Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jun 2018 10:03

DDM zindabad

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Jun 2018 10:41

ramana wrote:So most likely the break through in the Nag sensor was the LWIR detection capability.

Thanks pravula for posting the article about different IR sensors.

What I know is LWIR also can penetrate the atmosphere and can be detected by satellites. Especially Missile launches.

OT .. the GEO based LWIR space sensors ( the american SBIRS or the chinese equivalent already deployed) seem to have excellent target acquisition capabilities
so way to go ..scale it up !

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jun 2018 11:33

DRDO Chief on Tejas

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/from-cy ... ef-1859580

Another important point is that what has brought out is extremely good in Light Combat Aircraft. This is extremely important. It is of course an excellent plane because it is an unstably stable aircraft. It runs by the mission controller though the pilot is giving the control because it is such an unstable system. You give it one degree tilt, and within 200 millisecond it can go up to about 32 degrees. That is the swiftness the speed with which it is going to react. Consequently, what you need to do is you have to have a proper mechanism to do that so we have today in the LCA automatic takeoff and landing. Automatic take off is very much there. Flying safely is there today in the case of naval version of the LCA. All this like ski-jumping, flying the level version. It is all being done automatically and flying in level safely has been done automatically. But then for landing the last bit is some more pseudo lights and other things have to be put. We need to manage and see that it is lands properly. That is the only case that is pending. Even then there is a smaller vehicle we are making, that is the SWIFT in the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in Bangalore. By this time next year we will have a SWIFT landing also

NDTV: What is the capability of SWIFT?

Dr Christopher: We don't have any capability other than proving the platform itself. We will use one of the engines of none other than the nearby Nirbhay, and we will simply fly for proving the vehicle that it can take-off and land. We will not have more than 5 kg or 10 kg capability. That is not meant for any payload being dropped. It is mainly for proving the aircraft and when that is over, the full blown AMCA is getting ready that will use the dry Kaveri engine. But that's a bigger fellow. You want to start with the small and then go to the bigger. That Kaveri engine is available for that purpose whereas for the drone you are denied. For engine, we do have a Kaveri substitute though the power requirement is 52 kilotons, which is possible from Kaveri as against what is required about 80 kilotons.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Jun 2018 11:43

Austin wrote:DRDO Chief on Tejas

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/from-cy ... ef-1859580
Another important point is that what has brought out is extremely good in Light Combat Aircraft. This is extremely important. It is of course an excellent plane because it is an unstably stable aircraft. It runs by the mission controller though the pilot is giving the control because it is such an unstable system. You give it one degree tilt, and within 200 millisecond it can go up to about 32 degrees. That is the swiftness the speed with which it is going to react. Consequently, what you need to do is you have to have a proper mechanism to do that so we have today in the LCA automatic takeoff and landing. Automatic take off is very much there. Flying safely is there today in the case of naval version of the LCA. All this like ski-jumping, flying the level version. It is all being done automatically and flying in level safely has been done automatically. But then for landing the last bit is some more pseudo lights and other things have to be put. We need to manage and see that it is lands properly. That is the only case that is pending. Even then there is a smaller vehicle we are making, that is the SWIFT in the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in Bangalore. By this time next year we will have a SWIFT landing also

NDTV: What is the capability of SWIFT?

Dr Christopher: We don't have any capability other than proving the platform itself. We will use one of the engines of none other than the nearby Nirbhay, and we will simply fly for proving the vehicle that it can take-off and land. We will not have more than 5 kg or 10 kg capability. That is not meant for any payload being dropped. It is mainly for proving the aircraft and when that is over, the full blown AMCA is getting ready that will use the dry Kaveri engine. But that's a bigger fellow. You want to start with the small and then go to the bigger. That Kaveri engine is available for that purpose whereas for the drone you are denied. For engine, we do have a Kaveri substitute though the power requirement is 52 kilotons, which is possible from Kaveri as against what is required about 80 kilotons.

OT here, but correction, it should be UCAV not AMCA. SWIFT is TD for UCAV. And it must not be just for demonstrating TO/Landing. I don't know its its DDM writing crap. SWIFT is TD for flying wing like stealth concept. The basic flight mechanics will be studies and demonstrated through it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jun 2018 22:34

Not sure if this was posted before

From the Cockpit of LCA Tejas : An Interview with Air Commodore Harish Nayani

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jun 2018 22:43

From the Cockpit of LCA Tejas : An Interview with Air Cmde Rohit Varma (Part 1)

Part 2

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Jun 2018 12:13

pravula wrote:
mody wrote:
Don't know what they mean by dual band? Any gurus have some idea. The news also states 'Long Range'. Maybe if we develop an IR-Astra like the MICA or ASRAAM, with our own IIR seeker, and thrust vector controls on the Astra, then a long range IRST would really come in handy.
I think something which uses both Medium and Long wave infrared bands.

Multispectral detectors are a good idea.
Deep infra red can penetrate fog, smoke etc unlike shorter wavelengths IR.
Swedish have paired their aircraft / missile warning detectors with AI to make them detect incoming threats much more effectively than conventional sensor controls means.
DRDO needs to get cracking on designing a compact sensor of this type for MK2 and possibly other aircraft.
Run of the mill IRST stuff won't do.
Integrate it directly on the aircraft itself for 360 degree coverage on the AMCA as is the case on F-35 JSF.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Jun 2018 12:17

Start working on the internal weapons package and other intel payloads for the AMCA now.
It will clealy be quite different in form from existing planes due to its internal bay.
Start doing it now because surprises will start popping up in the weapons design phase that will influence the design of the overall plane itself.
Do not leave it as an afterthought or the program will once again be infinitely delayed like the Tejas.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Jun 2018 12:31

JayS wrote: In no situation HAL should be allowed to procure COTS systems and come up with slapdash stand-alone solution just for Mk1A when we are anyway going to have homegrown efforts (perhaps with much improved desi content) for full overhaul and upgrade of avionics for MK2, for the sake of cost and uniformity. .

The ad hoc addition of requirements by the IAF ensures that any design will turn into spaghetti with COTS and indigenous systems thrown together hurriedly and held in place with duct tape.

Where is proper requirement engineering in this whole process and why is it not enforced.

They will do the same on the AMCA if this is not corrected.

Its an issue of bad project management.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 04 Jun 2018 21:25

Neshant wrote:Multispectral detectors are a good idea.

Good idea but passe..
I believe 3 counties are making hyspectral detectors that can identify target type even before the target shape can be optically discerned.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jun 2018 04:55

186 test flights in the last 110 days, or more than 50 flights per 30 days.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 06 Jun 2018 09:57

very quiet on delivery front of planes, I would expect it to become periodic affair to have a plane delivered almost every month

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Jun 2018 00:28

x post from the Navy thread

Everyone keeps talking about foreign influence on Indian design, so let me point out an indelible Indian influence on foreign design.

For LCA Navy, we went with a two seater design with the rear cockpit used for avionics & possibly additional fuel. The same design element was used for MiG-29K and possibly carried forward in MiG-35 that takes MiG-29K developments (paid by India) to land based fighters.

So whenever you see this design, remember Indians came up with it.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Jun 2018 21:23

Apparently Gp Cpt Rangachari is no longer CO of No.45 Squadron. The role of CO has been taken over by Gp Cpt Samrat Dhankar "Danny". Info by Tarmak. Perhaps this coincides with the move of No.45 Squadron to Sulur AFS.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2018 22:33

Yes. And he in non-test pilot background. And quite high rank.

Twitter has his picture too.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jun 2018 22:55

Neshant wrote:
JayS wrote: In no situation HAL should be allowed to procure COTS systems and come up with slapdash stand-alone solution just for Mk1A when we are anyway going to have homegrown efforts (perhaps with much improved desi content) for full overhaul and upgrade of avionics for MK2, for the sake of cost and uniformity. .
The ad hoc addition of requirements by the IAF ensures that any design will turn into spaghetti with COTS and indigenous systems thrown together hurriedly and held in place with duct tape.

Where is proper requirement engineering in this whole process and why is it not enforced.

They will do the same on the AMCA if this is not corrected.

Its an issue of bad project management.

Gents,

COTS may be the preferred solution in a large number of cases. Cost effective as well as economically viable for the intended role with no discernable advantage over MIL grade items.

There is a tradeoff and that tradeoff improves with design expertise and repair/OH history that is usually factored in by incorporating modifications as the confidence level increases.

Inventory carrying/storage costs and replacement lead times are much reduced. They also have longer shelf lives without very stringent storage inspection requirements and therefore costs.

Usually COTS has more use in numerous other applications and at times has a longer history and a bigger, more catholic database of failure/replacement history and other workshop/repair facility parametric analysis. Technicians are easier to train and retain.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jun 2018 22:56

ramana wrote:Yes. And he in non-test pilot background. And quite high rank.

Twitter has his picture too.

in most cases, a non test pilot background actually helps in squadron service.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Jun 2018 16:31

It means the plane has reached 'workhorse' status.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jun 2018 17:37

INDIA's SKY GUARDIANS OF TOMORROW

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jun 2018 01:16

The ADA page has been updated with no of flights
https://www.ada.gov.in/

· 3976th flight on 7th Jun

TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:393 LSP5: 405

TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 205 LSP2: 317 LSP4: 360 LSP7: 294

NP1: 73 LSP8 : 234 PV6:175 NP2: 55

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Jun 2018 15:32

Picture of Uttam AESA on LCA-Tejas.

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 6509325312

nash · Post by **nash** » 11 Jun 2018 18:19

Its great to see Uttam with Tejas, we may hear some thing about testing in coming days.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jun 2018 23:35

Adding to Kakarat's post above...

Comments below are from the tweet and not mine.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 3252981760 ---> UTTAM is a multimode solid state active phased array FCR with Air-Air,Air-Ground and Air-Sea modes. It's cutting edge ECCM gives low probability of intercept and jammer suppression. Additionally scalable architecture to allow it to fit onto any fighter class.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Jun 2018 22:00

JTull wrote:Picture of Uttam AESA on LCA-Tejas.

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 6509325312

Improved version:

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Jun 2018 23:04

No ranges mentioned?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Jun 2018 00:07

So I think that if LCA mk-2 become MCA, the orders for LCA Mk1A will have to increase. What do you all think?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 13 Jun 2018 01:25

While I am happy about the progress in testing UTTAM, I hope this does not result in further delays in selecting an AESA radar for Mk1A, which is much delayed already.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 13 Jun 2018 02:15

Cybaru wrote:So I think that if LCA mk-2 become MCA, the orders for LCA Mk1A will have to increase. What do you all think?

The only grind beneath the teeth is AMCA then.
What becomes of it ?
Delayed, still born , dropped ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jun 2018 02:32

Khalsa-ji, cybaru is spot on!

AMCA is still with ADA and so is Mk2.

Mk1A is HAL's baby and they can deliver more if the IAF wants it.

There are enough human resources to manage the programs. The problem lies with the funding and the optimum use of human resources. The GoI and the Bureaucrats need to see & believe the vision ----> a strong, independent, military industrial complex. Easier said than done.

If we order just another two more Rafale squadrons (please, no license production. Just buy them off the shelf, like the first batch and get offsets of components) + take up HAL's offer for two additional Su-30MKI squadrons, by 2025 the IAF can look like this;

4 Rafale Squadrons (72 - 80 aircraft)
3 Mirage 2000I Squadrons (45 aircraft)
3 MiG-29UPG Squadrons (54 aircraft)
17 Su-30MKI Squadrons (312 aircraft)
2 Tejas Mk1 Squadrons (40 aircraft)
4 Tejas Mk1A Squadrons (83 aircraft)
4 Jaguar Darin III Squadrons (80 aircraft)

The above comes to 37 squadrons. You add another three Tejas Mk1A squadrons to the order of 83 and you will have a total of 40 squadrons in the IAF by 2025. Squadron shortage solved without costly expenditures. There is no need for another fighter type in the IAF. All of the above will be *WAY* cheaper than $20 billion (cost of the MRCA acquisition). Once Mk2 production is underway, it will replace the MiG-29UPG, Mirage 2000I and Jaguar Darin III. This is achievable. Once that is done, the IAF will be operating just three fighter types - Rafale, Tejas and Su-30MKI. I am waiting for the CAG report to come out on the Rafale. AMCA will realistically come only by the mid-2030s.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Jun 2018 02:49

Khalsa wrote:
Cybaru wrote:So I think that if LCA mk-2 become MCA, the orders for LCA Mk1A will have to increase. What do you all think?
The only grind beneath the teeth is AMCA then.
What becomes of it ?
Delayed, still born , dropped ?

Different product lines for different segments. One is stealthy aircraft and will be our first of the type.
Another is reliable 4.5 gen aircraft that is cheap to order, maintain & operate.

I also think there will be evolution on the AMCA. I think it will end up becoming a larger platform and MKI replacement, pretty much the size of PAKFA if pakfa gets dropped. Problem will be the engine for it. We may have to tie up now for an engine to be available 10 years down the road.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Jun 2018 11:19

Kakarat - any more brochures? Radars, EW, missiles, subsystem etc

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 13 Jun 2018 12:47

Karan M wrote:Kakarat - any more brochures? Radars, EW, missiles, subsystem etc

Yes I have a lot more to share, hopefully within a week. But things related to Tejas would be less

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 13 Jun 2018 13:59

Fair enough, Admiral & Cybaru.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2018 14:21

AMCA need not grow to pakfa size. the JSF is going to be the predominant 5th gen fighter for the next 50 years and slowly replace all the F-16. the raptors will be retired as they are costly and each has unique parts due to low volume production.

while being medium size, it has a large radar , comprehensive sensors, network support, vast EW library, some of the best missiles/PGMs , a 1300km combat radius (2x that of a typical fighter), and can accelerate as fast as a F-16 due to internal weapons.

the future of a2a is bvr and network support, not f-16 / mki type hyper moves - missiles are a lot more hyper pulling 45G.

where the JSF might struggle is at high altitude where a big wing & twin tails matter to generate any lift in the thin air and catching manned rockets like the foxhound inbound @ 70,000ft @ mach2.5 ..... most fighters run out of steam in 5 mins of sustained supersonic. the raptor was designed for such high ceiling. AAMs fired do not get the advantage of climbing higher and diving , they are climbing & chasing and losing serious energy after motor burnout. a alert foxhound is almost impossible to bring down at long range.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jun 2018 15:13

the future of a2a is bvr and network support, not f-16 / mki type hyper moves - missiles are a lot more hyper pulling 45G.

Hyper Moves via TVC allows you to engage and disengage in the combat on your terms , You may have a hyper pulling missile but you can fire those missile in a more favourable conditions that can be achieved double quickly with TVC and if you even want to egress out you can do that more faster and effeciently with TVC add to it SC capability your capability gets far better , If you happen to speak with Su boys they have worked extensively at TACDE to hone their BVR and WVR/Guns combat skills using TVC , another unknown advantage less know is with TV it reduces you aircraft flap/trim movement in flight and help in conserving more fuel.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2018 19:12

perhaps that will be taken over by agile UCAVs packed with 6-10 AAMs and not subject to 9G human limitations.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jun 2018 12:30

Can we stick to Tejas here?

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 17 Jun 2018 12:46

What about integrating it onto the Tejas.
If the answer is no, India needs to stop buying European defense equipment as it is a dead end.

------

Setback for IAF's plans to arm fighter jets with Meteor missiles

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-04

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 17 Jun 2018 12:54

Neshant wrote:What about integrating it onto the Tejas.
If the answer is no, India needs to stop buying European defense equipment as it is a dead end.

------

Setback for IAF's plans to arm fighter jets with Meteor missiles

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-04

By israli radar, i think it's obv they mean tejas. Iaf wasn't going to carry meteor on jags.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 17 Jun 2018 13:00

Trikaal wrote: By israli radar, i think it's obv they mean tejas. Iaf wasn't going to carry meteor on jags.

If so, the team that negotiated the purchase of these missiles did a very poor job of it.

If they did not cover these basic conditions of usage of the missiles on multiple planes in the IAF stables during purchase negotiations, they are incompetent as negotiators.