Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 08 Mar 2018 12:04

Now that the Tejas stands tall on the shoulders of giants, with only one of those giants being the Hon. Raksha Mantri Nirmala Sitharaman, I'd like to share the video of LCA's first flight once more, when so many fell in love with it and the people around it at first sight, when it hadn't been named Tejas yet but it may as well have been named Hope, because that's what it represented, when the letters K and H adorned the aircraft to celebrate another giant by the name Dr. Kota Harinarayana, when YouTube didn't exist and you had to download the video file from ADA's website - a large file that had you waiting anxiously for the download to complete, in anticipation of the treasure it could contain and did it!

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Mar 2018 12:22

ramana wrote:Vivek K is right. Now the delay card is being flashed from usual sources.

HAL has set up 5/year line, added 3/year line. Then the new 8/year line is coming up.
So this is 16/year when it comes through.

RM has said they want 24/year. i.e. 8/year line needed.

HAL second line costs 1350 crores.
This is peanuts for RM to fund. PSU banks scam can fund 10 such lines a year.

To achieve this need to add a third line but also build up the supply chain for the parts and engines etc.

Not easy and they comes after that.

US had to merge aerospace companies in the late 1980s to handle the excess capacity.

I think better option is to have surge capacity in the new second line to handle faster build rate as biggest bottle neck will be the aircraft assembly.

sanjayC, No private builder will give mfg warranty for someone else product. Please think like a private sector person.

Look at the M777 JIC outcome. Both are blaming each other when the shell broke up in the barrel.

Maybe rise funds for the third line as a contractor owned but HAL operated production line.

And after that the contractor can absorb the personnel and become a second source for aircraft as they have trained assembly workers?

Dont forget that RM has exports target as set by PM.
Export orders can justify a third line capable of both domestic/export variants.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 08 Mar 2018 13:28

ArjunPandit wrote:^^oh ok, i thought you meant it is to attack the guys across the fence at khemkaran, and i meant to say that this baby will find its way to sargodha ..

ah okay sorry my bad.
Yes indeed .... Tejas will doing sudden strikes on Quetta, Lahore, Sargodha and Inshallah Islamabad too.

Honestly I had real trouble spotting the four tejas in that pic.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 08 Mar 2018 14:11

Gagan wrote: Let us not beat around the bush and give it to a private player, who is an international player.

Gagan, take it FWIW (got it over chai-biskoot with an experienced designer of ships). This is a very small summary, the topic seems complex and I did not want to step out of line. The way Indian defense contracts to private sector works is that for the amount of the contract, the private sector is made to furnish bank guarantees of equivalent amount. Eg: I was curious on why Pipavav and even Kattupalli struggled. Navy was not happy with the processes of these companies that owned these world-class facilities, due to their usual private sector rolling around of funds into non-defense arms etc, which caused long-lead time procurement anxieties. After a few delays, Navy encashed the guarantees, leaving these companies gutted and struggling. Apparently, ABG was the best in deliveries and even they are struggling.

So why would Tejas saga be any different, if the private player who is to assemble Tejas, is part of a bigger consortium with needs for daily capital that cant be locked up by such bank guarantees? I asked why this is so and the answer was that "private players are not exactly that jingoistic that they can forget, they need to survive against day-to-day competitors in other sectors". The only people who has such deep pockets are a handful of Reliance, Adanis, Tatas etc and they are only now getting into this via acquisitions and offset routes. So a private line might not be that easy to implement, unless some new tweaks of the existing process happens and smaller, specialist integrators can come up over next 10-20 years

I think HAL will do a decent job, given time and push

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Mar 2018 17:23

In the case of Pipavav, and the Navy's OPV project of 6 or 7 ships they were given to build.
They built 1.5 ships and then the company went bust. All construction stopped and the Navy went in for the kill
In the meantime, the owners of Pipavav were trying to raise money from everywhere.
Reliance brought out Pipavav, and is now completing the ships after discussions with the Navy.

Blame, GoI Arachic rules for hemming private industry from taking flight in India. Every and which possible rule is pulled out of the musharraf to prevent a private player from manufacturing, and supplying. Meanwhile Govt owned factories put out mostly average or below average quality stuff with huge time overruns and cost.

If I'm not mistaken, defence production is the Biggest manufacturing Industry in India. Most of it is with the Government.The quality is mostly much less than outstanding.
HAL is a PSU and is no different. Things happen, but they take so much time with so much paperbazi. With HAL one has to have a LOT of patience, if one may say so. The organization does not have a mandate to attend to a customer's needs in a time bound manner.

I will stop here. There is more, but I will stop here.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 08 Mar 2018 18:41

Katare wrote:It does not get anymore authentic than this....

HAL Production of Su30MKI, LCA, ALH, Hawk and Do-228

the link takes to some irrelevant fact. Can the excerpt be posted?

prat.patel · Post by **prat.patel** » 08 Mar 2018 23:25

PratikDas wrote:Now that the Tejas stands tall on the shoulders of giants, with only one of those giants being the Hon. Raksha Mantri Nirmala Sitharaman, I'd like to share the video of LCA's first flight once more, when so many fell in love with it and the people around it at first sight, when it hadn't been named Tejas yet but it may as well have been named Hope, because that's what it represented, when the letters K and H adorned the aircraft to celebrate another giant by the name Dr. Kota Harinarayana, when YouTube didn't exist and you had to download the video file from ADA's website - a large file that had you waiting anxiously for the download to complete, in anticipation of the treasure it could contain and did it!

Thank you!!! Thank you so much for sharing this !!!!!

I am seeing this for the first time. I was a 22 year old ignorant kid when this momentous event took place. What a proud feeling I was having while watching this video. Even though it was so much in past I could not stop applauding when the bird took off and touched back down. My 7 year old thought I was crazy and was asking why am I so exited over a fighter jet taking off and landing back

One day when he is bit more older I will explain him.
Hats off to Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal! We often associate bravery to deeds in battlefield. But this was no less of a brave deed. Going up in a airframe or platform that had never gone up; that takes a lot of b**ls!
Immense service to the nation by that entire team of ADA, HAL, IAF, DRDO who made that first flight possible!

Thanks and salute to everyone!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Mar 2018 00:15

From the Tejas FB page

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 09 Mar 2018 01:00

fanne wrote:
Katare wrote:It does not get anymore authentic than this....

HAL Production of Su30MKI, LCA, ALH, Hawk and Do-228
the link takes to some irrelevant fact. Can the excerpt be posted?

The website takes you to the front page I think. If you want to look at original, go to the link select Mi9nstry of defense and set date to January 3 2018. Here is the press release for lazy bugs -

Ministry of Defence

Production of Aircrafts

Posted On: 03 JAN 2018 3:43PM by PIB Delhi

Since inception, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has been engaged in design & development, manufacture, upgrade and repair / overhaul of fighters, trainers transport aircraft, helicopters, engines, avionics systems & accessories for the requirement of the Defence Services. So far, HAL has indigenously designed & developed 17 types of aircraft / helicopters consisting of three fighter aircrafts including ongoing platform of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Tejas, Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH)-DHRUV and Chetak / Cheetal Helicopter.

Additionally, under Transfer of Technology (ToT) with foreign Original Equipment manufacturers (OEMs), 14 platforms have been manufactured in the country by HAL consisting of 8 categories of fighter aircraft including ongoing manufacturing program of Su-30 MKI.

The annual production capacity of HAL along with the ongoing contract cost (product-wise) is detailed below:

S. No.

Product

Annual production capacity

Value of ongoing contracts / current status

1.

Su-30 MKI

12

Rs.59420 crores for 182 aircraft and 153 have been produced so far.

2.

Hawk MK 132

16

Existing orders completed in 2016-17.

3.

Do-228

06

Rs.1090 crores for 14 aircraft and 12 have been produced so far.

4.

LCA TEJAS

08

Rs.2702 crores for 20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) aircraft and Rs.5989 crores for 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) aircraft. 6 aircraft are produced so far.

5.

ALH

24

Rs.13799 crores for 159 helicopter of which 154 have been produced so far.

6.

Cheetal

08

Rs.203 crores for 10 helicopters, which taken up for production.

HAL produced fighter / trainer / transport aircraft, helicopter and associated systems & sub-systems do not fall under the category of weapons / arms / ammunition.

In order to fast track the production of LCA from existing 8 aircraft to 16 aircraft per annum Government of India has approved an investment of Rs.1,381.04 Crores, against which HAL has already started the development activities. Su-30 MKI programme is on the verge of completion; hence, there is no plan to augment the production facilities for this platform.

The following steps have been taken by HAL to ensure timely and enhanced production of LCA aircraft.

• Establishment of second line for structural and equipping activities at Aircraft Division, HAL.

• Reduction in manufacturing cycle time through improved supply chain management, learning and augmentation of manpower.

• Established contracts for outsourcing of major modules namely Front fuselage, Centre fuselage, Rear fuselage, Wing and various sub-assemblies to private partners.

This information was given by Raksha Rajya Mantri Dr. Subhash Bhamrein a written reply to Prof.Saugata Roy and Shri Innocentin LokSabha today.

NAo/Nampi/DK/Rajib

(Release ID: 1515211) Visitor Counter : 478

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2018 01:26

This has to be catalogued for price values. Also, I din't realize that almost all of Dhruv's ordered have been delivered.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2018 01:38

Katare, Thanks so much.

This is much clearer than the many statements from HAL.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 09 Mar 2018 02:26

Kartik wrote:From the Tejas FB page

This looks like LCA already has a CFT (it is not CFT in true definition, but a very fat spine to hold fuel, avionics etc.). Mig 29 reached this stage only recently, almost 40 years after induction and many version. Similar is story of F-16. LCA is there from it's first iteration.
LCA mk 2 will make it more streamlined.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 09 Mar 2018 02:30

what a beauty

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 09 Mar 2018 03:17

Just for the record this is the press release link that mentions HAL's production numbers:

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1515211

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 09 Mar 2018 03:31

Indranil wrote:This has to be catalogued for price values. Also, I din't realize that almost all of Dhruv's ordered have been delivered.

How would you explain the cost jumping from $21M/plane in IOC to $48M/plane in FOC. Both orders were for 20 aircrafts. Seems a lot of spare parts and overhaul/maintenance infrastructure built into the second order. May also have weapons included in the second order?

LCA would be very-very competitive platform in the export market too, at these unit costs it's a steal!!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 09 Mar 2018 03:42

ramana wrote:Katare, Thanks so much.

This is much clearer than the many statements from HAL.

Just got lucky!

OT here but look at the cost of cheetal @$1.6M/Helicopter. I think we should keep investing in it, if we can make them this cheap on HAL's fully depreciated mfg lines. Cheetal mk1A and mk2 seems better idea as interim filler till LUH is available than spending $1 Billion in buying Russian kits for screw drivergiri.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2018 03:55

Katare wrote:
Indranil wrote:This has to be catalogued for price values. Also, I din't realize that almost all of Dhruv's ordered have been delivered.
How would you explain the cost jumping from $21M/plane in IOC to $48M/plane in FOC. Both orders were for 20 aircrafts. Seems a lot of spare parts and overhaul/maintenance infrastructure built into the second order. May also have weapons included in the second order?

LCA would be very-very competitive platform in the export market too, at these unit costs it's a steal!!

Yeah the second one comes with PBL guarantee. I don't know what other things are part of the deal. Our hands are tied with the Mirages, but it does show what 50M can buy if we go domestic vs foreign.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Mar 2018 07:10

^^^
Roughly speaking, PBL type of support x-number of years with % servicibility guarantee and related infrastructure costs as much as the price of the “fly-away” plane. That would mean Mk.1 fly away costs would be around $25 million mark.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2018 07:21

Also USAF was complaining about upgrade costs for early version F35 flying since 2006. Apparently all from software changes. Not much hardware changes.
Similarly the FOC versions could have software intensive changes.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Mar 2018 07:31

^^^
Not all software changes can be applied though. EF and Rafale had those same issues between earlier batches and the latest batches. Typically, each batch/tranche has its own software upgrade roadmap from what I understand.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 09 Mar 2018 11:20

SU30 line is also done with nearly all units, it could/should be ramped down to 20% and the facility could be tooled for additional TEJAS line capacity

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2018 11:35

Exactly, my thoughts. Won't happen under this current chairman though. Just saying!

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 09 Mar 2018 12:26

srai wrote:^^^
Roughly speaking, PBL type of support x-number of years with % servicibility guarantee and related infrastructure costs as much as the price of the “fly-away” plane. That would mean Mk.1 fly away costs would be around $25 million mark.

25 mil is almost half of the unit cost of 48 mil. Does PBL support add that much to the cost ?

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 09 Mar 2018 12:46

Katare wrote:LCA would be very-very competitive platform in the export market too, at these unit costs it's a steal!!

Ah the most intensive use any export customer is going to have for the LCA would be to scramble & intercept a passenger plane accidentally sending out a mayday call. IAF needs LCA to fight wars; other countries buy fighter jets as decorative/shakinaw pieces, mostly.

Which means that it won't be the capability of the aircraft which will win the export order. It is the glossy presentations, smart salesmen and saleswomen, all paid junkets to nice destinations, maybe a kickback or two (at arms length via an agent of course), fancy simulators and white glove support. Is HAL up to the mark?

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 09 Mar 2018 14:43

Singapore is supposedly interested in the Tejas despite their ability to buy just about any top of the line western fighter.

I doubt its because of performance or lower price...

More so perhaps a geopolitical considerations.

That being said, their tiny geographic size makes them the ideal customer for a point defence fighter.

Now here is a progressive proposal :

Tejas software should be made open source to trusted foreign partners like Singapore & Vietnam.

I'm not talking about the flight control software (which cannot be monkeyed with) but rather the software enabling sub-system add-ons and network integration.

It will enable these countries to integrate their own locally designed weapons and other sub-system of their choice onto the Tejas.

This as opposed to the way India has to beg Russia for source codes to integrate any non-Russian system on board their planes. They relent eventually but not before presenting India with a large bill.

India should aid these countries to a certain extent with verification and validation of their add-ons.

This makes the Tejas a very attractive platform to our strategic friends.

ADA should definitely factor in open source, third party add-on capability as part of MK2's system architecture.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Mar 2018 15:05

Neshant wrote:Now here is a progressive proposal :

Tejas software should be made open source to trusted foreign partners like Singapore & Vietnam.

I'm not talking about the flight control software (which cannot be monkeyed with) but rather the software enabling sub-system add-ons and network integration.

It will enable these countries to integrate their own locally designed weapons and other sub-system of their choice onto the Tejas.

This as opposed to the way India has to beg Russia for source codes to integrate any non-Russian system on board their planes. They relent eventually but not before presenting India with a large bill.

India should aid these countries to a certain extent with verification and validation of their add-ons.

This makes the Tejas a very attractive platform to our strategic friends.

ADA should definitely factor in open source, third party add-on capability as part of MK2's system architecture.

Here's my idea. If they want the platform then why not charge them $$$$ to integrate every single thing they want to integrate. Why give it away to a third party?

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Mar 2018 15:28

Trikaal wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Roughly speaking, PBL type of support x-number of years with % servicibility guarantee and related infrastructure costs as much as the price of the “fly-away” plane. That would mean Mk.1 fly away costs would be around $25 million mark.
25 mil is almost half of the unit cost of 48 mil. Does PBL support add that much to the cost ?

HAL quoted Unit price was around that much Rs 160 crore couple of years ago, which at the rate of that time was around $25 million.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 09 Mar 2018 17:04

Neshant wrote:Singapore is supposedly interested in the Tejas despite their ability to buy just about any top of the line western fighter.

I doubt its because of performance or lower price...

More so perhaps a geopolitical considerations.

That being said, their tiny geographic size makes them the ideal customer for a point defence fighter.

Now here is a progressive proposal :

Tejas software should be made open source to trusted foreign partners like Singapore & Vietnam.

I'm not talking about the flight control software (which cannot be monkeyed with) but rather the software enabling sub-system add-ons and network integration.

It will enable these countries to integrate their own locally designed weapons and other sub-system of their choice onto the Tejas.

This as opposed to the way India has to beg Russia for source codes to integrate any non-Russian system on board their planes. They relent eventually but not before presenting India with a large bill.

India should aid these countries to a certain extent with verification and validation of their add-ons.

This makes the Tejas a very attractive platform to our strategic friends.

ADA should definitely factor in open source, third party add-on capability as part of MK2's system architecture.

Open source is a vague term. In no shape or form should we give away actual source code (in a form that Richard Stallman would approve of) to anybody else. OTOH, what should be done is build on an open architecture and open interfaces/APIs to let virtually any third party integration take place and deep integration at that. Avoids compromising our IP and security and avoids potential customers from having the 'full Russian customer service experience'

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 09 Mar 2018 17:11

A noob question. For the MK1A testing vehicle, will an existing LSP be modified to a MK1A or a new MK1A be produced from one of existing HAL lines currently producing MK1 SPs?

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 09 Mar 2018 20:18

Neshant wrote:Singapore is supposedly interested in the Tejas despite their ability to buy just about any top of the line western fighter.

I doubt its because of performance or lower price...

More so perhaps a geopolitical considerations.

That being said, their tiny geographic size makes them the ideal customer for a point defence fighter.

Now here is a progressive proposal :

Tejas software should be made open source to trusted foreign partners like Singapore & Vietnam.

I'm not talking about the flight control software (which cannot be monkeyed with) but rather the software enabling sub-system add-ons and network integration.

It will enable these countries to integrate their own locally designed weapons and other sub-system of their choice onto the Tejas.
.

IMHO Trusted foriegn partner is an oxymoron.
Which country has locally developed aircraft weapons of consequence? AFAIK not Singapore, Vietnam, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina .... Nigeria, Phillipines or even pakistan.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 09 Mar 2018 20:20

Manish Jain wrote:A noob question. For the MK1A testing vehicle, will an existing LSP be modified to a MK1A or a new MK1A be produced from one of existing HAL lines currently producing MK1 SPs?

The question was answered on one of the Tejas thread in last one month.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 09 Mar 2018 20:32

srai wrote:
Trikaal wrote: 25 mil is almost half of the unit cost of 48 mil. Does PBL support add that much to the cost ?
HAL quoted Unit price was around that much Rs 160 crore couple of years ago, which at the rate of that time was around $25 million.

Yes but that was for IOC config, FOC adds additional stuff so the cost is bound to go up.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Mar 2018 20:34

^^^You mean object codes. That is what the US provided the UAE for the Block 60s.

Read the Political Issues section here

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/th ... eet-04538/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Mar 2018 20:42

Haridas wrote:SU30 line is also done with nearly all units, it could/should be ramped down to 20% and the facility could be tooled for additional TEJAS line capacity

What are the agreements we have reached with Russia to keep separate factories at totally separate locations exclusively for Russian sourced aircraft? Do you (or anyone else) have the details - because IIRC the Russians insisted on physically separate units - or else the idea would IMO be absurd.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 09 Mar 2018 22:55

We have 30 or so left from 272 order. It is 3 years (12*3). If indeed extra 40 have been order, it is another three years. So even if we can convert, it can be only after 6 years. Till then full capacity is needed to deliver SU30MKI.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 09 Mar 2018 23:11

IMVVHO we should keep the SU30MKI line open through the next 10 years, if need be, at lowest viable levels, maybe 6 or 4 per year. This will provide updated replacement and keep numbers up. The rest of the capacity should be used to upgrade those in service. By the time we finish with upgrading the current version, it will be time for another revision. So SU30MKI line would not be available and fresh additional line should be added for 3rd line if Tejas. For diversification of risk, third line should be in another city, maybe Nashik.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Mar 2018 00:02

shiv wrote:
Haridas wrote:SU30 line is also done with nearly all units, it could/should be ramped down to 20% and the facility could be tooled for additional TEJAS line capacity
What are the agreements we have reached with Russia to keep separate factories at totally separate locations exclusively for Russian sourced aircraft? Do you (or anyone else) have the details - because IIRC the Russians insisted on physically separate units - or else the idea would IMO be absurd.

Reducing number of one fighter to increase another is counter productive when we talk of slowing down well oiled line to be replaced with an upcoming line. IAF already is in bad shape due to reducing numbers. How many years Su-30 line at 20% capacity would take to deliver remaining 30% jets...? It would be more prudent to get done with Su-30 production and then shift resources for LCA, if at all its even possible given the point raised by shiv here. We need to hike capacity of MRO/MLU for Su-30 so some of the resources/manpower from this line would be shifted there. Other part was to take care of FGFA. Another issue is of logistics of supplies. Why not just make another line in HAL, BLR itself if at all we want one more..? It would be much more easy, cost effective and time effective.

But why do HAL needs one more line..? Once the sub-assembly work is fully taken up by Tier-1 suppliers, obviously HAL's work load would be reduced from current levels and that freed up capacity can be put into final assembly operations, increasing number of parallel assembly stations and output rate. Currently 70% workload is outsources of the targeted 80%. The suppliers would take a while to get in the rhythm and bring that 70% into reality. After that HAL can focus more on assembly, no..??

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 10 Mar 2018 00:25

Is it me or the spine is really fat. I doubt the initial LSP were that. Is this a new development? Maybe more fuel and other stuff?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Mar 2018 00:38

Indranil wrote:Exactly, my thoughts. Won't happen under this current chairman though. Just saying!

Why say that? this HAL chairman has done a lot to ensure the Tejas line is operational and the LUH line.

The Su 30 MKI line in Nashik has its own constraints.
Opening the Tejas they will end in mixed mode operations.
The line is geared for Russian aircraft manufacture: tooling, procedures etc.

So you will end up spending a lot more than another green field line for Tejas in Karnataka.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Mar 2018 01:02

But as the Su-30 production draws to an end in 3 years or so, what would you do with that facility? The HTT-40 will be built in Kanpur.