Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

[vasu raya]

So, can the development and certification of the FBW of a 4th gen aircraft be measured in the number of flight hours?

[srai]

So, can the development and certification of the FBW of a 4th gen aircraft be measured in the number of flight hours?

One can get rough estimates by looking at other programs like Rafale, EF-2000, and Gripen.

[deejay]

NO less than the VK Saraswat directly questioned the GE person in the open forum.

But we will be fooling ourselves by holding GE guilty for delay in Mk2. IT IS US: combination of MOD, MOF, IAF and HAL. Whoever could throw a spanner in the works, did.

The more you know the program, the more you can criticize it. But let’s keep the criticism to it can’t carry enough, can’t fly far enough, and can’t be produced fast enough.

In my book GE guys are " Besturds of the Slimiest order". All offence intended.

[deejay]

Iaf has already earmarked the second squadron for Tejas (the one with only iaf pvc earned).

Wow. That is a seriously big deal. Right DJ ?

Absolutely. Any new raising inherits the pedigree bestowed on it. 18 Sqn has a PVC pedigree. Touch the Sky with glory fellas.

[Vivek K]

India has everything to gain if Indians believe in themselves. Look at how far the space program has gone on a shoe string budget. Indians work best in adversity. Forget all imports, lets make the Tejas in numbers and at a higher rate.

[Haridas]

NO less than the VK Saraswat directly questioned the GE person in the open forum.

But we will be fooling ourselves by holding GE guilty for delay in Mk2. IT IS US: combination of MOD, MOF, IAF and HAL. Whoever could throw a spanner in the works, did.

The more you know the program, the more you can criticize it. But let’s keep the criticism to it can’t carry enough, can’t fly far enough, and can’t be produced fast enough.

In my book GE guys are " Besturds of the Slimiest order". All offence intended.

You called out accurately the nature of capitalist mil industrial complex of USA.

[suryag]

IR ji now that SP5 has taken to air, what is your prediction for the number of new SP birds that could take to year for the rest of the FY(until 31st March)

[Indranil]

No ji for me.

I expect SP8 and SP9 in quick time. SP9 will probably come out first. SP10 and SP11 before end of April'18. Just my guesstimates.

[ramana]

IR, These 4 are from both Hawk and Tejas lines?

Where does this stand wrt the IOC 20 planes?

[Indranil]

Yes: SP8 and SP11 are from the Tejas second line i.e. located where the Hawk line used to be. SP 9, SP 10 are from Line 1.

The first 20 will be all IOC-2 certified. They will be re-certified to FOC whenever that happens.

By the way, has anyone noticed why the dignitaries being given test flights at Kalaikunda, Jodhpur etc. Because the trainers belong to ADA and the test program. Those trainers are actually there as part of the detachments. There are no trainers in squadron service. Remember how much hulla the JF-17 wallas had made about the ease of flying JF-17 because they had no trainers! Our boys just keep their mouth shut and bear the abuse. I don't know why! Anyways, ADE is making an even higher fidelity simulator.

[Kartik]

IR, from what I had gathered looking at earlier programs on No.45, it seems that one of the trainers was actually in service with the squadron. Even the induction ceremony had 2 single seater SPs and 1 trainer PV. Had also read it somewhere in an article.

[Indranil]

Damn it Kartik, now you make me question myself! I will find out.

But no trainer has been delivered after IOC-2, has it?

[Kartik]

No, none has been delivered after the second trainer. But, one apparently is pretty much in service with No.45 now. Perhaps your sources could confirm.

[Rakesh]

While we figure out about the trainers, see this...

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 8850795520 ---> Can there be any doubt that the twin seat LCA is one of the finest looking fighter jets ever made?

[la.khan]

In the last few days/weeks, USAF & French air force generals went for a ride in Tejas. Any tweets/updates/news on how they felt about our bird? I don't recollect seeing any. Did I miss them?

[shiv]

In the last few days/weeks, USAF & French air force generals went for a ride in Tejas. Any tweets/updates/news on how they felt about our bird? I don't recollect seeing any. Did I miss them?

I have no update but I bet my left testimonial that they would simply have noticed like everyone else that it is pilot friendly and easy to fly. They are unlikely to have been able to throw it around to the maximum extent.

[disha]

While we figure out about the trainers, see this...

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 8850795520 ---> Can there be any doubt that the twin seat LCA is one of the finest looking fighter jets ever made?

Yes. The better looking one is its cousin NLCA. I do wish that NLCA MkII is sanctioned. Even if it results in 40 numbers, it is worth it. But again I am very biased.

Here it is

[JayS]

Damn it Kartik, now you make me question myself! I will find out.

But no trainer has been delivered after IOC-2, has it?

As per TSRaju, the SOP is not even frozen for the 4 Trainers on order.

[ramana]

He is whining. I am not happy with people taking potshots when it's a relay team in process.

If HAL can help offer it.

Don't crib

Obviously lots of tweaks going on.
Emphasis on Tejas not on trainer.
ADA is doing great job.

[nvishal]

In the last few days/weeks, USAF & French air force generals went for a ride in Tejas. Any tweets/updates/news on how they felt about our bird? I don't recollect seeing any. Did I miss them?

Have any of you guys ever wondered what this is aimed at?

Why are the US, Singapore and French chiefs flying on Tejas? What is the purpose?

Here is what I think is happening:
------------------------------------

The Chinese have gifted the j17 and its entire production line to the Pakistanis. J17s have already started rolling out from the pakistani assembly lines and have been sold to myanmar, Nigeria and the next possible customer is srilanka.

The j17 is successful is because it is cheap and the Pakistanis are willing to sell it to anyone who is willing to buy it. This is the birth of the chinese-pakistani industrial military complex.

The American are thinking that there is no way they could ever sell any American made jets to any of these states(because they cannot afford it). Unless the Americans can subsidize the sale.

This is where the proposal to shift the f16 production line to India comes into picture. The idea is that India will produce the f16(at rates cheaper than the US) and compete with the jf17.

The problem is that the Americans have figured out that the Indians will never accept the f16 proposal. So instead, they have started to vouch for the Tejas. With all these chiefs flying Tejas, they are attempting to build public confidence (as a potential export jet). The GE proposal to shift the f404 engine production to India(only assembly. Alloys will still be made and imported from US) attempts to fulfill dual purpose(f16 or Tejas).

[Rakesh]

AFAIK, the GE proposal is to shift the F414 engine to India and not the F404. And yes, screwdrivergiri onlee.

[ramana]

nvishal, Speculative posts should be in the strat forum US-India thread.

[Khalsa]

Ramana,

Agreed it was speculative post, but the question has been in my mind too. Let me make it simple.

The Tejas Rides

1) Are they driven by objective
OR
2) An outcome of the confidence

AND

1) Are they driven by HAL
OR
2) Are they driven by HAL and IAF
OR
3) Are they driven by IAF

[Rakesh]

Khalsa-ji: I edited your post above. I was confused for a second there.

[Rakesh]

Yes. The better looking one is its cousin NLCA. I do wish that NLCA MkII is sanctioned. Even if it results in 40 numbers, it is worth it. But again I am very biased.

Here it is

Yes Disha. I fully agree. The Naval LCA does look gorgeous. An absolute beauty....

[la.khan]

In the last few days/weeks, USAF & French air force generals went for a ride in Tejas. Any tweets/updates/news on how they felt about our bird? I don't recollect seeing any. Did I miss them?

Have any of you guys ever wondered what this is aimed at?

Why are the US, Singapore and French chiefs flying on Tejas? What is the purpose?

This is deep; I don't know if there is anything this deep drove them to take a ride in Tejas. However, you maybe right; we don't know at this point of time. What we know is that Tejas flew just once outside India, in Bahrain, generating a lot of buzz. The Americans & French wanted to see for themselves, first hand, what the deal is. As Shiv ji said, they may not have tested the plane in any way. For pushing the envelope, our test pilots know the best about Tejas

[shiv]

Typically air chiefs are flight line pilots who enjoy fighter flying and not test pilots or tech experts. And most air force chiefs unlike test pilots would not have flown all the aircraft or a very large variety of aircraft in a given air force. I suspect there is some pride in India where these people are being told "Here - have a ride in this - I betcha you have never flown anything this user friendly and safe. Ever."

[chetak]

Typically air chiefs are flight line pilots who enjoy fighter flying and not test pilots or tech experts. And most air force chiefs unlike test pilots would not have flown all the aircraft or a very large variety of aircraft in a given air force. I suspect there is some pride in India where these people are being told "Here - have a ride in this - I betcha you have never flown anything this user friendly and safe. Ever."

I have a feeling that the flights may have been triggered by Indian "requests" rather than anything else.

What earthly reason would any of these countries have to fly the tejas??.

Are they going to buy??, especially, when they have easy access to better and more compatible technologies with other platforms already in their inventories??

Constrained as it is, in its market reach, which is very heavily restricted by the use of the amreki engine.

Anyways, we "need" amreki permission to "export" to ANY market and that will not be forthcoming so easily.

[Cybaru]

I agree with Chetak. There may not be anything behind these trips. They are here, they get to fly. Plus if anything, IAF showcases Tejas which is F-16 equivalent plane, forcing it off the table. The more IAF/HAL showcase this gorgeous bird, the more they themselves buy into it..

[shiv]

I have a feeling that the flights may have been triggered by Indian "requests" rather than anything else.

Very likely - but an air chief is hardly likely to be allowed by their nation's diplomatic and security staff to fly anything considered unsafe so the flight is definitely an endorsement of a sort.

[Shankk]

but an air chief is hardly likely to be allowed by their nation's diplomatic and security staff to fly anything considered unsafe so the flight is definitely an endorsement of a sort.

Does that mean others in USAF or French AF have already flown Tejas? Where is this confidence stemming from? They are not going to recommend a platform to their chief without some kind of first hand experience?

As an extension, if this is true, I wonder who else in the world has flown Tejas other than IAF.

[chetak]

I have a feeling that the flights may have been triggered by Indian "requests" rather than anything else.

Very likely - but an air chief is hardly likely to be allowed by their nation's diplomatic and security staff to fly anything considered unsafe so the flight is definitely an endorsement of a sort.

We may be reading way too much into it.

The offer would not have been sprung on him all of a sudden but would have been made well in advance, through proper diplomatic channels, vetted appropriately by them and then accepted.

If such an offer is made and I am very sure that it was, it would be churlish to refuse.

That said, the question of "unsafe" simply does not arise.

An aircraft, in current production and also in squadron service, is no less or more "dangerous" than many of the clunkers that he may have flown in his long service career.

If some sort of endorsement was sought, why would the US airchief undercut the market for his own country's planes??

They are actively pushing the outmoded teens, hoping to con the natives.

he was just being a jolly good fellow, is all.

And he was more of a passenger because some senior IAF officer was doing all the heavy lifting during the flight, no??.

He may have "flown" the aircraft like ratan tata "flew" the F-16 or was it the F-18??

[shiv]

Very likely - but an air chief is hardly likely to be allowed by their nation's diplomatic and security staff to fly anything considered unsafe so the flight is definitely an endorsement of a sort.

We may be reading way too much into it.

You misunderstand. The air chief joyrider is not endorsing the Tejas. His taking a joyride can be used as an endorsement by Indians. If we don't, that would be silly. It is publicity, like journos and others riding Gripen or F-16

[Khalsa]

Khalsa-ji: I edited your post above. I was confused for a second there.

thank you Admiral Sir, yes was on the go at that time.
thank you looks awesome.

[Khalsa]

The air chief joyrider is not endorsing the Tejas. His taking a joyride can be used as an endorsement by Indians. If we don't, that would be silly. It is publicity, like journos and others riding Gripen or F-16

Finally !!
An answer I grasp and like.

Imagine HAL saying to Tatas-General and Adnanis-Gripen.

You fly desi maal in phoren planes
We fly phoren maal in desi planes

[chetak]

We may be reading way too much into it.

You misunderstand. The air chief joyrider is not endorsing the Tejas. His taking a joyride can be used as an endorsement by Indians. If we don't, that would be silly. It is publicity, like journos and others riding Gripen or F-16

Please clarify.

An endorsement of what, exactly??

It's safety??, It's superior capabilities??, It's fitness for export?? It's pilot friendly handling?

Did he give a testimonial?? or is he likely to??

Journos joyriding of fighters or doddering old men flying as passengers wind up endorsing the aircraft in some way. A puff piece in some unknown rag, the willingness to set up some factory to produce the aircraft or simply to be known as a great aviator or merely to polish up his reputation.

The aircraft is SAFE, in the limited context of a frontline fighter, it has no nasty quirks or prima donna behaviour, aerodynamically speaking. No questions about that. It needs no testimonials to attest to that fact. These facts are seen and is evident in the displays at airshows.

We can infer what we please. What happens, if at a later date, while talking to "friends", single malt in hand and many down the hatch, he says that it is a shitty aircraft and that video goes viral on the net??

[shiv]

Please clarify.

An endorsement of what, exactly??

It's safety??, It's superior capabilities??, It's fitness for export?? It's pilot friendly handling?

Did he give a testimonial?? or is he likely to??

Let be throw back at you the statement that you made

You are

reading way too much into it.

Not biting. You can answer all those questions yourself and I don't actually have to answer what sounds to me like a butt hurt interrogation just because someone did not toe your exact viewpoint.

Some firangi prominent people fly the Tejas. That is publicity. That is all. Nothing more You want to over analyse - do it yourself. You have yourself shown that you are reading too much into that statement. Why not let others do that too?

I am out of this right now.

[chetak]

Please clarify.

An endorsement of what, exactly??

It's safety??, It's superior capabilities??, It's fitness for export?? It's pilot friendly handling?

Did he give a testimonial?? or is he likely to??

Let be throw back at you the statement that you made

You are

reading way too much into it.

Not biting. You can answer all those questions yourself and I don't actually have to answer what sounds to me like a butt hurt interrogation just because someone did not toe your exact viewpoint.

Some firangi prominent people fly the Tejas. That is publicity. That is all. Nothing more You want to over analyse - do it yourself. You have yourself shown that you are reading too much into that statement. Why not let others do that too?

I am out of this right now.

wokay.

[Khalsa]

Lets move on shall we ?

[ramana]

You misunderstand. The air chief joyrider is not endorsing the Tejas. His taking a joyride can be used as an endorsement by Indians. If we don't, that would be silly. It is publicity, like journos and others riding Gripen or F-16

I think the eco-system is combating the negative perception by giving these joy rides.

Look at the fact that while journalists got joyrides in SEF candidates, its foreign Air Force senior officers that got joy rides on Tejas.

This reduces the nonsense in Desi media.