Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby VinodTK » 01 Aug 2018 18:22

From The Hindu: ‘LCA clearance may take time’
The target for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas to achieve Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is December 2018, the Government informed Parliament on Monday. However, official sources said this is likely to slip further to the middle of next year as there are several capabilities yet to be validated.
:
:
:
Yet to be demonstrated

The major capabilities that are yet to be demonstrated on the Tejas are gun firing, air-to-air refuelling and new data-linked software defined radios, among others. The IAF has conveyed that its wants new data links as a standard feature on the FOC variant as communications are an essential feature for an aircraft to operate in a network-centric environment.

Dr. Bhamre said that the IOC aircraft is currently capable of “undertaking air defence operations and conventional ground attack with heavy bombs is feasible.”

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 01 Aug 2018 18:52

We should stop calling it FOC.

Refueling was a MK1A requirement. FOC was suppose to end with BVR capability.

They should just say, it is been incremented with continuous improvement.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Zynda » 01 Aug 2018 19:47

Not just ADA but the current trend in most DRDO labs is to reduce permanent employees. Get work done by contract folks, apprentice trainees and sometimes interns. Unfortunately, for the former, selection is done by tendering & L1 bidding. Most of the times, the L1 is selected on lowest cost basis and the saying goes "you get what you pay for" holds true. With pittance salaries, many good experienced folks from outside who really can bring in lot of fresh ideas & practices, can't afford to work at those compensation levels. Most of the contract folks end up being at entry level who will be looking to get some quick & dirty experience (read buzz technical nomenclature on the resume) before jumping to better paying opportunities at private sector. Limited extent of "nurturing" of talent.

Secondly, as some one mentioned, there is the problem of ego...have heard stories from very closed quarters about senior management folks having a narrow/closed view about adopting newer and/or better practices. Of course, the 2nd issue is a human nature problem which exists in private sector to a large extent.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srin » 01 Aug 2018 20:18

I hadn't heard of this software defined radio requirement for the FOC earlier. Was it always there, or is it a new one ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 01 Aug 2018 22:04

It’s new. But nobody is married to FOC. IAF wants some features standard to all new incoming aircraft. Gun testing is waiting on IAF, I will leave it at that.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 02 Aug 2018 00:22

VinodTK wrote:From The Hindu: ‘LCA clearance may take time’
The target for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas to achieve Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is December 2018, the Government informed Parliament on Monday. However, official sources said this is likely to slip further to the middle of next year as there are several capabilities yet to be validated.
:
:
:
Yet to be demonstrated

The major capabilities that are yet to be demonstrated on the Tejas are gun firing, air-to-air refuelling and new data-linked software defined radios, among others. The IAF has conveyed that its wants new data links as a standard feature on the FOC variant as communications are an essential feature for an aircraft to operate in a network-centric environment.

Dr. Bhamre said that the IOC aircraft is currently capable of “undertaking air defence operations and conventional ground attack with heavy bombs is feasible.”



Every time there is good news about Tejas, inside sources come out to rebut them.

if I was Dr. Bhambre, I would find out the source and ask why he was not informed before he made the Lok Sabha submission to the starred question.
This inside source has just made the Minister cut a sorry figure.

The way starred questions work is a MP submits a question and the concerned Minister gets it answered by his Ministry officials after due diligence so that the answer is factual and true. The reason is the sanctity of the Parliament as the questioner is an elected representative of the people.

So if the news paper sources were true to their office they would have informed the minster first and not some reporter.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Chinmay » 02 Aug 2018 09:54

Shouldn't we consider statements made in Parliament as true, instead of unnamed sources in the media?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Aug 2018 11:07

.....
Last edited by Rakesh on 03 Aug 2018 02:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please post in Naval LCA thread.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 02 Aug 2018 11:17

....
Last edited by Rakesh on 03 Aug 2018 02:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please post in Naval LCA thread.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SSridhar » 05 Aug 2018 15:42

HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft project to come under IAF control - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu
The government is poised to hand over control of the Bengaluru division of State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the Indian Air Force (IAF). This is to prevent more time and cost overruns on the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. This comes at a particularly crucial time as the next phase of the LCA project, development of the MK2 variant, as well as the country’s next fighter aircraft programme, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), begin to take shape.

“The government has given the go ahead to hand over the entire Bengaluru complex of HAL to the IAF. With this, the fixed wing aircraft division will come under the IAF. The modalities are being worked out,” an official source told this reporter of the process that may take a few months.

HAL resists

HAL manufactures and assembles a range of aircraft and helicopters. However, it has faced criticism for its time and cost overruns and lack of professionalism in project execution. HAL has opposed this move for a long time, fearing erosion of its autonomy.

The LCA programme was sanctioned in 1983 and the aircraft made its first flight in 2001. The IAF had signed two contracts with HAL, one for 20 aircraft in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration signed on March 31, 2006, to be completed by December 2011, and another for 20 aircraft in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard signed on December 23, 2010, which was to be completed by 2016. It is in the process of ordering 83 jets in the Mk 1A configuration.

The IAF constituted the first LCA squadron with just two aircraft in 2016 and, as of July 2018, has inducted only nine aircraft. Tejas has once again missed the FOC in June and the development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed. With this development, HAL’s aircraft division will be headed by a serving three-star officer or an Air Marshal of the IAF, and effectively give the IAF control over the country’s indigenous LCA project.

In addition, three institutions — Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) — which are under the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) are likely to be brought under the direct control of the Chief of the Air Staff. Thus, the entire development cycle of the LCA will have the IAF’s oversight and will ensure timely execution and prevent blame games over delays, the source observed. Details of the specific contours of the move are awaited.

‘Long overdue’

“The IAF should have taken over the LCA programme two decades back, but [it is] good it’s happening at least now,” said Air Marshal M. Matheswaran (Retd), who oversaw the IAF’s fighter procurement in the past. He felt that to make a real difference, the IAF should get the entire cycle under its control, from design, standardisation, production and supply chain. Otherwise, just having one officer at the helm will not change things much, he added.

“Production for 20 FOC aircraft will be taken up after FOC clearance by the ADA, for which the current target is December 2018,” Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha last week.

However, a Defence Ministry official said this is likely to be delayed by another six months as several parameters like gun firing, air-to-air refuelling and new data-linked software defined radios, among others, are yet to be validated. The IAF wants new data links as a standard feature on the FOC variant as communications are an essential feature for an aircraft to operate in a network-centric environment.

HAL is setting up a second assembly line to ramp up production from eight to 16 aircraft a year, in addition to outsourcing major modules to private partners.

Design reboot

The LCA is powered by an American GE-404 engine, which the IAF has stated is underpowered. This is to be corrected in the LCA-Mk2 which would be a larger aircraft powered by the GE-414 engine producing 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the current engine.

“The design change has been launched sometime back. We don’t want just some superficial changes, but a real increase in performance. The target is to meet or exceed the Mirage aircraft in performance,” an IAF official said.

To accommodate the larger and more powerful engine, which also needs more fuel, requires a larger wingspan for the aircraft. This calls for a major design and engineering effort.

“There are concerns and challenges but it is doable,” the officer noted.

The first prototype of the Mk2 is expected to make its debut flight in 2022-23, and complete the IOC and FOC approvals in the next five years. The current target is to have the first squadron ready by 2028.

The IAF intends to have several squadrons of the LCA-Mk2 as it has to replace three Mirage squadrons, three Mig-29 squadrons and six Jaguar squadrons. A squadron typically has about 18 aircraft, 16 fighters and two trainers. However, this can vary, depending on the type of aircraft and the necessity.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 05 Aug 2018 15:53

SSridhar wrote:“The design change has been launched sometime back. We don’t want just some superficial changes, but a real increase in performance. The target is to meet or exceed the Mirage aircraft in performance,” an IAF official said.

Most important part in my opinion. That is a tangible, achievable target. It's not a moonshot. So this time, there is no room to hide or blame IAF. Hold IAF to this statement and deliver by 2028. If even this target cannot be met, then we might as well close shop.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 05 Aug 2018 16:03

ramana wrote:



Every time there is good news about Tejas, inside sources come out to rebut them.

if I was Dr. Bhambre, I would find out the source and ask why he was not informed before he made the Lok Sabha submission to the starred question.
This inside source has just made the Minister cut a sorry figure.

The way starred questions work is a MP submits a question and the concerned Minister gets it answered by his Ministry officials after due diligence so that the answer is factual and true. The reason is the sanctity of the Parliament as the questioner is an elected representative of the people.

So if the news paper sources were true to their office they would have informed the minster first and not some reporter.


The Hindu gang has a vested interest in showing up this govt.

I would go by the statement in parliament.

Also track down the Hindu's "source" and bury him/her.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 05 Aug 2018 16:17

Now that HAL fixed wing will come under IAF, when the employees will go on strike for making them work during regular hours, who will resolve the situation?

MOD as usual has passed the buck. HAL management will make sure IAF does not succeed in increasing the production. After few years IAF will pass the buck back to HAL, with HAL glowing after Victory in the turf war.

National interest. Who cares.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 05 Aug 2018 17:43

nam wrote:Now that HAL fixed wing will come under IAF, when the employees will go on strike for making them work during regular hours, who will resolve the situation?

MOD as usual has passed the buck. HAL management will make sure IAF does not succeed in increasing the production. After few years IAF will pass the buck back to HAL, with HAL glowing after Victory in the turf war.

National interest. Who cares.

Employ army discipline. Fire anyone who goes on strike!

On a serious note, yes you are right. Very difficult for IAF to deal with babus.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 05 Aug 2018 20:39

The article mentions gtre and ade going under iaf control. Whether to laugh or cry?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SSridhar » 05 Aug 2018 20:53

Prasad, in one way this development, if true, looks good because it means that the IAF is now unmistakably and irreversibly behind Tejas and its future versions, doesn't it? It puts to rest serious misgivings about IAF's commitment.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 05 Aug 2018 21:00

Research centers being under IAF is fine. IAF can drive the vision and objectives.

It is the production, specially with unionized HAL which is the biggest problem.

MoD as usual has washed it's hands off, instead of taking proper structural changes. There is an urgent need to have a competitor or two to HAL. Any aircraft build in India should be shared between HAL and a private manufacturer like TASL.

HAL is overloaded. It does not enough skilled manpower, which is very unionized. MoD will not increase manpower, because it does not want more expenses. It also does not want to give contracts to private entity.

Fundamentally we are stuck with HAL, which does not have resources and not able to scale.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 05 Aug 2018 21:25

Trikaal wrote:Employ army discipline. Fire anyone who goes on strike!

On a serious note, yes you are right. Very difficult for IAF to deal with babus.

Even IAF officer can't fire from job a civilian technician. Forget it. Some deciplin, but not hire & fire type.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 05 Aug 2018 21:27

SSridhar wrote:Prasad, in one way this development, if true, looks good because it means that the IAF is now unmistakably and irreversibly behind Tejas and its future versions, doesn't it? It puts to rest serious misgivings about IAF's commitment.

Ishwaro Rakshathu. IN & IAF have to play ball both with the LCA and the AMCA. And the Ghatak.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Aug 2018 23:08

Mostly thos integration will be like how the Navy intehrates into defence projects of DRDO

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 05 Aug 2018 23:32

There seems to be thought of contradictory news
On one hand It is said that LCA 21 is already loaded in jigs for production while on the other hand It is claimed that production of. FOC aircraft with not start till f o c is obtained. What's true?
Similarly on one hand it is stated that air to air refueling is a requirement of foc but on the other hand It is claimed that it is the requirement for mk1A? What's true?
Even for the production line it is not clear whether the production line is 4 + 3 equal to 7 aircraft from two assembly lines or it is 8 + 3 equal to 11 aircraft from two assembly lines?
Wehther the production line for 16 aircraft is cleared or it is still being contemplated or sanctioned or being setup?
Almost all the news items mix official news with their alleged sources and crab it with conjecture and old outdated news therefore everything that is reported is Khichdi

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Aug 2018 02:49

Prasad, The GTRE was founded by IAF officer in the 50s. Somewhere along civilian control of DRDO came and emphasis on research came not on product development

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Aug 2018 03:02

Gyan, The requirements are a mix of musts and wants with sundry sources giving these out.
The musts not yet accomplished are:
Gun firing in air
Air to air refueling
Self jamming pod
Wants are:
Software defined radio
This could end up with avionics impact.

HAL has two lines 5+3 aircraft division.
And 8 in the new facility. Total 16 ac/year.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 06 Aug 2018 05:11

The target is to meet or exceed the Mirage aircraft in performance


We have to meet this in Tejas Mk2 /OT. :)

Wasn't this IAF's favorite fighter jet, and the basic specification baseline for MMRCA as well?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SriKumar » 06 Aug 2018 06:03

ramana wrote:Gyan, The requirements are a mix of musts and wants with sundry sources giving these out.
The musts not yet accomplished are:
Gun firing in air
Air to air refueling
Self jamming pod
Wants are:
Software defined radio
This could end up with avionics impact.

HAL has two lines 5+3 aircraft division.
And 8 in the new facility. Total 16 ac/year.

And this 'new facility' is the one in Nekkundi? If so, that is still under construction, as I understand? Supposed to complete end of next year?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 06 Aug 2018 07:27

So.... Guvernamd says "Take HAL, Take ADA, Take ADE, Take GTRE! No more talk about Imports! Make your own $hit and $hut Up!"
Long time ago, nearing Onam, and totally pissed off on all the discussions on foods to make, the poor village farmer lady (mom of this village boy) exploded like "There are vegetables in the yard, rice in the jar, provisions behind the chula!! Make your own food! I am sick and tired of this!"

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Aug 2018 09:28

Trikaal wrote:
SSridhar wrote:“The design change has been launched sometime back. We don’t want just some superficial changes, but a real increase in performance. The target is to meet or exceed the Mirage aircraft in performance,” an IAF official said.

Most important part in my opinion. That is a tangible, achievable target. It's not a moonshot. So this time, there is no room to hide or blame IAF. Hold IAF to this statement and deliver by 2028. If even this target cannot be met, then we might as well close shop.

I have a distinct feeling that we are about to see a new gtre snecma engine for the next iteration. IAF has been eternally opposed to sanctionable US maal on its Frontline jets, besides it loves the French chories. All in all, a good thing, Der aye and hopefully, durust aye.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Aug 2018 12:17

The decade from now till 2028 will be momentous for Indian Aviation. Will IAF replicate the Navy's success or will they commit infanticide in favor of imports? The IAF Air Marshal will need to have a tenure beyond 2-3 years and more long term.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 06 Aug 2018 12:30

CM ji, the GTRE-Snecma most likely be for upgrades or Mk2++ variant. It is going to take at least 1/2 a decade to put it running.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Aug 2018 13:06

1000 hrs of ground test and maybe 500 hr of flying test would be must for a fighter engine.
points to funding needed to build some 6 once the first is tested to an extent and then parallelize. JSF build a lot of airframes early.

trickle funding through td, pv, sp will consume one decade.

and we need BOTH a IL76 flying testbed and a couple of instrumented SU30 with segmented FCS for this. the FCS of the plane and engine is isolated from the test engine for safety i read. the F16XL had it.

engine dev is not a cheap business but every one of the P5 are seriously into it. thats the hallmark of a real tiger vs a shallow pretender.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 06 Aug 2018 13:26

ramana wrote:Prasad, The GTRE was founded by IAF officer in the 50s. Somewhere along civilian control of DRDO came and emphasis on research came not on product development

GTREs failings are many. We've seen many gyanis expound here as to what they were. Question now becomes, even if the IAF can whip these organisations 'up to shape', will they also be able to provide dedicated funding?
But, we're jumping the gun I guess. We have no details and until then..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby jaysimha » 06 Aug 2018 17:25

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... ID=1541715
Ministry of Defence
Production of Tejas Aircraft
Posted On: 06 AUG 2018 3:57PM by PIB Delhi

For production of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has got orders from Indian Air Force (IAF) for 40 aircrafts {20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard and 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard}. 20 IOC contract was signed on 31st March 2006 to be completed by December 2011 and 20 FOC contract was signed on 23rd December 2010 to be completed by 2016. IOC for LCA Tejas was received in December, 2013.

The value of IOC contract for 20 No. Tejas aircrafts is Rs.2701.70 Crores (Revised to Rs.2812.91 Crores). Amendment in IOC contract has been sought for Rs.5362.17 Crores as part of Change Order on account of changes in build standards for Integration entailing procurement of additional Line Replaceable Units (LRUs), Raw materials, composite materials, Bought out items and consumables, tooling etc.

The value of FOC contract for 20 Tejas aircrafts is Rs.5989.39 Crores.

Out of total 20 IOC aircrafts, 9 aircrafts have been delivered by HAL to IAF till date.

Besides, 40 LCA Tejas aircrafts (20 IOC & 20 FOC), Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has cleared acquisition of 83 LCA Mk1A aircraft with enhanced capabilities with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile, Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ) and Air-to-Air Refuelling (AAR) for which quotation has been submitted by HAL.

This information was given by Raksha Rajya Mantri Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Harivansh in Rajya Sabha today.

NAo/Nampi/Rajib/HS

(Release ID: 1541715) Visitor Counter : 34

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 06 Aug 2018 23:40

Cain Marko wrote:
Trikaal wrote:Most important part in my opinion. That is a tangible, achievable target. It's not a moonshot. So this time, there is no room to hide or blame IAF. Hold IAF to this statement and deliver by 2028. If even this target cannot be met, then we might as well close shop.

I have a distinct feeling that we are about to see a new gtre snecma engine for the next iteration. IAF has been eternally opposed to sanctionable US maal on its Frontline jets, besides it loves the French chories. All in all, a good thing, Der aye and hopefully, durust aye.



I really hope they don't do an "Arjun tank" on the engine and keep changing requirements and moving goal posts with incompetent project management.

Define the scope of the requirements NOW so there is no changing of final targets for acceptance by the IAF.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Aug 2018 01:55

Me too, but I think this move gives the AF some much needed leadership and stake in the program. They will be more accountable for it's failures.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 07 Aug 2018 09:43

jaysimha wrote:
The value of IOC contract for 20 No. Tejas aircrafts is Rs.2701.70 Crores (Revised to Rs.2812.91 Crores). Amendment in IOC contract has been sought for Rs.5362.17 Crores as part of Change Order on account of changes in build standards for Integration entailing procurement of additional Line Replaceable Units (LRUs), Raw materials, composite materials, Bought out items and consumables, tooling etc.

The value of FOC contract for 20 Tejas aircrafts is Rs.5989.39 Crores.


What the heck did they add to IOC Tejas that justifies doubling the price? Does making the aircraft maintainence friendly truly cost as much as twice the original price? As far as I know, all they changed in IOC is standardize LRUs and make it somewhat maintainence friendly.

The rate at which HAL is jacking up prices, I won't be surprised if they ask Rs 1000 crore per Mk2. Serious accounting needs to be done.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 07 Aug 2018 09:47

I think those LRUs are requalified. And includes long lead items. Extra LRUs to swap out those that don't test good. Ideally should not happen but line will get frozen if a LRU fails test.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Aug 2018 10:18

I think the IAF is enetering into PBL contracts which sometimes is 5-10% of the aircratf cost, for 5 years it could make up 20-25% of the aircraft's cost.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/boeing-receives-2-billion-c-17-aircraft-sustainment-contract/

Rakesh
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 07 Aug 2018 21:44

FWIW....Ajai Shukla article

Air Force, HAL tussle to control Tejas fighter production
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/08/ ... tejas.html

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Aug 2018 01:08

Rakesh wrote:FWIW....Ajai Shukla article

Air Force, HAL tussle to control Tejas fighter production
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/08/ ... tejas.html



Tejas cost rises threefold from Rs 135 crore ($20 million to Rs 400 crore ($58 million) per fighter

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 7th Aug 18

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has long opposed the large-scale induction of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), could soon be given charge of manufacturing the Tejas in the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) complex in Bengaluru.

And Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, who has not so far toured the facilities of HAL, which remains India’s only aircraft manufacturer, is poised to accept the IAF’s bid for control.

The defence ministry, the IAF and HAL have all declined to comment on this development. However, authoritative ministry sources say an announcement can be expected soon.

Officials in HAL and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – the nodal agencies responsible for the manufacture and development respectively of the Tejas – argue that handing over Tejas manufacture to the IAF at this point would effectively seal its fate, given the air force’s well-known preference for costly, imported fighters like the Rafale.

{Non sequitor. Its not like ADA/HAl have been doing a fabulous job. And preferences for Rafale is due to its capabilities not just because is an import.}


The IAF has no tradition of manufacturing. There is a major cultural gap between flying fighters and building them,” admits one ministry official.

{Same with the ministry also. No tradition of building products!}

However, ADA’s development delays and HAL’s failure to ramp up production quickly and cheaply has weakened their influence with the ministry, which is inclined to believe that the IAF can resolve the difficulties.

ADA, which falls under the Defence R&D Organisation, is still struggling to obtain final operational certification (FOC) for the Tejas Mark 1, almost five years after obtaining initial operational certification (IOC) in December 2013.

Business Standard learns that about 1,100 test points still remain to be cleared before the Tejas is granted FOC. This would normally require about 200 test flights, given that a well-organised flight test programme clears 5-6 test points in each test flight.

However, lack of coordination between ADA designers and the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), which is headed by a senior IAF pilot, means this seldom happens. That has slowed the progress towards FOC.

“We will be lucky to obtain FOC by end-2019,” says an officer close to the Tejas project.

{This person should be transferred as he is directly contradicting the Minister's reply to the starred question in Lok Sabha. If he is so confident aaht it needs a year more,then why did he not tell his superiors?}


There is also the issue of the Tejas’ rising cost. On Monday, the defence ministry told parliament that the initial order for 20 Mark 1 Tejas, which HAL had contracted in 2006 for Rs 2702 crore (and subsequently revised to Rs 2,813 crore) is now being sought to be retrospectively revised to Rs 5,362 crore – or Rs 268 crore per aircraft.

The ministry said this was on account of“changes in build standards for integration entailing procurement of additional Line Replaceable Units (LRUs), raw materials, composite materials, bought out items and consumables, tooling etc.”

The Tejas in 2006 is not the one being built in 2018. Twelve years of inflation and extra work have to be accounted for. Then add the long lead items and extra LRUs to establish the line balance. You need a set of mfg spares to ensure the assembly is not hel up in the jig due to test item failure. Also 2006 estimate is a WAG. Now its more like a SWAG.}[/url]

The ministry also told parliament that a second contract for 20 Tejas Mark 1 fighters in the FOC standard, was concluded in 2010 for Rs 5,989 crore, or just short of Rs 300 crore per LCA.

[i]{looks like the price for this is more in line with the IOC planes.}



Besides these 40 aircraft, the ministry said it had accorded in-principle clearance for buying 83 Tejas Mark 1A fighters with enhanced capabilities, including “Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile, Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ) and Air-to-Air Refuelling (AAR) for which quotation has been submitted by HAL.”

Business Standard understands that HAL has priced the Tejas Mark 1A at more than Rs 400 crore per aircraft – only marginally less than the Sukhoi-30MKI fighters it builds at Nashik.

This cost could rise further, given that the air force is raising its capability demands from the Tejas Mark 1A. It is learnt the IAF has now demanded that the fighter be equipped with a sophisticated “software defined radio”, which does not equip a single IAF fighter so far.


To ramp up the Tejas production rate from 8 fighters per year to 16, HAL is building a second integration line in its Bengaluru complex, at a cost of Rs 1,231 crore.

Last November, Singapore’s visiting defence minister flew in the Tejas fighter. He was followed in February by the US Air Force chief, General David Goldfein. Both had praise for the aircraft. But the IAF’s endorsement continues to be conditional because of development and manufacturing delays.

I think IAF seriously needs to think of block change modifications. To hold up FOC aircraft with a non existent SDR which is not yet on any plane is plainn short sighted.

They can get this SDR as part of mid life upgrade.
This is how costs go up. and can't complain about delays and cost increases.



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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 08 Aug 2018 10:53

makes sense to go for spread-spectrum and ultrawide band comms and reduced interferences. that would also mean the radio network mesh needs to be augmented as well.


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