Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jul 2018 10:37

Rakesh wrote:1) I am assuming the trainers will have a serial number of KH-T-20XX as in PV-5 and PV-6, which have the serial numbers of KH-T-2009 and KH-T-2010 respectively. Since I am unaware of the actual serial number, I have just left the last two numbers as XX. Now if my assumption is wrong, please do advise. Will it be KH-T-20XX or LA-50XX? See link below...
http://www.airliners.net/photo/India-Ai ... /4239705/L


The 'KH' is the short form of Dr. Kota Harinarayana kind of father of Tejas and used only for prototypes, so in service Tejas will be 'LA' for trainers many be 'LA-T' we will know only when it gets in the air

2) A conversion unit with 18 trainers would be nice! Get the rookie pilots to visit the conversion squadron, have them complete their basic conversion syllabus and then send them to their respective Tejas unit. Not a bad idea at all.


Tejas trainers are fully combat capable so the conversion squadron can also be used as a regular squadron as and when required. I will also be happy if IAF forms a minimum 3 aircraft acrobatic team to display Tejas around the world.

3) It is my understanding that the move to Sulur was to house two Tejas squadrons - at minimum. If that is true, what purpose would No 18 Sqn serve at Bangalore? I thought the move to Sulur was to move away to a less congested airspace. Am I incorrect?


They have created facilities like aircraft hangers & crew accommodation in Bangalore which is idle after No 45 Flying Daggers moves to sulur, which could be used to train manpower for No 18 Flying Bullets and move them to other base as soon as they reach the required strength. By man power i mean both ground staff and pilots

I wonder what would be the Group Captain Madhav Rangachari next assignment after he departed No 45 Flying Daggers, his experience with Tejas is immense

Thanks Kakarat for all the info. You have have provided some amazing gems. You are a great resource! I have added your name as acknowledgement on the first page, for your assistance.


Just sharing the information i have come across and my personal interest to know more. By discussing with knowledgeable people like you and many other fellow BR members I also gain some knowledge

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 27 Jul 2018 12:25

Btw what does la(Tejas) or sb(rambha) stand for ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 27 Jul 2018 15:30

Great news. Especially the part where IAF has agreed to accept all 18 trainers in Mk1 configuration. I think earlier they were insisting on Mk1A config for all trainers. This should give HAL some breathing room as Mk1A production doesn't start till Aircraft no. 51.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jul 2018 21:33

ADE has issued a tender for Tejas MKIA DFCC Chassis Assembly. The tender opens by end august and first unit to be supplied in 3 months from date of contract

The fabrication of the chassis has to be carried out in Three Stages, based on the following Terms &
Conditions:
1) FIRST UNIT - PROTOTYPE UNIT (01 No.)
• The first prototype unit shall be fabricated using the first set of chassis component drawings released
and approved by ADE.
• The first prototype unit shall be delivered within 03 months from the date of placement of
order/contract.
• Depending on the outcome of the fabricated components and results of the preliminary assembly
tests and checks, the second set of drawings will be released with modifications (if required).
2) SECOND UNIT - QUALIFICATION TEST (QT) UNIT (01 No.)
• The second unit, which will be the Qualification Test (QT) unit, shall be fabricated from the modified
set of drawings approved and released by ADE.
• The QT unit shall be delivered within 03 months from the date of receipt of the modified drawings. T0
for the QT unit starts from the date of receipt of the modified drawings from ADE.
• Based on the Qualification Tests of the QT unit carried out in ADE in collaboration BEL Bangalore,
the third set of components drawings will be released (if required).
3) THIRD, FOURTH & FIFTH UNITS - FLIGHT WORTHY UNITS (03 Nos.)
• 03 numbers of Flight Worthy units shall be fabricated from the final modified set of drawings
approved and released by ADE. T0 for these three units starts from the date of receipt of the
modified drawings from ADE.
• These units shall be delivered together within 04 months from the date of receipt of the final modified
drawings.
• These final flights worthy units will accepted based on the mechanical inspection reports and
Qualification Tests results carried out in ADE in collaboration BEL Bangalore.
ADE has the right to short-close the demand, in case the design requirement of fins with 0.4mm or lesser
thickness (as mentioned in Annexure 'A') is not achieved even after the Second Unit (QT Unit) is fabricated.
4) Detailed drawings shall be obtained from ADE against Non Disclosure Agreement for details refer
1.1, Part 1(A) of RFP at Page No. 3.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 27 Jul 2018 21:37

Trainers in LCA MK1 are supposed to be FOC std with AAR probe. Fitting of AAR probe on trainers may take time.

If LCA 21 is Already loaded on a Jig, then does it mean that atleast for single seater LCA AAR probe is adequately integrated to start production?

If 12 LCA are produced this year then not much time is left to finalize drawings of LCA Trainer.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Austin » 28 Jul 2018 20:59

Security Scan - TEJAS 'The Flying Daggers'


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Austin » 28 Jul 2018 20:59

Tejas begins the sky party at AFS Sulur


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 29 Jul 2018 04:20

Kakarat wrote:
Rakesh wrote:1) I am assuming the trainers will have a serial number of KH-T-20XX as in PV-5 and PV-6, which have the serial numbers of KH-T-2009 and KH-T-2010 respectively. Since I am unaware of the actual serial number, I have just left the last two numbers as XX. Now if my assumption is wrong, please do advise. Will it be KH-T-20XX or LA-50XX? See link below...
http://www.airliners.net/photo/India-Ai ... /4239705/L
The 'KH' is the short form of Dr. Kota Harinarayana kind of father of Tejas and used only for prototypes, so in service Tejas will be 'LA' for trainers many be 'LA-T' we will know only when it gets in the air

KH and KH-T are DRDO designations. IAF designation is LA for single seater. For Mirage 2000 it's KF and KT respectively while for MiG-29 it is KB for single seater and KS for twin seater with U added for upgrade. Jaguar Trainers are IB. So can be anything.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 29 Jul 2018 23:28

Is Uttam AESA getting tested on any of the Tejas prototypes? At least it was ready in physical form as DefExpo showed?

Also, just surmising that Kaveri with Snecma core could be ready for integration by 2020. Must be in advanced stages of testing and uprating the engine output. Perhaps test it on one of the Tejas prototypes.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jul 2018 03:27

Rishi,

The answers you seek have been posted in this thread previously. Kindly read.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 31 Jul 2018 10:53

If LCA 21 is Already loaded on a Jig, then it means that atleast for single seater LCA, AAR probe is adequately integrated to start production even if test flights are on going.

IF Trainers in LCA MK1 configuration are supposed to be FOC std with AAR probe then final drawings should be ready by now, as sub components will have to be ordered now to start production in 2020

MK1A components will have to be ordered by 2020 to start production by 2021. Timelines are tight and HAL will have to step up.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2018 12:14

Gyan, see below....

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 41184?s=21 —> DRDO lab ADE has issued tender for fabrication of parts for LCA Mk1A. Delivery period is 14 Months from the effective date of contract.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 31 Jul 2018 17:16

^^That is the Digital Flight Control Computer chassis mechanicals. IIRC, DataPatterns made the previous version.

Actually, order had been placed with some of the participant organizations for MK1A equipment some time ago, and they are now warming up now.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 31 Jul 2018 20:47

Dileep, Looks like a machined part from the Aluminum Alloy 6061-T6.
So a set of six plates with grooves for printer boards and recess for connectors?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 31 Jul 2018 22:14

Dileep wrote:^^That is the Digital Flight Control Computer chassis mechanicals. IIRC, DataPatterns made the previous version.

Actually, order had been placed with some of the participant organizations for MK1A equipment some time ago, and they are now warming up now.

Yup. The cake is baked. This is just due process. They have floated this tender for the second time. I think the first time was a couple of months back. I think the cake was baked even then.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 31 Jul 2018 22:33

I think instead of references to cake, we should have references to laddoos.

Anyway, laddoo distribution time:

http://zeenews.india.com/india/lca-tejas-production-line-ramped-up-16-fighters-being-manufactured-every-year-2128901.html

LCA Tejas production line ramped up, 16 fighters being manufactured every year
Besides, the 40 aircraft (20 IOC & 20 FOC), Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has already cleared the acquisition of 83 LCA MK1A for IAF at a cost of over Rs 50,000 crore.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby souravB » 31 Jul 2018 23:18

disha wrote:I think instead of references to cake, we should have references to laddoos.

Anyway, laddoo distribution time:

http://zeenews.india.com/india/lca-tejas-production-line-ramped-up-16-fighters-being-manufactured-every-year-2128901.html

LCA Tejas production line ramped up, 16 fighters being manufactured every year
Besides, the 40 aircraft (20 IOC & 20 FOC), Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has already cleared the acquisition of 83 LCA MK1A for IAF at a cost of over Rs 50,000 crore.

Maybe we should use the laddoos for Hanuman ji and Ganesh ji for now and start to distribute them once 16 being actually delivered from HAL in the FY 18-19.. I have no objections to MODs decision, but similarly have faith on HAL too.. :P

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 01 Aug 2018 00:41

I think we are being overly negative.

Let's say HAL delivers only 8 instead of 12 next year and delivers 16 from 2021 onwards., sky is not going to fall. That is just 12 short going into 2021. For a fighter that first flew as a TD in 2001, 12 "short" in production 20 years later is not something to worry about.

The key here is production. At 16 from 2021 onwards and additional 80+ to add, that will be @2026 when IAF gets all of Mk1/Mk1As.

Hopefully, a TD for LCA Mk2 flies by 2022 with Kaveri and gets IOC by 2025/2026.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2018 00:44

So after all that hulla the 83 Mk1A are being priced at Rs 50,000 crores.
What was the price quoted a little while ago?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 01:35

Ramana, so in the end, the Indian Express piece was a lifafa article? :lol:

An Update on the HAL Tejas build program
http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2018/ ... d-program/

The progress of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Tejas MK-1 build program has become a matter of intense interest for the public. As such, earlier today, a written reply was submitted by India’s Minister of Defence for State, Dr. Subhash Bhamre, to a question related to the status of the Tejas Mk-1 build program. The detailed reply reveals that as reported by Delhi Defence Review earlier, efforts continue to double unit production as well as move HAL firmly into a lead-integrator role for the Tejas by outsourcing as many sub-assemblies as possible.

Progress on Existing Contracts

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) says that two contracts till date have been signed between the Indian Air Force (IAF) & HAL for the procurement of:

(i) 20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard aircraft on 31st March 2006 to be completed by December 2011 and

(ii) 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard aircraft on 23rd December 2010 to be completed by December 2016.

With respect to progress made on the above contracts, Dr Bhamre in his reply says that out of a total of 20 IOC aircraft (16 fighters and 4 trainers), 9 fighters have been delivered by HAL to IAF till date. The production of the remaining 11 IOC aircraft (7 fighter + 4 trainer) has been taken up at HAL. (Of course, the tenth IOC standard aircraft, Tejas SP-10 flew for the first time a few days ago). The IOC standard MK-1 is currently capable of undertaking ‘air defence operations’ and conventional ground attack with heavy bombs. Production of the 20 contracted FOC aircraft, will be taken up after FOC clearance by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for which the current target date for completion is December 2018, according to Dr Bhamre.

Doubling Production

The written reply by Dr Bhamre says, that ‘in order to fast track the production of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and to achieve FOC clearance given by ADA, the following initiatives have been taken’:

• For ramping up production capacity from existing 8 aircraft to 16 aircraft per annum, Government of India (GoI) has sanctioned Rs 1381.04 Crore in March, 2017.
• Enhancing production rate of LCA Tejas primarily through outsourcing of major modules to private partners with HAL moving to the role of lead integrator.
• Establishment of second line for structural and equipping activities at Aircraft Division, HAL.
• Increase in number of jigs for Front fuselage, Centre fuselage, Rear fuselage and Wings.
• Reduction in manufacturing cycle time through improved Supply Chain Management, learning and augmentation of manpower.
• Modularization of electrical looms for reduction of cycle time of aircraft looming.

On the Tejas MK-1A

Dr Bhamre also points out that besides the 40 aircraft (20 IOC & 20 FOC) already contracted, the MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has cleared the acquisition of 83 LCA Mk1A for the IAF and the quotation for the same has been submitted by HAL.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2018 02:28

Rakesh Thanks. Will highlight key facts.

Rakesh wrote:Ramana, so in the end, the Indian Express piece was a lifafa article? :lol:

An Update on the HAL Tejas build program
http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2018/ ... d-program/

The progress of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Tejas MK-1 build program has become a matter of intense interest for the public. As such, earlier today, a written reply was submitted by India’s Minister of Defence for State, Dr. Subhash Bhamre, to a question related to the status of the Tejas Mk-1 build program. The detailed reply reveals that as reported by Delhi Defence Review earlier, efforts continue to double unit production as well as move HAL firmly into a lead-integrator role for the Tejas by outsourcing as many sub-assemblies as possible.

Progress on Existing Contracts

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) says that two contracts till date have been signed between the Indian Air Force (IAF) & HAL for the procurement of:

(i) 20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard aircraft on 31st March 2006 to be completed by December 2011 and

(ii) 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard aircraft on 23rd December 2010 to be completed by December 2016.

With respect to progress made on the above contracts, Dr Bhamre in his reply says that out of a total of 20 IOC aircraft (16 fighters and 4 trainers), 9 fighters have been delivered by HAL to IAF till date. The production of the remaining 11 IOC aircraft (7 fighter + 4 trainer) has been taken up at HAL. (Of course, the tenth IOC standard aircraft, Tejas SP-10 flew for the first time a few days ago). The IOC standard MK-1 is currently capable of undertaking ‘air defence operations’ and conventional ground attack with heavy bombs. Production of the 20 contracted FOC aircraft, will be taken up after FOC clearance by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for which the current target date for completion is December 2018, according to Dr Bhamre.

{Again the bottle neck is ADA and which has so far not felt the heat. Not one word from their spokesperson!}

Doubling Production

The written reply by Dr Bhamre says, that ‘in order to fast track the production of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and to achieve FOC clearance given by ADA, the following initiatives have been taken’:

• For ramping up production capacity from existing 8 aircraft to 16 aircraft per annum, Government of India (GoI) has sanctioned Rs 1381.04 Crore in March, 2017.
Enhancing production rate of LCA Tejas primarily through outsourcing of major modules to private partners with HAL moving to the role of lead integrator.
• Establishment of second line for structural and equipping activities at Aircraft Division, HAL.
Increase in number of jigs for Front fuselage, Centre fuselage, Rear fuselage and Wings.
Reduction in manufacturing cycle time through improved Supply Chain Management, learning and augmentation of manpower.
Modularization of electrical looms for reduction of cycle time of aircraft looming.

On the Tejas MK-1A

Dr Bhamre also points out that besides the 40 aircraft (20 IOC & 20 FOC) already contracted, the MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has cleared the acquisition of 83 LCA Mk1A for the IAF and the quotation for the same has been submitted by HAL.



So the milestones are:

FOC in December 2018 by ADA.
IOC production on the two lines by HAL. This will be monitored by us!
Then on to FOC production.
(4 IOC+4FOC+10) 18 Mk1 trainers along with FOC planes.
Mk1A order released to HAL.
Now its a matter of program management.

I hope the IAF Project office gives regular communiques to manage expectations.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2018 02:30

Rakesh Why was that lifafa article written?

I wish we have some one write a white paper on the four phases of Tejas and how its on the verge of last phase.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 02:33

Ramana, for the same reason that earlier lifafa article was written - that Tejas cannot fly for more than 30 minutes or something. Anything to kill the program and import fighters. India's real enemies lie within.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 01 Aug 2018 07:58

Maybe I am missing something but 50000 crore means 602 crore rupees per aircraft or 89 million dollars. That is more than the quoted figure of 463 crore.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Aug 2018 08:29

ramana wrote:
{Again the bottle neck is ADA and which has so far not felt the heat. Not one word from their spokesperson!}

This is nothing new for the ADA - tareekh pey tareekh continues, seemingly without any accountability. No wonder the IAF wants to be in charge, wish this had happened ages ago during inception itself. Alas the technocrats ran it....smallest, lightest, fastest and what not. Bloody FOC has again been pushed further.

Cain Marko - It will be wise if you delete this thread. I have personally seen people struggle day and night in ADA. They are not playing hopscotch(any place will have laggards) Remember that they have to work with Babu dom and also have to struggle with tremendous worker shortage because they are not allowed to recruit easily, having to do with temps . I will give an example - they ahve to hire on "contract basis" and some fresh recruits join and then skip with work not completed.This was so frustrating that for months they were trying to get some code done and the team kept changing so over the weekend finally ione of the senior persons had to do it themselves- so when you do not have dedicated staff people have to work through all of this and then you start blaming for delays.

In fact like how they demand rural service from Doctors the Govt should isntuitute India service for rfresh graduates from IIT's etc to work in Institutes of national importance for a year as compulsory Internships etc which will solve manpower shortage and also allow skilled young youth to do service to their country and then they can be allowed to go for their placements.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 01 Aug 2018 09:37

ramana wrote:Dileep, Looks like a machined part from the Aluminum Alloy 6061-T6.
So a set of six plates with grooves for printer boards and recess for connectors?


Here is the image of current DFCC. They have moved to PowerPC platform I heard.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 01 Aug 2018 09:48

Cain Marko wrote:
ramana wrote:
{Again the bottle neck is ADA and which has so far not felt the heat. Not one word from their spokesperson!}

This is nothing new for the ADA - tareekh pey tareekh continues, seemingly without any accountability. No wonder the IAF wants to be in charge, wish this had happened ages ago during inception itself. Alas the technocrats ran it....smallest, lightest, fastest and what not. Bloody FOC has again been pushed further.


ADA faces severe resource shortage. It is a surprise that they get done what they do. You should also remember that it is pure passion that keeps these wonderful people with the organization. Give them some respect please!

As a side effect, they also expect the other entities to work like them, which is a real problem for suppliers :evil:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 01 Aug 2018 10:22

Well said Dileep sahab. On both accounts.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sum » 01 Aug 2018 10:45

ADA faces severe resource shortage. It is a surprise that they get done what they do. You should also remember that it is pure passion that keeps these wonderful people with the organization.

Is this due to lack of good candidates applying or just due to govt rules on recruitement tying their hands?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 01 Aug 2018 11:06

sum wrote:
ADA faces severe resource shortage. It is a surprise that they get done what they do. You should also remember that it is pure passion that keeps these wonderful people with the organization.

Is this due to lack of good candidates applying or just due to govt rules on recruitement tying their hands?


I thing there is no lack of talent in India, I think It is the complicated recruitment process and red-tapism. There is a Good Aeronautical engineer who works in IT sector who i personally know and there are a plenty who i dont know

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 01 Aug 2018 11:15

Trikaal wrote:Maybe I am missing something but 50000 crore means 602 crore rupees per aircraft or 89 million dollars. That is more than the quoted figure of 463 crore.



How much of the cost difference is on account of increased equipment for. As the price difference is under 150 Crores.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 01 Aug 2018 12:03

sum wrote:
ADA faces severe resource shortage. It is a surprise that they get done what they do. You should also remember that it is pure passion that keeps these wonderful people with the organization.

Is this due to lack of good candidates applying or just due to govt rules on recruitement tying their hands?


ADA is conceived as a "co-ordinating agency" that is expected to "get things done" by the bunch of entities including DRDO/CSIR labs and other institutions. But they ended up doing a lot of work themselves because of various reasons. However, the manpower policy is still stuck at the "co-ordinating agency" definition and the number allocation is very low. That is the problem.

They get things done by interns, temps and even by unsuspecting suppliers ;).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 01 Aug 2018 12:13

Kakarat wrote:
sum wrote:Is this due to lack of good candidates applying or just due to govt rules on recruitement tying their hands?
I thing there is no lack of talent in India, I think It is the complicated recruitment process and red-tapism. There is a Good Aeronautical engineer who works in IT sector who i personally know and there are a plenty who i dont know

Lateral recruitment is a huge challenge due to resentment of old timers. Politically old timers either try to block lateral recruitment or impede their work if recruited. If a lateral inductee shows better performance, it shows old timers in a bad light, hampering their promotion chances. Same for freshers, who are kept "subordinated" to old timers for same reason. No lateral wants to be treated second class, so no one is keen to join. Majority of the freshers too drop out.

Old timers are definitely good, having brought the program to where it stands today. But insecurity is an elemental human issue. Happens in private sector too.

Way to resolve is the way Modi govt is inducting laterally. Create new posts so that old posts are there for old timers.

In the Services, it is NDA vs IMA vs OTA guys with the former trying to block the latter.

This is the new caste system. Needless to say, India suffers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 01 Aug 2018 12:29

HAL will be the actual saviour of the Tejas program.

ADA doesn't have the political clout to contest IAF ECRs and being an R&D organisation doesn't have a stake in production.

HAL has a highly unionised workforce that has to be given orders. No political leader can ignore it. HAL also has the clout to push back IAF ECRs.

The trick will be to wean HAL from foreign aircraft like Hawk and Su-30 to Tejas. That is happening naturally due to exorbitant pricing of foreign aircraft like Rafale.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 01 Aug 2018 12:30

Pratyush wrote:How much of the cost difference is on account of increased equipment for. As the price difference is under 150 Crores.


I don't know. The only thing the article tells us about cost is that 83 Mk1A will cost 50000 crore. A simple, back of a napkin calculation gives us a figure of 602 cr per aircraft. Surely, this includes logistics and maintenance support too but still, there is no reason to assume that cost of aircraft has fallen below the earlier quoted figure of 463 crore.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Aug 2018 12:35

Dileep wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:This is nothing new for the ADA - tareekh pey tareekh continues, seemingly without any accountability. No wonder the IAF wants to be in charge, wish this had happened ages ago during inception itself. Alas the technocrats ran it....smallest, lightest, fastest and what not. Bloody FOC has again been pushed further.


ADA faces severe resource shortage. It is a surprise that they get done what they do. You should also remember that it is pure passion that keeps these wonderful people with the organization. Give them some respect please!

As a side effect, they also expect the other entities to work like them, which is a real problem for suppliers :evil:

Not a question of respect or lack of it. Asking for accountability doesn't mean lack of respect. How many deadlines have ADA missed?

How in the world is the air Force or Navy supposed to plan for the future if programs are delayed by years?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 01 Aug 2018 13:39

Cain Marko wrote:
Dileep wrote:
ADA faces severe resource shortage. It is a surprise that they get done what they do. You should also remember that it is pure passion that keeps these wonderful people with the organization. Give them some respect please!

As a side effect, they also expect the other entities to work like them, which is a real problem for suppliers :evil:

Not a question of respect or lack of it. Asking for accountability doesn't mean lack of respect. How many deadlines have ADA missed?

How in the world is the air Force or Navy supposed to plan for the future if programs are delayed by years?


They get things done by interns, temps and even by unsuspecting suppliers :wink:

There is a dark and macabre humor in the statement by @Dileep above. Whether it was intended as such or not, I really don't know.

This is an evil practice that has become pervasive in almost every lab. Suppliers, interns and temps are coerced and I know of many cases where stolen software/designs obtained by direct threats to suppliers, interns and temps have been passed off as "original work" done by many incumbents and brazenly included in their applications/submissions for promotions to higher grades.

Soon, this is bound to blow up in someone's face. Stolen software/designs hit directly at a supplier's livelihood and they have invested both time and money for which many do not see returns. This is extremely disheartening, to put it politely.

Theft is theft, regardless of any which way you choose to look at it.
Last edited by chetak on 01 Aug 2018 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 01 Aug 2018 13:41

It is not just ADA. They are just a cog (well, a central one, no doubt) in the whole system. You are asking for "accountability"? Let me ask, where is the "authority"? Accountability doesn't work without authority. ADA have no authority over any of the contributing agencies. That is one of the root cause for them to start developing some things on their own.

The principal reasons for delays are:

1. Adding/changing requirements by IAF. What we see in open source is tip of the iceberg.
2. Trickle funding/approval. Beancounters love to keep you on shoestring always.
3. Antagonism by the regulators (CEMILAC/RCMA and the approval authorities at IAF and HAL), to the level of test flight being held because the physical copy of the signed and stamped paper was not made available (can't accept saaft kaapy saar), or insisting on imaginary problems to be solved. (Would they treat the firangi maal the same way?)
4. Lack of concerted team work among the huge number of stakeholders.
5. Resource crunch.

chetak
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 01 Aug 2018 13:46

Dileep wrote:It is not just ADA. They are just a cog (well, a central one, no doubt) in the whole system. You are asking for "accountability"? Let me ask, where is the "authority"? Accountability doesn't work without authority. ADA have no authority over any of the contributing agencies. That is one of the root cause for them to start developing some things on their own.

The principal reasons for delays are:

1. Adding/changing requirements by IAF. What we see in open source is tip of the iceberg.
2. Trickle funding/approval. Beancounters love to keep you on shoestring always.
3. Antagonism by the regulators (CEMILAC/RCMA and the approval authorities at IAF and HAL), to the level of test flight being held because the physical copy of the signed and stamped paper was not made available (can't accept saaft kaapy saar), or insisting on imaginary problems to be solved. (Would they treat the firangi maal the same way?)
4. Lack of concerted team work among the huge number of stakeholders.
5. Resource crunch.


At the root of it all is the bane of our society, the ubiquitous "palm stretched out" syndrome.

This has a dual purpose, the palm can either hit out vengefully or it can collect "dakshina".

I personally know of a bangalore company whose primary business is some very sector specific software, far removed from aviation but these effers has slyly managed to get themselves aerospace design clearance from CEMILAC without ever having seen even the backside of an aircraft and whats more, it's being renewed regularly without even a single aerospace project executed so far and with no aerospace guys ever onboarded.

No doubt, some shady chaacha/bathija link with deep hooks will surface if anyone cared to dig.
Last edited by chetak on 01 Aug 2018 13:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 01 Aug 2018 13:56

chetak wrote:They get things done by interns, temps and even by unsuspecting suppliers :wink:

There is a dark and macabre humor in the statement by @Dileep above. Whether it was intended as such or not, I really don't know.


Oh.. it was intended. Suppliers tolerate a lot, because that is what we do in anticipation of better future.

I don't care about the 'credit' part. I care about the money I am dutybound to make for my employer. The designs and concepts we painstakingly put together will be simply stolen and given as an open bid, where we need to compete cutthroat, so we get no benefit for the work we did originally.


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