Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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ramana
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2018 03:35

What development cost if 1A being amortized by HAL? Isn't DRDO funding ADA for that?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jun 2018 03:38

Ramana-ji, Mk1A is HAL’s baby and not ADA.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakkaji » 28 Jun 2018 06:06

Aren't the missiles ordered separately by the IAF for its stocks? Why should HAL include them in the LCA's price?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2018 06:08

Ok. Then the cost of integrating the AESA/SFPJ etc. should be not put along with the unit price but charged separately as development contract for that. The re should be a production contract for the 83 planes.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2018 06:09

Kakkaji wrote:Aren't the missiles ordered separately by the IAF for its stocks? Why should HAL include them in the LCA's price?


We don't know the price breakdown.
If HAL procures them it adds their overhead on it.
IAF has a weapons procurement directorate.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jun 2018 06:10

ramana wrote:Ok. Then the cost of integrating the AESA/SFPJ etc. should be not put along with the unit price but charged separately as development contract for that. The re should be a production contract for the 83 planes.

My hunch is that HAL is pushing for additional Mk1As (on top of the 83 ordered) which could lower the price.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 28 Jun 2018 06:58

^^ That would be a great business strategy but hopefully it does not backfire.
Another is to offer to wave any future charges for integrating weapons onto the Tejas.
The Russians charge for just about any addition/modification to the Su-30MKI. e.g. foreign/indigenous missile integration..etc
So too should HAL.

If IAF wants to behave as a buyer demanding the best, HAL should also behave as a seller expecting maximum $.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Jun 2018 08:20

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Ok. Then the cost of integrating the AESA/SFPJ etc. should be not put along with the unit price but charged separately as development contract for that. The re should be a production contract for the 83 planes.

My hunch is that HAL is pushing for additional Mk1As (on top of the 83 ordered) which could lower the price.

I've still not lost hope that more Tejas, either in mk1 it mk1a form are ordered at foc

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 28 Jun 2018 10:26

We haven't heard anything about the AESA radar selection for the 1A yet have we?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2018 10:41

Not that I know.
Most likely Israeli as that would reduce unit price by clubbing the Jaguar upgrade.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 28 Jun 2018 10:49

Kakkaji wrote:Aren't the missiles ordered separately by the IAF for its stocks? Why should HAL include them in the LCA's price?


Financial hocus pocus.

Uses another budget head to save its own funds for better and more focused deployment.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby mody » 28 Jun 2018 12:37

Add another 36 MK1A or a split of 18 MK1-FOC and 18 MK1A and ask HAL to reduce the price by 20%. Great for everyone involved

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 28 Jun 2018 19:17

https://www.ada.gov.in/
4022th flight on 25th Jun

TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:397 LSP5: 414

TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 209 LSP2: 317 LSP4: 365 LSP7: 299

NP1: 73 LSP8 : 234 PV6:186 NP2: 55 SP6:8

It seems SP-6 has been deputed for flight testing with ADA

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 28 Jun 2018 19:51

Kakarat wrote:It seems SP-6 has been deputed for flight testing with ADA


Seems SP aircraft will be getting some FOC related upgrades. SP-6 is probably the test article.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 28 Jun 2018 19:59

chetak wrote:
BTW, CEMILAC OKs only the technical part. The actual flight part of the refueling comes under the ops people, either ADA or the forces.


What does that mean exactly..? What do you mean by technical work here exactly..?

ADA and NFTC among them do all the certification work including engineering design and verification and all sort of testing including flight testing (there is no non-technical work really involved everything is technical). CEMILAC is certification authority and they oversee/review/approve the certification and sighs it off when they are satisfied with the verification, whether flight testing based on simulation based or some other type.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2018 20:32

mody wrote:Add another 36 MK1A or a split of 18 MK1-FOC and 18 MK1A and ask HAL to reduce the price by 20%. Great for everyone involved



Excellent idea. If they haven't started on the 18 Mk1 FOC make them 18 Mk1A as its only extra radar and SPJ to be added. Get early start.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2018 20:35

Kakarat wrote:https://www.ada.gov.in/
4022th flight on 25th Jun

TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:397 LSP5: 414

TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 209 LSP2: 317 LSP4: 365 LSP7: 299

NP1: 73 LSP8 : 234 PV6:186 NP2: 55 SP6:8

It seems SP-6 has been deputed for flight testing with ADA



A request.
Can we change the font color when we post updates so we know the differences?
This way we see immediately what is new.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 28 Jun 2018 21:45

JayS wrote:
chetak wrote:
BTW, CEMILAC OKs only the technical part. The actual flight part of the refueling comes under the ops people, either ADA or the forces.


What does that mean exactly..? What do you mean by technical work here exactly..?

ADA and NFTC among them do all the certification work including engineering design and verification and all sort of testing including flight testing (there is no non-technical work really involved everything is technical). CEMILAC is certification authority and they oversee/review/approve the certification and sighs it off when they are satisfied with the verification, whether flight testing based on simulation based or some other type.


I know of projects where CEMILAC advice was neither sought, allowed nor taken and the local service went ahead and cleared their own tests and systems. Complaints to the ministry were ignored.

Flight test is not an area where drdo has ANY expertise, except maybe borrowed feathers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 29 Jun 2018 02:27

Seeds being sown to Justify a different single engine fighter factory or just plain hocus pocus.
This needs some careful analysis by KaranM and Saurav Jha.
I will wait


Tejas all the way !!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby dinesha » 29 Jun 2018 19:41

Why the Tejas cost is high-Bharat Karnad
https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/06/29/why ... t-is-high/

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 29 Jun 2018 23:13

Essentially 30% overhead markup on parts procured by HAL. Need them.to get rid of fat and have GFE.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 30 Jun 2018 03:00

Also, look at the right-sizing of HAL. It makes sense the body is downsized and focus entirely on concurrent engineering and production quality controls under Integration umbrella. Caping their profit margin is a wonderful suggestion by BK.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jun 2018 03:25

I do not know if this solution is doable or not, but instead of building Mk1As...continue with the production of Mk1 onlee. Once the first batch of 40 are complete - if the Mk1A is not ready - then continue making the 83 Mk1As on order as Mk1s. Upfront lower unit cost and then the Mk1A upgrade (and cost) can be added on when the Mk1A gets FOC. And instead of just 83 birds, increase the production run to 100 - 120 birds in total.

So 40 Mk1s and then another 100 - 120 Mk1s. Upgrade them all, later to the Mk1A standard. Add the developmental cost of the Mk1A, on to the upgrade, at that time. Why tack on the price now and why stop the production run, till Mk1A is ready?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jun 2018 03:59

^ THIS.

Been saying the same thing... There needs to be a larger order for mk1 foc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 30 Jun 2018 06:16

Just a outside curve ball, do you think someone at HAL has been incentivized to put a ridiculous price so that imported plane becomes automatically attractive. And in the bargain, it kills indigenous effort for good? BK article is Bunkum, I don't think LCA cost is only high by 30%, perhaps 70%.
There is more to the story....and it is not good.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2018 06:34

The price they put is Rs. 100 crore for cost escalation over Mk1, plus AESA and SPJ..And 30 % overhead.
Some price escalation over MK1 to be expected. And then cost of AESA and SPJ.

If HAL manages the sub contracts for the large supply chain there will be costs.
In US, the CFR have guidelines for how much profit is allowed based on product maturity.

At sametime, HAL and their support a need to understand the IAF out if pique can forget about this and just import planes. Can't have local made plane be priced like that.
Even Mk1 basic price of 363 crore is high.
So this like Lockheed F35 price standoff.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 30 Jun 2018 06:56

Plus HAL has used govt money (and not it's 'internally' generated funds la HJT-36) to set up assembly and development of product. They cannot re-amortize that money again and ask IAF to pay for it. IAF has already paid from its budget (plus GOI or MOD) for LCA, it is not HAL money to amortize. HAL should only be charging the cost of production (without any infrastructure cost, as it did not fund it from 'its' money) + profit margin (that govt should and must regulate, including that of private player. A fair margin should be allowed, they can of course amortize the cost and govt should have some other schemes to compensate them. It is not that the infra they developed will only be used for 83 planes. So any extra plane, will they pay royalty to IAF?)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby habal » 30 Jun 2018 08:26

If we need 42,squadrons the Mk1/a production rate should be 50/annum. And not 3/annum.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 30 Jun 2018 09:33

In 2014, HAL pegged Tejas Mk1 price at 162 crores. https://www.google.com/amp/s/wap.busine ... 829_1.html

How did this figure more than doubled to 363 crore. Something is being missed here. Is the cost inclusive of weapons package or PBL?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 30 Jun 2018 12:12

Here's the solution.
IAF pays the current price but receives a royalty off every Tejas MK1, MK1A or MK2 plane exported. Pick 2 of 3.
Whatever the case, do not delay the program any further because it will destroy this program.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2018 12:27

There wont be any exports.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 30 Jun 2018 13:38

ramana wrote:There wont be any exports.


Why ? .. export versions are likely to be in dollars and priced competitively

Any payments to HAL comes back to the government..more like the right hand to the left . I would be concerned it was purely a private company..any takers for a reliance owned Tejas line ? I thought so

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby jaysimha » 30 Jun 2018 15:31

CSIR NAL contributions to Light combat aircraft ( Tejas)
http://www.csir.res.in/sites/default/files/nal_usd_010716.pdf

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 30 Jun 2018 15:47

kit wrote:
ramana wrote:There wont be any exports.


Why ? .. export versions are likely to be in dollars and priced competitively


Unless priced competitively means half the price, it won't get any orders. The competition is too fierce from JF-17(24 million) and other chinese knock-offs.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 30 Jun 2018 20:15

How do we know that Indian Express is not making this shit up?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jun 2018 20:26

+108!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby habal » 30 Jun 2018 22:04

Usually press persons get some tidbit from some friendly, related to family, ex-MoD bureaucrat and go to town with it, we can never get full picture from press reports alone.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 01 Jul 2018 01:10

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 5177141248

#Tejas ready to take-off from AFS Sulur | Nine fighters land here for the official ceremony on July 1

Image
Image

Tejas ready to take-off from AFS Sulur

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Jul 2018 02:33

Amazing news and very good photos!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 01 Jul 2018 03:31

Tejas should give the Gripen a run for its money! JF 17 doesn't come close


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