Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Oct 2018 21:29

Tarmak posted this image of SP-11

Beautiful bird!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Oct 2018 21:32

Go HAL, make jingos happy!!

IR was this the news that you were hiding???? May be there is more to come??

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2018 22:49

excellent news. I truly enjoy updating page 1 of this thread.

Keep the good work!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2018 23:07

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1050069042248081408 ---> Plenty of 'concurrent engineering' has gone on even with respect to the IOC batch production for the Tejas MK-I. It's not simple 'build to print' for HAL. That is exactly what happens when you look to produce homegrown stuff for the first time & leave license production behind.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Oct 2018 23:29

:I hope that HAL produces 12 LCA this year & admins can ban me for being an anti HAL troll. 2 flown, 10 to go.

prat.patel · Post by **prat.patel** » 10 Oct 2018 23:40

I think IR said 6 is more realistic. And officially 8 was the target for this FY.
doing 12 would actually mean overachieving!

If that happens then we all BRF members should host a get together and mandatory lungi dance to be performed by all !

Nevertheless - Extremely happy to see SP-11 in air.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 10 Oct 2018 23:51

prat.patel wrote:I think IR said 6 is more realistic. And officially 8 was the target for this FY.
doing 12 would actually mean overachieving!
If that happens then we all BRF members should host a get together and mandatory lungi dance to be performed by all !

Nevertheless - Extremely happy to see SP-11 in air.

IR said 7 for this FY. means SP10-SP16 by March 19.

Officially, target of HAL was 12 for this FY.

But it was always something not possible, as FOC hasn't yet confirmed, how can HAL deliver SP21.

SP17-SP20 are trainers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2018 00:20

Indranil, I think Gyan should be banned for a week on his own request.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 11 Oct 2018 00:44

sorry to pitch in with very simplistic thinking, esp after maitya's lovely post.

The three things i take from the current production rate are
1. things are improving, although HAL is behind the production
2. IAF will take as many Tejas (Mk1, MK1A) as can be built (I think it was IR who said this long time back). Basically, The production line will not sit idle
3. Prodcution rates will hit a sqdn an year at some point in future, may not be this or next year, but it will, as IAF/GoI and all other stakeholders are fully behind it
4. The hot air balloon of MMRCA 2.X seems to be dying with increasing production rates (though still not been fully bursted)
5. Tejas Mk2 will fly for IAF/IN and in good numbers. Overall ~500 no.s might get built up (over the entire lifetime)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Oct 2018 00:49

ramana wrote:Indranil, I think Gyan should be banned for a week on his own request.

I agree

prat.patel · Post by **prat.patel** » 11 Oct 2018 01:04

ashishvikas wrote: IR said 7 for this FY. means SP10-SP16 by March 19.

Officially, target of HAL was 12 for this FY.

But it was always something not possible, as FOC hasn't yet confirmed, how can HAL deliver SP21.

SP17-SP20 are trainers.

Oh; yes.
Thanks for clarifying.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 11 Oct 2018 01:43

Rakesh wrote:excellent news. I truly enjoy updating page 1 of this thread.

Keep the good work!

he he I knew you would be doing that.
GO GO GO HAL !!

Yeh Dil Mange More !!

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 11 Oct 2018 02:21

Katare wrote:Go HAL, make jingos happy!!

IR was this the news that you were hiding???? May be there is more to come??

IR can not escape so easily. The word "envelop" was used.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2018 02:50

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Indranil, I think Gyan should be banned for a week on his own request.
I agree

OK. Let me clarify.
- The Tejas by design is very demanding plane that needs flawless manufacturing skill due to the unstable dynamics.
- We know HAL is still in learning curve mode of the Tejas as
- the configuration is not frozen and
- most likely many parts have waivers from the design as is to be expected in the first few aircraft.
- Those circuit card assemblies could have soldering issues etc and need a lot of care
So HAL rushing to pump them pout of the factory line is recipe for a looming disaster.
one crash will bring out the multiple kris to stab the program to death.

So let them take the time to make the aircraft.

Also hats off to the great test pilots who make the first flight.
Truly Garudas. Its very risky business.

Hence my umbrage at people who demand HAL pump the Tejas out as fast they can make them,

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 11 Oct 2018 07:07

tsarkar wrote:
After an F-16 was hit by a Stinger fired by TTP, the Pakistanis use F-16 for long distance destination using Lockheed Sniper pods outside Stinger range and JF-17 as bomb mules to drop the actual bomb. The JF-17 has no guidance capability and is dependent on the F-16 for designation.

Is the guidance on the F-16 optical or radar based ?

If its optical, I'm pretty sure the Cheenis have already developed a system for line of sight targeting.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Oct 2018 09:23

^^Please read up on the capabilities of the Sniper Pod and Pakistan's acquisition. My last post on this as its off topic for Tejas thread.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Oct 2018 09:53

ramana wrote:Hence my umbrage at people who demand HAL pump the Tejas out as fast they can make them,

And for this reason, Saurav Jha says this....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1050069042248081408 ---> Plenty of 'concurrent engineering' has gone on even with respect to the IOC batch production for the Tejas MK-I. It's not simple 'build to print' for HAL. That is exactly what happens when you look to produce homegrown stuff for the first time & leave license production behind.

If one looks at Page 1 of this thread, the following can be surmised....

2014: One aircraft was delivered
2015: No Deliveries
2016: Two aircraft were delivered
2017: Three aircraft were delivered
2018: Five aircraft were delivered (and 2018 is not done yet)....

So the numbers are moving and in a positive direction. However if one is expecting Lockheed Martin type results - 30+ F-16s a day - then they have come to the wrong party

Please remember the last time we actually made our own fighter aircraft was the HF-24 Marut, of which production ended in 1967....more than 50+ years ago! Since then we have been license building planes (MiG-21, MiG-27, Jaguar, Hawk, Su-30MKI, etc). Screwdrivergiri is a whole lot different from Manufacture. One cannot expect an organization that has been license building planes to magically transform into a Lockheed Martin style juggernaut in a span of a few years. The entire culture and mindset has to shift from hand holding (license production) to independence (manufacture). That takes time.

It is for this very reason that many on this forum are dead set against license production of any new fighter. License producing F-16, F-18, Rafale, MiG-35, EF Typhoon, Su-35 or Gripen E is going to be a regression and not a progression. While the IAF needs new fighters, license production is not the answer. Just buy the planes off shelf and get offsets via components. I digress from main topic. Sorry.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 11 Oct 2018 11:06

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Hence my umbrage at people who demand HAL pump the Tejas out as fast they can make them,
And for this reason, Saurav Jha says this....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1050069042248081408 ---> Plenty of 'concurrent engineering' has gone on even with respect to the IOC batch production for the Tejas MK-I. It's not simple 'build to print' for HAL. That is exactly what happens when you look to produce homegrown stuff for the first time & leave license production behind.

Rakesh all u state has been repeated ad nauseam. You should be less patient mate. You have taken the horse to water but cannot make it drink. If the horse refuses to drink - put it out of its misery....

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 11 Oct 2018 12:39

Let me unleash an Elephant into the room with one word. Obsolescence.

Not sure if folk like IR is deliberately keeping quiet on this, but this is indeed a show stopper level problem. Some of this "concurrent engineering" is because of that. This is a generic issue (and good bijness opportunity) everywhere.

The problem is, bean counters expect the supplier to sell the (custom developed) replacement at a 'lower price' onlee because prices always reduce onlee.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Oct 2018 13:21

^^ Good point. In any ship or aircraft with 3000 to 300 components, something or the other is becoming obsolete and hence requires continuous product improvement. A lot of this concurrent engineering will happen. For example Sea Eagle missile will become obsolete and one will require a Harpoon integration to replace it. Agave radar will become obsolete and one will require an Elta 2032 to replace it.

I personally dont buy the beancounter argument because Indian Defence Account Service (an allied IAS service) are pretty competent folks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_De ... ts_Service

What is required is foresight from program directors and to prepare a long term product roadmap.

For example, if one establishes early on that a Elta Radar has a TTL of 10 years and SP-11 will need a new radar in 2028 and 3 radars over the 30 year TTL of the airframe, then the Finance Folks can budget for it early on. So when allocation for MoD is being decided, the IDAS folks can project the cash flows to MoF.

I understand it is not easily possible for R&D projects where one learns on the go to provide a product roadmap, but on the other hand, making ad hoc allocations is extremely tough leading to delays. In India as a whole, we've limited sources of revenue and multiple expenditure heads.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Oct 2018 13:33

tsarkar wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:I understand Litening pod is required for Air to Ground missions only.
The IAF pioneered the use of Litening as an IRST in Su-30MKI and Tejas due to its far superior quality optics compared to Russian ones. So Litening is used in A2A modes as well.

Rafael's Litening 4 pod is the first one that truly allows this use of IRST. So yes, as Indranil said, Israelis and India use it in different ways to most. Russians do have some nifty IRST tech, it is just that their pods don't, so can't really be blamed for inferior optics.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Oct 2018 20:03

I have removed the Aero India 2019 posts from here and into a new thread dedicated for the event. Please do not post Aero India 2019 stuff in here. Thank You.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Oct 2018 20:06

ks_sachin wrote:Rakesh all u state has been repeated ad nauseam. You should be less patient mate. You have taken the horse to water but cannot make it drink. If the horse refuses to drink - put it out of its misery....

Saar, at this stage all we can do is be patient. HAL has set its own targets. If they can make it work, that is great. If not, they will have to improve. But without HAL, there is no option.

Unless a private company is willing to undertake the role of production. That is easier said than done.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 11 Oct 2018 20:15

India's Minister of State for Defence has said:
'IAF’s resolve to wholeheartedly support the indigenous LCA programme by committing to procure *18 squadrons* of LCA and its variants endorsing its capability is notable and praiseworthy'.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/105 ... 17248?s=19

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 11 Oct 2018 20:34

tsarkar wrote:I personally dont buy the beancounter argument because Indian Defence Account Service (an allied IAS service) are pretty competent folks.

Sir.. this is FIRST HAND information. Yes, babus are competent. VERY competent, even OVER competent...... In counting BEANS, which unfortunately is their jobs. In typical govt setup, the s-hole doesn't want to know what the pie-hole eats.

And you talk about Radar, Missile, LDP etc, which are practically COTS, backed by foreign vendors, who sell to multiple customers. They are the least of the problem. There are hundreds of dedicated, custom designed LRUs on the plane, for which the components go obsolete. It is a big problem. Local companies had invested in these LRUs, spent a lot of money expecting volume orders, got only 20pcs order till now, and the parts got obsolete.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2018 20:40

Bound to happen. Intel 486 based units, Pentium etc based units which while functionally still ok for the task are painful to maintain because the COTS boards wont be available tomorrow if one of the SBCs or any item fails.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Oct 2018 20:49

Karan M wrote:Bound to happen. Intel 486 based units, Pentium etc based units which while functionally still ok for the task are painful to maintain because the COTS boards wont be available tomorrow if one of the SBCs or any item fails.

Manufacturers are currently holding stock of these chips in their millions.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2018 20:53

And can you guarantee their reliability if an entire batch fails? Theres a difference between one of these boards failing in a SBC used in some manufacturing line, and in your premier fighter. We source all these items from 3rd party vendors. There's only so much you can do to ensure product reliability & the older the item, the less the guarantee that it was sourced correctly, and it will work as desired.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2018 20:55

BTW, last I checked, the WW mil market for semicon was just some 4-5% or thereabouts of the WW market. Perhaps even lesser. The tail can't wag the dog & as a result, by the time the mil market certifies its items and gets them into production, the WW civilian mass market & COTS moves ahead by one more step and the lead-lag times just keep increasing.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 11 Oct 2018 23:08

Military/Space grade chips are still at 180 and 90 nm all over the world. Mobile processors are going to 10nm or less. Reliability is more important in military/space grade chips

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Oct 2018 23:52

Top Indian Air Force officials to hold talks with HAL
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... ppxMI.html

The Indian Air Force brass will hold talks with top Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) officials on issues of production and upgradation of aircraft at the IAF commanders’ conference, amid questions being raised about the state-run plane maker’s capabilities against the backdrop of the Rafale jet deal. Indigenisation and design and development of aircraft and other equipment will also be discussed at the two-day biannual conference that began on Thursday, an IAF spokesperson said. Last week, IAF chief BS Dhanoa questioned the ability of HAL to deliver fighter jets on schedule, detailing the time overrun in several crucial programmes including the Sukhoi-30s, Jaguars, Mirage-2000s and the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Oct 2018 01:25

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 8680691712 --->
What a beaut! LCA Tejas MK-1 SP-11 that flew for the first time today, getting a look-over.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Oct 2018 01:40

What's lurking on the top right corner?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Oct 2018 01:42

^^^ Intermediate Jet Trainer

Another beauty!

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Oct 2018 02:33

The composites give a fabulous finish and build quality on the jet. Hope they can find a way to replace the remaining metal parts shown in the image.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 12 Oct 2018 02:36

From the same thread of ^^^ tweet

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Oct 2018 02:42

nam wrote:The composites give a fabulous finish and build quality on the jet. Hope they can find a way to replace the remaining metal parts shown in the image.

There are very good reasons to keep some of them metallic. It is not because of a technical challenge.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Oct 2018 03:23

Indranil wrote:
nam wrote:The composites give a fabulous finish and build quality on the jet. Hope they can find a way to replace the remaining metal parts shown in the image.
There are very good reasons to keep some of them metallic. It is not because of a technical challenge.

Ofcourse, I understand, like areas around the engine, where heat is an issue.

Having said that, hunger to find a way of doing it better is what drives innovation. Like the composite created by NAL, which can handle upto 200C and used on the engine bay.

No harm in trying!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 12 Oct 2018 07:26

Post deleted warning issued. If there is continued trolling it will invite a ban.
Moderator.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Oct 2018 10:05

nam wrote:
Indranil wrote: There are very good reasons to keep some of them metallic. It is not because of a technical challenge.
Ofcourse, I understand, like areas around the engine, where heat is an issue.

Having said that, hunger to find a way of doing it better is what drives innovation. Like the composite created by NAL, which can handle upto 200C and used on the engine bay.

No harm in trying!

It is not about heat tolerance etc. composites are brittle under some stress conditions. So you can’t use them in airframe parts which experience those stress conditions. It is unlikely that you will see the percentage of composites to go up much further in LCA. It is already one of the highest in spite of being such a small plane. You will instead see weight savings by decreasing the number of parts.