Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rahul M » 11 Jan 2019 08:36

^^ wrong. by BRF terminology you are still jingos; just level headed ones. ;)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 11 Jan 2019 21:46

ArjunPandit wrote:^^could it be for gauging the capabilities of JF17??



More likely it is a fishing expedition with no intention to purchase anything.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SBajwa » 11 Jan 2019 23:07


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 11 Jan 2019 23:13

^^^ Look what Shooklaw has started!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sudeepj » 12 Jan 2019 00:28

ks_sachin wrote:
sudeepj wrote:HaHa.. why? :-) weight wise, the missile does not appear exceptional. Are there some other requirements that preclude carriage by the LCA?

MBDA will not talk to Elta


I am not sure, but why does ELTA need to talk to MBDA?

The ELTA radar will provide guidance to the LCA combat/weapon management system, like (target, bearing, velocity),
The LCA combat management system will need to feed this information to the missile at launch over the standard data bus,
Midcourse updates can be provided over the data-link that meteor has,
and at an appropriate time the missile will switch ON its seeker and chase the enemy air craft.

To my naive eyes, the only thing missing appears to be the data-link. Ofcourse, we will also need carriage/separation trials..

But because we own the combat/weapon management system on Tejas, this appears to be doable as long as we can communicate with the missile. Is the radar supposed to be the emitter for this communication or is it 'just another' LRU?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2019 01:14

sudeepj wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:MBDA will not talk to Elta


I am not sure, but why does ELTA need to talk to MBDA?

The ELTA radar will provide guidance to the LCA combat/weapon management system, like (target, bearing, velocity),
The LCA combat management system will need to feed this information to the missile at launch over the standard data bus,
Midcourse updates can be provided over the data-link that meteor has,
and at an appropriate time the missile will switch ON its seeker and chase the enemy air craft.

To my naive eyes, the only thing missing appears to be the data-link. Ofcourse, we will also need carriage/separation trials..

But because we own the combat/weapon management system on Tejas, this appears to be doable as long as we can communicate with the missile. Is the radar supposed to be the emitter for this’ll communication or is it 'just another' LRU?

Most missile data links are proprietary as are radar algorithms. Unless both OEMs share it with the aircraft designer/manufacturer, integration isn’t possible. In this case while we have ELTA 2032 algorithms and will get 2052 ones, MBDA has refused to share Meteor codes for both Su-30 (Bars) and Tejas.

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-04

The crafty French realised if we get a potent missile like Meteor, we won’t buy more Rafale. Hence playing dirty to integration with Su-30 & Tejas

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 12 Jan 2019 03:27

sudeepj wrote:But because we own the combat/weapon management system on Tejas, this appears to be doable as long as we can communicate with the missile. Is the radar supposed to be the emitter for this communication or is it 'just another' LRU?


The datalink is derived from the radar beam. Because radar is the only thing onboard a aircraft which is powerful enough to transmit to 100+ km. Sharing datalink integration & encryption might open a window for ECM, although I have no knowledge in this area.

Being in X band helps. The need for datalink for a fired BVR could mean dropping a track for other targets. If it is AESA, multi beam hugely helps.

Another aspect to consider is Meteor's range. If it can fly to more than 150KM and LCA's radar cannot provide datalink, because of range limitation. no point having longer range.

DRDO should speed up SFDR.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 12 Jan 2019 03:37

chola wrote:^^^ Look what Shooklaw has started!!!


But expected Saar. One cannot stop it. Question is, can we benefit from such situations?

Here is one more:

https://www.oneindia.com/india/weaponised-lca-tejas-is-it-superior-sino-pakistani-jf-17-fighter-2834985.html

...
Another thing for which the HAL can pat itself on the back is that Malaysia has shown interest in Tejas and reports say that Kuala Lumpur may even prefer it over Sino-Pakistani JF-17 'Thunder'. The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is considered far deadlier than the JF-17 Thunder fighter by many experts. The current version of Tejas might be slightly costlier than its Sino-Pakistani counterpart, but the HAL manufactured fighter reportedly offers better performance.


I think it is okay to propagate the fact that LCA-Tejas is better and far deadlier than the JF-17 Thunder-Bunder.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby souravB » 12 Jan 2019 04:45

nam wrote:
Another aspect to consider is Meteor's range. If it can fly to more than 150KM and LCA's radar cannot provide datalink, because of range limitation. no point having longer range.


Nam ji, a radar's range is defined w.r.t. the size of the object it can track i.e. at that range a quantity of radiation is strong enough to get back to the receiver for a fixed size of an object. Actual propagation distances of the waves are way more.
Also while for providing datalink the beam will surely be locked and there is no loss of energy like scanning. The range will be more.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 12 Jan 2019 08:56

Kuala Lumpir has invited Tejas to its air show. Its defense minister has expressed interest to fly in it. How else to perceive this but an interest to buy Tejas. Of course they are shopping around. Just like we did for our MMRCA. But didn’t the MMRCA competitors market their candidacy?

What’s wrong if HAL does it? What’s wrong if Ajai Shukla is doing it. More power to them. For once, they are acting like a private company.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 12 Jan 2019 09:14

disha wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Look what Shooklaw has started!!!


But expected Saar. One cannot stop it. Question is, can we benefit from such situations?


No benefit unless it is real. Otherwise, we could be jumping the gun and leaving egg on our faces.

Remember, Malaysia is a muslim nation and traditionally buys Amreeki and Russian hardware for its Air Force along with some chini craft for its navy including an 18-ship order for its littoral patrol class.

When push comes to shove, the Blunder has a better shot strictly because of politics.

I think it is okay to propagate the fact that LCA-Tejas is better and far deadlier than the JF-17 Thunder-Bunder.


That is already an universally known fact.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Nishn » 12 Jan 2019 10:25

Slightly off topic but the rascal Zakir Naik if anyone still remembers him, was requested on extradition, these guys quietly gave him citizenship and a safe house instead. They are certainly not our friends by any means.

The LCA invite is just to fill the tarmac at the Langkawai Air show. The Paki JF-17 won't make the cut either, because they know a thing or two of the RD-33 engines, being Mig-29 operators. They had a squadron (now grounded) called the Smoking Bandits because of the obvious engine smoke issue on Mig-29's. Half their SU-30's are grounded too for lack of spares and no in-house capacity to do heavy maintenance.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby darshhan » 12 Jan 2019 10:56

leaving geopolitics aside, the question is "When will we produce tejas in sufficient quantities to fulfill IAF's requirements, forget exports?"

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 12 Jan 2019 16:19

Nishn wrote:Slightly off topic but the rascal Zakir Naik if anyone still remembers him, was requested on extradition, these guys quietly gave him citizenship and a safe house instead. They are certainly not our friends by any means.

The LCA invite is just to fill the tarmac at the Langkawai Air show. The Paki JF-17 won't make the cut either, because they know a thing or two of the RD-33 engines, being Mig-29 operators. They had a squadron (now grounded) called the Smoking Bandits because of the obvious engine smoke issue on Mig-29's. Half their SU-30's are grounded too for lack of spares and no in-house capacity to do heavy maintenance.


Fair assessment , I don't think anyone is touching Tejas with a 10 feet barge pole until its in Mk1A and filling up 5 squadrons.
Just look at how the world media and us tut tut the various programmes such as F-35, PAK-FA , Typhoon and even Gripen iterations.
You think Tejas is not being tut-tutted by others.

Lets go for our IAF and kill that MRCA !!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby gaurav.p » 12 Jan 2019 16:36

Image


Won't the dual rack pylon be considered a first for the Tejas? No lungi dances? :-o

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 12 Jan 2019 18:12

tsarkar wrote:The crafty French realised if we get a potent missile like Meteor, we won’t buy more Rafale. Hence playing dirty to integration with Su-30 & Tejas

India could realize a meteor class AAM inside of a year .. fingers crossed!

no links, but an observation 8)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 12 Jan 2019 18:30

gaurav.p wrote:Won't the dual rack pylon be considered a first for the Tejas? No lungi dances? :-o

Its not new, It has been there for at least a couple of years now

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SriKumar » 12 Jan 2019 21:29

While we're waiting for the SP-12, 13s etc to roll off the line.....I'll ask about this doubt in my mind.
How does Tejas FCS (or any single engine plane) account for an asymmetry in its weapons load while flying.

For example, say it fires one missile or drops one bomb, then the drag on the 'empty side' of the wing where the ordnance was released will be lesser than on the other side which still has its weapons load- potentially leading to a yaw situation. So how is this compensated for, in a single engine plane. Is the rudder is cocked to one side to the appropriate degree to compensate? Are Elevons are used? FCS applies some combination of these?

Drag is a mechanical force, so some mechanical counter force needs to be applied to correct for the yaw. Are the forces from fast air flow (due to its speed) sufficient to correct this yaw? One imagines that at supersonic speeds, asymmetric drag would be quite high.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 12 Jan 2019 21:33

nam wrote:.....Another aspect to consider is Meteor's range. If it can fly to more than 150KM and LCA's radar cannot provide datalink, because of range limitation. no point having longer range.

DRDO should speed up SFDR.

Radar based Data link range will always be at least few order of magnitude more than radar range, due to active transmission by missile radio compared to passive reflection due to rf illumination by radar.

Practically radar based data link range would be few thousand km.

IIRC F18 AESA communicates with US satellites and give a thick bandwidth link.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2019 00:25

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 8577338368 ---> Wonder why a section of media is calling FOC Tejas as weaponised Tejas? The IOC aircraft is combat ready with missiles, bombs, LGB, etc. Only some capabilities have been enhanced in FOC. Not for nothing did IOC aircraft perform creditably in Gagan Shakti with best bombing scores.

HAL gets nod to produce weaponised version of LCA Tejas :roll:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 379924.cms

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Nishn » 13 Jan 2019 01:26

While we're waiting for the SP-12, 13s etc to roll off the line.....I'll ask about this doubt in my mind.
How does Tejas FCS (or any single engine plane) account for an asymmetry in its weapons load while flying.

For example, say it fires one missile or drops one bomb, then the drag on the 'empty side' of the wing where the ordnance was released will be lesser than on the other side which still has its weapons load- potentially leading to a yaw situation. So how is this compensated for, in a single engine plane. Is the rudder is cocked to one side to the appropriate degree to compensate? Are Elevons are used? FCS applies some combination of these?

Sri Kumar - in your response: As far as I know Ordnance or payload release anytime will either cause a yaw or pitch change on the aircraft making the ride coarse. But it is momentarily, till it's trimmed back to desired comfort/smoothness by manual input. And it should not take no more than a few seconds. The trim switches are on the stick itself, with a move of a finger. It's not limited to just single engine. Twins will have the same effect but a little less obvious. The FCS will continue to protect the flight envelop in this regime. I am talking of anything right up to Gen.4. Gen.4+ and 5 who knows?!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SriKumar » 13 Jan 2019 06:19

Thanks. I assume the trim will move the respective aileron to correct for pitch, and rudder for yaw.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby rahul_r » 13 Jan 2019 06:57

Nishn wrote:While we're waiting for the SP-12, 13s etc to roll off the line.....I'll ask about this doubt in my mind.
How does Tejas FCS (or any single engine plane) account for an asymmetry in its weapons load while flying.


Saurav Jha’s tweet seems to indicate SP-12 has rolled out ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/sjha1618/sta ... 6428786688

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Jan 2019 07:19

SriKumar wrote:Thanks. I assume the trim will move the respective aileron to correct for pitch, and rudder for yaw.

Its done by FCS is it not.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 13 Jan 2019 08:26

What kind of Jingos are you :P

SP-12 flew at the end of Nov. It joined the squadron yesterday. SP13 and 14 to roll out soon.

As for asymmetric loads, the FCS takes care of it. No load is passed to the pilot.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2019 08:45

Guys, please refer to page 1 of this thread :P

Kept up-to-date by the mods.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 13 Jan 2019 08:47

Kakarat wrote:
gaurav.p wrote:Won't the dual rack pylon be considered a first for the Tejas? No lungi dances? :-o

Its not new, It has been there for at least a couple of years now

Are these the new low drag pylons?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 13 Jan 2019 08:53

Indranil wrote:What kind of Jingos are you :P

SP-12 flew at the end of Nov. It joined the squadron yesterday. SP13 and 14 to roll out soon.

As for asymmetric loads, the FCS takes care of it. No load is passed to the pilot.

Nice ! 3 flights in the sqn. Last flight in the queue, then squadron is completely loaded.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SriKumar » 13 Jan 2019 09:46

Rakesh wrote:Guys, please refer to page 1 of this thread :P

Kept up-to-date by the mods.

Sorry yaaron.....ghor paap ho gaya.
Have to do a praayaschit/penitence yaatra to Sulur AFS and three pradakshinas around SP-12 (which I'll gladly do if given an opportunity :D ).
(In my defense, SP-11 first flight was given good publicity here with photu and everything. I somehow missed seeing any photu for pehla phlight of SP-12. :) )


ks_sachin- yes FCS controls everything on the craft but ultimately the FCS has to move a control surface, and for the yaw control other than the rudder I was not clear if there was another surface involved- I'll google it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 13 Jan 2019 10:26

SriKumar wrote:ks_sachin- yes FCS controls everything on the craft but ultimately the FCS has to move a control surface, and for the yaw control other than the rudder I was not clear if there was another surface involved- I'll google it.
AFAIK trimming asymmetric weapon load (resulting in wing halves seeing drag difference as well as lift requirement) requires both aileron and rudder correction. In case of tail less Tejas it would be thus elevon and rudder.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 13 Jan 2019 10:49

It is always a multitude of corrections. In atmospheric winged flight, yaw will always lead to roll and roll will always lead to yaw.

In an unstable aircraft like LCA, it is much more complex. There is no way for a human to correct such an aircraft. There is no option but for the FCS to correct it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jan 2019 12:07

Rahul M wrote:
trivia : can any oldie tell me (without googling) what ASIEO did for the LCA project and why we dont hear its name any more ? :P

this is still unanswered. :wink:

c'mon BRFites this is expected from anyone who has cleared LCA-101. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby rrao » 13 Jan 2019 12:22

Rahul sirji,

ASIEO did develop RWR ,LWR and MAWS in collaboration with EADS...i think it got fizzled out. later ASIEO became DARE and they are in to development of mission computers and display processors for rambha.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jan 2019 12:52

+1

didn't exactly fizzle out, tarang RWR did find its way into service.

from the wiki page :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_A ... as_of_Work

Areas of Work

DARE has two major wings– the Electronic Warfare (EW) wing and the Mission Avionics Wing (MAW). The EW wing concentrates on development of Radar Warning Systems and EW suites for aircraft. The MAW conducts Research and Development in the area of Mission Avionics. In addition to development, DARE also conducts testing and integration of the systems into aircraft.

Achievements

DRDO's avionics program has been a success story; DARE being the lead designer in several of these efforts. Its Mission computers, radar warning receivers, high accuracy direction finding pods, airborne jammers, flight instrumentation, are used across a wide variety of Indian Air Force aircraft. The organization began developing these various items for its upgrades, and for the LCA project. Variants were then developed for other aircraft.

The DRDO is also co-developing more advanced avionics for the Light Combat Aircraft and the IAF's combat fleet. These include a range of powerful Open Architecture computers, better Defensive avionics including modern RWR's, self-protection jammers, missile approach warning systems and integrated defensive suites, optronics systems (such as Infrared search and track systems) and navigational systems such as Ring Laser Gyro based inertial navigation systems.

Some products developed by DARE include:

AEW Systems: Built for Indian Air Force and Navy aircraft, these consist of Electronic Support Measures and Self-Protection Jammers.
Radar Warning Systems: Developed for fighter aircraft in 1997. The units are being produced by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for use in all IAF and Indian Navy aircraft & Helicopters.
Mission Avionics: DARE has developed the Mission computers and avionics for various aircraft, including the HAL Tejas, Jaguar DARIN-II and the Su-30MKI. The mission avionics includes a Mission Computer, Display Processor and Radar Computer. All have been indigenously developed, and represent major breakthroughs in achieving technical proficiency in these technologies.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby darshhan » 13 Jan 2019 13:19

kit wrote:
tsarkar wrote:The crafty French realised if we get a potent missile like Meteor, we won’t buy more Rafale. Hence playing dirty to integration with Su-30 & Tejas

India could realize a meteor class AAM inside of a year .. fingers crossed!

no links, but an observation 8)


And Sir if your observation turns out to be true then within that one year, french will offer meteor once more, only this time without any preconditions.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 13 Jan 2019 14:29

Shuklaji has now blogged a topic which I have mentioned here quite a few times. The rate of HAL production cannot be increased with only 20 IOC & FOC jets.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/01/tejas-production-disrupted-as-air-force.html

The IAF has been sitting on MK1A order. Neither is it increasing FOC order numbers.

You cannot build a 24 per year line with 16 jet and 4 trainers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Jan 2019 14:30

Rahul M wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
trivia : can any oldie tell me (without googling) what ASIEO did for the LCA project and why we dont hear its name any more ? :P

this is still unanswered. :wink:

c'mon BRFites this is expected from anyone who has cleared LCA-101. :)

Sirji you had said not to use googal. I had used it years ago so respected your wishes...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 13 Jan 2019 15:03

I am assuming I was tacitly banned from replying. :(( :mrgreen:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jan 2019 15:12

sachin sir, you mean googal has no statute of limitations ?

Karan M wrote:I am assuming I was tacitly banned from replying. :(( :mrgreen:

goes without saying. :P

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 13 Jan 2019 15:15

Rakesh wrote:Guys, please refer to page 1 of this thread :P

Kept up-to-date by the mods.


Come on
go large font , go red and make this post of yours a sticky ....

Page 1 is my temple !!
Everyone should visit it once a month


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