Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby VKumar » 10 Sep 2018 23:21

Singha wrote:great to hear...

Chetak our limitation is not fitting probes to fighters....we have 300+ fighters already with probe (su30, jags, m2k, mig29upg, tejas), but the fact we only have 6 refuelers with limited fuel.

these 6 will be heavily tasked to support the Phalcons in a war situation.

we need the 90 t fuel of the A330 MRTT vs the 40t of the Midas to refuel the hungry heavies and support CAP units all over.


Once again I say, for every squadron of fighters we need at least one AWACS and on refueler.

Buy additional fighters only alongwith these necessities.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby VinodTK » 10 Sep 2018 23:29

Video of Tejas refuling

Economic Times

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rahul M » 10 Sep 2018 23:37

naruto wrote:
Ashokk wrote:


Is it that drop tanks can also be refuelled? Can anyone confirm this.

this is a non-trivial question, googling gives me this answer https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... ects-go-to
Image

As can be seen, the aerial refueling system's fuel load goes into the same one as the ground refueling one, through the same lines. Another thing is that in case external fuel tanks are connected, they can be topped up first (they are depressurized once aerial refueling commences and fuel transfer from them stops) before the internal tanks are filled up.

The fuel goes to the center-line(fuselage) or the wing tanks, from where it goes into the reservoir tanks, which supplies to the engine, just like 'regular' fuel.


note that this for f-16 but tejas should be similar.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nash » 10 Sep 2018 23:40

https://twitter.com/ChethanKumarTOI/status/1039100059348959233

WATCH VIDEO: Tejas LSP8 completed actual mid-air refuelling by transferring 1,900Kg fuel from IAF IL78 mid-air refueling tanker. The trial was carried out at an altitude of 20,000 ft, speed was 270 knots.


This the view of LSP-8, not sure of authenticity.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 11 Sep 2018 00:27

Way to go Tejas!!! attaboy!!!

I recently watched a NOVA documentary about JSF competition on Netflix. The documentary was pretty authentic with direct access to both companies' design teams and test crew. Both Boeing and LM tried to certify the refueling probe as soon as practically possible. LM got its prototype AAR certified with in a month of first flight, on the other hand Boeing kept trying until it was clear that it's prototype can either carry telemetry equipment/antenna (long stick coming out of the nose) or drogue probe not both or it risks a crash. LM was using the boom type refueling so it didn't have that problem.

Both companies prioritized AAR over other testing because they could do a lot more testing with AAR rather than head home to refuel every 45 min. Unfortunately LCA uses drogue and probe exactly what Boeing had for it's X plane. Boeing could not get AAR certification early in the competition so ended up loosing its lead in testing to LM. Still I think LCA should have got its AAR certification lot earlier than being the last thing in the priority list. It would have helped tremendously in expanding the envelop on much faster rate. I am sure they had good reasons (and circumstances that could not be helped) for it but it is a missed opportunity nonetheless.


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 02:17

Beautiful article JTull. With each milestone achieved, the common theme I get from them is that the Tejas is one well built bird and is truly a dream to fly. Kudos to the scientists & engineers at ADA & HAL and to the pilots and ground crew of the Indian Air Force. The Tejas has certainly a bright future ahead of her. I reproduce a part of the article that will make *ANY* jingo proud!

When Tejas succeeds, we all succeed!

Interestingly, Tejas might have set a new record for fighter development world over by making a wet contact during the initial week of a trial itself.

“If you look at any fighter programme world over, normally, it will take a minimum of six months to achieve a perfect shot. To get it right at the first attempt itself is a phenomenal achievement,” adds the official.


In all the excitement, Karan Saar your post below (on page 56 of this dhaaga) got lost.

Folks, please re-read what Karan has written below. Imagine the operational advantages like taking off from a high-altitude airbase like Leh.

As Karan said, this really is a BIG deal.

Karan M wrote:This is really a big deal. A/C can take off with empty tanks (for optimal take off performance), get refueled in the air. Or they can fly large distances - before getting to the FBA, can fill their tanks and keep their internal fuel available for combat/high maneuverability situations.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 02:26

Video of Tejas refuelling from the Tejas cockpit itself! :)

You can hear the pride (in the tone) from Wing Commander Siddharth Singh, when he says "CONTACT!"

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1039107310390468608 ---> And here's the first video of the LCA Tejas tanking up at 20,000 feet for the first time. From Group Captain Siddharth Singh's LSP8 cockpit.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 11 Sep 2018 02:36

chetak wrote:
nam wrote:
Read somewhere, it is a Cobham kit( probe) . I don't know how much of the entire fueling setup is local. HAL may have gained experience on Hawk Advanced project.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/hawk1.jpg

There are Mig21s with probes. So countries have done it. Not sure how much IAF is interested in such a option.


Thanks saar.

It is not an off the shelf kit which is bolted on. None of the AA refueling probes are that way. The probe was custom designed for Tejas by ADA and Cobham (actually twice) based on many parameters. Obviously the probes shape is closely tied to the aircraft's shape. The aircraft's software and hardware also need to be changed. For example, in LCA's case, in the second iteration, the probe was moved to the optimal position and inclination where it doesn't clutter the pilot's vision during normal flying, but is easily in view when refueling. But this position was troublesome for some air data sensors. But LCA is a FBW, It can't fly with erratic readings. They had to come up with some nice tricks.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Picklu » 11 Sep 2018 03:45

LCA carries only 2250 litre of fuel internally?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 11 Sep 2018 04:00

Picklu wrote:LCA carries only 2250 litre of fuel internally?


kgs! not liters. Close to 3000 liters.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 11 Sep 2018 04:02

So they moved 1900 kgs which is roughly 2200-2300 liters of fuel transfer. Did they transfer it all to external tanks? Given that it is carrying 1200 * 2 liters or a little bit everywhere?

At the end when they move 4500 liters to Tejas that will be something! Pushing the envelope to 700-1000 km radius depending on configuration.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2018 05:03

Diff is boeing and LM would have company owned
Refuelers

Also even the mighty usaf has only 120 refuelers if using everything and 25 awacs all in centralized units

Nobody has luxury of refuelers and awacs for every sqdn


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 11 Sep 2018 07:21

shaun wrote:Image


That picture made me so emotional! Reminded me of the day several years ago, around 2009 or so, when I purchased 'The Tejas Story' by Air Marshal Rajkumar and its cover featured 3 in service IAF Tejas fighters peeling off..It showed them with refueling probes and each time I saw that book cover, I wondered when that day would come when our very own fighter would defend our skies. She's one giant step closer to doing that now. :D

Image

This book is a must buy and a must read for all jingos and Tejas fans. It will give an idea as to what has really been achieved.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 08:48

Kartik: Is the book available on Amazon?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bala Vignesh » 11 Sep 2018 11:40

I had deployed my lungi, literally, yesterday and did a little jig when I saw this news!!! It’s an incredible moment for Indian aeronautical agencies!!

Unfortunately, Singhaji is bang on the money with his point on the lack of refuelling assets! While the new 90T capacity MRTT would be great, but the numbers wouldn’t be nearly sufficient for us to handle the demand which would spread far and wide.

I personally feel for our needs it’s better to have more smaller tankers that we can spread out to take care of the demands in each sector, assisted by a MRTT/Midas. Ideally something like the A310MRTT. But considering how the of the platform is, we could actually use the A321 for this!!

Sorry about OT!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Sep 2018 12:40

Bala Vignesh wrote:I had deployed my lungi, literally, yesterday and did a little jig when I saw this news!!! It’s an incredible moment for Indian aeronautical agencies!!

Unfortunately, Singhaji is bang on the money with his point on the lack of refuelling assets! While the new 90T capacity MRTT would be great, but the numbers wouldn’t be nearly sufficient for us to handle the demand which would spread far and wide.

I personally feel for our needs it’s better to have more smaller tankers that we can spread out to take care of the demands in each sector, assisted by a MRTT/Midas. Ideally something like the A310MRTT. But considering how the of the platform is, we could actually use the A321 for this!!

Sorry about OT!!


To all the air warfare gurus is it possible to

- conceptualise a specific mission into China
- identify the strike package
- identify CAP requirements
- identify refuelling requirements for that specific mission

I feel that there is a lot of "I feel" and "I think" but the lack of aerial refuelling assets would be better highlighted by a case study that could bring this to life. Alas I am not sufficiently competent to address this....

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Sep 2018 12:46

^^in a conflict with china, would it be safe to assume now that we will have US/allied tankers available to us?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 11 Sep 2018 12:52

ArjunPandit wrote:^^in a conflict with china, would it be safe to assume now that we will have US/allied tankers available to us?



Certainly.

We should be able to see them via our satellites, sitting pretty on the ground.

All fuelled up and no place to go.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Sep 2018 13:19

chetak wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^in a conflict with china, would it be safe to assume now that we will have US/allied tankers available to us?



Certainly.

We should be able to see them via our satellites, sitting pretty on the ground.

All fuelled up and no place to go.

:rotfl: :rotfl:
but on a serious note, do you think the Chinese will leave the sattelites, afterall they have tested the ASAT. :evil: :-?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Sep 2018 13:24

But we have the Midas touch!!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 11 Sep 2018 13:47

Lungi Dance Time!!!! One of the major concerns of IAF addressed today. The cheetah has grown the fourth leg! Finally, FOC looks to be in sight.

They should do atleast one refueling with Su-30 because that is what the plan really is, to fuel up Tejas through Su-30s near border before we send them laden with gifts for Pakis.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 11 Sep 2018 14:05

ArjunPandit wrote:
chetak wrote:

Certainly.

We should be able to see them via our satellites, sitting pretty on the ground.

All fuelled up and no place to go.

:rotfl: :rotfl:
but on a serious note, do you think the Chinese will leave the sattelites, afterall they have tested the ASAT. :evil: :-?


No one will keep quiet if space based assets are attacked.

The raison d'etre with such assets is that everyone knows and accepts that they are there. Taking one out is a very major provocation, almost akin to making a declaration of war.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 11 Sep 2018 14:20

ks_sachin wrote:But we have the Midas touch!!!!

Good ONE !!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 11 Sep 2018 14:21

A 18 year old bottle shall be opened on Saturday Night !!
Eff Yes Moment for the Tejas team this crowd who supported and believed in the 3 legged cheetah !!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 11 Sep 2018 14:32

naruto wrote:
JTull wrote:What more confirmation do you want? A phone call from HAL CMD?


Sorry to bother you, should have posed the question better. I did not know that air to air refuelling can also fill the drop tanks. Until now I thought it was only internal fuel tanks, that is why I asked if someone can confirm that drop tanks can also be filled during air to air refuelling. I got it now.


its okay, I am sure he meant in Jest.
Please keep asking the simple and basic questions.

A lot of more non-specialised knowledge should come out of this and flow across the country and down to the grassroots.
You asking these kind of questions is exactly what this forum is all about

Information Warfare via Education and Debate

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 11 Sep 2018 14:33

enaiel wrote:Great news! What's left for FOC?

1. BVR [In progress, Derby test fired 2018]
2. In-Flight Refueling [In progress, Wet test completed 2018]
3. Gun Trials [In progress, Ground firing completed 2015?]

Rest everything is completed AFAIK. Anything I'm missing?


This is a good list.
@rakesh

can we add this to the first page please ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 11 Sep 2018 15:15

What about various WVR Missiles like Python?

The other point is progress on HAL expansion of production capacity to 16 from 8. Though till date HAL has not even hit 8

Can HAL produce 8 in 2018-19 and produce 16 in 2019-2020

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 11 Sep 2018 17:14

@singha - We have 272 (-8) SU30MKI to refuel them. Even Mig 29 have buddy refueling. More Midas or whatever is good, but we are covered.
Let's look at the use case, the plane takes off with max fuel and load (one can argue, less fuel and more load, but none of these planes are limited by fuel load to compromise on weapon load), from interior (1- no need to refuel at this point, as it is full), crosses into TSP or TSPF (TSP's friend) territory, (2 -small use case for refueling for fighters that have taken off from hinterland, since near border contested airspace), 3- refueling in hostile airspace - suicidal but needed),coming back from raid (4-in enemy or own territory near border) or way back in own territory -5.

For all cases except 5, I would trust SU30MKI to provide me a-a refueling than a Midas or anything else. Another 6-10 tankers wouldn't hurt, but we are not in that bad shape.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby John » 11 Sep 2018 17:39

chetak wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: :rotfl: :rotfl:
but on a serious note, do you think the Chinese will leave the sattelites, afterall they have tested the ASAT. :evil: :-?


No one will keep quiet if space based assets are attacked.

The raison d'etre with such assets is that everyone knows and accepts that they are there. Taking one out is a very major provocation, almost akin to making a declaration of war.

One thing Gravity taught me was ASAT weapons are bad :D.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kersi » 11 Sep 2018 18:20

Trikaal wrote:Lungi Dance Time!!!! One of the major concerns of IAF addressed today. The cheetah has grown the fourth leg!


Tejas is now a FIVE legged cheetah !

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Sep 2018 18:39

Khalsa wrote:A 18 year old bottle shall be opened on Saturday Night !!
Eff Yes Moment for the Tejas team this crowd who supported and believed in the 3 legged cheetah !!


Please be nationalistic in your intake when displaying your pride!!!!!

Old Monk is more apt....

Be Indian, Drink Indian Fly Indian...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Sep 2018 18:40

Kersi wrote:
Trikaal wrote:Lungi Dance Time!!!! One of the major concerns of IAF addressed today. The cheetah has grown the fourth leg!


Tejas is now a FIVE legged cheetah !



4 legs plus big danda?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 11 Sep 2018 19:03

chetak wrote:
One question, saar.

is the AA refuelling system locally developed and qualified ?? or

has an already existing AA refuelling kit with the probe been integrated and then the system qualified on the LCA by flight test??

Maybe we could look at our short legged MiGs too and maybe give them such a AAR capability to possibly extend their utility and operational envelope??


IFR System (or we can think of it as a sub-system of the Fuel system) includes the probe, the internal plumbing including various pumps and valves (from what I remember from AI-17, there are quite a few of them) and the FCS mode for IFR. Some of the components bought as COTS, some designed and developed specifically for Tejas (most notably the Cobham probe designed for LCA by Cobham, its not COTS as we know the probe was one of the key items delaying IFR capability), but ADA can take full credit of design and qualification of the "IFR system" of Tejas.

MiGs don't really have airframe life left, no point in investing money on this.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 19:18

Khalsa wrote:
enaiel wrote:Great news! What's left for FOC?

1. BVR [In progress, Derby test fired 2018]
2. In-Flight Refueling [In progress, Wet test completed 2018]
3. Gun Trials [In progress, Ground firing completed 2015?]

Rest everything is completed AFAIK. Anything I'm missing?


This is a good list.
@rakesh

can we add this to the first page please ?

That is indeed a very good list by enaiel, which I will add in the first page. However, I would need exact dates (even the month & year is fine). I am aiming to keep that first page as an encyclopedia, so I want it to be as accurate as possible.

Secondly, I also want to find out the dates for the hot refueling (aircraft on the ground, but engine still running) they recently did on the Tejas as well. I want to add that to the list as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby enaiel » 11 Sep 2018 19:55

I got that list from here: https://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/india/tejas-inches-closer-to-foc-crucial-trials-coming-up-final-operational-clearance-1.1629819
“In the air-to-air role, we have already fired the R-73 and it is the turn of Derby in guided mode now. In the air-to-ground phase, different types of bombs have already been dropped and tested. There are some software updates needed to fine-tune the accuracy of these missions,” an official told Mathrubhumi on Wednesday.

“Software upgradation might happen even after FOC. We have already integrated the air-to-air-refuelling-probe on LSP-8 and it will soon undertake trials. Flight envelope checks are being done to see any variations in the aerodynamics performance,” says the official.
He said the engineers wanted to ensure that there is absolutely no influence on the air data parameters, post integration of the refuelling probe.
“First dry runs will be executed followed by wet fuel transfer. It is a complex mission,” adds the official.

The Russian gun (Gsh-23) has already been integrated on LSP-7 for the ground butt firing trials at Nasik. This will be followed by flight trials in the second quarter of the year.

The envelope expansion (8G) has already been achieved at the Bahrain International Air Show last year. The Angle of Attack (AoA) of 26 degrees has also been achieved, with the actual requirement being 24 degrees.

It's the most accurate list I could find. There is no mention of Python-5 or Supersonic Drop Tanks, so I'm assuming these have been de-scoped from FOC.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SSridhar » 11 Sep 2018 20:07

Rakesh wrote:Secondly, I also want to find out the dates for the hot refueling (aircraft on the ground, but engine still running) they recently did on the Tejas as well. I want to add that to the list as well.

Rakesh, that was announced on February 26, 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 11 Sep 2018 22:47

The only things left for FOC are the final version of avionics for all operational modes and care free handling of claw. BVR is done. Refueling is done (unless new modes are added). Gun trials need something from IAf's side, not ADA. This has been pushed out for later.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pushkar.bhat » 11 Sep 2018 23:02

I am always intrigued by Indranil's comments on Gun trials. Have never been able to figure out what is the something needed from IAF?


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