Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 11 May 2018 11:13

One wonders when the NLCA will arrive, earlier prototype found wanting.Anyway, these aircraft could do very well whether they're based on carriers or on land.I've been for long advocating a greater role for the IN in air defence of our islands, etc. Both Ru and the Chins have naval land based aircraft too.Like the maritime Jags, the NLCA could take over that role from them, leaving only BMos MKIs and hopefully Backfires, to do the heavy hitting at great range.The IAF will then have extra aircraft to counter the Sino- Pak JV .

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 11 May 2018 11:14

Rakesh wrote:Admiral :lol:

Cancelling the Vishal might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the Naval Tejas. The Navy cannot fund & maintain three different platforms --> MiG-29K, Naval Tejas and another carrier borne, multi-role fighter. That is insanity. With the Vishal eons away, the only option for the Navy now is make the MiG-29K work and complete development of the Naval Tejas. This will help in future carrier borne platforms i.e. Naval AMCA perhaps?

BTW, I found something interesting in the RFI document for 110 fighters. Page 61 of the document has a line that is intriguing ---> wing folding technology. Why does the Indian Air Force need aircraft whose wings can fold? To fit in a hardened shelter perhaps? Or is it for something else?

Indranil: Will the MiG-29K eventually work to the Navy's desire or not?


IMO they are looking at a single aircraft for IAF and IN. That's why. Rafale and F/A-18 are the real contenders, Once the single-engine restriction is gone. Others are just hoping against the hope. Earlier there was a plan to have two separate tenders for Single engine and twin engine. Now they must have fused the two for IAF and then get IN along. Scale would give economy.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 11 May 2018 13:43

But neither the Rafale or F-18 is suitable for our 2 exg. CVs and the 65K t beast has been dumped .

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 12 May 2018 06:17

The home grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is set to be equipped with Israeli super radars that will give it the combat edge to engage multiple air and ground targets simultaneously. Israeli firm ELTA is likely to shortly bag an order for a new set of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for an air force order of 83 LCA Mk 1A jets. The Israeli firm appears to have beat off competition from French firm Thales for the contract that has been in the works since 2016. Sources said that advanced negotiations are now on to finalise the contract at the earliest for early delivery of the combat enhanced jets to the Indian Air Force.

The ELTA radar is a derivate of the EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) that has also been equipped onboard the Jaguar DARIN III fighter jets of the airforce. It has been selected for the LCA program ahead of the French Thales RBE2 radar derivative. Earlier, other suitors including the Americans and Swedes dropped out of the competition.

The integration of an AESA radar is a pre requisite to the air force order that also mandates equipping the fighters with beyond visual range missiles and an electronic warfare suite. The radars give much more range and engagement potential to fighters, enabling them to engage targets from a distance without getting detected. The AESA will give the LCA an edge over fighter of a similar weight category that are operating in the region with conventional radars.

The Jaguar DARIN III is India’s first fighter jet to be equipped with AESA radars with 58 of them being integrated currently onto the fleet. The deep penetration fighter fleet got a big upgrade with the new radars, significantly increasing the air force’s capability to carry out cross border strikes.

AESA radars have replaced conventional systems at the heart of all modern fighter aircraft – be it the Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18 other than fifth generation jets like the F 22 and F 35.

Israeli super radars set to give desi LCA fighter jet enhanced combat capability
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 111919.cms

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shaun » 12 May 2018 11:09

EL/M- 2032 was for jaguar upgrade . Will 2052 fit into it ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 12 May 2018 11:41

Jaguar Ms have the 2032. Darin IIIs have the 2052s, IAF's first AESA in service.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 12 May 2018 15:37

Posts related to paper Jag moved to Design your own fighter thread. Please continue discussion there. And please stick to the thread discipline.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 13 May 2018 20:42

IR sir, can you reveal a little bit(only) about the good news you heard(apart from the 4000 sortie milestone)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 13 May 2018 22:39

About Gaganshakti, let it be. As IAF said, Tejas excelled in everything it was asked to do.

Squadron getting ready to move out of the aegis of HAL/ADA.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 13 May 2018 23:14

Indranil wrote:Squadron getting ready to move out of the aegis of HAL/ADA.


Sulur AFB is showing good progress on the Hangars on Google maps in comparison to older photos on Bing maps.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 14 May 2018 00:50

OT, but I want to say it - we need our own Area 51.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 14 May 2018 08:15

I always thought Wheeler Island or the Nicobars were our Area 51.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pravula » 14 May 2018 08:20

SaiK wrote:OT, but I want to say it - we need our own Area 51.

Well, we have IN saying why the frack should I fund a reactor that would be installed a IN's ship. You speak of Area 51. :rotfl:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tushar_m » 14 May 2018 09:10

Looks like " IAF planning to give Tejas MK1A a Meteor edge "

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 14 May 2018 09:32

tushar_m wrote:Looks like " IAF planning to give Tejas MK1A a Meteor edge "


That would be a death' knell for astra.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 14 May 2018 11:23

Pratyush wrote:
tushar_m wrote:Looks like " IAF planning to give Tejas MK1A a Meteor edge "


That would be a death' knell for astra.


Not really Meteor is too expensive to be the Only AAM, it is like saying Brahmos means SU-30 no longer carry Kh-31 or Bombs. It would nice to qualify Tejas with Meteor but Meteor will always be deployed in limited numbers due to cost.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 14 May 2018 12:05

The comparison between the metior for Tejas and between kh31 and Brahmos for su 30 is not really well founded.

When the most numerous fighter type to be in the IAF start's to support an imported competitor over a domestic product.( Astra mk2) The domestic product suffers in nearly all circumstances.

Also they are in the same class. So it makes little sense to buy it. The astra mk 2 can be qualified with very little effort and for all aircrafts of the IAF.

This will go a long way in building confidence of both designers and young officers of the IAF.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 14 May 2018 12:23

Who passed this hot air?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby rohan1424 » 14 May 2018 12:27

Don't the Chinese have access to EL 2052 aesa radar tech? Its better we integrate Thales RBE2 AESA radars on all home made fighters and ask Thales to manufacture them under make in India.Also ,Tejas role is point defense. What is the point in adding costly foreign BVR missile if indigenous option(Aastra) will be available?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 14 May 2018 12:38

Don't know what to say. Someone stating that Meteor is being qualified for Tejas IA- then someone says Astra is dead, we don't which radar is being selected for Tejas 1A , we dont whether Meteor can be integrated if El 2052 or Uttam are selected for TejasIA. Then now we have statement that Chinese have access to EL 2052. This is becoming a true CT thread.

And as a past experience IAF or every airforce tries to use maximum stores from 1 aircraft. Our M-2000 could fire R-73 missiles, that does not mean MICA is dead. And even though I have not seen any report on Chinese buying El 2052- even if they did , that does not mean the radar is useless. We regularly Exercise and Singapore Af sometimes Bases its F-16's in India, that does not weaken PAF- F-16's.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Chinmay » 14 May 2018 13:03

The Meteor discussion is probably from here

I think it is DDM at its finest.
The request for proposal has asked the aircraft to be equipped with a long range beyond visual range missile of the class of Meteor which can take out enemy aircraft in the range of more than 100 kilometres. This would help the LCA get an edge over the aircraft with adversaries," said government sources.


So 'sources' i.e. active imagination have prepared an RFP for a 'Meteor-class' i.e. BVR missile to equip the Tejas. I highly doubt the IAF wants the Meteor, given that the Derby is already integrated and Astra is well on its way. The cost of the missile is another matter :roll: :roll:
Last edited by Chinmay on 14 May 2018 13:49, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 14 May 2018 15:33

^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 14 May 2018 16:17

JayS wrote:^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.


Why not? This news would finally show the IAF is breaking out of its self-imposed mental shackles regarding the LCA, which ADA also goes along with (limiting it to two BVR for instance) and asking of it, what similar class fighters JAS-39 f.e. can equally achieve. What's the point of having a 150km class FCR if a corresponding missile armament is not available.
Similarly, I still don't see why a proper SPJ cannot be integrated on Mk1 as well. There is a LDP pod spot available.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 14 May 2018 17:11

And Further, Astra Mk2 will take a few years to Develop, so having the Ability to fire Meteor should not mean end of the road to Astra MK2. Which any way will be integrated with SU-30 MKI and hopefully Rafale also.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 14 May 2018 17:32

JayS wrote:^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.


I think IAF wants a standoff protection capability for the Tejas vs "5th" gen Chinese fighters ..that translates to meteor with aesa radar till the long range version of Astra is integrated with Mark 2

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 14 May 2018 17:36

Karan M wrote:
JayS wrote:^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.


Why not? This news would finally show the IAF is breaking out of its self-imposed mental shackles regarding the LCA, which ADA also goes along with (limiting it to two BVR for instance) and asking of it, what similar class fighters JAS-39 f.e. can equally achieve. What's the point of having a 150km class FCR if a corresponding missile armament is not available.
Similarly, I still don't see why a proper SPJ cannot be integrated on Mk1 as well. There is a LDP pod spot available.


I'll just wait for official word, that's it. It seems too much for too little for me at this moment.

I see problem with the way programs scope is ever kept expanding. Its like we never learned. I feel its too much work for little gain in short term when a lot of critical things are pending ADA's attention. May be in future, say post 2025 when we have MK2 and NLCA at hand, team LCA can go on to integrate every damn weapon and accessory available out there to LCA and copy pasting to all LCAs. Right now they should be focusing on getting the Mk1A, MK2 and NLCA up and running (Not including AMCA/Ghatak assuming teams for them are separate). IN has already got disappointed due to lack of attention from ADA on NLCA.

I think there will be no Mk1 eventually. All will be upgraded to Mk1A standard. The changes from Mk1 to MK1A are all easily portable. HAL has said that they can upgrade even the IOC batch to MK1A if IAF wants so. Also I have no doubt that LCA will be the most versatile platform with capability to handle all the weapons which all other fighters combined can handle.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Austin » 14 May 2018 17:50

Looks like fake news to me , we haven’t integrated meteor with mki or mirages and it’s a very expensive bvr would be limited to Rafale

Likely Tejas will carry Astra mk1 and later mk2

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 14 May 2018 18:04

JayS wrote:I'll just wait for official word, that's it. It seems too much for too little for me at this moment.

I see problem with the way programs scope is ever kept expanding. Its like we never learned. I feel its too much work for little gain in short term when a lot of critical things are pending ADA's attention. May be in future, say post 2025 when we have MK2 and NLCA at hand, team LCA can go on to integrate every damn weapon and accessory available out there to LCA and copy pasting to all LCAs. Right now they should be focusing on getting the Mk1A, MK2 and NLCA up and running (Not including AMCA/Ghatak assuming teams for them are separate). IN has already got disappointed due to lack of attention from ADA on NLCA. I think there will be no Mk1 eventually. All will be upgraded to Mk1A standard. The changes from Mk1 to MK1A are all easily portable. HAL has said that they can upgrade even the IOC batch to MK1A if IAF wants so. Also I have no doubt that LCA will be the most versatile platform with capability to handle all the weapons which all other fighters combined can handle.


Jay, its a scope change definitely but a relatively minor one. A Meteor class missile integrated with the FCR will pose integration challenges but is within the capability of the LCA team to achieve (if MBDA cooperates with Elta that is), and we can do the rest of the carriage trials, simulations etc.

But think of the possibilities that open up if the LCA gets Meteor. Guess what, suddenly all the BS about STR being 17 deg vs 18, of acceleration being whatever m/s sq. less than some unrealistic SQR, of Gs being 8 vs 9.. all become irrelevant.

With a Meteor, a proper EW suite & an AESA FCR, the LCA will suddenly become a deadly threat in BVR. I wouldn't be surprised if it also uses datalinks for stealthy ops and then packs of LCAs can become an effective counter to anything and everything from F-16s to Su-27s and J-XXs.

Most importantly, the IAF will no longer look at Gripen as something incredible.

The LCA needs more payload optimization and flexibility and more funding. The IAF is IMHO deliberately not very pushy with some LCA features, lest it scupper their MMRCA plans and ADA/HAL are content to potter around with limited aims so they don't have to burn the midnight oil beyond a point.

I want this chalta hain attitude to end from all stakeholders and MOD to take the lead in getting this done.

Its ridiculous that it took Manohar Parrikar to drive a Mk1A where one of the improvements is an external SPJ. Were all three IAF, ADA, HAL sleeping that they could not add an external pod to the existing Mk1 and decide on its need?

Adding a Meteor to the LCA is (finally) some common sensical behavior long overdue.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 14 May 2018 18:22

Tejas will mostly be facing off against the large aperture radars of the flankers and J20s on dpsa missions into india, and they all carry more missiles , higher power jammers and more persistance.

so a aesa radar and bvr combo whatever it is, needs to be good to trigger mission aborts and casualties before they get into the 50km range to start launching sat guided gliders or missiles.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 14 May 2018 19:40

Question is not whether LCA needs it or could use it, no arguments there. I am all for integrating every damn weapon available to IAF on LCA. After all that flexibility is the very beauty of having own desi fighter. Neither its question of capability to do it. Question is of when its needed and how program is being managed wrt criticality of milestones. And if you do it obviously human resources are engaged in that work which can always be used elsewhere. I just hope this kind of work doesn't end up delaying MK2. ADA/HAL ideally should aim to get MK2 ASAP to completely break the back of MMRCA-2 tamasha. ADA is not expanding as much as their work is. Hope they will not spread themselves too thin.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 15 May 2018 02:20

I agree JayS. Could be kite flying to delay.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 15 May 2018 02:30

Karan M wrote:
JayS wrote:^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.


Why not? This news would finally show the IAF is breaking out of its self-imposed mental shackles regarding the LCA, which ADA also goes along with (limiting it to two BVR for instance) and asking of it, what similar class fighters JAS-39 f.e. can equally achieve. What's the point of having a 150km class FCR if a corresponding missile armament is not available.
Similarly, I still don't see why a proper SPJ cannot be integrated on Mk1 as well. There is a LDP pod spot available.


There is a report of an RFQ for EW suite as well

http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2016/12/lca- ... tails.html

On December 15, 2016 HAL's Aircraft Research & Design Centre (ARDC) invited Request For Quotation (RFQ) for Supply of EW Suite for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Mk1A) Program.

The EW Suite would comprise of a digital RWR and podded jammer.

The following vendors were invited to quote.

Elbit systems, Israel
Elta systems, Israel
Saab, Sweden
Thales, France
Elettronica s.p.a, Italy
Raytheon, USA
Indra systems, Spain

Notably, no Russian company has been invited to bid for the project.

ARDC wants an EW Suite that can be integrated with other onboard avionics of LCA, including its AESA Radar and CMDS.

The RFQ is aimed at selecting a vendor for the supply of contemporary EW Suite including technical support for integration, ground/flight testing and certification.

HAL wants the selected vendor to supply 3 EW Suite for Trial Modification and certification phase and subsequently against anticipated orders for 80 aircraft sets for series production.

ToT
The selected vendor would need to enter into a ToT agreement at the appropriate time to enable HAL to undertake repair/and overhaul (ROH) / servicing of EW Suite and connected items at its facilities.

The selected vendor would need to enter into a ToT agreement to facilitate HAL to undertake phased manufacture of EW Suite systems at the appropriate stage.

Vendors would need to provide supplies and services needed for product support to HAL’s customers.

Order Quantity
Currently, there is an anticipated requirement for 80 EW Suite sets. Series production of LCA Mk-1A is expected to commence from year 2019. The production of EW Suite is planned to be executed in a phased manner as follows.

Phase-0: Direct purchase of 24 EW Suite sets in fully formed condition.
Phase-1: Manufacture of 08 EW Suite sets by HAL based on Semi Knocked Down (SKD) kits to be supplied by the vendor.
Phase-2: Manufacture of 48 EW Suite sets by HAL based on transfer of technology to HAL by the vendor.

IPR
HAL shall have exclusive worldwide sale and product support rights for the LCA Mk-1A aircraft or its variants fitted with the EW Suite being developed specifically for LCA Mk-1A program through the present RFQ. HAL shall also have the right to use the EW Suite or its adapted versions on any other airborne platform designed or produced by HAL for use by Indian defense customers.

IPR held by the vendor or his suppliers shall not in any way restrict or hamper by way of quantity or otherwise manufacturing of the EW Suite by HAL under ToT-MFG or Repair & Overhaul by HAL under ToT-ROH.

The vendor shall not sell the EW Suite being developed through this RFQ to any other customers or transfer the IPR of the system to any third party without prior written consent by HAL.

This clause shall continue to be in force for an indefinite period even after fulfillment of all activities and obligations covered under this RFQ.

Vendors are required to submit price quotations before February 15, 2017 and the final selection will be made before April 2017.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 15 May 2018 08:01

JayS wrote:^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.

They are probably referring to the Derby extended range variant saar

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 08:05

By the time Tejas Mk2 comes we will have a own Ramjet Meteor like AAM .DRDO is working on one.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby mody » 15 May 2018 15:24

The news report says a Meteor class missile or basically a 100 Km+ range BVR missile.
If required even AIM-120D can fulfil this role. The Derby-ER is being developed for this kind of role and
the Astra MK-II will be very similar to the Derby-ER.

Hopefully the LSP order of 50 Astra MK-1 gets executed fast and then a serial production order is placed as soon as possible.
Astra MK-I should be integrated with Tejas as soon as possible. Hopefully post FoC, it will taken up.
I am not to hopeful of Astra MK-II coming online anytime before 2021-22.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby manjgu » 15 May 2018 15:47

Did i read somewhere that Meteor is too big for LCA??

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 17:41

Cain Marko wrote:
JayS wrote:^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.

They are probably referring to the Derby extended range variant saar


I remember once Tejas FB admin confirmed that ER version is given for LCA. Can't remember if its already in work or it will follow.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 17:43

Cybaru wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Why not? This news would finally show the IAF is breaking out of its self-imposed mental shackles regarding the LCA, which ADA also goes along with (limiting it to two BVR for instance) and asking of it, what similar class fighters JAS-39 f.e. can equally achieve. What's the point of having a 150km class FCR if a corresponding missile armament is not available.
Similarly, I still don't see why a proper SPJ cannot be integrated on Mk1 as well. There is a LDP pod spot available.


There is a report of an RFQ for EW suite as well

http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2016/12/lca- ... tails.html



Karan is referring to MK1. The one you point out is for MK1A. Its one of the 4 key changes from MK1 > MK1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 17:44

Cain Marko wrote:
JayS wrote:^^ I don't believe this news about Meteor for LCA. I'll wait until some official word from Team LCA.

They are probably referring to the Derby extended range variant saar


You are right, I think. I missed "meteor-class" given previous posts saying meteor integration.


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