Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nachiket » 30 Mar 2018 22:55

Trikaal wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
Then the engine will need to change from 414 to something more powerful. Like the AL31 or its American equivalent.


Why? F-16 and Gripen-E fly with F-414, don't they? Both the aircrafts are considered medium build. Tejas Mk2 just has to achieve similar nos in range, speed and payload which HAL believes would be achievable. The problem earlier was attaining those nos in a light aircraft.

It would be nice to do some basic research before you post.

The Gripen E is powered by the F414 with a max wet thrust of 98kN.
F-16s have been powered by several different versions of 2 different engines the PW F100 and the GE F110 both of which are more powerful than the F414. Late model F-16s have the F100-PW-229 (129kN). Some versions like UAE's blk 60 have the F110-GE-132 variant making 144kN.

Brochure claims aside, simple physics will tell you that the Gripen will not be able to lift the same payload as an F-16 with so much more power available. That does not stop Saab from claiming ridiculous values for the Gripen's max payload in brochures. Evaluations by the Swiss and Indian AFs brought out the truth however. The Swiss evaluation comparative report was posted here earlier to show how hollow Saab's claims are. Not surprising since they were basically hawking us vaporware during the MRCA trials considering that the definitive Gripen E prototype made its first flight only in June 2017.

Yet like clockwork, we always have someone righteously asking why ADA/HAL cannot match the Gripen's brochure claims in the Tejas Mk2.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 30 Mar 2018 23:04

I hope that HAL manufactures atleast 6 LCA in FY 2018-19 but 9 would be super.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby RKumar » 31 Mar 2018 01:06

I hope someone in MoD has ordered another 83 F404-GE-IN20 engine as I could only find reference of 41 engines out of which 25 are flying and I assume other 16 are already on the floor or final assembly line :eek:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vips » 31 Mar 2018 03:56



IAF RFQ for 83 aircrafts - Type MK1A filled by HAL on March 13th 2018. SP 10 on assembly line,looks at least 2-3 months away from flying...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 31 Mar 2018 04:07

SP-10 seems to be in equipping phase which means that all the structural coupling and assembly is completed and the looming etc. are going on. Looks like half of that work is also complete. This stage on line 1 currently takes about 2 months. Therefore, I would expect SP-10 to take to the air in less than a month if all LRUs are supplied. This is exactly what label on the tea box said!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2018 05:07

So when is the HAL proposal for the 83 Mk1A due to be accepted by GOI?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2018 07:46

ramana wrote:So when is the HAL proposal for the 83 Mk1A due to be accepted by GOI?


IAF issued HAL the single vender tender on Dec21, 2017

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 050_1.html

mk1a will differ in 4 areas from mk1

While HAL builds these 40 Tejas Mark 1 fighters, it is also working on four major upgrades that will transform the current version of the fighter into the Tejas Mark 1A, of which 83 will be built.

Of the four upgrades, the two most operationally vital involve integrating the fighter with “active electronically scanned array” (AESA) radar, in place of the Tejas Mark 1’s manually scanned Israeli Elta EL/M 2032 radar; and integrating a “self-protection jammer” (SPJ) that is carried in an external pod under the Tejas’ wing.

Two other upgrades – improving the “maintainability” of the fighter, and fitting it with external refuelling capability – are already well in hand.



---
imo it will be a formidable a2a platform with astra, derby, r73 , HMS topsight/topowl and aesa radar.

other than F-15C/Saudi/SK/Sg APG63, JSF , F22 , F-16 block60 there is no other in-service fighter with aesa radar even today.

rafale RBE2EE I dont think is on the french AF fighters , will it come in our rafales ?
Eurofighter Captor-E will remain a dream - underfunded, weak, laachar, majboor .... :D
russian irbis-E is not on anything yet

baki to aur koi nahi hai muqabla dene ke liye ....

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby brar_w » 31 Mar 2018 08:55

other than F-15C/Saudi/SK/Sg APG63, JSF , F22 , F-16 block60 there is no other in-service fighter with aesa radar even today.


Add the F-18E/F, IAF Jaguars, EA-18G, F-15E (AN/APG-82), Rafale, F-2, and in the next few months, the F-16V (Taiwan) plus whatever the Chinese have/claim to have fielded on the J-10. The first Typhoon AESA is fully funded for integration on the Kuwaiti aircraft. It is the higher capability radar that is currently lacking funding support, although with the recent Saudi announcement that should take care of that as well. The USMC F/A-18 C/D fleet is also getting an AESA radar although in relatively small numbers (90 aircraft) starting in 2020.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2018 09:55

other than US, not really very mature efforts...everyone is creeping forward to see how things go and who pays for it...preferably dumb but cash rich export clients :D

hence unlike our Tejas which reached IOC 3 decades after similar a/c from the world leaders, Uttam is not starting with such a great lag

how many rafale in french AF
(a) have the rbe2 aa today ?
(b) funded to get it in future?

my prediction - they will fund a token number and call it a day, relaying on making money via sales to india (36+36), egypt etc of the sooper dooper kit. they deleted the OSF IRST for funds claiming that damocles pod would do the job and no real a2a work was needed.
#weak

big talk from 2011 saar - only around 30% of their rafale at best have the rbe2 aa maybe less
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ar-214851/

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 31 Mar 2018 11:18

To complete 40 LCA, it will take another 4 years for HAL @ 6 to 10 per annum. For 83 LCA, I assume rate will pick upto 16 per annum ie another 5 years, though 24 per annum is preferable. For next 200 Mk2, it may be another 8 years even @ 36 per annum, so 48 per annum is required.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2018 11:24

the production agency (GE) will need to be given confirmed orders years in advance for the GE414 to get these things flowing smoothly to us without delay when we need it.

for Uttam also, the time to train people and get the BEL line ready is NOW, not after it passes all tests....changes are unlikely to be any or very minor in HW now, it will be sw changes mostly.... subsystems which are deemed ok for tranche1 need to be given orders and outside OEMs gotten lined up and delivering stuff. stuff like power modules, cooling module , motor, mechanical frame....these wont change....most of the LRUs wont change

else there will be 2 years of "training, lead time and tooling up" delays after Uttam is IOC. also with highly programmable gear there is never a static FOC or the old 1 release every 3 yrs kind of ponderous timeline.....it can be made commerical type and releases and updates every few months to keep improving things...thats the way world is going.

we have to up our game into volume production, the old LRIP/LSP/POC/science project mode has to be abandoned wholesale and funds , huge funds poured in or we will be left holding the bag yet again, while import lobbies cite delays for more emergency purchases

good product managers and VPs always made sound calls when a product is shippable and what can be phased in later...endless tinkering in the quest for eternal perfection is the job of hobbyists and university labs not a warfighter or production agency.

its IAFs game to lose. they need to step up and aggressively manage these products in their pipeline. I believe they put astra on the fast track because the r77 does not really work, so fire was under the chair with 100s of unreliable bvr missiles and only aa10 to fall back on.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 31 Mar 2018 13:11

1st time in 3 decades, @IAF_MCC to deploy #INDIGENOUS #MakeinIndia #LCATejas aircraft on #Pak border in #wargames #ExGaganShakti , last plane was #HF24Marut

https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/9 ... 40162?s=19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2018 13:58

Linked below is an instrument that is used in humans in some instances. I wonder if a similar instrument can be designed to make the F 404 sized LCA accommodate the Al-31
https://cdn.naughtydelight.com/pub/medi ... lack-1.jpg

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 31 Mar 2018 15:06

shiv wrote:Linked below is an instrument that is used in humans in some instances. I wonder if a similar instrument can be designed to make the F 404 sized LCA accommodate the Al-31
https://cdn.naughtydelight.com/pub/medi ... lack-1.jpg


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Shiv saar- NSFW hashtag marna tha na. Opened it in office. :oops: :oops:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 31 Mar 2018 15:35

Shiv, noughty.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby brar_w » 31 Mar 2018 17:10

Singha wrote:other than US, not really very mature efforts...everyone is creeping forward to see how things go and who pays for it...preferably dumb but cash rich export clients :D

hence unlike our Tejas which reached IOC 3 decades after similar a/c from the world leaders, Uttam is not starting with such a great lag

how many rafale in french AF
(a) have the rbe2 aa today ?
(b) funded to get it in future?

my prediction - they will fund a token number and call it a day, relaying on making money via sales to india (36+36), egypt etc of the sooper dooper kit. they deleted the OSF IRST for funds claiming that damocles pod would do the job and no real a2a work was needed.
#weak

big talk from 2011 saar - only around 30% of their rafale at best have the rbe2 aa maybe less
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ar-214851/



viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2262630#p2262630

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 31 Mar 2018 17:18

shiv saarr took chinese chrysymanthaneum (or whatever it is too seriously)...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Abhibhushan » 31 Mar 2018 18:29

To celebrate completion of 65 years of commissioned service and 50 years since assuming my first command of an operational unit, visited the Flying Daggers for tea and crew room Gup.

The boys are all experienced pilots.
Boys come from varied backgrounds. M2K,Jaguar, Mig29, Mig27 are all represented. Soon there will be boys from SU30MKI as well. The boys were all very upbeat about their present mount.


Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
— talk about difficulties with maintenance exaggerated
— intensive operations tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might.
—if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.

A very happy day for me.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby wig » 31 Mar 2018 18:35

Abhibhushan wrote:Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
— talk about difficulties with maintenance exaggerated
— intensive operations tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might.
—if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.

A very happy day for me.



wonderful news

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 31 Mar 2018 18:54

Abhibhushan wrote:To celebrate completion of 65 years of commissioned service and 50 years since assuming my first command of an operational unit, visited the Flying Daggers for tea and crew room Gup.

The boys are all experienced pilots.
Boys come from varied backgrounds. M2K,Jaguar, Mig29, Mig27 are all represented. Soon there will be boys from SU30MKI as well. The boys were all very upbeat about their present mount.


Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
— talk about difficulties with maintenance exaggerated
— intensive operations tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might.
—if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.

A very happy day for me.


Thank you very very much Sir for the update. JIngo khush hua.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I say we stick these points in the first post of this thread. Appreciation and delight coming from Sq 45 is the best weapon against the propaganda run against Tejas and 'desi-karan' in general.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby vasu raya » 31 Mar 2018 19:49

Abhibhushan wrote:— intensive operations tried out successfully
lots of scope to increase its might.


Typically POC mode is ahead of production stage, so if there is a wearable tech equivalent on the Tejas, they could take the whole sequences of action by IAF pilots and run them through the simulators, while going back on the FCS software versions used in the sims and see when the Tejas FCS was actually ready. That would be the ideal time when the feedback on the bolded part is sought.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby vasu raya » 31 Mar 2018 19:53

Vips wrote:IAF RFQ for 83 aircrafts - Type MK1A filled by HAL on March 13th 2018. SP 10 on assembly line,looks at least 2-3 months away from flying...


The talk of unilateral upgrade by Raju sir sounds like Bachelor freedom :-)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 31 Mar 2018 20:24

Abhibhushan sir, thanks thanks for your update, am elated. Hope you get to visit the team after Ex: GaganShakti on April8th for another cup of tea and gup, would love to hear "we kicked butt" kind of stories.

https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/9 ... 4053340162

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2018 21:16

Congratulations on your service milestones.

Awesome update.

I recall.yiur role in forming the first requirements for Tejas urf LCA.

Amazing mix of pilots forming the No. 45.

Did they say which role it excels?

How is it as an air combat plane?
Have no concerns wrt ground attack.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2018 21:50

Abhibhushan wrote:To celebrate completion of 65 years of commissioned service and 50 years since assuming my first command of an operational unit, visited the Flying Daggers for tea and crew room Gup.

The boys are all experienced pilots.
Boys come from varied backgrounds. M2K,Jaguar, Mig29, Mig27 are all represented. Soon there will be boys from SU30MKI as well. The boys were all very upbeat about their present mount.


Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
— talk about difficulties with maintenance exaggerated
— intensive operations tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might.
—if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.

A very happy day for me.

Where's the "like" button?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2018 21:52

the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
ramana - remember the Mirage was bought as in interceptor

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 31 Mar 2018 21:59

Abhibhushan wrote:To celebrate completion of 65 years of commissioned service and 50 years since assuming my first command of an operational unit, visited the Flying Daggers for tea and crew room Gup.

The boys are all experienced pilots.
Boys come from varied backgrounds. M2K,Jaguar, Mig29, Mig27 are all represented. Soon there will be boys from SU30MKI as well. The boys were all very upbeat about their present mount.


Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
— talk about difficulties with maintenance exaggerated
— intensive operations tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might.
—if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.

A very happy day for me.


I take the ghost of Marut is finally laid to rest.

Our warriors can now trust Indian MIC to deliver high technology platforms. We have the foundation now.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby VickyAvinash » 31 Mar 2018 23:59

Abhibhushan wrote:To celebrate completion of 65 years of commissioned service and 50 years since assuming my first command of an operational unit, visited the Flying Daggers for tea and crew room Gup.

The boys are all experienced pilots.
Boys come from varied backgrounds. M2K,Jaguar, Mig29, Mig27 are all represented. Soon there will be boys from SU30MKI as well. The boys were all very upbeat about their present mount.


Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than Unupgraded M2K
— talk about difficulties with maintenance exaggerated
— intensive operations tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might.
—if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.

A very happy day for me.


Thanks for sharing this, very heartwarming

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Apr 2018 00:48

who's the second one, Mig 29 or Mirage?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 01 Apr 2018 01:23

Trick question. A plane has a range of missions. Asking a pilot could focus on flying performance.
Let's be happy Tejas is tops bar none.

Rest is water under the bridge.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby John » 01 Apr 2018 01:49

Just a compilation of all the information regarding $$ the current price tag for LCA MK1A is 400 crore to put it in comparison Rafale current negotiated cost is around 1670 crores. Even M-2000 upgrade was around 344 crores (2013 figures).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Apr 2018 01:53

I look forward to the day when Rajat Pandit does that cost comparison

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 01 Apr 2018 03:05

Maybe its time for separate MCA and AMCA threads?

MCA needs a new name in BRF at least :mrgreen:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 01 Apr 2018 04:06

There is always the possibility that GE could pull the rug from under the program and refuse to supply the engines.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 01 Apr 2018 06:38

The real problem with Uttam is the internal politics. It will have to fight its way into the aircraft.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SSridhar » 01 Apr 2018 08:02

Abhibushan sir, thanks a lot for this authoritative post. Every ghost must be slain now and every doubter laid to rest.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pravula » 01 Apr 2018 08:40

shiv wrote:Linked below is an instrument that is used in humans in some instances. I wonder if a similar instrument can be designed to make the F 404 sized LCA accommodate the Al-31
https://cdn.naughtydelight.com/pub/medi ... lack-1.jpg


You jest, but we did try the same with Marut, didn't we?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 01 Apr 2018 08:49

Abhibushan saar, Congratulations on your spectacular anniversaries.
It was our fortune to spend so much time with you in Cupertino. Hope you come to bay area soon and we have a chance to meet.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shiv » 01 Apr 2018 09:21

pravula wrote:
shiv wrote:Linked below is an instrument that is used in humans in some instances. I wonder if a similar instrument can be designed to make the F 404 sized LCA accommodate the Al-31
https://cdn.naughtydelight.com/pub/medi ... lack-1.jpg


You jest, but we did try the same with Marut, didn't we?

No we didn't.
People keep asking if the Al-31 can be fitted into the Tejas instead of F-404


In cars this is possible. Not in aircraft
Image

Dimensions:
GE F-404
Length: 154 in (391 cm)
Diameter: 35 in (89 cm)
Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)


Al-31
Length: 494.2 cm (194.6 in)
Diameter: 93.2 cm (36.7 in) inlet
Dry weight: 1,636 kg (3,607 lb

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 01 Apr 2018 09:55

Abhibhushan sir,

Many congratulations on your anniversaries. Thank you for your service.


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