Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 23 Jul 2018 07:58

The comments about the price of the mk1a are remarkably similar to arguments against the Arjun.

It's almost as if the playbook is well developed to derail domestic production.

Iirc, the hf 24 engine was not developed due to non sanctioning of a trivial sum by india. Using the same logic.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 08:53

ramana wrote:IAF knows all these facts yet there is pushback.
First it was the plane, then HAL production capability, and now it's price.
GOI owns HAL so what's the real problem?
It goes from.one account to another.
Why this charade?
Meantime it's IAF only that suffers from lack.of planes.

When HAL offered to make 40 additional Su-30MKIs, it was reported that the IAF did not want them. Apparently, the Su-30MKI is a maintenance hog. But they will gladly fly the MiG-21, till the new imports arrive. Amazing logic.

IAF not keen on getting more Sukhoi fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-13

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 23 Jul 2018 17:53

Rakesh wrote:When HAL offered to make 40 additional Su-30MKIs, it was reported that the IAF did not want them. Apparently, the Su-30MKI is a maintenance hog. But they will gladly fly the MiG-21, till the new imports arrive. Amazing logic.

IAF not keen on getting more Sukhoi fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-13

It does make sense to me. A new Su-30 bought right now will eat into funds for maintenance for the next 40-50 years. Old Migs on the other hand will only need to be repaired until new planes arrive so about 5 years at max. You can't really expect IAF to buy Su-30 for about 5 years and then decommission it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2018 20:38

So IAF wants to fight or just keep planes flying over the years?
If they need more money for maintenance they should seek it.
Something is wrong here.
Looks like Maintenance Command is in driver seat despite IAF being short of 12 squadrons.

IAF not keen on getting more Sukhoi fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-13

On the claims by the vendors that the Sukhoi-30s cost almost one-third of the French Rafale 36 of which would be joining the force in 2019, sources said the Russian plane costs three times more for maintenance than its existing western origin plane taking into account the man hours required for keeping the plane serviceable.

The orders for Russian Sukhois have been placed by the previous governments in different blocks due to the delays in the induction of the indigenous LCA and failure in acquisition of a medium weight multirole combat plane in the last two decades.

The Air Force at the moment is facing a shortage of almost 12 squadrons from its sanctioned strength of 42 which it feels would be required to meet the requirements of a two-front war.


The planes are Cap-Ex (capital expenditure) while the maintenance is Op-Ex (Operations Expenditure ) level of effort in the out years. Looks like they are treating both as same. And you need planes to fight a war.

Cost of 36 Rafales at $100M each say = 3600M.
Cost of 36 Su 30MKI = 1/3 = 1200M

Cost of maintenance of Rafale is y man-hour/year.
Cost of maintenance of Su 30MkI is 3Y man-hour/year.
So what is man-hours to maintain the Rafale or the SU 30MKI?


Let us say it takes 100 hours per Rafale i.e. 3600 hours for the 36 planes.
Su -30 MKI will be 3*3600 hours = 10800 hours.

Assume $50/man-hour
Rafale cost of owner ship is $3600 M + $0.18M (3600*50= 180,000)
Su 30 MKI cost of ownership is $1200M + $0.54M (0.18*3)

Lets say the planes are there for 40 years.
Total cost of ownership is Rafale : 3600M + 40 *0.18 = 3607M
Total cost of ownership of Su30 MKI : 1200 + 40*0.54 = 1221M

This ignores the cost of spares as it complicates.

Rafale spares will be more costlier than the SU 30MKI spares as they will be imported while SU -30 MKI mostly local and some imports.

So clearly maintenance costs are minuscule to your cost of ownership!!!!
Yet they make the decision.

So even the reason to reject the Su-30 MKI are erroneous.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 21:28

108+ Ramanaji!!!

Trikaal, think of the firepower capability two Su-30MKI squadrons bring to the fight versus two MiG-21 squadrons. Think about the flight safety of the Su-30MKI with the MiG-21. If that was your loved one in the cockpit, you want them to fly a MiG-21 or a Su-30MKI?

Two additional Rambha squadrons will slot right in. No training syllabus to develop (already exists), no new type of weaponry to acquire (just stockpile on existing weaponry), no new maintenance schedule to follow (already exists). The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. But no, the IAF will wait for 7 - 8 years before the first set of imported birds arrive. How many pilots - like Sqn Ldr Meet Kumar who died last week in a MiG-21 crash - do we have to lose till then? Are not lives of pilots the most important factor?

Grab *EVERY* opportunity to retire the MiG-21s and MiG-27s as quickly as possible. Now that does not mean you start replacing all the remaining MiG-21 and the last two MiG-27 squadrons with Su-30MKIs. But two additional Rambha squadrons are not going to upset the apple cart.

The real reason for not ordering two additional Su-30MKI squadrons, is any new acquisition - of a current type - lessens the chances of new imports. Make up the numbers with the Tejas Mk1. That must be India's mass produced fighter. Even on this recent cost brouhaha, let the MoD work out the cost issue with HAL. But continue production of the Mk1. At a later date, tack on the cost of a Mk1A upgrade and upgrade the Mk1s. The Mk1 has achieved what it is was set out to do - be a worthy MiG-21 replacement. ADA is designing the Mk2 to be a medium weight fighter. What more does the IAF need?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 23 Jul 2018 21:53

ramana wrote:So IAF wants to fight or just keep planes flying over the years?
If they need more money for maintenance they should seek it.
Something is wrong here.
Looks like Maintenance Command is in driver seat despite IAF being short of 12 squadrons.


If more maintenance is required for the Sukhois (by a factor of 3), then it would be the Maintenance Command which would love to have the Su in IAF inventory, if you know what I mean :wink: . Not impugning any uniformed individual, it's just that each institution has its own likes and dislikes which are geared towards sustaining or hurting said institution.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 23 Jul 2018 22:01

ramana wrote:So IAF wants to fight or just keep planes flying over the years?
If they need more money for maintenance they should seek it.
Something is wrong here.
Looks like Maintenance Command is in driver seat despite IAF being short of 12 squadrons.

IAF not keen on getting more Sukhoi fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-06-13

On the claims by the vendors that the Sukhoi-30s cost almost one-third of the French Rafale 36 of which would be joining the force in 2019, sources said the Russian plane costs three times more for maintenance than its existing western origin plane taking into account the man hours required for keeping the plane serviceable.

The orders for Russian Sukhois have been placed by the previous governments in different blocks due to the delays in the induction of the indigenous LCA and failure in acquisition of a medium weight multirole combat plane in the last two decades.

The Air Force at the moment is facing a shortage of almost 12 squadrons from its sanctioned strength of 42 which it feels would be required to meet the requirements of a two-front war.


The planes are Cap-Ex (capital expenditure) while the maintenance is Op-Ex (Operations Expenditure ) level of effort in the out years. Looks like they are treating both as same. And you need planes to fight a war.

Cost of 36 Rafales at $100M each say = 3600M.
Cost of 36 Su 30MKI = 1/3 = 1200M

Cost of maintenance of Rafale is y man-hour/year.
Cost of maintenance of Su 30MkI is 3Y man-hour/year.
So what is man-hours to maintain the Rafale or the SU 30MKI?


Let us say it takes 100 hours per Rafale i.e. 3600 hours for the 36 planes.
Su -30 MKI will be 3*3600 hours = 10800 hours.

Assume $50/man-hour
Rafale cost of owner ship is $3600 M + $0.18M (3600*50= 180,000)
Su 30 MKI cost of ownership is $1200M + $0.54M (0.18*3)

Lets say the planes are there for 40 years.
Total cost of ownership is Rafale : 3600M + 40 *0.18 = 3607M
Total cost of ownership of Su30 MKI : 1200 + 40*0.54 = 1221M

This ignores the cost of spares as it complicates.

Rafale spares will be more costlier than the SU 30MKI spares as they will be imported while SU -30 MKI mostly local and some imports.

So clearly maintenance costs are minuscule to your cost of ownership!!!!
Yet they make the decision.

So even the reason to reject the Su-30 MKI are erroneous.


This entire calculation hinges on maintenance cost being $50/man-hour. First of all, the main cost of maintenance isn't labour cost. It's the cost of spares and tools needed for maintenance. For example- A Su-30 needs an average of 5 engines over it's lifetime. This is just one example of spare parts cost. There are a lot many more.

Here are some figures I found through google. These can help reach a better cost estimate:
Plane. Per flight hour cost
F-16. $3600(old) $4500(blk-52)
Mirage 2000 $2700
Su-27. $7000
Su-30. $10000
Rafale. $4000(brazilian air force estimate)

Incidentally, gripen asked for 1.5 billion dollars for 30 years of maintainence support and rafale asked for 4 billion dollars for the same contract.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 23 Jul 2018 22:04

Rakesh wrote:Trikaal, think of the firepower capability two Su-30MKI squadrons bring to the fight versus two MiG-21 squadrons. Think about the flight safety of the Su-30MKI with the MiG-21. If that was your loved one in the cockpit, you want them to fly a MiG-21 or a Su-30MKI?


Rakesh ji, I am not advocating continuing with Migs over buying Su-30. All I am saying is that it makes economical sense to continue with Migs untill Tejas comes through compared to buying Su-30 as stopgap measure. As such, I can understand IAF's rationale behind this move.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 22:11

Trikaal wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Trikaal, think of the firepower capability two Su-30MKI squadrons bring to the fight versus two MiG-21 squadrons. Think about the flight safety of the Su-30MKI with the MiG-21. If that was your loved one in the cockpit, you want them to fly a MiG-21 or a Su-30MKI?


Rakesh ji, I am not advocating continuing with Migs over buying Su-30. All I am saying is that it makes economical sense to continue with Migs untill Tejas comes through compared to buying Su-30 as stopgap measure. As such, I can understand IAF's rationale behind this move.

Trikaal, the better way to put the above sentence would be....

All I am saying is that it makes economical sense to continue with Migs untill new imports comes through compared to buying Su-30 as stopgap measure.

The above is the reality. What they want are shiny new toys. And they will wait. If they wanted the Tejas, they would taken that bird, warts and all. The IAF has a documented history of buying foreign platforms and then upgrading them later. The first set of Mirage 2000s came with a less powered M53 engine. The first set of Rambhas were Su-30Ks inducted in 1997 and the first Su-30MKI came in Sept 2002, a full 5 years later. The first Jaguars were RAF loaned aircraft, until the IAF specific ones arrived. But the IAF gladly flew the Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and Su-30K till the IAF specific ones arrived.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 23 Jul 2018 22:19

^Where's the money? They can wait all they want. At best, they will get a squadron or 2 more. There is no other way to reach 42 squadrons other than to buy Tejas. Current news about Tejas being costly is a red-herring. HAL will soon fall in line once govt danda is inserted from the rear end.

When forces have no other choice left, they will fall in line and make do with Tejas whether they like it or not. This is the inevitable reality. Buying Sukhois isn't a solution either.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 22:21

Trikaal, can you please illustrate the timeline on how the IAF plans to achieve 42 squadrons in the near future. Just remember, Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa has said that the IAF will achieve 42 by the year 2032 and that includes the 110 birds in MMRCA 3.0

At the rate of production that is happening now, it will take up to the middle of the next decade to complete the 83 Mk1As. And that is assuming the Mk1A is ready for production. Where is the Mk1A?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 23 Jul 2018 22:35

^Taking squadron size as 18 aircrafts, here's my expected squadron breakup:
Su-30. 15sqdrns
Mig-29. 4 sqdrns
Jaguars. 8sqdrns
Mirage. 3 sqdrns
Tejas Mk1 and 1A. 7 sqdrns
Tejas Mk2. 11 sqdrns

Some of these will retire, but as you can see, 42 squadrons magic no. can be met only with Tejas, Sukhois aren't needed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 22:45

Trikaal, there are only 3 MiG-29 squadrons in the IAF. Only six Jaguar squadrons exist in the IAF and after the Darin III upgrade...only 80 will be left, so four squadrons worth. The 3rd Mirage 2000 Sqn (No 9 Wolfpacks) is only at half strength. The Tejas Mk1 (40) and Mk1A (83) will only be at 6 squadrons and not 7 squadrons. So you will have to revise your numbers as;

Su-30MKI - 15 SQNs
MiG-29UPG - 3 SQNs
Jaguar Darin III - 4 SQNs
Mirage 2000 - 2.5 SQNs
Tejas Mk1 and 1A - 6 SQNs
Tejas Mk2 - 11 SQNs

The above comes to 39.5 squadrons. And that is assuming Mk1A and Mk2 comes on time.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 23 Jul 2018 22:48

What a day !!!! Where's my lungi? Deployed and gone!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jul 2018 23:01

Rakesh wrote:Trikaal, there are only 3 MiG-29 squadrons in the IAF. Only six Jaguar squadrons exist in the IAF and after the Darin III upgrade...only 80 will be left, so four squadrons worth. The 3rd Mirage 2000 Sqn (No 9 Wolfpacks) is only at half strength. The Tejas Mk1 (40) and Mk1A (83) will only be at 6 squadrons and not 7 squadrons. So you will have to revise your numbers as;

Su-30MKI - 15 SQNs
MiG-29UPG - 3 SQNs
Jaguar Darin III - 4 SQNs
Mirage 2000 - 2.5 SQNs
Tejas Mk1 and 1A - 6 SQNs
Tejas Mk2 - 11 SQNs

The above comes to 39.5 squadrons. And that is assuming Mk1A and Mk2 comes on time.


You have missed the 2 SQNs of Dassault Rafale

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 23:05

I know. I am waiting for him to respond.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 23 Jul 2018 23:05

Rakesh wrote:Trikaal, there are only 3 MiG-29 squadrons in the IAF. Only six Jaguar squadrons exist in the IAF and after the Darin III upgrade...only 80 will be left, so four squadrons worth. The 3rd Mirage 2000 Sqn (No 9 Wolfpacks) is only at half strength. The Tejas Mk1 (40) and Mk1A (83) will only be at 6 squadrons and not 7 squadrons. So you will have to revise your numbers as;

Su-30MKI - 15 SQNs
MiG-29UPG - 3 SQNs
Jaguar Darin III - 4 SQNs
Mirage 2000 - 2.5 SQNs
Tejas Mk1 and 1A - 6 SQNs
Tejas Mk2 - 11 SQNs

The above comes to 39.5 squadrons. And that is assuming Mk1A and Mk2 comes on time.

I took squadron nos as 18 instead of 20. But even then, there are currently 118 jaguars in service which comes to almost 6 squadrons. Adding 2 squadrons of Rafale easily takes the number past 42.

Also, 15+3+4+2.5+6+11=41.5, not 39.5

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jul 2018 23:11

^ The no of aircrafts per squadron varies accordingly and for Tejas its 20 per squadron and there are reports confirming only 80 jags are getting new engines

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 23 Jul 2018 23:16

^ ok, so let's count just 4 squadrons of jags. Still, the number is 41.5(43.5 with rafale) which is over 42. So no new purchase is needed beyond Tejas Mk1, 1A and 2.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2018 23:57

Trikaal,

This entire calculation hinges on maintenance cost being $50/man-hour. First of all, the main cost of maintenance isn't labour cost. It's the cost of spares and tools needed for maintenance. For example- A Su-30 needs an average of 5 engines over it's lifetime. This is just one example of spare parts cost. There are a lot many more.



I had made that an assumption. One can plug in what ever the number is.
The key point I was making is if the man-hours (3x vs x) is the issue then it can be rebutted.

How do they know its x hours for Rafale? Is that brochure numbers?


As for spares I did say that the Su-30 spares would be cheaper as mostly made in India vs imports for Rafale.
And for number of engines, we don't know what is the Rafale engine life span.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 24 Jul 2018 01:41

Neela wrote:https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1021421222851203073

So the real reason for LCA Navy not flying is not because the program was stopped but for integration of tailhook. I hope they've reduced the weight of the tailhook assembly as well. Looks like a combat kitted machine with live R-73E and CMDS in wing root, with the latter seen for the first time in LCA Navy.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 07:31

Trikaal wrote:I took squadron nos as 18 instead of 20. But even then, there are currently 118 jaguars in service which comes to almost 6 squadrons. Adding 2 squadrons of Rafale easily takes the number past 42.

Also, 15+3+4+2.5+6+11=41.5, not 39.5

When you are replying to this post, please do not quote the entire post.

18 is the rule of thumb. But depending on aircraft type, that number does vary. But let us go with 18 aircraft to make things simple. Also, the numbers below are an estimate in the future and does not represent the strength now.

Rafale F3R: 36 aircraft in 2 squadrons.

MiG-29UPG: ~ 54 aircraft in 3 squadrons.

Mirage 2000I/TI: ~ 45 aircraft in 2.5 squadrons.

Su-30MKI: 272 aircraft on order, 7 hull loses to date. I am not including the 8th one that crashed on June 27th, because that was a pre delivery aircraft and not part of any IAF squadron. That leaves 265 aircraft, of which 240 have been delivered to the IAF as of October 2017 (as per wiki chacha). That is close to 15 squadrons, but lets us go with 15 squadrons.

Jaguar Darin III: ~ 80 aircraft in 4 squadrons. Rajat Pandit has reported that 80 will be distributed in 5 squadrons. That means No.6 Dragons will also be included. Logical, considering the first Darin III was a Jaguar IM with the serial number of JM 258 - an aircraft that belongs to No 6 Sqn. Dragons is a not a full strength squadron, as only 12 examples of the IM variant were built by HAL. But since he has reported it, let us go with 5 squadrons and not 4. By the way, here is the link to that article ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7294&p=2284612#p2284612

Tejas Mk 1: 40 aircraft in 2 squadrons. As of today, nine aircraft have been delivered (from SP-1 to SP-9). Production numbers have been steadily increasing, with one aircraft delivered in 2014, two aircraft delivered in 2016, three aircraft delivered in 2017 and three aircraft delivered to date in 2018. From 2019 onwards, both lines are expected to churn out 16 aircraft in total or 8 per line each year. With 31 Mk1s left to deliver, it will take ~ 2 years to complete that production run.

Up to this point, it is more or less somewhat on schedule. The last two below are the iffy ones.

Tejas Mk 1A: 83 aircraft in 4 squadrons. No timeline on when these aircraft are expected to join the IAF. But I believe the plan is to commence Mk1A production, once the Mk1 is done. So let us assume by January 2021, Mk1A production begins. If both lines are still churning out Tejas at 16 aircraft/yr, it will take a little over 5 years to complete that production run. So by 2026, Mk 1A is complete or at least that is the plan.

Tejas Mk 2: 201 aircraft ordered, as per Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman. As per Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa, Mk 2 will fly by 2023 and enter service by 2027. Here is the link to that claim (refer to last para) ---> https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 98904.html

That is a very ambitious goal for the Mk2, but taking the Air Chief's timeline...it will take HAL 12.5 years to complete the Mk 2 production run of 201 birds at the rate of 16/yr. The Air Chief also said that by 2032, the IAF will achieve 42 squadrons. To get to 42 squadrons, HAL will have to achieve a production run of 40 aircraft/yr. HAL will never achieve that number with two lines churning out 16 aircraft/yr. Thus the reason for MRCA 3.0, which has its own issues to navigate through. At the glacial pace the MoD is moving, the IAF will never hit 42 even by 2032!

Therefore to counter that, acquistions of current types should be looked into. Now see the numbers below (similar to the numbers above, but with a few additions);

Rambha Sqns: 15 sqns on order/in service + 2 more

Rafale Sqns: 2 sqns on order + 2 more

Tejas Mk 1: 2 sqns on order/in service

Tejas Mk 1A: 4 sqns on order + 2 more

Tejas Mk 2: 11 sqns on order

---------------------------------------

MiG-29UPG: 3 sqns in service. To be retired in the early 2030s as they will have reached their end of TTL (Total Technical Life).

Mirage 2000I/TI: 2.5 sqns in service. To be retired in the early 2030s as they will have reached their end of TTL.

Jaguar Darin III: 5 sqns in service. To be retired between 2035 - 2040 as they will have reached their end of TTL.

Not including the MiG-29UPG, Mirage 2000I/TI and Jaguar Darin III, the above comes to 40 squadrons. So two squadrons short. If we add the Mirage 2000I/TI, the MiG-29UPG and the Jaguar Darin III it brings it up to 50.5 squadrons. But there will be significant overlap (with retirements and new inductions). The IAF will never have 50.5 squadrons in the ORBAT at any given point in time. But think for a second of the firepower capability that these 40 squadrons will give the IAF. Please do not just focus on numbers alone.

The spanner in the works is MRCA 3.0

The main reasons I am advocating for ordering two additional Rafale, Su-30MKI and Tejas squadrons are;

1) The Rambha production run is better than the Tejas production, as of today. Quicker induction of aircraft, which will result in quicker retirement of the MiG-21.

2) The Rambha production exists and is still churning out aircraft. Tacking on another 40 birds is not hard for the line to complete in a timely fashion. The current production line will complete their 272 order next year.

3) Base infrastructure - to the tune of $2 billion - has already been invested at Ambala and Hasimara. Both airbases can house two squadrons of the Rafale each. The Govt today announced that Rafale deliveries will commence in Sept 2019 and be complete by April 2022. Under three years. If we order another 36 - 44 birds, deliveries of the second batch can be complete by 2025.

4) Adding to the existing inventory of spares, weapons, tools, etc for the Rambha and the Rafale are *MUCH* easier to do, than go through MRCA 3.0 and invest money for *EVERYTHING* in a new type.

5) Ordering these six squadrons are easy on the CAPEX, but gives the IAF what it needs. MRCA 3.0 will kill the Tejas Mk 2.

It is the fear of the Mk 1A (and Mk 2) not coming in on time, that has led the IAF to over take the project from HAL.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 24 Jul 2018 13:16

^Thank you for the detailed reply Sir. It definitely added a lot to my knowledge. Please allow me to clarify my stand. I have never supported MMRCA 3.0. I too believe that additional Sukhois or additional rafales is much better than buying 5 squadrons of a new fighter(read F-16 and Gripen).

My only grouse with ordering additional Sukhois is that HAL is more content screwdrivering Sukhois than developing and manufacturing new Tejas. I don't know the reason, maybe it is easier or maybe it is more profitable. As a result, they weren't really pushing for Tejas up until 2015. If additional Sukhois are ordered, then HAL will once again be content to kick the Tejas can down the road. This will mean delay in Mk1A and Mk2. Only when Tejas is the only aircraft they have for manufacture will they get serious about producing it and increasing their order books. They need a bit of a crisis to get their act together. No more from me on this topic.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Jul 2018 13:33

SP 10 ground tests were completed 12 days back, still waiting for it to be in air and eventually join the AF

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 24 Jul 2018 14:39

Superb debate Trikaal and Rakesh

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 24 Jul 2018 20:57

Trikaal wrote:^Thank you for the detailed reply Sir. It definitely added a lot to my knowledge. Please allow me to clarify my stand. I have never supported MMRCA 3.0. I too believe that additional Sukhois or additional rafales is much better than buying 5 squadrons of a new fighter(read F-16 and Gripen).

My only grouse with ordering additional Sukhois is that HAL is more content screwdrivering Sukhois than developing and manufacturing new Tejas. I don't know the reason, maybe it is easier or maybe it is more profitable. As a result, they weren't really pushing for Tejas up until 2015. If additional Sukhois are ordered, then HAL will once again be content to kick the Tejas can down the road. This will mean delay in Mk1A and Mk2. Only when Tejas is the only aircraft they have for manufacture will they get serious about producing it and increasing their order books. They need a bit of a crisis to get their act together. No more from me on this topic.



A grouse should be based on facts.
Su-30MKI is made at different facilities Nashik while the Tejas is made in Bengluru.
Second its only recently in 2015 that the Tejas 2nd line was funded.
The early line was a make do in HAL existing facilities.
It's MoD that did not release the funds for the facilities.
You are talking like HAL is an independent corporate entity.
Its not. It runs under MoD.
Your logic is totally invalid that more SU 30s would delay the Tejas.
Its the IAF that needs the two types of aircraft.
What crisis?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 24 Jul 2018 21:06

Khalsa wrote:Superb debate Trikaal and Rakesh



What debate. Trikaal is dishing out opinions not based on reality.
His premise is based on erroneous perceptions :
- HAL is an independent corporate entity that is allowed to make makes decisions.
- HAL trades making SU-30MKIs vs Tejas.
Reality is :
- HAL got funded to start the second line only in 2015
- HAL was making do with the 5+3 bays in existing facilities
- HAL makes SU-30MKI at Nashik vs Tejas at Bengluru
- HAL has different chains of command for these two aircraft programs
- HAL has finally streamlined the supply chain for Tejas.
- HAL finally was asked to quote the price for 83 Mk1A of which the development is not completed!!!!


There area bunch of members who have grouse on PSUa and OFB and view everything from that myopic lens.
There is a reason for DPSU+OFB ethos in India. Many times military supplies were cut off during crisis.
What guarantee that a private sector guy with Swiss bank accounts will not be hostage to external pressures.

The key is to reform the DPSU+OFB as Vidur said many times.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 23:02

ramana wrote:HAL finally was asked to quote the price for 83 Mk1A of which the development is not completed!!!!

I hope development is complete by the end of the Mk 1 production run. Otherwise, both lines will sit idle till Mk 1A is ready. Since the Mk 1 can be upgraded to the Mk 1A, is it possible to continue with the production run of the Mk 1...till Mk 1A is ready?

On a totally different note....found this patch on twitter....

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 23:20

Trikaal: Su-30MKIs are *SUCH* maintenance hogs, that the IAF sends them out on international air exercises. Click on link below.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7096&p=2284766#p2284766

The real issue is any acquisition of a *CURRENT* type (Su-30MKI, Tejas) lessens the chances of shiny, new imports. They want MRCA 3.0 and let me stick my neck out and say, that they want the Gripen E.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 24 Jul 2018 23:46

ramana wrote:Su-30MKI is made at different facilities Nashik while the Tejas is made in Bengluru.

Production lines can be repurposed for another aircraft. LM did it to its production line in Fort Worth to make F-35 instead of F-16. No reason HAL cannot do the same once Sukhoi orders dry up.

ramana wrote:Its the IAF that needs the two types of aircraft.
What crisis?

Wrong. IAF has repeatedly stated, on record, that it does not want any more Sukhois. It's HAL that keeps trying to offer more squadrons to keep production lines running. I will, however, agree that IAF's decision could partly be influenced by their desire for more western aircrafts.

ramana wrote:You are talking like HAL is an independent corporate entity.
Its not. It runs under MoD.

Yes, HAL is under MoD but it has a lot of autonomy and decision making power. MoD hardly ever makes any decisions for HAL. Case in point, HTT-40.IAF repeatedly asked the govt and HAL to shelve the project yet HAL continued to push for it in face of all the opposition. MoD didn't sanction any funds for it. So yes, HAL does have a lot of autonomy.

Here, I am not saying HAL should have funded Tejas production. But up until 2014, it never looked to me like HAL was seriously pushing for Tejas. A possible reason for that could be that making Sukhois was enough to meet targets. Now that Sukhoi orders are drying up and Mk1A is still not ready, HAL is getting frantic. Perhaps this is what it needs to be 'reformed'.

You can call this an opinion if you want. Never have I really seen HAL fight for Tejas like it does for many of its other projects, Sukhois included. So yes, I am worried that if HAL gets additional Sukhoi orders, Mk1A will be delayed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 23:58

Trikaal wrote:So yes, I am worried that if HAL gets additional Sukhoi orders, Mk1A will be delayed.

What do you think will happen to the Tejas program if MRCA 3.0 goes through. The RFI for MRCA 3.0 is out, all six OEMs have responded by the deadline of July 06th. The IAF is poring through the thousands of pages of documents that the OEMs have prepared and reportedly flight testing has been shelved, to speed up the process. Where do you see the Tejas program, if MRCA 3.0 goes through?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sudeepj » 25 Jul 2018 00:05

If there is a war, India needs to plug into a large armory. Europeans states can not be relied on to maintain large stockpiles of missiles/bombs etc. I recently read a report that the German airforce had only 4 Eurofighter Typhoons ready to go into combat! There is only one game in town when it comes to maintaining large arsenals that your war fighters can draw on.

The best acquisition for the IAF will be an LCA with an American/Israeli radar capable of firing American/Israeli missiles, and a second low end fighter that is also capable of firing American/Israeli missiles.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2018 01:08

Rakesh wrote:When HAL offered to make 40 additional Su-30MKIs, it was reported that the IAF did not want them. Apparently, the Su-30MKI is a maintenance hog. But they will gladly fly the MiG-21, till the new imports arrive. Amazing logic.

Someone copied my above post verbatim and tweeted it :eek:

https://twitter.com/vikrant2794/status/ ... 4440492032 ---> When HAL offered to make 40 additional Su-30MKIs, it was reported that the IAF did not want them. Apparently, the Su-30MKI is a maintenance hog. But they will gladly fly the MiG-21, till the new imports arrive. Amazing logic.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nachiket » 25 Jul 2018 01:19

Rakesh wrote:What do you think will happen to the Tejas program if MRCA 3.0 goes through. The RFI for MRCA 3.0 is out, all six OEMs have responded by the deadline of July 06th. The IAF is poring through the thousands of pages of documents that the OEMs have prepared and reportedly flight testing has been shelved, to speed up the process. Where do you see the Tejas program, if MRCA 3.0 goes through?

What? :eek: This is insanity. How is the IAF going to confirm whether the brochure claims are actually true? Especially in the case of vaporware peddlers like Saab.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2018 01:23

nachiket wrote:What? :eek: This is insanity. How is the IAF going to confirm whether the brochure claims are actually true? Especially in the case of vaporware peddlers like Saab.

Nachiket Sir, please see this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&p=2284163#p2284163

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 25 Jul 2018 02:13

ramana wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Superb debate Trikaal and Rakesh

What debate. Trikaal is dishing out opinions not based on reality.
His premise is based on erroneous perceptions :


The debate between him , Rakesh and now yourself and others joining is lifting more fog on this firangi is cheaper than a desi saga, than when I asked for clarification.

I was pointing at the outcome of the debate (which seems to be still in progress).
I am happy at the discussion being generated and a sense of civility being maintained.

Carry on all of you.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 25 Jul 2018 02:35

Khalsa, Thanks.
That's what the Forum is for. To listen and learn.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 25 Jul 2018 05:27

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/watch-nav ... ft-carrier

At least people are experimenting. I like this play of deception as in programs being cancelled, not meeting needs. Keeps everyone guessing. Strange though not a word from Raksha Mantri, DRDO, Navy. Guess it flew without telling anyone. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 25 Jul 2018 07:19

Rakesh wrote:What do you think will happen to the Tejas program if MRCA 3.0 goes through. The RFI for MRCA 3.0 is out, all six OEMs have responded by the deadline of July 06th. The IAF is poring through the thousands of pages of documents that the OEMs have prepared and reportedly flight testing has been shelved, to speed up the process. Where do you see the Tejas program, if MRCA 3.0 goes through?

I honestly don't see MRCA 3.0 going anywhere. There are no funds to buy 110 western aircrafts. 110 F-16 or Gripens will cost upwards of 20 billion dollars easily.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... -aircraft/
Initial estimates are 2.91 billion dollars for 14 blk-70 for slovakia. A back of the napkin calculation shows 22 billion dollar cost for 110 aircrafts.

The reality will set in again. IMO it is just an exercise in futility carried out to satiate the IAF. The best case scenario for MRCA 3.0 is a rafale-like purchase of 2 squadrons.
Anyway, MRCA aircrafts won't be built by HAL which gives them enough incentive to develop and manufacture Tejas faster and kill MRCA.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Jul 2018 08:45

ramana wrote:What guarantee that a private sector guy with Swiss bank accounts will not be hostage to external pressures.

The key is to reform the DPSU+OFB as Vidur said many times.
All your points on trikaal's posts are valid, except the above. To assume a government-owned company/executive is somehow more loyal to the nation than the private sector is a complete red herring unfounded and unwarranted, IMO. This attitude has led to the entire culture of PSU's with its dismal record of performance and not just in defense. The GOI has almost unlimited leverage on an Indian private entity on Indian territory under Indian laws, led, managed and owned by Indian nationals.

It is well past high time that almost this entire edifice of DPSU+OFB is privatized and the power of the neta/babus to act as mai baaps in the execution realm eliminated, restricting themselves to be fiduciary and regulatory custodians of the public trust. India with its large and diverse needs can ill afford not to have a vibrant and competitive MIC that only the private industry can provide, some selected exceptions notwithstanding. Furthermore, only a competitive and performing industry can generate not only what is needed for national security but export its wares, creating economic value and further India's national interest and geopolitical power.


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