Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 20 Aug 2018 21:22

Dileep wrote:
ramana wrote:CSIR completes Tejas HUD development.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 67233?s=19

I don't get it!! The MK1 HUD is in production already. The MK2 HUD is in PDR stage. So, what goes NOW?

History shows that the CSIO HUD beat all the competition hands down, and withstood pressure from various interests in its way to deployment on board Tejas. It may not look sexy like the Rafale's frameless one, but functionally it is as good or better I hear. The frameless looks better from the outside onlee. Once you are sitting in the seat, you don't see the frame at all!!

The entire optics is machined and polished at CSIO. Building a wide area lens system with no visible abberation is a great achievement indeed.

Yes sir. CSIOs HUD is the brightest in the world. For Mk2, they are trying to widen it.

All this Brouhaha is because CSIO sent out a tweet saying: CSIO completes Tejas HUD development. Everybody started jumping. :D

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 21 Aug 2018 00:21

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 21 Aug 2018 00:22

looks far better than the 16 s or 18s or the 2000s HUD

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 21 Aug 2018 00:25

Image

rafale hud in comparison

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 21 Aug 2018 02:17


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Aug 2018 05:59

kit wrote:looks far better than the 16 s or 18s or the 2000s HUD

But it is not frameless, tsk tsk.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 21 Aug 2018 07:01

kit wrote:rafale hud in comparison


That Rafale? I thought this one is Rafale
Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 21 Aug 2018 22:19

why the double glass?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2018 22:32

unless I am mistaken, the JSF has no HUD.
maybe the HMDS is enhanced to show the hud stuff.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Aug 2018 00:02

I cannot do cut-and-paste of the article. The TOI website is not allowing me.

CSIO develops tech for Tejas air-to-air refuelling at night
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 466539.cms

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 22 Aug 2018 00:25

SaiK wrote:why the double glass?

Watch the video I posted above. Watch from 55 minutes onwards for the question you asked.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 22 Aug 2018 01:12

Dileep wrote:
kit wrote:rafale hud in comparison


That Rafale? I thought this one is Rafale
Image

Where is the leather seat to go with sun roof?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Aug 2018 02:10

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1029973185146417155 ----> ACM Dhanoa, CAS, Indian AF has said that the performance of the Tejas in air-to-ground weapon delivery was observed to be exceptional during Op Gaganshakti. He also said, "With active support of HAL the aircraft was found to be highly reliable during conduct of surge ops."

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Aug 2018 02:14

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1029975044582072325 ---> First flight of the HAL Tejas Mk1A variant is expected in 2020. And the squadron in AFS Sulur being equipped with Tejas Mk1s will reach full strength before mid-2019 for sure.

So No 45 Flying Daggers Sqn, are expected to have 20 aircraft by 30 June 2019. Keeping fingers crossed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Aug 2018 02:21

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 9614111745 ---> Quick questions @anshumig -
1. Does advance in weapon systems, weapon delivery and also threat level require a dedicated low-level striker like Mig-27?
2. Can Tejas Mk1/1A do the mud-moving role of MiG-27?
3. Does delta wing configuration of Tejas impose penalty in this role?

Responses from Anshuman Mainkar (retired fighter pilot) and Angad Bedi...

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1029604232133890048 --->
1. No. High Op Costs and rapidly changing vectors demand lesser numbers of potent platforms.
2. Tejas is primarily a MiG-21 replacement. Su-25 / A-10 are in the MiG-27 ballpark.
3. No. The Mirage 2000 C/D were dedicated GA, recently retired. Don’t think dedicated LL is mandated.

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 7149937665 ---> Tejas actually has similar payload/RoA as MiG-27 in strike role. The real fun is in the modern HMI, which makes life MUCH easier when flying and fighting. Many current MiG-27 pilots (ML/UPG) I interviewed said they’d be very happy to switch to LCA Mk1.

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1029655547052584960 ---> I was referring to pure strike platforms. But yes, the MiG-27 role can be performed by the LCA. In fact, Su / M2000 / Rafale can do it even better. The pilots you refer to won’t mind shifting to either. More flying hours and better quality exposure is the winner here!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 22 Aug 2018 04:22

Dileep wrote:
kit wrote:rafale hud in comparison


That Rafale? I thought this one is Rafale


same , different angles

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Aug 2018 04:38

kit wrote:same, different angles

Is that the HUD from the rear cockpit of the Rafale? I am sorry, but does the Rafale even have a HUD in the rear cockpit? I tried looking for one, but could not find it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 22 Aug 2018 14:52

Indranil, thanks for the video. Glad to hear that there's development ongoing to improve the product.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2018 04:59

Thx Indranil.

Is it for the double beam combiner purpose? how Rafale HUD does this? meaning, I get to see only one glass.

It would be interesting to see the holographic displays going forward especially when he mentions it has to work in bright sunlight.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2018 08:46


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2018 14:38

All the MIG-27 role capable aircraft mentioned have one major drawback.lack of armoured cockpit,etc. If you look at the pics of MIG-27s,optimised for CS,you can see slabs of armour on either side of the cockpit As posted several times,over 60% of our air losses in the past wars were not from A-to-A
combat but from ground fire.The same at Kargil. Expensive birds like the Rafale flying low would suffer the same fate as RAF Tornados during the Iraq War (Desert Storm).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Aug 2018 15:01

^^philip would you know how will carbon composites fare as compared to full metal body?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 23 Aug 2018 15:05

Philip, what % of the surface area is the cockpit? I suspect there are lot more areas than just the cockpit that'll bear the worst of ground fire. Tejas will deliver same payload at higher precision and much higher sustained sortie rate than Mig-27. The composite structure also has better survival chance. It is a generation ahead of Mig-27.

Kartik wrote:Just a beautiful pic of an IAF MiG-27

Image
Last edited by JTull on 23 Aug 2018 15:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 23 Aug 2018 15:05

Philip wrote:All the MIG-27 role capable aircraft mentioned have one major drawback.lack of armoured cockpit,etc. If you look at the pics of MIG-27s,optimised for CS,you can see slabs of armour on either side of the cockpit As posted several times,over 60% of our air losses in the past wars were not from A-to-A
combat but from ground fire.The same at Kargil. Expensive birds like the Rafale flying low would suffer the same fate as RAF Tornados during the Iraq War (Desert Storm).

The point is the Rafael or Rambha would probably approach the same mission differently no.
You are looking a particular mission in isolation and in the context of yesteryears...perhaps...

Not arguing Admiral but perhaps the IAF has some idea of how it would replicate the Mig 27s role with newer more capable aircraft....armoured cockpit notwithstanding!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2018 18:43

Latest Vayu, Tejas costs.
MOD concerns about LCA prices.
Last edited by suryag on 23 Aug 2018 19:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Innuendo laden statements edited out

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 23 Aug 2018 19:34

But is there a different way to do CAS? Interdiction yes, but CAS mostly will be one way of doing, you go low, you go slow, ID foes from nearby friends (both equally camouflaged), where fighting line is zig zagged, most people/tanks/vehicle look similar, find them, blow them ...and in return take heavy ground fire -- you need your titanium armor, two widely placed engines and heavy redundancy. If you plot the answer is A-10, SU25 ...for lesser Mig 27.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 23 Aug 2018 19:51

You have a point but the counter is that PGM and new gen avionics can replace the old low and slow tactics. Not wholly but substantially, for what they can't do they compensate by doing other amazing things.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Aug 2018 20:39

CSIR laboratory to manufacture critical composite air-frame components for LCA Tejas

Usage of indigenously developed technology lightens air-frame by 20%


CSIR-National Aerospace Laboratories (CSIR-NAL) has received an order of more than Rs 100cr for delivering critical composite air-frame components to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), for the LCA-Tejas Full Operational Capability (FOC) standard aircraft.

Dr. Harsh Vardhan, Minister, S&T and Vice President, CSIR congratulated the team of CSIR-NAL and said that this is a unique effort and highlights CSIR’s commitment towards the Make in India initiative. “The cutting edge technology is one of the critical technologies that make the LCA a 4th generation fighter aircraft” added Dr. Vardhan.

DG-CSIR, Dr Girish Sahni while congratulating the team at CSIR-NAL stated that the use of this co-curing technology in LCA has resulted in 40% reduction in the part count, 50% reduction in the number of fasteners, and 30% reduction in the assembly time when compared to a conventional metallic air-frame. The usage of composites has led to an overall weight reduction of about 20% in the air-frame.

“It is a matter of pride for the country that LCA’s percentage deployment of composites is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class anywhere in the world and this order of Rs 100 crore plus value is a major achievement for CSIR” said Dr. Sahni.

CSIR-NAL’s collaboration with LCA program started from technology demonstrator (2 aircrafts) to prototype development (5 aircrafts) to limited series production (8 aircrafts) and Initial Operational Capability (IOC) standard production aircrafts (SP1 to SP20). The initial IOC order of 20 sets is nearing completion. The challenges were to develop the co-cured complex components indigenously during the time of technology denials and sanctions from other countries. Moreover, the autoclaves necessary for processing composite materials were also developed indigenously by CSIR-NAL. This homegrown technology developed by CSIR-NAL was used in realizing primary air-frame components of LCA like Fin, Rudder, Wing Spars and Fairings, Centre Fuselage and Main Landing Gear components.

CSIR-NAL has now further received an order to supply additional 20 sets of parts for FOC standard aircraft (SP21-SP40) at a cost of Rs 100cr plus including development of tooling. CSIR-NAL has identified a private industry, M/s Tata Advanced Materials Limited (TAML), Bengaluru, as a production partner.
Last edited by ramana on 23 Aug 2018 23:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold ramana

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 23 Aug 2018 23:25

I don't know what is new about this development. The order is new. But NAL has been manufacturing these parts with TAML for a long time. The Verity process is a really a good achievement, but I havn't read of any new developments since the development of the cocured skin under the engine bay. I always hear talk about making the underside skin of the wing cocured with the ribs and spars as a single structure, and the top of the wing skin as another structure, but nothing has come of that as yet. When that day arrives, I will deploy my lungi.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2018 23:49

The new is FOC parts are being ordered.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Philip » 24 Aug 2018 03:29

Innuendo? Why edit the Vayu cost figures which are official? The MOD's concern was in the mainstream media earlier as well. Facts can't be concealed and that the MOD has set up a committee with a principal adviser is most commendable.Costs do matter when we have precious little in the kitty.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 24 Aug 2018 04:56

Philip, You have my e-mail. Please do send me the cost figures.
Thanks, ramana

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 24 Aug 2018 06:02

I think robotic engineering and is the key for CSIR-NAL venture to increase in reduction % of joints, fasteners, for each LRUs, or even considering combining multiple LRUs into one composite unit for such reductions (design complexities).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 24 Aug 2018 08:58

1. Using robots will increase accuracy and decrease time on jigs but will not decrease part count.

2. To put things into perspective. This entire order is worth a whopping hold-your-breath 16 million dollars. How can they justify a high precision robot developed for orders of this size?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby RKumar » 24 Aug 2018 14:10

Indranil wrote:1. Using robots will increase accuracy and decrease time on jigs but will not decrease part count.

2. To put things into perspective. This entire order is worth a whopping hold-your-breath 16 million dollars. How can they justify a high precision robot developed for orders of this size?


Your 1 and 2 statement is contradicting. For me, it is ok to have high precision tooling. It will be reused for producing other spare parts or components. It is good to invest in good tools and get benefits in long term.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 24 Aug 2018 15:28

^Same robot usually cannot do different jobs other than the ones it is calibrated for. If the robot is a skin fastener robot then you can't expect it to assemble fuselage. So if the order is small, the purchase of robot will be uneconomical.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 24 Aug 2018 19:55

RKumar wrote:
Indranil wrote:Your 1 and 2 statement is contradicting. For me, it is ok to have high precision tooling. It will be reused for producing other spare parts or components. It is good to invest in good tools and get benefits in long term.

Saar form this statement it does not appear you been close to mechanical manufacturing and costing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby RKumar » 24 Aug 2018 20:22

^

I am just another chotta abdul ... so please bear with me and no saar :)

but my PoV is based on the following 2 facts unless I have messed up the discussion context ...

1. The current order is for 20 kits - 16 million. If these different components can be made using this tooling. It should also be possible to make other components in the future of course after required adjustment in tooling.
2. We know with certain confidence that there will be further orders for at least 250+ kits - 200+ million worth

PS: I am not a mechanical adbul :lol:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Aug 2018 20:50

RKumar, can you provide a costing model on how much the required adjustment in tooling will be? An estimate would be fine.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Dileep » 24 Aug 2018 21:38

RKumar, "tooling" in Mechanical engineering is not the same as "tools" in software :)


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