Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Indranil
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Indranil »

They have been studying canards for the past 20 years. In the last 5 years, they have done a lot of CFD analysis. Now they have finalized the shape of the canard, and are going for wind tunnel testing.

In terms of FCS, they are very confident. It is a close coupled canard and no different from the active slats and active LEVCON.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by JayS »

Vivek K wrote:
Indranil wrote:It is not a must. But having atleast one pair of tail planes helps. Mk2 will have canards.
So the MK2 will come, with canards!
Sure thing.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Indranil wrote:They have been studying canards for the past 20 years. In the last 5 years, they have done a lot of CFD analysis. Now they have finalized the shape of the canard, and are going for wind tunnel testing.

In terms of FCS, they are very confident. It is a close coupled canard and no different from the active slats and active LEVCON.
Is this the reason why the mk 2 was taking so long to finalize?
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Indranil wrote:They have been studying canards for the past 20 years. In the last 5 years, they have done a lot of CFD analysis. Now they have finalized the shape of the canard, and are going for wind tunnel testing.

In terms of FCS, they are very confident. It is a close coupled canard and no different from the active slats and active LEVCON.
Any reason they dropped the levcons ala NLCA. It seemed like a great idea and they had some real experience with it
Indranil
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Indranil »

Pratyush wrote:
Indranil wrote:They have been studying canards for the past 20 years. In the last 5 years, they have done a lot of CFD analysis. Now they have finalized the shape of the canard, and are going for wind tunnel testing.

In terms of FCS, they are very confident. It is a close coupled canard and no different from the active slats and active LEVCON.
Is this the reason why the mk 2 was taking so long to finalize?
No. Bureaucracy, turf war, SEF, ... As I said earlier, everybody who could throw a spanner, did!
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Pratyush »

The sabotage article linked by Ramana must be made a compulsory reading for all BRF members to understand Indian defence procurement.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Indranil »

Cain Marko wrote:
Indranil wrote:They have been studying canards for the past 20 years. In the last 5 years, they have done a lot of CFD analysis. Now they have finalized the shape of the canard, and are going for wind tunnel testing.

In terms of FCS, they are very confident. It is a close coupled canard and no different from the active slats and active LEVCON.
Any reason they dropped the levcons ala NLCA. It seemed like a great idea and they had some real experience with it
The levcons were designed for a separate purpose. They were not designed to expand the flight envelope of LCA. When an aircraft comes into land on an aircraft carrier, it is a culmination of many undesired effects. The plane should be flying slow, but sinking fast. So, it's like the slow pass that you see in airshows. Except you are descending and have to touchdown precisely in the area of the size of a helipad. So the control margins required are extremely high. The Levcons were designed to provide the same. There were some secondary advantages too.

The canards on LCA will allow envelop expansion beyond what is possible with LCA Mk1/1A.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by kit »

"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "

The above quote is from Janes by Rahul Bedi . What does this mean ?.. LCA is not a battle close support aircraft FOR all we know ! One can imagine the weight penalty that goes with armoring up a fighter interdictor
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by ramana »

Let's do some reality check.
7.62mm rounds have a range of 1 km.

Does CAG and Rahul Bedi think Tejas will be flying. that range?

Protecting against all projectiles will makes it heavy and as two legged cheetah or like an armored bullock cart..
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Indranil »

kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "

The above quote is from Janes by Rahul Bedi . What does this mean ?..
It means you are reading DEsh Drohi Media (DDM)!
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by NachiketM »

Vivek K wrote:
Indranil wrote:It is not a must. But having atleast one pair of tail planes helps. Mk2 will have canards.
So the MK2 will come, with canards!
Initially there were design plans with canards for the LCA which were later abandoned... Heres a wing tunnel model of the same ...

https://imgur.com/f9eNUlh
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Indranil »

That one is not a canard, nor is it a LEvcon :wink:

From a few decades back
Image
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Rakesh »

IR, noob pooch. In your opinion, how good can a Tejas Mk2 replicate the role of a Jaguar with Darin III upgrade? Also, do you think, the Mk2 would be a good replacement for the upgraded Mirage 2000s and the MiG-29UPG?
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Indranil »

Mk2 will easily trump upgraded Jaguar and Mirage 2000s. FRankly, technologically the two are playing catch up to the Mk1A now. Mk2 is much more multirole than the Mig-29UPG. I cannot assess how a air2air duel between the two will play out. Mig-29s envelop is wider than the LCA, but it takes enormous pilot skill to fly it at that envelop and engage targets at the same time.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Perfect. You answered my question. Thank you so much. Now back to SEF thread :)
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Viv S »

Indranil wrote:Mk2 will easily trump upgraded Jaguar and Mirage 2000s.
Does it make sense to re-engine the Jags then? After all, they're scheduled to begin retirement in 2026, about the same time that the Mk2 should be coming online.

Also, are we sure the Mk2 program has been green-lighted? As I recall, there was some uncertainty a while back with many saying that it had been shelved (in favour of the SEF presumably).
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Rakesh »

I *NOW* know why Dileep Saar said that ADA is sitting with a smug face (about the Mk2). Wow!
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:Not officially. But it has leaked out enough number of times now and in enough number of places for for me to speak about it.
So did any of your sources confirm that ADA and NAL designers and aerodynamics people are indeed closely looking at canards? I'm guessing that they're still studying it and that it hasn't been decided for sure?

I suppose the configuration for the Tejas Mk2 hasn't yet been frozen if that's the case.

added later: I saw your next post stating that the canard size and position is now decided and they're now going to be going in for wind tunnel tests. I hope some images of this new configuration are revealed. Very curious to see how the AF Tejas Mk2 is shaping up now.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by ramana »

Viv S wrote:
Indranil wrote:Mk2 will easily trump upgraded Jaguar and Mirage 2000s.
Does it make sense to re-engine the Jags then? After all, they're scheduled to begin retirement in 2026, about the same time that the Mk2 should be coming online.

Also, are we sure the Mk2 program has been green-lighted? As I recall, there was some uncertainty a while back with many saying that it had been shelved (in favour of the SEF presumably).
Yes. Re-engining them gives extra power and makes them useful. Right now they are very anemic.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Indranil »

Viv S wrote:
Indranil wrote:Mk2 will easily trump upgraded Jaguar and Mirage 2000s.
Does it make sense to re-engine the Jags then? After all, they're scheduled to begin retirement in 2026, about the same time that the Mk2 should be coming online.

Also, are we sure the Mk2 program has been green-lighted? As I recall, there was some uncertainty a while back with many saying that it had been shelved (in favour of the SEF presumably).
1. I favour re-engining the Jaguars. 2026-2030 is still a decade away. No point throwing away good airframes.

2. Mk2 is happening :D
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Kartik »

I truly feel a surge of happiness hearing that the LCA AF Mk2 (as its called by ADA) is happening. :D With canards and the newly shaped curved canopy, it'll be one heck of a beauty. I seriously hope to see a wind tunnel model image. Hope ADA is listening!

The scaling up of the aerospace industry in India is now so visible, with 2 fighter programs going on simultaneously, a 4+ generation fighter and a 5th generation fighter. Historic for India. and for those who feel that its not a good use of resources, well the arguments for going with the Tejas Mk2 simply outweigh any risks. AMCA will take time to mature, whereas the Tejas Mk1A and the Mk2 will fill in big gaps that will be left by retiring squadrons.

The experience that will be built up, the number of technologies and upgrades that will need to be developed over their lifetime, weapons, avionics..the list is huge. The business case for investing large sums in perfecting the Kaveri turbofan and being able to initiate other turbofan engine projects will only be possible with hundreds of indigenous fighters coming in.

And the opportunities for Indian labs and industry, both private and public, to become large scale players and possibly develop solutions that can be exported..this will be a poster child for Make in India, really.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Cybaru »

kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "
There are planes that are not vulnerable to 7.62 rounds?? Apart from the A-10 that is. :eek: :shock:
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Viv S »

ramana wrote:Yes. Re-engining them gives extra power and makes them useful. Right now they are very anemic.
Indranil wrote:1. I favour re-engining the Jaguars. 2026-2030 is still a decade away. No point throwing away good airframes.
Well, we have to sign a deal with Honeywell, carry out the necessary mods and then install the engines. Assuming the contract is signed next year, it'll probably be 2022-23 by the time the first re-engined aircraft enters service, if not later. The last one should probably be around 2025. Which seem a waste for an aircraft that has only a couple of years of residual service life.
2. Mk2 is happening :D
:D
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by kit »

Cybaru wrote:
kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "
There are planes that are not vulnerable to 7.62 rounds?? Apart from the A-10 that is. :eek: :shock:
Maybe RB was trying to pass off the CAG as an aeronautics expert to his western audience :(( .. but still :mrgreen:
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by srai »

Kartik wrote:I truly feel a surge of happiness hearing that the LCA AF Mk2 (as it is called by ADA) is happening. :D With canards and the newly shaped curved canopy, it'll be one heck of a beauty. I seriously hope to see a wind tunnel model image. Hope ADA is listening!

The scaling up of the aerospace industry in India is now so visible, with 2 fighter programs going on simultaneously, a 4+ generation fighter and a 5th generation fighter. Historic for India. and for those who feel that it is not a good use of resources, well the arguments for going with the Tejas Mk2 simply outweigh any risks. AMCA will take time to mature, whereas the Tejas Mk1A and the Mk2 will fill in big gaps that will be left by retiring squadrons.

The experience that will be built up, the number of technologies and upgrades that will need to be developed over their lifetime, weapons, avionics..the list is huge. The business case for investing large sums in perfecting the Kaveri turbofan and being able to initiate other turbofan engine projects will only be possible with hundreds of indigenous fighters coming in.

And the opportunities for Indian labs and industry, both private and public, to become large-scale players and possibly develop solutions that can be exported..this will be a poster child for Make in India, really.
Make that 3 fighter programs: 4+ Gen (LCA Mk.2), 5th Gen (AMCA), and 6th Gen (AURA UCAV). In another 2-to-3 decades, India will be right up there with the current major aerospace powerhouses.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by shiv »

kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "

The above quote is from Janes by Rahul Bedi . What does this mean ?.. LCA is not a battle close support aircraft FOR all we know ! One can imagine the weight penalty that goes with armoring up a fighter interdictor
Rahul Bedi is sounding more and more like he is producing bedhi from his mouth. Any Kannada speaker who is as vulgar and shameless as I am would tell you what that means
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

srai wrote:
Kartik wrote:I truly feel a surge of happiness hearing that the LCA AF Mk2 (as it is called by ADA) is happening. :D With canards and the newly shaped curved canopy, it'll be one heck of a beauty. I seriously hope to see a wind tunnel model image. Hope ADA is listening!

The scaling up of the aerospace industry in India is now so visible, with 2 fighter programs going on simultaneously, a 4+ generation fighter and a 5th generation fighter. Historic for India. and for those who feel that it is not a good use of resources, well the arguments for going with the Tejas Mk2 simply outweigh any risks. AMCA will take time to mature, whereas the Tejas Mk1A and the Mk2 will fill in big gaps that will be left by retiring squadrons.

The experience that will be built up, the number of technologies and upgrades that will need to be developed over their lifetime, weapons, avionics..the list is huge. The business case for investing large sums in perfecting the Kaveri turbofan and being able to initiate other turbofan engine projects will only be possible with hundreds of indigenous fighters coming in.

And the opportunities for Indian labs and industry, both private and public, to become large-scale players and possibly develop solutions that can be exported..this will be a poster child for Make in India, really.
Make that 3 fighter programs: 4+ Gen (LCA Mk.2), 5th Gen (AMCA), and 6th Gen (AURA UCAV). In another 2-to-3 decades, India will be right up there with the current major aerospace powerhouses.
If there are no more Saint's?
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by yensoy »

shiv wrote:
kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "

The above quote is from Janes by Rahul Bedi . What does this mean ?.. LCA is not a battle close support aircraft FOR all we know ! One can imagine the weight penalty that goes with armoring up a fighter interdictor
Rahul Bedi is sounding more and more like he is producing bedhi from his mouth. Any Kannada speaker who is as vulgar and shameless as I am would tell you what that means
Unless the CAG has experienced fighter/ground attack pilots on its staff and aerospace engineers who have done a CAD simulation of the scenario, they are basically recycling the stuff which has been fed to them by vested interests within the IAF. "Echoed" is literal. No disrespect intended, but CAG is a bunch of auditors and lawyers, not technical experts. Theirs is not a second opinion, theirs is just a repeat of the first opinion.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Deans »

Does the decision to suspend the SEF project (F16/Gripen) project mean more Tejas orders ?
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by putnanja »

shiv wrote:
kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "

The above quote is from Janes by Rahul Bedi . What does this mean ?.. LCA is not a battle close support aircraft FOR all we know ! One can imagine the weight penalty that goes with armoring up a fighter interdictor
Rahul Bedi is sounding more and more like he is producing bedhi from his mouth. Any Kannada speaker who is as vulgar and shameless as I am would tell you what that means
Shiv-avare, you know that it has a literal translation in "verbal diarrhea" :rotfl: but it sounds good in kannada :D
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Katare »

Viv S wrote:
ramana wrote:Yes. Re-engining them gives extra power and makes them useful. Right now they are very anemic.
Indranil wrote:1. I favour re-engining the Jaguars. 2026-2030 is still a decade away. No point throwing away good airframes.
Well, we have to sign a deal with Honeywell, carry out the necessary mods and then install the engines. Assuming the contract is signed next year, it'll probably be 2022-23 by the time the first re-engined aircraft enters service, if not later. The last one should probably be around 2025. Which seem a waste for an aircraft that has only a couple of years of residual service life.
2. Mk2 is happening :D
:D
HAL is pitching it’s under development engine for Jaguar upgrades. It claims an uprated verson of it’s 25KN engine can provide as much ir more power than Honeywell’s offer.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Kersi »

Cybaru wrote:
kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "
There are planes that are not vulnerable to 7.62 rounds?? Apart from the A-10 that is. :eek: :shock:
Maybe MiG 27
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Kersi »

shiv wrote:
kit wrote:"The IAF’s persistent misgivings over the questionable capabilities of the Tejas Mk1 were echoed by
India’s CAG, which revealed in May 2015 that LCA pilots were “vulnerable” to 7.62 mm rounds fired
at the front end of the platform. "

The above quote is from Janes by Rahul Bedi . What does this mean ?.. LCA is not a battle close support aircraft FOR all we know ! One can imagine the weight penalty that goes with armoring up a fighter interdictor
Rahul Bedi is sounding more and more like he is producing bedhi from his mouth. Any Kannada speaker who is as vulgar and shameless as I am would tell you what that means
Please educate us !!!!!
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Kersi »

Deans wrote:Does the decision to suspend the SEF project (F16/Gripen) project mean more Tejas orders ?
INSHAH ALLAH
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Singha »

they may be referring to a titanium tub around the cockpit and BP glass(rated to 7.62mm). being mainly a gun and rocket platform the mig27 might have these.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

No fighter has this capability except A-10, Su-25 and Mig 27 which are strictly ground attack aircraft. Shows what the minds of Rahul "BEDI" are all about.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by prasannasimha »

Delhi Defence Review


@delhidefence
8h8 hours ago
More
NEWS: The tender to procure 114 single-engined jet fighters for the Indian Air force has been withdrawn by the Indian Government.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Wrong thread
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Yagnasri »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/967015256995352577

Looks like few 414s are already here waiting for Mk2.
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Re: Tejas: News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Hmm maybe we can hear some HSTT of the MK2 TD soon enough.
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