Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby V_Raman » 25 Jul 2018 08:55

Rishi_Tri wrote:https://swarajyamag.com/insta/watch-naval-variant-of-lca-tejas-flies-for-the-first-time-with-tailhook-used-for-landing-on-aircraft-carrier

At least people are experimenting. I like this play of deception as in programs being cancelled, not meeting needs. Keeps everyone guessing. Strange though not a word from Raksha Mantri, DRDO, Navy. Guess it flew without telling anyone. :)


This proves that India media is plain stupid and not serious in its reporting. It is driven by unsubstantiated rumors and sensationalism!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nvishal » 25 Jul 2018 11:46

I think the reason behind low scale tejas production has to do with the kaveri engine. The ministry will not fund more lines unless kaveri comes alive. Those tejas built under f404 engines today will eventually have to be overhauled to take in the kaveri. Squadron shortages are compelling the govt to take emergency albeit rash decisions. TINA predicament.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 25 Jul 2018 11:50

IMHO full scale production of Tejas Mk.1 should happen with f404 only. Too many moving parts otherwise, and hitching onto a yet-to-be-delivered product has the potential to kill the whole program. All that assumes the engine itself is perfect whenever it is delivered in volumes.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nvishal » 25 Jul 2018 12:12

Tejas with F404 is akin to acquiring/building the f16 in india

If the ministry doesnt want f16, what makes you think it wants the tejas/f404 combo?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 25 Jul 2018 13:06

Do we want to get something built or not? As they say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Import substitution can happen in stages. The first order of business is to get the Tejas production up to speed, perfect the airframe & avionics, perfect the weapons platform, ELINT, training and logistics.

The Kaveri engine effort can run in parallel and be inducted into newer variants of Tejas when that program is ready (and by which time Tejas would have been a well proven platform in itself, albeit with the f404). Kaveri can also be refined & perfected in a UAV form where raw thrust values and overall safety can be works in progress.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nvishal » 25 Jul 2018 13:41

@yensoy
Most of what you said in the above comment is already happening. I was speculating about the reason why tejas production isn't being expanded.

Anyway, the tejas is an important lesson. I'm sure all future jet development programs will now take a russian(or some european) engine as the base for the fuselage.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2018 13:45

nvishal wrote:@yensoy
Most of what you said in the above comment is already happening. I was speculating about the reason why tejas production isn't being expanded.

Anyway, the tejas is an important lesson. I'm sure all future jet development programs will now take a russian(or some european) engine as the base for the fuselage.


It is vital that we derisk and move quickly to develop another operational variant of the LCA using non US engines.

It is not too late even now.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 25 Jul 2018 14:29

Given that the bulk of Tejas' cost seems to come from electronics & weapons systems, with the engine accounting for a relatively small fraction, I feel that the AMCA is really the future of Kaveri. Adding a second engine makes the platform super powerful and takes care of some of the thrust, range, payload & (potentially) safety criticisms. We don't need to push Kaveri for the last 10% thrust now - is the hardest part and could take several years to realize - yes we will take it when it comes but that doesn't block us today.

In some sense, HAL was correct in first building a 2 engine helicopter (ALH) and then in developing a single engine variant (LUH) after the kinks in the 2 engine variant were ironed out.

The small and sleek guys are harder to build than the big guys.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby RKumar » 25 Jul 2018 14:31

nvishal wrote:Tejas with F404 is akin to acquiring/building the f16 in india

If the ministry doesnt want f16, what makes you think it wants the tejas/f404 combo?


:rotfl: ... F404 equal to F16, it remind me of NaPaki's saying 10 SRDE equal to 1 NaPaki :((

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Jul 2018 22:08

chetak wrote:
nvishal wrote:@yensoy
Most of what you said in the above comment is already happening. I was speculating about the reason why tejas production isn't being expanded.

Anyway, the tejas is an important lesson. I'm sure all future jet development programs will now take a russian(or some european) engine as the base for the fuselage.


It is vital that we derisk and move quickly to develop another operational variant of the LCA using non US engines.

It is not too late even now.


Seems like the kaveri is coming to life and the 80kn version is set for trials. Inputs from snecma. I think more Rafale will have to be purchased for the Frenchies to help increase thrust to 9 tons and above

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2018 22:44

Trikaal: will reply soon.

Cain-ji: good news. Source?

To All: I have moved all NLCA discussions to the Naval LCA thread. Please discuss in that thread. Thank You.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 26 Jul 2018 02:09

V_Raman wrote:
Rishi_Tri wrote:https://swarajyamag.com/insta/watch-naval-variant-of-lca-tejas-flies-for-the-first-time-with-tailhook-used-for-landing-on-aircraft-carrier

At least people are experimenting. I like this play of deception as in programs being cancelled, not meeting needs. Keeps everyone guessing. Strange though not a word from Raksha Mantri, DRDO, Navy. Guess it flew without telling anyone. :)


This proves that India media is plain stupid and not serious in its reporting. It is driven by unsubstantiated rumors and sensationalism!!


There were words from Navy and they were strong clear words.
The NLCA does not meet our requirements.


I have stopped caring about the maturity levels of Indian media with regards to defence.
What we as people and country should get into is backing up programmes without treating Admirals and Generals as godly figures whose statements are considered as the last word.

Many a general, air marshal have turned around or their successors have.
Many a times their statements become the kick needed (who knows)

either way, I observed another interesting data point today..

F-18 Hornet put out a statement they could take from Vikrant with significant payload.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2018 02:41

Sorry to hit the nail on back of the head .. if defence preparedness is taken at higher priority (trade off - all these mmrca and other cost calculations matching capabilities we had done for many platforms..no? At least not in oped..we have some info.)... against operational costs (OC) then capabilities it brings to the table counts and these silly costs are overheads. Of course we want reduce that (you bet..we are desi baniyas), and sure that is not at higher priority. IOW, we cant expect french OC at erstwhile Mig prices with russkie economies of scale. Bottom line is, we have limitations while choosing a supplier for our forces- enemy lines and who beds with whom takes higher costs than OC.

Well.. that is the business problem with defence products. One cant budget and seek based on old russkie costs for LCA Mk2 or AMCA. These homegrown can call shots to engineering to come up with low OC by design with upfront costs. (Fixed cost). OC is a variable one.

IOW, OC cant put a stopper to needs.. it has to be built on experience and CMMI initiatives.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 03:03

Khalsa wrote:F-18 Hornet put out a statement they could take from Vikrant with significant payload.

Originally from Economic Times, but only IDRW has a link. The keyword is significant. How much of a payload is significant, remains to be seen.

Boeing again assures India that F-18 can operate from Indian aircraft carriers
http://idrw.org/boeing-again-assures-in ... -carriers/

Added Later...

Boeing aims for Indian Navy’s 57 new carrier-based multi-role fighter contract
https://thediplomat.com/2018/07/boeing- ... -contract/

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 03:08

Trikaal wrote:I honestly don't see MRCA 3.0 going anywhere. There are no funds to buy 110 western aircrafts. 110 F-16 or Gripens will cost upwards of 20 billion dollars easily.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... -aircraft/
Initial estimates are 2.91 billion dollars for 14 blk-70 for slovakia. A back of the napkin calculation shows 22 billion dollar cost for 110 aircrafts.

The reality will set in again. IMO it is just an exercise in futility carried out to satiate the IAF. The best case scenario for MRCA 3.0 is a rafale-like purchase of 2 squadrons.
Anyway, MRCA aircrafts won't be built by HAL which gives them enough incentive to develop and manufacture Tejas faster and kill MRCA.

While I agree with the above on having no money, the timelines of production runs of Tejas Mk1 A and Tejas Mk 2 are highly in doubt. I was being diplomatic when I said that ACM Dhanoa's timeline on the Tejas Mk2 is highly ambitious. To have a first flight in 2023 and then enter IAF squadron service in 2027 is highly suspect. In the absence of Tejas Mk 1A and Tejas Mk 2 in significant numbers, the GoI will have no choice but to get MRCA....even if it is a reduced number. And if money is an issue, then you can kiss Mk 2 goodbye.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 03:42

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1022015023500193792 ---> There is no escaping the fact that India needs to create a usable 90 KN low bypass turbofan at the earliest to power Tejas variants. Dependence on American jet engines is a critical vulnerability for the Tejas program.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2018 04:34

Increase the thrust of bypassed air, and heat up more on the compressed air. I cant think of any other way to maximize thrusts. We cant be sitting idle for long. GTRE reorg should be sought after if we have to deploy Kaveri in a decade's time.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Lalmohan » 26 Jul 2018 14:01

the problem is not so much the thermodynamics
its the metallurgy of fan blades and the control mechanisms plus the high accuracy manufacturing that is difficult

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby KBDagha » 26 Jul 2018 14:11

SP-10 Flies

Source: @WriteTake

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 26 Jul 2018 15:08

Lalmohan wrote:the problem is not so much the thermodynamics
its the metallurgy of fan blades and the control mechanisms plus the high accuracy manufacturing that is difficult

The metallurgy part could be possibly solved temporarily by cannibalizing parts like fan blades from existing engines. Though costly, this should solve the manufacturing problem temporarily so that control mechanisms can be perfected first.
Last edited by Trikaal on 26 Jul 2018 15:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 26 Jul 2018 15:10

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 7151138816
#BreakingNews

#Tejas SP-10 completes maiden flight at #HAL airport. "Extremely smooth flight," says #HAL officials. Flight lasted for 35 min and was piloted by Gp Capt K K Venugpopal (Retd) of NFTC. #FlyingDaggers #IAF


Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 26 Jul 2018 16:12

what a beauty

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 26 Jul 2018 16:49

:P :P

Now we know for sure that it can fly for 35 minutes.

:P :P

:(( :((

On a serious note. That flight from Jamnagar to Oman was longer than 35 minutes.

:(( :((

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 26 Jul 2018 16:56

i envy Gp.Capt Venugopal sir, he gets to fly all kinds of aircraft. Meanwhile, the weather in BLR today was super cloudy around HAL/Bellandur

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby rohan1424 » 26 Jul 2018 17:36

Great News ! When will it be shifted to AFS Sulur ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 18:25

Excellent news!

Indranil, I have updated page 1 of this thread. If you can advise which line SP-10 came from, we can update it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 26 Jul 2018 19:10

Rakesh wrote:Excellent news!

Indranil, I have updated page 1 of this thread. If you can advise which line SP-10 came from, we can update it.


HAL readies Tejas SP-10 for first flight

From this article it seems SP-10 is from Line 1 and Line 2 is working on SP-11, SP-13 & SP-15. And post SP-10 there are 7 more under production (SP-11 to 16 & SP-21) 4 on Line 1 & 3 on Line 2

As reported by Onmanorama earlier, the LCA Division has already loaded the parts of SP-21 on to the assembly facility.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2018 19:57

sometime back, this was said by Christopher

M88-4E in its present stage can generate only 75kN of Thrust with afterburner. M88-4E-Kaveri engine reportedly will be able to generate 88.9 kN to 99 kN of Thrust with afterburner due to the limitation of M88 Core.


i am still trying to understand what he meant.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 26 Jul 2018 20:13

SaiK wrote:sometime back, this was said by Christopher

M88-4E in its present stage can generate only 75kN of Thrust with afterburner. M88-4E-Kaveri engine reportedly will be able to generate 88.9 kN to 99 kN of Thrust with afterburner due to the limitation of M88 Core.


i am still trying to understand what he meant.


Sounds to me like the Kaveri is NOT limited by the M88 core :D

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 26 Jul 2018 20:15

It seems max production capacity is 4+3 and not 8+3 as was hoped by us.

So this year 2018-2019 we might get 6 to 8 aircraft rather than 10 to 12 we hoped for.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2018 20:43

M88 core never went to 10:1 T:W ratio. nowhere close.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 26 Jul 2018 20:51

Pratyush wrote::P :P

Now we know for sure that it can fly for 35 minutes.

((


Without carrying drop tanks and on internal fuel alone. Must be able to fly longer but this much time was enough to gauge that most test points before handing over were covered.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 23:11

Kakarat wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Excellent news!

Indranil, I have updated page 1 of this thread. If you can advise which line SP-10 came from, we can update it.


HAL readies Tejas SP-10 for first flight

From this article it seems SP-10 is from Line 1 and Line 2 is working on SP-11, SP-13 & SP-15. And post SP-10 there are 7 more under production (SP-11 to 16 & SP-21) 4 on Line 1 & 3 on Line 2

As reported by Onmanorama earlier, the LCA Division has already loaded the parts of SP-21 on to the assembly facility.

Amazing info. Thank you so much Kakarat. The above is a gold mine.

I have updated page one of this thread with the above info. Please review and let me know if there are corrections to be made. Two questions;

1) Any info on SP-17 to SP-20. Are they to be trainers or single seaters?
2) Will SP-21 be part of the second squadron?

As of TODAY, deliveries stand at the following;

1) One in 2014
2) Two in 2016
3) Three in 2017
4) Four in 2018 + more to come

So production is moving ahead, slowly but surely.

To all BRF Jingos ---> please visit page 1 of this thread and review that list. Your chest will swell with pride. To see 10 Indian aircraft (with more to come) in an Indian Air Force squadron is a moment of great pride for the country. Everyone must celebrate this moment. No 45 Sqn is at half strength and more aircraft to come. The pilots and engineers of the squadron are truly living up to the Squadron's motto ---> Ajithalakshya
(Invincibility Our Mission)
. Jai Hind!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 26 Jul 2018 23:15

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1022399627151138816
#BreakingNews

#Tejas SP-10 completes maiden flight at #HAL airport. "Extremely smooth flight," says #HAL officials. Flight lasted for 35 min and was piloted by Gp Capt K K Venugpopal (Retd) of NFTC. #FlyingDaggers #IAF


Image

This plane has only parts of the aircraft painted in primer. But in general imagine the plane from nose to tail fin coloured in the same colour as the radome!

The information that AK reported is correct.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2018 23:20

Kakarat wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Excellent news!

Indranil, I have updated page 1 of this thread. If you can advise which line SP-10 came from, we can update it.


HAL readies Tejas SP-10 for first flight

From this article it seems SP-10 is from Line 1 and Line 2 is working on SP-11, SP-13 & SP-15. And post SP-10 there are 7 more under production (SP-11 to 16 & SP-21) 4 on Line 1 & 3 on Line 2

As reported by On manorama earlier, the LCA Division has already loaded the parts of SP-21 on to the assembly facility.



Thanks it gives some data for the time it takes to build the Tejas.
!2 month lead time and 7 months once components are loaded into the assembly jig.

Above report is dated 12 July and now the SP 10 has flown.
So 14 days for high speed taxi trials.

Interesting that the A/C division with Line 2 will be upgraded to full production i.e. to 8 from current 5.
One hold up is the ADA releasing he FOC standard. However if I recall that is a software change to go to FOC from IOC standard.
And IAF has already moved the trainers to after FOC run is complete.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jul 2018 00:03

Rakesh wrote:1) Any info on SP-17 to SP-20. Are they to be trainers or single seaters?
2) Will SP-21 be part of the second squadron?


IAF, HAL end impasse over Tejas trainers

• IAF will receive 16 fighters in the IOC format and another 16 in the FOC format. All these will be LCA MKI
• In the next version of 83 aircraft which are to be built as per the LCA MK1A standards, there will be 10 trainers.
• All the 18 trainers (4+4+10) will be of LCA MK1 standards and not MK1A.
• The first SP-Trainer will be a prototype fitted with AAR probe. Based on its successful completion of trials and acceptance by the IAF, another seven will be produced in the first block of 40.


From what I understand first 2 squadrons were suppose to have 16 fighters and 4 trainers and later MKIA squadron could be 18+2 but now with these recent changes IAF could form a Tajes conversion unit with 18 trainers, only time will tell
So post SP-16, SP-21 onward could go to No 18 Flying Bullets as you have mentioned on the first page in your fantastic first post
If i am not wrong manpower training for No 18 Flying Bullets would have started at the space vacated by No 45 Flying Daggers at Bangalore

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 27 Jul 2018 01:19

Since the 18 trainers are to be Mk1 standard, will HAL produce these on the existing lines and then switch over for Mk1A? Or produce them on line 1 or 2 and convert the other line to Mk1A?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jul 2018 01:40

It would be wise to complete the Trainers first which would also give HAL a little more time to complete development of MKIA. In the current scenario HAL has to start MKIA production by 19-20 but we are yet to see a prototype but according to the report trainers itself will be ready only by 2021

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jul 2018 02:18

Thanks Kakarat for all the info. You have have provided some amazing gems. You are a great resource! I have added your name as acknowledgement on the first page, for your assistance. I have also updated the first page. Please review and let me know if any corrections are to be made. Couple of points I need clarification on and some observations;

1) I am assuming the trainers will have a serial number of KH-T-20XX as in PV-5 and PV-6, which have the serial numbers of KH-T-2009 and KH-T-2010 respectively. Since I am unaware of the actual serial number, I have just left the last two numbers as XX. Now if my assumption is wrong, please do advise. Will it be KH-T-20XX or LA-50XX? See link below...
http://www.airliners.net/photo/India-Ai ... /4239705/L

2) A conversion unit with 18 trainers would be nice! Get the rookie pilots to visit the conversion squadron, have them complete their basic conversion syllabus and then send them to their respective Tejas unit. Not a bad idea at all.

3) It is my understanding that the move to Sulur was to house two Tejas squadrons - at minimum. If that is true, what purpose would No 18 Sqn serve at Bangalore? I thought the move to Sulur was to move away to a less congested airspace. Am I incorrect?

4) Ramana-ji, I agree with Kakarat. Mk1A is nowhere near the horizion of completion. I would rather they just continue with Mk1 (in single seat or trainer form) and then when Mk1A is ready, to move to that. The existing Mk1s can be converted to the Mk1A anyway. That last thing we need are idle lines.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 27 Jul 2018 02:37

Agree
My fear is that IAF won't get combat planes till the trainers build are complete.
So have one line complete them while other makes MK1A.
Need schedule pressure under ADA/HAL to ensure MK1A development completion. Or will delay till after 2020.
Just program planning perespective.


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