Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 03 Dec 2018 07:32

But dont succumb to Mk1a specs. Think Mk2/ of course OT here. :wink:


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Dec 2018 15:13

Remember in 2010 just before Akash orders how similair offers came for the Patriot, these offers come when they detect we have over come most hurdles.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Will » 03 Dec 2018 17:17

Lol LM trying to push the F-16 by hook or by crook. Why don’t they transfer the F-16 line to India and export those 400 aircraft from here with no obligation for India to buy them. They can get cheap manpower in India. They should stop peddling antiques and offer the F-35 to India. :twisted:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby A Deshmukh » 03 Dec 2018 18:01

Will wrote:Lol LM trying to push the F-16 by hook or by crook. Why don’t they transfer the F-16 line to India and export those 400 aircraft from here with no obligation for India to buy them. :twisted:

who is the buyer?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby John » 03 Dec 2018 18:10

Aditya_V wrote:Remember in 2010 just before Akash orders how similair offers came for the Patriot, these offers come when they detect we have over come most hurdles.

I believe the offer was a counter to S-400 not a counter to Akash.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Dec 2018 19:08

A Deshmukh wrote:
Will wrote:Lol LM trying to push the F-16 by hook or by crook. Why don’t they transfer the F-16 line to India and export those 400 aircraft from here with no obligation for India to buy them. :twisted:

who is the buyer?

Will we be selling to pakis?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 03 Dec 2018 20:24



Reminds me of the parable of the monkey volunteering to help the cats fighting over how to divide a chapati.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 03 Dec 2018 21:11


What a lifafa article this is!

There is not a single quote - NOT ONE - from Vivek Lall or any other LM executive about them helping India on the Tejas. The title of the article has been copied verbatim in the first paragraph and from that point it is all about the attributes of the F-Solah :lol:

Secondly, what help can LM provide at this fag end? The aircraft is now near FOC. What are they going to do really?

HAL has already delivered six aircraft this year (with probably two more by the end of the year). By 2019, it will be 8+ aircraft per year and in 2020, it will go upto 16 per year.

I ask again...what is LM planning to do? Fund another line, if F-Solah order comes? What bakwaas!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 03 Dec 2018 23:59




Didn't they help with the LCA flight control laws and confiscate all the scientists notebooks etc!!!!

And even used the LCA flight control laws on the F16 demonstrator as IPR theft.

Once bitten twice shy.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 04 Dec 2018 00:13

ArjunPandit wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote:who is the buyer?

Will we be selling to pakis?

At the end of the day it is all about F-16 parts, job creation, Make in India and get the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy :lol:

Sell to the Pakis I say and they will dutifully transfer Block 70 tech (which includes F-35 tech) to the PRC.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 04 Dec 2018 01:24



Let LM do some polishing of the airframe, cleaning of the cockpit, housekeeping of Tejas hangars, fueling the aircraft, serving chai (hey its an honorable profession) to Tejas crew and Ram Ram Sir to the pilots. :rotfl: There is ton of stuff they can do.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 04 Dec 2018 01:56

When LCA was about to have it's first flight in 2001, a letter was sent to George Fernades, the then DM.

Warning him that LCA is not safe to fly and India should not continue with the project.

It came from the CEO of LM...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pushkar.bhat » 04 Dec 2018 13:06

LCA is a chota and yet upgradeable ef solha. This one takes off it will dry up orders for LM. They are smart and recognize this.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 05 Dec 2018 01:20

We would be fooling ourselves if we think LM considers ADA/HAL as a competitor. We are far behind in every aspect of the game. It is doing everything it can to sell the last few F-16s.

But, we should know what we need in the long term. We are not at war now. It is a time to prepare should a war breaks out.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 05 Dec 2018 01:22

^ +108!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 06:57

Indranil wrote:We would be fooling ourselves if we think LM considers ADA/HAL as a competitor. We are far behind in every aspect of the game. It is doing everything it can to sell the last few F-16s.

But, we should know what we need in the long term. We are not at war now. It is a time to prepare should a war breaks out.


Not a competitor today, but tomorrow?..

That apart, as long as khnan continues it's blw hot blow cold policies depending on the whims of who holds the reins, best we remain cautious.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Dec 2018 10:41

One thing to note is NATO countries don't like competitors outside NATO, We used to have Swedes on BRF on how Gripen was functional yet the Indians are incapable of developing the LCA. Its about tomorrow's market.

We have even the odd post on BRF about F-35 License production in India, but right now Khan does not allow it for even its closet allies be it Japan, UK, Israel etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 11:29

Which is why I firmly support SAAB sueing the incapable Indian MOD.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Dec 2018 12:14

Rakesh wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Will we be selling to pakis?

At the end of the day it is all about F-16 parts, job creation, Make in India and get the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy :lol:

Sell to the Pakis I say and they will dutifully transfer Block 70 tech (which includes F-35 tech) to the PRC.

With due regards sir, don't you think that week eat up into lca resources? Knowing you wish well to LCA it is ask the more surprising. That said I'm all for a demo flight to lm ceo

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 20:17

Karan M wrote:A salute to AM Nambiar!

https://salute.co.in/military-modernisa ... air-force/

June-July 2018
MILITARY MODERNISATION: INDIAN AIR FORCE
August 20, 2018 by Air Marshal R. Nambiar

Image


It must be stated that the LCA Mark 1 and Mark 1A are very good aircraft. We recently conducted a major exercise called Gagan Shakti, and the LCA performed remarkably well. The best range scores and the best weapon delivery emerged from the nine LCAs we had fielded, which really worked wonders. This gives me the confidence to state that the LCA will see us through the next 20 years, if not more, in technological capability terms.

The first squadron of the LCA, 45 Squadron,.....are being put through the full spectrum of air operations as envisaged by the IAF.

[size=150]Our aircraft of the future, as we perceive it as of today, is the LCA Mark II. This aircraft, we believe, will replace the MiG 29 in the next ten years, the Jaguar in the next 15 years and the Mirage 2000 in the next 20 years. All combined, this adds up to a total of twelve squadrons.

The requirements of the IAF for the LCA Mark II are centred on two crucial points.......
Our bottomline is to have indigenously built fighters which will form the bulk of the IAF inventory by 2032. Mark II of the LCA will be as many as 12 squadrons. That is how we envisage the IAF to be heading.
....................................


More at the link.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 05 Dec 2018 21:17

Karan, that is a fantastic find. Thank you Saar. Beautiful article.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 05 Dec 2018 21:19

ArjunPandit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:At the end of the day it is all about F-16 parts, job creation, Make in India and get the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy :lol:

Sell to the Pakis I say and they will dutifully transfer Block 70 tech (which includes F-35 tech) to the PRC.

With due regards sir, don't you think that week eat up into lca resources? Knowing you wish well to LCA it is ask the more surprising. That said I'm all for a demo flight to lm ceo

Saar, I was being sarcastic in the above. Come on Arjun! :) I was hitting out at the pro F-Solah crowd on BRF who claimed the wonderful advantages that screwdrivergiri of the F-16 would bring to India.

If the article is true and LM did actually make such a proposal, then they are full of HOT AIR!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 05 Dec 2018 21:53

I did not know that Nambiar sahab had spoken about the range scores. So, there you have it from the horses mouth.

1. Tejas has the best A2G scores
2. Its availability was the highest too. At times there more planes ready than pilots.
3. I will wait for officials to speak on A2A as well. Tejas did really well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 22:12

Just go ahead and state the A2A details, just mentioning it out did other platforms or generic info on A2A/BVR etc capability, is not giving any classified details IMO.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Dec 2018 23:33

^^yes, coming from you it was all the more surprising. Guys above missed out one job for LM, filling air in the tyres and checking punctures, or are they tubeless??

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 05 Dec 2018 23:46

arjun I know you want to add humor but don't go overboard.
Thanks, ramana

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby titash » 06 Dec 2018 00:39

Karan M wrote:
Karan M wrote:A salute to AM Nambiar!

https://salute.co.in/military-modernisa ... air-force/

June-July 2018
MILITARY MODERNISATION: INDIAN AIR FORCE
August 20, 2018 by Air Marshal R. Nambiar

It must be stated that the LCA Mark 1 and Mark 1A are very good aircraft. We recently conducted a major exercise called Gagan Shakti, and the LCA performed remarkably well. The best range scores and the best weapon delivery emerged from the nine LCAs we had fielded, which really worked wonders. This gives me the confidence to state that the LCA will see us through the next 20 years, if not more, in technological capability terms.

The first squadron of the LCA, 45 Squadron,.....are being put through the full spectrum of air operations as envisaged by the IAF.

[size=150]Our aircraft of the future, as we perceive it as of today, is the LCA Mark II. This aircraft, we believe, will replace the MiG 29 in the next ten years, the Jaguar in the next 15 years and the Mirage 2000 in the next 20 years. All combined, this adds up to a total of twelve squadrons.

The requirements of the IAF for the LCA Mark II are centred on two crucial points.......
Our bottomline is to have indigenously built fighters which will form the bulk of the IAF inventory by 2032. Mark II of the LCA will be as many as 12 squadrons. That is how we envisage the IAF to be heading.
....................................


More at the link.


KaranM....thank you. This article is the find of the year for me. All factual information from the horse's mouth. No BS from R.Pandit, M.Pubby, and gang.

- Tejas MK2...12 squadrons (so 200+ fighters)

- MiG29 to go first, then Jaguar, then Mirage 2000...so the higher CAPEX + higher reliability + higher availability + lower maintenance western fighter is actually the preferred IAF type, over the cheaper + lower availability + higher maintenance russian types. Speaks volumes about why the Tejas was designed with the higher reliability GE F404 engine (as opposed to the higher performance types). Entirely philosophical.

- Lots of electronics & software enabled capabilities that act as force multipliers...cellular networks, controlling Leh fighters from Delhi, software defined radios, networking & functionality in the absence of GPS etc.

- lots of home grown munitions with *Rudra* names being prominent 8)

All in all, there's many reasons why the Chinese and Pakis are hesitant to misadventure. Every Indian should read this article and feel comforted.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2018 01:15

Well said Titash. Based on AM R Nambiar's numbers, one can expect the IAF to look like this in the mid 2030s.

Tejas Mk1: Two Squadrons
Tejas Mk1A: Four Squadrons
Tejas Mk2: Twelve Squadrons (200+ aircarft)
Su-30MKI: Fifteen Squadrons (272 aircraft)
Rafale + MMRCA: Eight Squadrons (36 + 110 aircraft)

The above comes to 41 squadrons.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 06 Dec 2018 01:45

OT, the Air Marshal mentions that AWACS India is yet to receive CCS approval. This is bit strange as I thought funding was approved in 2015 and LRDE has already build the AESA antenna as disclosed by DRDO ex-chief.

May be he was referring to the two Phalcon, which is in the pipeline.

Anyways OT.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2018 02:15

Thanks guys. AM Nambiar is a virtuoso.. note the level of detail he provides across all programs.

The AWACS India program currently has funding from within DRDO and no, its antenna has not been built yet, it's tech., is under basic development. Its FSED awaits full funding from GOI.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 06 Dec 2018 02:26

Karan M wrote:Thanks guys. AM Nambiar is a virtuoso.. note the level of detail he provides across all programs.

The AWACS India program currently has funding from within DRDO and no, its antenna has not been built yet, it's tech., is under basic development. Its FSED awaits full funding from GOI.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/02/indian-air-force-wants-home-grown-awacs-to-double-as-tanker.html

“Because of the additional tanker functionality requirement, there have been some delays, but we’ve made up for it on our side by completing developing of the radome antenna that will be the centrepiece of the AWACS,” Christopher reveals. Built at the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) in Bengaluru, the 12.5 tonne antenna is near ready for integration on an A330 once modifications on the first aircraft are complete.


Christopher adds, “In Bengaluru we’ve finished the radome...


Regarding funding, from the article above:
In 2015, the Indian government officially approved the program and sanctioned finances to the tune of over $800 million for costs that would include modifications and the first two A330 aircraft.


Hopefully we will have information in AI'19.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sivab » 06 Dec 2018 02:47

Rakesh wrote:Well said Titash. Based on AM R Nambiar's numbers, one can expect the IAF to look like this in the mid 2030s.

Tejas Mk1: Two Squadrons
Tejas Mk1A: Four Squadrons
Tejas Mk2: Twelve Squadrons (200+ aircarft)
Su-30MKI: Fifteen Squadrons (272 aircraft)
Rafale + MMRCA: Eight Squadrons (36 + 110 aircraft)

The above comes to 41 squadrons.


Sorry to rain on your parade. Nambiar's article is old. Its total of 12 squadrons per IAF Chief: Mk1=2 (40), Mk1a=4 (83), Mk2=6 (108 aircraft).
See his press conf on Oct 3, 2018 air force day @28min mark


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2018 04:22

sivab wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade. Nambiar's article is old. Its total of 12 squadrons per IAF Chief: Mk1=2 (40), Mk1a=4 (83), Mk2=6 (108 aircraft).
See his press conf on Oct 3, 2018 air force day @28min mark

No apologies needed Siva.

The CAS is not wholly involved in the force planning of the IAF. His job is primarily to act as the conduit between the Govt of the day and the service he represents. Determining future force structure falls to the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Planning), of which the current office holder is Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar. Any numbers that the CAS states, are provided to him by the Planning staff of the Indian Air Force. The CAS definitely has an input in it, but by and large the Planning staff are the ones who provide the force structure of the future. I wish Vidur-ji was here. He could explain in much more lucid detail.

So the next question to be asked, is how does the discrepancy in numbers (201 vs 108) arise between what Air Marshal Nambiar, DCAS said in July of this year (which was a repeat of what Defence Minister Sitharaman said in February of this year) with what Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa, CAS said in Oct of this year? I am spit-balling here, but I am assuming that the 108 is probably just the first block/set of Mk2s. There are not going to stop at just 108 Mk2s. If they only produce 108 Mk2s, they are back again in the same hole, despite 36 Rafales + 110 MMRCAs. See below...

Tejas Mk1: Two Squadrons
Tejas Mk1A: Four Squadrons
Tejas Mk2: Six Squadrons (108 aircraft)
Su-30MKI: Fifteen Squadrons (272 aircraft)
Rafale + MMRCA: Eight Squadrons (36 + 110 aircraft)

The above comes to 35 squadrons. At that stage, they cannot launch another combat aircraft contest and expect the bird to arrive anytime soon. Please remember, the current comedy show is going on for nearly 18 years and shows no signs of near completion. After all is said and done, it will be 25 years (quarter of a century!) to acquire (but not induct) 146 MMRCAs. Their best bet lies in just continuing with the production of the Mk2 and build up the numbers in that manner.

Also, I do not even think there will be 15 squadrons of Su-30MKIs in the IAF. I am using a standard number of 18 birds per squadron, but I think Rambhas are more like 20+ aircraft per squadron. I believe the current Rambha strength stands at 9 - 10 squadrons, with just 2 - 3 squadrons left for assembly in HAL. The IAF will achieve close to 42 with the current acquisition plan, but as I have always held...numbers alone do not give the whole picture. Capability Does Matter.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2018 04:46

The 200+ Tejas MkII comes from having to replace the three lines of aircraft: Mig 29, Jaguar and M2K in that order.
108 won't get IAF there.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2018 05:45

Nam, I think the article is mixing up radome and the actual AAU. I'd love to be mistaken though.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2018 05:47

Sivab, how can six Mk2 squadrons replace 3 MiG-29, 2.5 Mirage, and some 5 Jaguar squadrons? That's 10.5 squadrons.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sivab » 06 Dec 2018 06:14

Karan M wrote:Sivab, how can six Mk2 squadrons replace 3 MiG-29, 2.5 Mirage, and some 5 Jaguar squadrons? That's 10.5 squadrons.


I was surprised when I first heard CAS say that. Seems they are hoping for another MMRCA after current one.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2018 06:23

Or keeping some space for a 5G platform or to order a wevo d tranche of Mk2s..Hmm.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2018 06:50

sivab wrote:
Karan M wrote:Sivab, how can six Mk2 squadrons replace 3 MiG-29, 2.5 Mirage, and some 5 Jaguar squadrons? That's 10.5 squadrons.


I was surprised when I first heard CAS say that. Seems they are hoping for another MMRCA after current one.

They are already exhausted from the current MMRCA saga which has been going on for 18 years! No hope left for a new contest. Their hope lies is reaching the successful conclusion of the current contest.


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