Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4087
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srai » 05 Mar 2018 05:10

srai wrote:
ramana wrote:I want this thread open till FOC.
Tejas MK1A is still evolutionary development.
Tejas MK2 is quite a different thing.
We can close MRCA thread and will in a couple of months.

Still have to track production of Mk.1 until all delivered ... 2020 ;)

Mk1A -> HAL taking lead
Mk2 -> ADA

Both will have support from each other as well as the DRDO aerospace cluster.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22035
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Austin » 05 Mar 2018 11:57

Livefist
‏Verified account @livefist

The LCA Tejas fighter’s biggest foe right now? Production rates. Here’s a breakdown:

Image

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6980
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2018 12:21

^^^ that math doesn't add up: If 123 are on order and 6 have been delivered then 117 are left to be delivered. If production target for 2018 was 8-10. then according to the above math only 16-20 can be delivered in 2018-2019 and 64 between 2020-2023. So 80-84 aircrafts. When will the remaining 33-37 aircrafts be delivered?

I can tell you for sure that:
Targeted production rate for 2018: 8-12
Targeted production rate for 2019: 12-16
Targeted production rate for 2020 onwards: 16-20
And if they stick to the above plan, they can't finish deliveries before 2024.

Vivek K
BRFite
Posts: 1877
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vivek K » 05 Mar 2018 12:29

All good things take time like fine wines, good sex and MKIs. Just like them- the LCA has taken time. The import lobby can play the delay card as the only ace up their musharraf!

They forget that the MKIs were severely delayed and IAF had to fight Kargil without them. If the Pakis had better aircraft at the time, this gap could have cost the nation heavily.

Every Roosi product has been inducted late, so why cry wolf now. The good news is that a world class production line has been set up and the results should be there for all to see.

Actually HAL should take the delay-baiting as a challenge and deliver ahead of schedule. Nothing should be left to chance.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2756
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 05 Mar 2018 22:27

They have only added 4 planes this year. This is pathetic speed. HAL wake up. There are 600 or so LCA to make. At this rate it will take 100 years.

Vivek K
BRFite
Posts: 1877
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vivek K » 05 Mar 2018 22:35

fanne wrote:They have only added 4 planes this year. This is pathetic speed. HAL wake up. There are 600 or so LCA to make. At this rate it will take 100 years.

If what you say is correct - 4 planes this year in 2 months, that equals 24 planes annually. So what are you complaining about?

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2756
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 05 Mar 2018 22:46

4 planes in FY 2017, that lasts until March 31. April 1 2017 to March 31 2018. This is low. This year supposedly 6 or 8 capacity was working. 8 were suppose to come, but only 4 came (26 days still left). This little short fall here and there results in a big gap. HAL was suppose to screwdrivergiri 18 SU30MKI. After reasons that can fill a Phd thesis, they can only screw 12 SU30MKI. The production was suppose to end this year, but 37 MKI are still left. If we are ordering 40 more, it will need another 8 years to complete them, when we need them sooner.
Their promise and delivery leaves lot to be desired.

sanjayc
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 21:40

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sanjayc » 05 Mar 2018 22:51

The solution is to set up an assembly line in the private sector with capacity of 8-10 per year, and an equal number by HAL.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50754
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2018 23:07

Vivek K is right. Now the delay card is being flashed from usual sources.

HAL has set up 5/year line, added 3/year line. Then the new 8/year line is coming up.
So this is 16/year when it comes through.

RM has said they want 24/year. i.e. 8/year line needed.

HAL second line costs 1350 crores.
This is peanuts for RM to fund. PSU banks scam can fund 10 such lines a year.

To achieve this need to add a third line but also build up the supply chain for the parts and engines etc.

Not easy and they comes after that.

US had to merge aerospace companies in the late 1980s to handle the excess capacity.

I think better option is to have surge capacity in the new second line to handle faster build rate as biggest bottle neck will be the aircraft assembly.

sanjayC, No private builder will give mfg warranty for someone else product. Please think like a private sector person.

Look at the M777 JIC outcome. Both are blaming each other when the shell broke up in the barrel.

Maybe rise funds for the third line as a contractor owned but HAL operated production line.

And after that the contractor can absorb the personnel and become a second source for aircraft as they have trained assembly workers?

Vivek K
BRFite
Posts: 1877
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vivek K » 06 Mar 2018 00:00

Funny thing is - there is no complaint about HAL manufactured Jags, MKIs, and so on.

This is the time to back off and keep checkbooks at the ready. This is the consolidation phase of the 16 / year lines. Shortcomings will be observed in this phase. Once 6 months go as planned, work on the the next line should start. HAL must establish all procedures to deliver quality aircraft. That takes some time - it took time with the Mig-29s and their teething troubles and it will take time with the Tejas. In the interim, I encourage all of us that are experiencing constipation to please use the whine threads.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6973
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 06 Mar 2018 13:20

Mean-e-while, some eye candy:)

Image

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3598
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 06 Mar 2018 18:15

Vivek K wrote:Funny thing is - there is no complaint about HAL manufactured Jags, MKIs, and so on.

This is the time to back off and keep checkbooks at the ready. This is the consolidation phase of the 16 / year lines. Shortcomings will be observed in this phase. Once 6 months go as planned, work on the the next line should start. HAL must establish all procedures to deliver quality aircraft. That takes some time - it took time with the Mig-29s and their teething troubles and it will take time with the Tejas. In the interim, I encourage all of us that are experiencing constipation to please use the whine threads.


+1. IIRC, HAL even delivered Hawks ahead of schedule. And HAL is well on the path to achieve 25/yr production rate ever since MP cut the Gordian knot in 2015. Everything else is pure BS. Nothing new is done. They have targeted 80% out-sourcing and they are at 70% currently. Soon the tier-1 suppliers will get in the groove and start supplying sub-assemblies at full capacity.

And consider it a Moderation warning - any unsubstantiated and repetitive whining on this account will attract deletion/warning. Post only if you think you have got new substance to add to the discussion.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gagan » 06 Mar 2018 20:17

Saars, we need a 40-50/yr production rate onlee.
This plane has to be aggressively marketed and sold to nations all around asia, africa and south america.
Let us not beat around the bush and give it to a private player, who is an international player.
Tell the Tatas / Mota Bhai / L&T etc etc to set up a greenfield plant and make 200 planes, export it out of there.
HAL can cater to the IAF's needs for now

Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Trikaal » 06 Mar 2018 20:32

Private sector won't touch Tejas with a long pole unless they are offered confirmed orders. Even Tier-1 suppliers want confirm minimum orders. So unless the govt itself participates and assures private companies, a third private line won't materialize.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gagan » 06 Mar 2018 21:02

That is the basis on which any manufacturer operates, it applies to HAL too. HAL won't build a plane unless it has confirmed orders.
The Tatas for example are building major parts for several aircraft worldwide and have confirmed orders. I don't know if HAL is still building door panels and doors for A320s, but they don't seem to have any other foreign orders.

GoI has to decide if they are going to fully open the taps on production or trickle feed.
If there is real intent to shore up numbers and export, while ensuring quality manufacturing and post sales support, then PVT industry has to play a big part.
Leaving it to a PSU for product support will not be good idea

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1571
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 06 Mar 2018 21:17

It is up to MoD to decide what rate they want and they are ready to pay for it.

If MoD funds for 50/yr, why will HAL say no? If the line is idle, well that is MoD's problem.

Decision is solely for MoD to make.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63583
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Mar 2018 21:21

50/yr is impossible to absorb domestically at current fund levels for new pilots, ground crew, weapons, bases

Even 25 / yr is challenging for a new type unless we ramp up above back end pipelines

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1571
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 06 Mar 2018 22:12

If MoD funds it, IAF will gladly ramp up. Ofcourse there are drawback of going the Chini way, however I am sure IAF will up to the task.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50754
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Mar 2018 22:15

Guys stop eating khyali pullao.

The production rate is another red herring to justify imports.
And its not from IAF but ill meaning DDM.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2300
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 06 Mar 2018 22:22

With a Rs 50K corer order on hand, HAL should move with purpose and confidence of a winner. Amount needed to set-up additional manufacturing line is tiny, Rs 2K to $3K corer, while business opportunity is huge at Rs 2 to 3 lakh corers. Babus and govt employed managers can't think or act like a private sector CEOs like Mukesh Ambani (invest more than Rs 1.2 lakh corer before a single Rs in sale) or Baba Kalyani with artillery guns.

Everyone knows that PSUs are entangled in the vicious web of govt regulations that were put in place to stop or facilitate more graft depending on who is in the power. Although HAL takes time but it does deliver - ALH (32/year at >65% serviceability of fleet), Hawks and MKI is also pretty much on schedule with 236 delivered by the beginning of this calendar year. Add 18 for this year and you have 252-254 aircrafts delivered by the target date 0f 2017.

HAL chairman Raju had mentioned in one of his interviews that he was able to convince the HAL Board to allow him to order long lead-time items for Mk1A before official IAF order is placed, to reduce the time needed for initial delivery. Unfortunately I am predicting that 2020 CAG report would mention how Board violated half a dozen procedures and regulations to place raw material/parts orders before receiving an IAF order. Unfortunately it'll also mention (most likely) that the part came and sat in the warehouse for years because the order didn't come or other facilities were not available or some other $hit, defeating the purpose and causing xyz in loss.

It is also clear to anyone looking seriously, that private sector is years or even decades away from doing work as significant in defense sector as HAL or BEL are doing now. So until that happens things would go in circles, with moderate improvements here or there. Any scam like what happened at PNB could cause political masters their power so they are not going to truly empower boards and CEOs anytime soon.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50754
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Mar 2018 22:54

Who are members of HAL board?
How many from MoD?

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2300
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 07 Mar 2018 23:25

The executive directors are mostly career HAL officials, part time and independent are retd govt/PSU managers. No one from outside of their comfort zone is allowed in the boardroom it seems. They love getting cooked in their own juices. They must seek private sector CEOs from non competing sectors and retd armed forces officers who are your primary customers. Kiran Majumdar or Chandra Kochchar or Shiv Nadir comes to mind. Diversity in experience and expertise is the soule of a good board.

HAL leadership

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50754
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2018 00:27

Yes I saw that. Mostly operations directors. and they have part time associate directors.

All are govt appointees. I don't think HAL can seek anyone special skills on their own.

I would like a naval and army person also on the advisory board. Currently only IAF person is there.
I like Mrs. Khanna's qualifications.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2756
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 08 Mar 2018 00:35

Prasad wrote:Mean-e-while, some eye candy:)

Image


the planes are really small. Initially I thought it was only 1 plane, then 2, then three then 4. Took few minutes to realize it. Right Camo and it will be hard to spot with naked eye.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50754
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2018 00:43

Me too!

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1347
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 08 Mar 2018 01:22

fanne wrote:
Prasad wrote:Mean-e-while, some eye candy:)

Image


the planes are really small. Initially I thought it was only 1 plane, then 2, then three then 4. Took few minutes to realize it. Right Camo and it will be hard to spot with naked eye.


Bingo I went through the same and I hope the same happens to my dearest friends across Khem Karan !

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2341
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 08 Mar 2018 02:44


Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2300
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 08 Mar 2018 06:11

I can only count 3, 4th taking picture?

pravula
BRFite
Posts: 221
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 05:01

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pravula » 08 Mar 2018 06:19

Katare wrote:I can only count 3, 4th taking picture?

Nope. 4 in the pic. Two on the buildings, one pealing away and one over greenery.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2300
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 08 Mar 2018 06:49

Amazing!

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23128
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SSridhar » 08 Mar 2018 06:59

I was also deceived into counting just 2 initially.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2756
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 08 Mar 2018 07:15

I hope not photo shopped. Does not look like though. The shadow etc. are all making it genuine.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1446
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Mar 2018 07:17

I didnt note there are 4 until i read the posts. As they say "you never hear the shot that takes you down". Why just khemkaran, why not sargodha,


Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2300
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 08 Mar 2018 08:29

It does not get anymore authentic than this....

HAL Production of Su30MKI, LCA, ALH, Hawk and Do-228

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1347
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 08 Mar 2018 08:36

ArjunPandit wrote:I didnt note there are 4 until i read the posts. As they say "you never hear the shot that takes you down". Why just khemkaran, why not sargodha,


I don't understand

Everything across west Khemkaran is Pakistan all the way upto Khyber Pass and this includes Sargodha, Lahore.
Khemkaran is on the line ... its the last Indian town on that axis.
My village is right next to it

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1446
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Mar 2018 09:08

^^oh ok, i thought you meant it is to attack the guys across the fence at khemkaran, and i meant to say that this baby will find its way to sargodha ..

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4087
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srai » 08 Mar 2018 10:51

Katare wrote:It does not get anymore authentic than this....

HAL Production of Su30MKI, LCA, ALH, Hawk and Do-228

That link is not correct. Can you post the article?

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6973
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 08 Mar 2018 11:04

fanne wrote:I hope not photo shopped. Does not look like though. The shadow etc. are all making it genuine.

the planes are really small. Initially I thought it was only 1 plane, then 2, then three then 4. Took few minutes to realize it. Right Camo and it will be hard to spot with naked eye.

Not shopped. From Tejas FB page. This is a 5-ship formation and shot from the 5th obviously. One has to remember that the Tejas is mariginally smaller than the Mig-21. At AI, it was parked before the MKI. The difference, despite the perspective, couldn't be starker.

Might be really tough to spot with a mountain camo up in the himalayan canyons :)


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Balaji, Dennis, Google [Bot], Mihir, Parikshit, VickyAvinash and 44 guests