has helped in missiles and ISRO rockets. Technology developed for ground radars went into AEWACs and finally is now feeding into fighter radars. How many world class second and third tier manufacturers have we developed in the process of bringing up Tejas?

I wish I could speak in public about how the NAvy pilots risk their lives every time they go up on the Mig-29Ks the Russians gave us. I am not exaggerating. That plane does not have the structural strength to undertake carrier landings day in and day out. Why don't I see you ever speak about that?


But the Navy has spoken about this publicly. When they said the MiG-29K needs to be “ruggedized” and the plane needs to be “recalibrated” after each landing, even a layman can understand how dangerous the situation. Nobody wants to get in car that gets “recalibrated” every time it goes out never mind a carrier plane. It is why they went after the 57 new carrier planes. No?

It is just that people are unable to see a way out of the situation, especially with the Vikrant also tied to the 29K.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Surya » 18 Jul 2018 03:28

Indranil wrote:I wish I could speak in public about how the NAvy pilots risk their lives every time they go up on the Mig-29Ks the Russians gave us. I am not exaggerating. That plane does not have the structural strength to undertake carrier landings day in and day out. Why don't I see you ever speak about that?

Because it requires some basic grasp of reality vs brochures and articles

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 18 Jul 2018 04:49

chola wrote:But the Navy has spoken about this publicly. When they said the MiG-29K needs to be “ruggedized” and the plane needs to be “recalibrated” after each landing, even a layman can understand how dangerous the situation. Nobody wants to get in car that gets “recalibrated” every time it goes out never mind a carrier plane. It is why they went after the 57 new carrier planes. No?

It is just that people are unable to see a way out of the situation, especially with the Vikrant also tied to the 29K.

It is actually a pity. The Mig-29s are such beautiful flying machines. I mean each thing on the Mig-29K is beautiful and elegant. And by beauty I mean both visually and functionally. But the Mikoyan Design Bureau is basically washing its hands off ruggedizing the machine enough.It is understandable, how many more Mig-29Ks will they build to amortize this cost.

IN is asking ADA to help out based on its knowledge of LCA Navy. There is no doubt in anybody's mind (except for the DDM reporters who get their lifafas) the LCA NAvy program has to continue for us to produce a meaningful naval fighter of tomorrow. NAMCA would fall on anybody's lap. IN knows this, and that is why I respect IN so much. They put the money where their mouth is.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 18 Jul 2018 06:12

Indranil wrote:It is actually a pity. The Mig-29s are such beautiful flying machines. I mean each thing on the Mig-29K is beautiful and elegant. And by beauty I mean both visually and functionally. But the Mikoyan Design Bureau is basically washing its hands off ruggedizing the machine enough.It is understandable, how many more Mig-29Ks will they build to amortize this cost.

IN is asking ADA to help out based on its knowledge of LCA Navy. There is no doubt in anybody's mind (except for the DDM reporters who get their lifafas) the LCA NAvy program has to continue for us to produce a meaningful naval fighter of tomorrow. NAMCA would fall on anybody's lap. IN knows this, and that is why I respect IN so much. They put the money where their mouth is.

Thank you, Indranil ji, for that explanation. That actually makes me feel better in that at least the Navy is attempting to do something about it.

I had a sinking feeling when the calibration story broke. Made worse by the lifts on the Vikrant. But it seems the Navy will remedy the situation one way or another. The silver lining is ADA and the Navy working together.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 18 Jul 2018 07:46

I've often said , check my posts please, that MIG is obligated to correct defects and if need be replace the lot.However, how the deal was sealed and defect liabilities mentioned, penalties, etc. ,which was drafted and done by the MOD and not the services remains an unknown.Even if poorly drafted to look after Indian interests, MIG's moral liability and reputation should ensure their cooperation in rectifying whatever the problems are.Poor drafting in the Scorpene deal too has cosg us dearly both in time and money.
Regarding the birds, at the last major exercise they appeared to be fine, unless there is more open info.

Coming back to Tejas, a bird that flys with a firang engine, firang radar and mostly firang weaponry but costs several times more than a bought out bird makes little common sense.You don't see the Europeans all wanting to build their own birds individually.As long as support, spares, etc. are factored in and the price is right, they buy their birds from the major OEMs.Take the case of Japan and SoKo too.All their frontline birds ard American not local.Israel too despite its hugr sources of funding from across the globe and US German U-boats at huge discounts,etc.They realised the difficulty of going it alond and sold the Lavi design to the Chins.

Our industrial and tech basd in aviation is decades behind the firang majors.We can't even produce a fighter engine after almost 40 years.Putting together bits and pieces from the parts bin of the majors is working out far more dxpensivd ghan we thought.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 18 Jul 2018 08:14

Philip wrote:I've often said , check my posts please, that MIG is obligated to correct defects and if need be replace the lot.However, how the deal was sealed and defect liabilities mentioned, penalties, etc. ,which was drafted and done by the MOD and not the services remains an unknown.Even if poorly drafted to look after Indian interests, MIG's moral liability and reputation should ensure their cooperation in rectifying whatever the problems are.Poor drafting in the Scorpene deal too has cosg us dearly both in time and money.
Regarding the birds, at the last major exercise they appeared to be fine, unless there is more open info.

Coming back to Tejas, a bird that flys with a firang engine, firang radar and mostly firang weaponry but costs several times more than a bought out bird makes little common sense.You don't see the Europeans all wanting to build their own birds individually.As long as support, spares, etc. are factored in and the price is right, they buy their birds from the major OEMs.Take the case of Japan and SoKo too.All their frontline birds ard American not local.Israel too despite its hugr sources of funding from across the globe and US German U-boats at huge discounts,etc.They realised the difficulty of going it alond and sold the Lavi design to the Chins.

Our industrial and tech basd in aviation is decades behind the firang majors.We can't even produce a fighter engine after almost 40 years.Putting together bits and pieces from the parts bin of the majors is working out far more dxpensivd ghan we thought.


Are you suggesting that the Navy prefers risking its pilots and flying a sub-par performing plane to asking a legally and morally 'obligated' MIG to make changes? Why exactly? Do you think they are corrupt, stupid or just shy?

Regarding Tejas, then what is your suggestion? Shelve Tejas completely and buy what? Mig 35 or Su 35? And after another 40 years do you want us to again buy a Mig or a Sukhoi next? Why not clearly mention your preferred solutions to the problems you mention?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jul 2018 08:17

In non of the Posts you will actually see Philip calling for troubleshooting and finding out problems so that they can be solved.

All his posts have a single theme, hoi we are obliged to Russia and how we suck. Regardless or the thread. Regardless of the context.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 18 Jul 2018 08:26

All I see is him making ambiguous and disparaging statements. He makes them in such a way to force the reader to come to his preferred solutions without explicitly stating them. That's why I am asking him to come clean about where exactly he stands. Let him categorically state whether he wants Tejas program shut down and which exact aircraft he wants us to buy without beating around the bush.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2018 09:11

Folks, Enough Lets Move On! ELMO

No fratricide.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jul 2018 09:47

Philip wrote:Coming back to Tejas, a bird that flys with a firang engine, firang radar and mostly firang weaponry but costs several times more than a bought out bird makes little common sense.You don't see the Europeans all wanting to build their own birds individually.As long as support, spares, etc. are factored in and the price is right, they buy their birds from the major OEMs.Take the case of Japan and SoKo too.All their frontline birds ard American not local.Israel too despite its hugr sources of funding from across the globe and US German U-boats at huge discounts,etc.They realised the difficulty of going it alond and sold the Lavi design to the Chins.

Our industrial and tech basd in aviation is decades behind the firang majors.We can't even produce a fighter engine after almost 40 years.Putting together bits and pieces from the parts bin of the majors is working out far more dxpensivd ghan we thought.

Philip sir, speaking for myself
1. It costs more, but quite a bit stays in India, and helps our R&D base move up. I would rather buy expensive khadi for some days rather than Louis Vitton for simple reason because I have to keep my country running too. You may argue that LV is coming out cheaper than Khadi but in the long run this will pay off. If cost benefit analysis was the only thing, then neither humanity would have reached space, nor Normandy would have happened. Sometimes you have to flush the cost argument in gutter.
2. Spares wares will be factored in but they can be sanctioned given that all foreign majors would know their usage patterns. Uttam will come sooner or later and so will kaveri.
3. Israelies realized it and sold it, but Israel does not have and will not have as diverse threat and a huge AF as large as India and the US jewish lobby ensures that for next 100 years US can't be sanctioned by either Democrats or republicans. The day they see it, you will see the blueprints of F135 etc being picked up and flown to Tel Aviv. Jewish blood and money will be found thicker than oil. One can not compare India with UK, Soko or even Japan.
4. Yes are decades if not centuries behind western nations. But if we dont ever start we will be behind forever. Anyways we are not fighting any western power anytime soon near Europe or US. Our AF are primarily tasked to defend against Xina and Napakis, for them whatever we have and Tejas will be more than enough. Anyways with <2% def budget we dont seem to be in hurry to go out and fight them either. If there's a wait then let's wait for our desi fighter, EVEN IF IT IS EXPENSIVE THAN SU 30 or even F22. For we dont know is apple compared to orange or watermelon or to with our kat-hal.

There are issues there are gaps with Tejas, but I would be fine to live with that and IAF to join the party rather than always clamouring for import (not saying it does)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jul 2018 10:14

MoD plans standard price lists for public sector undertakings
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... s-for.html

A senior defence ministry official says DPSUs and OFs could soon be ordered to make public a price list of the equipment and weaponry they build. They would be required to hold those prices for a specified period and then raise them only by a reasonable amount.

If the military demands a deviation from the baseline standard that the DPSU or OF has priced, the cost of delivering that deviation would be added to the standard price.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 18 Jul 2018 11:45

ArjunPandit wrote:
Philip wrote:Coming back to Tejas, a bird that flys with a firang engine, firang radar and mostly firang weaponry but costs several times more than a bought out bird makes little common sense.You don't see the Europeans all wanting to build their own birds individually.As long as support, spares, etc. are factored in and the price is right, they buy their birds from the major OEMs.Take the case of Japan and SoKo too.All their frontline birds ard American not local.Israel too despite its hugr sources of funding from across the globe and US German U-boats at huge discounts,etc.They realised the difficulty of going it alond and sold the Lavi design to the Chins.

Our industrial and tech basd in aviation is decades behind the firang majors.We can't even produce a fighter engine after almost 40 years.Putting together bits and pieces from the parts bin of the majors is working out far more dxpensivd ghan we thought.

Philip sir, speaking for myself
1. It costs more, but quite a bit stays in India, and helps our R&D base move up. I would rather buy expensive khadi for some days rather than Louis Vitton for simple reason because I have to keep my country running too. You may argue that LV is coming out cheaper than Khadi but in the long run this will pay off. If cost benefit analysis was the only thing, then neither humanity would have reached space, nor Normandy would have happened. Sometimes you have to flush the cost argument in gutter.
2. Spares wares will be factored in but they can be sanctioned given that all foreign majors would know their usage patterns. Uttam will come sooner or later and so will kaveri.
3. Israelies realized it and sold it, but Israel does not have and will not have as diverse threat and a huge AF as large as India and the US jewish lobby ensures that for next 100 years US can't be sanctioned by either Democrats or republicans. The day they see it, you will see the blueprints of F135 etc being picked up and flown to Tel Aviv. Jewish blood and money will be found thicker than oil. One can not compare India with UK, Soko or even Japan.
4. Yes are decades if not centuries behind western nations. But if we dont ever start we will be behind forever. Anyways we are not fighting any western power anytime soon near Europe or US. Our AF are primarily tasked to defend against Xina and Napakis, for them whatever we have and Tejas will be more than enough. Anyways with <2% def budget we dont seem to be in hurry to go out and fight them either. If there's a wait then let's wait for our desi fighter, EVEN IF IT IS EXPENSIVE THAN SU 30 or even F22. For we dont know is apple compared to orange or watermelon or to with our kat-hal.

There are issues there are gaps with Tejas, but I would be fine to live with that and IAF to join the party rather than always clamouring for import (not saying it does)


Its the IAF and others like them who have to bear the brunt (usually fatal) and pay heavily for the dubious privilege of "supporting" local industry. The IAF doesn't clamor for imports, it argues hard for the right tools to do the job without being made to pay a too heavy price in terms of lives. Its the baboo(n)s and the politicos who decide on the imports. The IN didn't really want the MiG 27K, so how come they are saddled with it??

Exactly what is your stake in this as written below?? Writing from the comfort of a La Z Boy, in an airconditioned room is all very well but you don't have an actual dog in the fight.

There are issues there are gaps with Tejas, but I would be fine to live with that and IAF to join the party rather than always clamouring for import (not saying it does)


Put yourself in their shoes, why should they be the only ones to compromise?? What about all the others in this MIC and vital supply chain?? their role and responsibilities ?? Why not ask for accountability from them first??

If you ask the Forces to do a difficult job, why should they not ask for the required tools??

All this gyan of money staying in India and let us pay any price as long as the money stays in India is just not acceptable. There is a huge difference between corruption and honest backbreaking enterprise. If the heat is too much, then simply let them get out of the kitchen.

First of all, provide a fair, just and equal opportunity playing field where technical ability, adherence to specified quality, agreed on delivery schedules and reliability is valued.

Let the investments come from the private players. If each of them claims and clamors for "govt assistance" for setting up "infrastructure" then what is the actual difference between a PSU and an assisted private player?? They are both eating into the taxpayer's money.

Some of the "demands" of these so called large private players are not only absurd but downright nauseating.

The IAF has its role and responsibilities as does the GoI. Let us look for a happy middle of the road solution that causes the least amount of disruption instead of asking the IAF to lump it, while all the others concentrate on "keeping the money in India".

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 Jul 2018 11:58

^^ Ok, guys request you to stop the side discussion.

Mod note: Gents, this is the LCA Mk1. and Mk1A news and discussions thread. Not a thread for general discussions on worries, warts, there are other threads for that.

All folks please exercise restraint & wait for the actual news on the platforms.

Please stick to the mandate of the thread. Further thread diversions will be deleted - please cooperate.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby jaysimha » 18 Jul 2018 13:13

dated article,,, posting for records.
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/2015_issue3 ... issue3.pdf

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 18 Jul 2018 21:35

Another thing that needs to be factored into costs are the number of crashes, malfunctions and time spent doing maintenence and repairs in the hangar. Also the cost of parts replacement including the engine and how often that needs to be done.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 19 Jul 2018 00:56

chetak wrote:
RKumar wrote:Last OT from my side on this topic ...

PSU/DRDO/Govt organization == there working class are common people like you and me.

It is always easy to blame neighbor or teacher or neta or babu or employee not doing a decent job. In the end, all these are from our own community, as a nation - everyone needs to help other to get better but we the experts of leg pulling.


this is a canned and hackneyed response. It says nothing, means nothing.

Get a system in place, we deserve one at least after 50-60 years of license raj looting.


This means everything. Its not canned or hackneyed. Systems are in place - upon us to use it for what they should be used for. Of course systems also need to evolve.

Anyway, cost management is always good idea. Wrings out inefficiencies. Hopefully money saved goes into buying more Mk1s, Mk1As, and foreign components makers can also be squeezed. Saw bunch of tweets from Raksha Mantri on use of indigenous components by HAL etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 19 Jul 2018 04:50

Rishi_Tri wrote:
chetak wrote:
this is a canned and hackneyed response. It says nothing, means nothing.

Get a system in place, we deserve one at least after 50-60 years of license raj looting.


This means everything. Its not canned or hackneyed. Systems are in place - upon us to use it for what they should be used for. Of course systems also need to evolve.

Anyway, cost management is always good idea. Wrings out inefficiencies. Hopefully money saved goes into buying more Mk1s, Mk1As, and foreign components makers can also be squeezed. Saw bunch of tweets from Raksha Mantri on use of indigenous components by HAL etc.


twitter

During the last 3 years out of total 168 contracts, 106 have been signed with Indian vendors for procurement of defence equipment such as Helicopters, Radar, Ballistic Helmets, Artillery Guns, Simulators, Missiles, Bullet Proof Jackets, Electronic Fuzes, and ammunition

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 19 Jul 2018 05:00

I've often said , check my posts please, that MIG is obligated to correct defects and if need be replace the lot.
Even if poorly drafted to look after Indian interests, MIG's moral liability and reputation should ensure their cooperation in rectifying whatever the problems are.


I think we must never wait for the Russian moral compass to help us out after our own incompetence at drafting documents properly puts us in a pickle.
I shall now wait and see how much we cry and wail at the sh1t quality of spares and service for the
1. GlobeMaster
2. Chinhooks
3. Apaches
4. Poisedons

If the same Mig-29 pattern follows with the list above then I will kill the babus responsible for drafting these documents.
If not then I would get rid of the babus who draft the Russian agreements.
If the babus are the same and we get excellent quality from Amreekan warez then I would continually seek to take my money elsewhere.

Really , we are waiting for the moral compass of the Mig bureau to help us out.
Where has this moral compass been since the first crash of the Mig-21 in India?
Are you blind or just paid really well by your masters, filipov ?

Coming back to Tejas, a bird that flys with a firang engine, firang radar and mostly firang weaponry but costs several times more than a bought out bird makes little common sense.You don't see the Europeans all wanting to build their own birds individually.As long as support, spares, etc. are factored in and the price is right, they buy their birds from the major OEMs.Take the case of Japan and SoKo too.All their frontline birds ard American not local.Israel too despite its hugr sources of funding from across the globe and US German U-boats at huge discounts,etc.They realised the difficulty of going it alond and sold the Lavi design to the Chins.



2018 - UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet to replace Typhoon
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/16/uk-tempest-fighter-jet-typhoon-farnborough-airshow
The country that is going under the biggest economic and political stress of this decade aka BREXIT just unveiled their 6th Gen fighter.

Japan built the F2 after completely revamping the F-16 design.

RoKO is going their own way by the way of their golden eagle something something.

Turkey has headed that way.

China builds their own.

Hell even Russia, a sometime European country builds their own aircrafts.

Stop showing lack of confidence in India or resign from this forum.

Our industrial and tech basd in aviation is decades behind the firang majors.We can't even produce a fighter engine after almost 40 years.Putting together bits and pieces from the parts bin of the majors is working out far more dxpensivd ghan we thought.


Again, lies.
We did not start building Tejas 40 years ago.
40 years ago Marut was still flying you _ _ _ _ (yes I want to swear at you)

Honestly you suck , and you tire people on this forum who come to discuss and promote ideas for India, by india so that they become of India.

your theme is
Russia
Russia
Russia
Mig
Russia
Flanker
Russia

stop it Phillip. Pull your head in.
You don't have anything useful to contribute I believe.

Remember, only break the silence if your words are more beautiful than silence and right now with the ire you are picking up from everyone.
Its abundantly clear, its not.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 19 Jul 2018 07:11

Larger and more frequent orders is the only way to reduce the prices in long term. 20+20+83 is not big enough to expect F16 type economy of scale.

Still a jump from Rs 162 corer to Rs 400 corer seems crazy!! I guess HAL is learning from the best in the business ——-Russia

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 19 Jul 2018 07:30

Katare wrote:Larger and more frequent orders is the only way to reduce the prices in long term. 20+20+83 is not big enough to expect F16 type economy of scale.

Still a jump from Rs 162 corer to Rs 400 corer seems crazy!! I guess HAL is learning from the best in the business ——-Russia


But the Russians do it to other countries, though. Pretty sure Putin doesn’t not allow the Russian MIC to gouge the VVS.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby A Deshmukh » 19 Jul 2018 11:26

The cost will increase depending on the # of imported components.
- AESA Radars
- AA missiles.
- Radome
Mk1A price will not be in the same range of Mk1.
But 400cr seems on the higher side.
particularly when HAL did not spend anything on the design.
That cost was borne by ADA and MoD separately.
ADA should charge HAL some amount as Design fees.

Lets wait for the MoD report on the costing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 19 Jul 2018 12:41

The fact that the LCA has not experienced a single crash in it's entire development cycle suggests the developers have a good understanding of it's functioning. It is a quality product.

I predict it will have the lowest crash record of any fighter in the IAF fleet despite being single engine.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 19 Jul 2018 19:51

What are the main changes besides AESA radar in place of a mechanical one?

Some maintenance improvements, a EW suit and a self protection jammer. How can this list ( + whatever else there is) can add almost 2X of the entire mk1 cost.

Mk1 = Rs 160 corer
Mk1a = mk1 + upgrades
Mk1a= Rs 400 corer
400 corer= Rs 160 corer + upgrades
Upgrades= Rs 240 corer
Upgrades = 1.5 mk1
Hence Upgrade cost = absurd looting

IAF can buy additional 124 mk1 or total (207+40= 247 mk1) for the same amount of money.

Even after accounting for the R&D cost and inflation it doesn’t add up. Most of the integration would be done by OEM and these require no structural ir major layout changes so what gives.

I don’t think the missiles and other ordinances would be included in HAL contract. IAF builds it’s own bases, hangers and depots so why HAL is trying to shoot itself in the head.

Karan or IR may have better understanding of wtf is going on here. I personally think the DDM is doong what it does best.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2018 20:25

Katare, The engine price could be higher due to escalation and rupee devaluation vis a vis $.
also I don't think HAL supplies the weapons.
Bharat Karnad wrote he thinks HAL is charging 30% overhead on every item outsourced.


BTW price for the Mk1A is Rs.463 crores.
So knock off 30% = 463*0.7 = 324 crores.

Now last batch of 20 Mk1 was priced at 363 crores each !!!

We need to look at the HAL prices like an accountant.
Then we can perform technical evaluation of the price proposal.

At outset looks like big padding is done.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 20 Jul 2018 01:58

Katare wrote:What are the main changes besides AESA radar in place of a mechanical one?

Some maintenance improvements, a EW suit and a self protection jammer. How can this list ( + whatever else there is) can add almost 2X of the entire mk1 cost.

Mk1 = Rs 160 corer
Mk1a = mk1 + upgrades
Mk1a= Rs 400 corer
400 corer= Rs 160 corer + upgrades
Upgrades= Rs 240 corer
Upgrades = 1.5 mk1
Hence Upgrade cost = absurd looting

IAF can buy additional 124 mk1 or total (207+40= 247 mk1) for the same amount of money.

Even after accounting for the R&D cost and inflation it doesn’t add up. Most of the integration would be done by OEM and these require no structural ir major layout changes so what gives.

I don’t think the missiles and other ordinances would be included in HAL contract. IAF builds it’s own bases, hangers and depots so why HAL is trying to shoot itself in the head.

Karan or IR may have better understanding of wtf is going on here. I personally think the DDM is doong what it does best.


I would just suggest that we not go into things that are not fully understood or clear. No one here knows what is included in the cost quoted by HAL. Certainly DDM doesn't. We don't even know if that is the program cost inclusive of the R&D for the Mk1A variant (remember it is a HAL specific variant and not ADA developed) or just fly-away cost. We don't know what items are included in that, how many spares, how many spare engines, how much for support and so on. It will also likely include costs for tooling changes that pertain to differences between Mk1 and Mk1A. Remember, nothing comes free. the IAF needs to understand that it cannot sit there and ask for the moon and not expect that to have a cost implication. Development costs money, and in the Mk1A's case, the import of certain avionics is certain to have driven up costs.

This topic needs to be let go of. MoD and HAL will have to figure out what it is that they should charge to allow HAL to make a nominal profit without charging their primary customer too high a price. But I won't go by some unknown MoD source who is giving a certain price for the Tejas Mk1A and then comparing it with what F-16 and Gripen were offered for. Those prices were certainly not program costs, but rather fly-away prices. We've seen enough of these recent FMS deals to know how much a late model F-16 goes for. And now Slovakia said the F-16 Block 70 was cheaper than what the Gripen was offered for. So easily $100 million plus each.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 20 Jul 2018 04:09

^^ +108!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srin » 20 Jul 2018 09:50

Without knowing the facts first hand, I'm going guess and say this is more of accounting amortization.Look at the AESA RFP - even if the 2052 costs say $5m per unit (I'm pulling the numbers out of my musharraf here), there is the setting up of manufacturing, platform/avionics/EW integration, radome design, cost of "TOT" (even if it means they give us their quick start guide :lol: ) and ability to adapt it to any aircraft of HAL. These will cost serious amount of money and it is possible HAL has included all of this in the unit cost. It is also possible that similar items may be true for say the AAMs like Derby and ASRAAM ? (though I haven't read about the local manufacture).

Also, second thing - this is not a case of money moving from one pocket to another - not strictly. HAL is a public company and public and institutions are minority shareholders and entitled to dividends. So, these accounting methods matter to the MoD as a whole.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 20 Jul 2018 13:36

POOF

No more discussions of any other weapon system on this Tejas thread. I will start handing bans now if there is any other discussion in this thread.Any discussions on non Tejas issues will be deleted

Moderator

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Austin » 21 Jul 2018 10:22

Debunking Some False Arguments about the LCA Tejas

Is the Indian Air Force LCA "Tejas" a national humiliation and a failure?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 21 Jul 2018 18:40

So the performance stats of aircraft , some 3 to 4 decades since they first arrived, and tested half a decade ago is good enough for the IAF who however want multiple improvements of the LCA before buying more.
This is a bizarre situation.Surely in the last 5 years there have been major advances in fighter aircraft performance, and how do you evaluate them or compare them, by brochureitis? If you recollect, the aircraft when tried in high alt tests had a few failures.These same aircraft which were rejected are back in the ring again by whay yardstick? Are we going to overturn those results by a paper assurance?

The pressure to sideline Tejas is in full swing.Instead of focussing on improved production with extra lines even in the pvt. sector which is beinv touted by some firang OEMs for their legacy birds.
Last edited by suryag on 22 Jul 2018 04:07, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: warning issued

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 22 Jul 2018 03:23

............
Last edited by suryag on 22 Jul 2018 04:08, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: reply to a personal attack

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby A Deshmukh » 22 Jul 2018 11:10

Austin wrote:Debunking Some False Arguments about the LCA Tejas

Is the Indian Air Force LCA "Tejas" a national humiliation and a failure?


++1.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 23 Jul 2018 04:19

A Deshmukh wrote:
Austin wrote:Debunking Some False Arguments about the LCA Tejas

Is the Indian Air Force LCA "Tejas" a national humiliation and a failure?


++1.


Wonderful read.
Great distillation.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2018 06:45

IAF knows all these facts yet there is pushback.
First it was the plane, then HAL production capability, and now it's price.
GOI owns HAL so what's the real problem?
It goes from.one account to another.
Why this charade?
Meantime it's IAF only that suffers from lack.of planes.


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