Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 04 Jan 2019 20:53

afaik Eurofighter may still not be qualified to carry some munitions that Tornados can. the JSF is another example of a long series of tranches and capability increments all of which widen its use cases. new weapons, sensors and SW updates will keep it going.

no different from a smartwatch or a phone that gets years of updates after the purchase.

the Tejas as it stands today can fight and shoot down enemies in some use cases.we should not call it FOC, because goal posts are always moving and enemy also is adapting...there is nothing FINAL in technology anymore, a weapon to end all weapons, a product will get updates until the last few years of its life. while HW updates will be few and phased in during MLU. the SW updates may get faster from the old norms of once every 1-2 years....who knows using devops cloud centric jenkins build model, they could "push code into production" from a central server after regression tests once in 2 weeks using a unmanned remote control Tejas to touch the test points in flight and on ground rigs and then every squadron just gets automated downloads that burn the firmware and 'reboot' the plane ... well no need for reboot either - using containers and VMs the new sw can come up in another context and when its ready, smoothly take over the HW :D

in future "trucks" that drop off dozens of netcentric munitions and decoys at desired points will just pull these updates that will program the weapons on the fly, reprogram them many times including in flight if needed with JIT EW libs.

the network is the brain now and simple cogs in the machine are the delivery boys. the days of a Mig25R mission needing hours to prepare, 1 hour to shoot pics and another few hours to process imagery before dissemination into the field are WAY SLOW now. airborne recon platforms must be up 24x7 feeding data via satcom antennas into the network for near real time processing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2019 00:03

Folks, stop being pessimistic and do not look at the glass half empty. All combat aircraft go through this. Over the life span of a fighter jet, there are numerous hardware and software upgrades performed to keep her up to date. Here are some examples;

- The first batch of Mirage 2000s delivered in 1985 came with an under powered engine i.e. the M53-5. Later on, the M53-P2 came along and the aircraft were all upgraded to that uprated engine. And there was no Mk2 variant in 1985 either. That came only much later. All our Mirage 2000s arrived as the Mirage 2000H (the Indian version of the French Mirage 2000C). Now all Mirage 2000s are being upgraded to the M2K-5 Mk2 standard, which gives her BVR capability, a vastly improved radar and weaponry that could not be carried before.

- MiG-29s which came in 1985 were of the SE variant (the export type of the MiG-29S). A bare-bones dogfighter, but deadly. No air-to-ground capability though in this variant. The Klimov RD-33 engine is amazing, but had a notoriously short life. A number of small upgrades were done over the years at 11 Base Repair Depot, Ojhar AFS in Nashik. Read here ---> http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Today ... 11BRD.html and now the entire fleet is undergoing the UPG upgrade which will make her truly multi-role.

- The first batch of Su-30s that joined the IAF in 1997 was the K variant. Then on 27 Sept 2002 came the raising of the IAF's first Su-30MKI squadron ---> No 20 Lightnings. But that Su-30MKI is of 2002 vintage. There have been a number of software and hardware upgrades over the years. Those 2002 vintage Rambhas suffered from the MFDs suddenly going black in mid flight. Serious issue! Now Samtel of India makes the MFDs for the Su-30MKI, which was not the case in 2002. And today HAL makes the entire aircraft from the raw material stage, including the engine. Now negotiations have reached its penultimate end with the Super Sukhoi upgrade which will likely see even an engine change.

- The Jaguar is a classic example of improved variants. The first batch of Jaguars that came in 1979 were on loan from the Royal Air Force. They came with the Adour Mk 804E engine. Under powered engine and only till the Adour Mk 811 engine came along did the Jaguar get some serious capability. But over the years, various in house upgrades and weaponry made even this engine under powered and now the IAF is upgrading them (FINALLY!!!!) with the Honeywell F125 turbofan. Then there is the Darin I, Darin II and now Darin III software and hardware upgrades.

- MiG-21s came in a number of variants, with each variant improving upon the latter. The IAF flew the MiG-21F, then the MiG-21FL (Type 77), then the MiG-21M (Type 88), then the MiG-21MF (Type 96), then the MiG-21bis (Type 75) and finally the MiG-21Bison. Each of these variants had numerous hardware and software upgrades over the years. Then there were various MiG-21U/UM/US (Type 66/68/69) trainers that the IAF acquired as well.

- MiG-27s came in multiple variants as well. First was the MiG-27M, then came the license produced MiG-27ML and then came the MiG-27UPG. Same story as above - various hardware and software upgrades over the years.

- The Rafale initially came in as the LF1, then F1, then F2, then F3, then F3O-4T, then F3R (the Indian bird is an customized version of F3R) and F4 is planned for service entry in 2025. And even though Indian Rafale deliveries begin in Sept 2019, the first F3R in IAF service will only be in May 2022. Almost three and a half years later! Nobody complains because it is phoren! :)

The point to note is this ----> and Singha said it accurately, "There is nothing FINAL in technology anymore, a weapon to end all weapons, a product will get updates until the last few years of its life."

And thus Tejas will be no different. She will have various hardware and software upgrades over the course of her life. It is the nature of the game. The Tejas will always be chasing after technology, just like any other combat platform. Final Operational Clearance (FOC) and Enhanced Operational Clearance (EOC) goal posts will never end. And because it is our aircraft it will give the appearance of being *PAINFULLY* slow (and in some instances it will actually be), but ADA and HAL cannot take chances. Everything has to be triple and quadruple checked and ensure that it meets the IAF's exacting standards. Anything short of this and the Export Vultures and Desh Drohis will shout ----> "I told you so! You bloody Indians are no good."

Have faith. 04 January 2019 is a red letter day for the country. If Tejas got F0C-1 today, celebrate the moment with your family and go buy some mithai. FOC and EOC goal posts will always exist and will be the next milestone to achieve. Never rest on your laurels. With everything in life, you either move forward or move backwards. Nobody and nothing stays still and technology is a classic example of that.

I am happy. Great milestone achieved for the Tejas Team! Good job guys! Vande Mataram, Bharat Mata Ki Jai and Jai Hind!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 05 Jan 2019 01:02

For all the posters doing rona & dhona (R & Dh (tm))., please read this article in full.

https://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm

Last month, Indian defence authorities quietly announced that India's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft, originally to have become operational in 1995, will not achieve that status before 2015. The euphoria over the first flight of the prototype a few days later, however, helped to push that stark news off the front pages.

The LCA programme was initiated in 1983 by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, with three widely publicised assertions. One, that it would be an indigenous project catapulting India into the rarefied ranks of global aviation powers. Two, the aircraft would enter frontline squadron service by 1995. And three, the project would only cost Rs 700 crores (Rs 7 billion).

What actually happened between 1983 and 2000? First, let us take the promise of indigenous development. In 1986 an agreement was quietly signed with the United States that permitted DRDO to work with four US Air force laboratories. The to-be-indigenously-developed engine for the LCA -- Kaveri -- was forgotten and the US made General Electric F-404 engine was substituted. Radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti, carbon-fibre composite panels for wings from Alenia and fly-by-wire controls from Lockheed Martin. Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France. As for armaments -- missiles, guns, rockets and bombs -- every last item was to be imported.

As for operational induction, anyone who knew anything about fighter aircraft development or the capabilities of the DRDO would have known that the envisaged 12-year time frame (1983-1995) was /pure make-believe.

Yet, as late as 1990, DRDO asserted that the 1995 target would be met. It was only when 1995 drew closer that the talk shifted from operational induction to test flights. In 1998, the defence minister stated that the first test flight would take place in 1999. The first flight finally took place a few days ago, 17 years after the project started.

As for the project cost, the original budget was Rs 700 crores. It was later revised to Rs 3,000 crores (Rs 30 billion). It would easily go past Rs 10,000 crores (Rs 100 billion) before the aircraft is inducted into operational service. And that is with DRDO incurring only about a quarter of the overall development costs. Not included are the cost of the huge amounts of foreign equipment being fitted; engine, radar, electronic warfare and communication equipment, high-stress body panels, cockpit displays and the entire range of armament.

Initially it was stated that the per copy price of an LCA would be Rs 10 crores (Rs 100 million). It would be a miracle if the LCA can ever be produced at less than Rs 150 crores (Rs 1.5 billion) a copy. And if the LCA is eventually inducted in 2015, what will the Indian Air Force get? It will get an aircraft at best comparable to first generation F-16s.

One of the DRDO's favourite phrases is 'state of the art,' and according to them everything of the LCA is state of the art. In the fighter aircraft field, to be state of the art, at least from 1990, an aircraft must be designed for 'stealth', that is having virtually no radar or thermal signature. Not even DRDO has so far claimed that the LCA is a stealth aircraft, or that it is capable of being made into one. Forget stealth, the LCA is incapable of any significant upgrading at all during its lifetime. It is a very small, single-engined aircraft tightly packed with equipment. It cannot be fitted with a bigger engine or expanded avionics.

What prompted the DRDO to conceive the LCA when Israel, technologically far more advanced than India, had abandoned its Lavi fighter project after spending more than $ 2 billion on it? Aircraft development costs had mounted so much by then that far richer-countries compared to India such as Britain, France and Germany had realised that unless they formed multinational consortia it would not be possible for them to develop sophisticated, modern aircraft. That is why beginning the late 1970s we have had Eurofighters and Eurocopters, where three or four countries share costs and buying commitments.

It can be said with certainty that the LCA will never become a frontline fighter with the Indian Air Force. The Mirage 2000s and the Mig-29s that the air force has been flying from the 1980s have superior capabilities to any LCA that might be inducted in 2015, 2020 or 2025. So the most prudent thing for the government would be to immediately terminate the LCA project. National and individual egos have been satisfied after the first flight.

The Rs 3,000 crores or so that have spent so far could be put down as the price of a valuable learning experience. We would have undoubtedly gained valuable knowledge in many areas of aircraft design and engineering. But of much greater value, we would have gained the understanding that defence R&D is not a make-believe game to be played by exploiting the fascination for techno-nationalism.

The LCA ranks alongside DRDO's other monumental failures such as the Arjun tank, the Trishul and the Akash missiles, and the Kaveri engine. The time and cost overruns on these projects have been enormous. The story of the Arjun is well known.

With the induction of the T-90, there is no way the Arjun is going to spearhead India's armoured divisions. In fact there are many who believe that the T-72 inducted two decades ago is a better tank than the Arjun. The reality of Arjun seems to be finally sinking in, and it would appear that it might end up not as a battle tank, but as a platform for a 155mm howitzer.

The short-range, surface-to-air-missile Trishul was to be fitted on three Indian Navy frigates in 1992. A decade later, the missile is still carrying out "successful" tests, long after the frigates have been completed. The same story goes for the medium-range, surface-to-air missile Akash and the anti-tank missile Nag.

During the last 20 years, DRDO has fine-tuned the art of selling projects. To start with, don't be timid and aim low. In true Parkinsonian style, the more ambitious the project, greater the chance of it being sanctioned. When the presentation is made to the minister, be generous with phrases such as "state-of-the art". Also mention that we will be the third country in the world to produce the equipment. (It is always the "third" as even the minister knows that the USA and Russia already produce the same).

If a service chief demurs, make snide remarks about how the services want to import everything. And keep the estimated cost of the project absurdly low. Once the project is sanctioned, feed the media with a steady stream of unverifiable tidbits. Bring out a mock-up model and show it round at the Republic Day parade and defence exhibitions.

In recent times DRDO and India's defence services have evolved a modus vivendi. No longer does DRDO oppose imports, provided they are allowed to continue with their projects. Thus, import Su-30s and develop the LCA. Import T-90 tanks and produce Arjun. Import Israeli UAV and continue with a similar indigenous project. The only victim in this you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours game is the Indian taxpayer, who unfortunately does not seem to care.

ALSO READ:
Will the LCA fly? <---- Please read this as well
Admiral J G Nadkarni (retd)


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 05 Jan 2019 01:03

Congratulations to DRDO/ADA/HAL/IAF on getting an indigenous new frontline fighter.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jan 2019 01:28

Thanks for making up my day, should we send a 324 tshirt to the retd admiral?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2019 01:41

rousing speech by Admiral of the brf home fleet Koshy sir! worthy of halsey or yamamoto leading their fleets into battle.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 05 Jan 2019 07:25

ArjunPandit wrote:Thanks for making up my day, should we send a 324 tshirt to the retd admiral?

:rotfl:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 05 Jan 2019 11:46

ArjunPandit wrote:Thanks for making up my day, should we send a 324 tshirt to the retd admiral?


Well the Retired Admiral is truly retired now. I did not mean to disparage him, rather the good admiral was a product of his times. His generation was enthralled to a certain degree to brishits and hence that generation fell into the trap of calling all indigenous efforts like LCA as "Khadi gramudyog".

The fact that the some of last and this generation made the LCA fly (lot of credit actually goes to Dr. APJ Kalam) should come as a confidence booster in our own capability. Yes we can do it.

Yes, LCA is truly 4G+ FBW multi-role fighter. Its sister NLCA is even more formidable. Not on what it can do, but on what it can teach us.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby disha » 05 Jan 2019 11:52

https://www.rediff.com/news/1998/aug/19kalam.htm

Abdul Kalam urges LCA scientists not to get disheartened

A P J Abdul Kalam, scientific advisor to the defence minister, today advised aeronautical scientists not to be frightened by the sanctions imposed by the United States and instead, strive hard to meet the deadline for inducting the multi-role Light Combat Aircraft into the air force.

Speaking after inaugurating a two day seminar on advances in aeronautics research, design and development, organised by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in Bangalore, he said a national team was working to meet the challenges posed by the sanctions which were imposed following the Pokhran nuclear blasts.

Recalling that Indian scientists involved in the testing of the indigenously developed flight control systems in the United States were sent back, Dr Kalam said, "We are very close (in the development phase of LCA)" with two aircraft getting ready. Efforts will be made so that the Indian Air Force will receive the first LCA in 2003, after which at least 200 aircraft would be received by 2010."

Dr Kalam said the LCA's induction would enhance self-reliance in the armed forces by 20 per cent and enable the country to achieve the targeted 70 per cent self-reliance in the sector by 2005. Already about 50 per cent self-reliance in the defence sector had been achieved now following the development of missiles and electronic warfare systems besides main battle tanks, he added.

Dr Kalam said the induction of LCA into the air force would mean a business of Rs 300 billion. "What other things can the HAL dream of?" he asked and urged the organisation to put up in all efforts to make the LCA programme a success.

Speaking on the occasion, HAL chairman C G Krishnadas Nair said the seminar aimed at focussing on strategic areas of aeronautical research in not only developing and designing aircraft, but also in systems, accessories and equipment, besides ground handling materials.

He said HAL's research and design efforts had "declined and decayed" for several years following decisions by the higher-ups to go in for imported aircraft and licensed production. This had resulted in widening of the technological gap. The R and D bureau was being revamped and rejuvenated to meet the new challenges which included even development of passenger aircraft.

He said HAL would soon take up development of a new jet trainer (HJT-36) that would replace the existing Kiran (HJT-16) trainers. It would also go in for upgrades of MiG-BIS, MiG 27, and the Jaguar.

UNI

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jan 2019 12:51

I don't mean to be disrespectful to him. Not there's doubt in my mind that wanted the best for nation, bit the fact is our civilian boys have redeemed themselves well. To me he's perhaps a scolding and spanking dad whose beatings disciplined the kid

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jan 2019 12:59

thanks for the trip down memory lane disha ji.
the first time I came to know about LCA was from an uncle's India Today issue sometime in 1999/2000 that had a photo of the green nosed beauty splashed across two pages. growing up in the utter pessimistic 80's and 90's I had internalized the belief that we, as a country would never amount to anything. I was gobsmacked to know that we had a modern fighter project. I still have a scrap-book with that photo carefully cut out and pasted along with arcane details about which lab was contributing which bit.

trivia : can any oldie tell me (without googling) what ASIEO did for the LCA project and why we dont hear its name any more ? :P

I still vividly remember what I was up to 18 years back on this day ! I had already spent most of 4th Jan glued to the news channels to get another glimpse of LCA. those days it mostly meant watching the same video clip on star-news for the umpteenth time. I couldn't wait to get my hands on ALL the newspapers to get a complete coverage (and the photos !)
5th Jan 2001 there was a bandh of some kind in kolkata, so all my local shops were closed, as was public transport. I had to walk a few KM's to find the nearest newspaperwala that was still open to get hold of all the major english dailies and came back home with all the satisfaction of a conquering general. had a continuous stupid grin on my face for the next few days. ABV named it tejas and there was a huge discussion on BRF. we might have that thread in the archives.
I still have virtually every weekly/fortnighly that carried news about LCA's first flight, including a couple I haven't seen anywhere else that shows the blurry M2k chase planes in the background. would post the snaps next time I am in kolkata.

I am feeling like an old man saying this, but people who haven't seen those times may not be able to fathom how important this journey has been. the very fact that they basically redeveloped the control laws after US confiscated ours post POK-II and were confident enough of flying it on an airfract itself was a big deal. at that time, an outsider like me would have felt that the sky is going to fall on our heads anytime now. these people, the DRDO designers, IAF, CEMILAC, HAL and the test pilots kept the faith and brought us here.
FOC is a pretty big deal. it tells the world but more importantly, it tells us we have a machine, designed and made in India by Indians for Indians that is now a full blown fighting machine ready to go into harms way and visit punishment to the enemies. it only gets better from here.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 05 Jan 2019 13:25

Singha wrote:afaik Eurofighter may still not be qualified to carry some munitions that Tornados can. the JSF is another example of a long series of tranches and capability increments all of which widen its use cases. new weapons, sensors and SW updates will keep it going.

no different from a smartwatch or a phone that gets years of updates after the purchase.

the Tejas as it stands today can fight and shoot down enemies in some use cases.we should not call it FOC, because goal posts are always moving and enemy also is adapting...there is nothing FINAL in technology anymore, a weapon to end all weapons, a product will get updates until the last few years of its life. while HW updates will be few and phased in during MLU. the SW updates may get faster from the old norms of once every 1-2 years....who knows using devops cloud centric jenkins build model, they could "push code into production" from a central server after regression tests once in 2 weeks using a unmanned remote control Tejas to touch the test points in flight and on ground rigs and then every squadron just gets automated downloads that burn the firmware and 'reboot' the plane ... well no need for reboot either - using containers and VMs the new sw can come up in another context and when its ready, smoothly take over the HW :D

in future "trucks" that drop off dozens of netcentric munitions and decoys at desired points will just pull these updates that will program the weapons on the fly, reprogram them many times including in flight if needed with JIT EW libs.

the network is the brain now and simple cogs in the machine are the delivery boys. the days of a Mig25R mission needing hours to prepare, 1 hour to shoot pics and another few hours to process imagery before dissemination into the field are WAY SLOW now. airborne recon platforms must be up 24x7 feeding data via satcom antennas into the network for near real time processing.


Would you fly the same plane that has just spawned off jenkins code push? No dreath of ideas though. 8)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 05 Jan 2019 13:37

Rahul M wrote:thanks for the trip down memory lane disha ji.
the first time I came to know about LCA was from an uncle's India Today issue sometime in 1999/2000 that had a photo of the green nosed beauty splashed across two pages. growing up in the utter pessimistic 80's and 90's I had internalized the belief that we, as a country would never amount to anything. I was gobsmacked to know that we had a modern fighter project. I still have a scrap-book with that photo carefully cut out and pasted along with arcane details about which lab was contributing which bit.
......

Older than that was the enthusiasm I saw in young LCA team who was also attending (I was those days systems engineer for HP 1000 real time computers) a seminar on fault tolerant computer electronics at IIT Kharagpur -1987, delivered by an Indian who was at the high castle of computing "Tandem Computers" ! Many years later the same Tandem computers building near my house in Cupertino CA, was used by my friends in Compaq/Digital , as Tandem got bankrupt due to newer computer architecture that used architecture similar to that I built for my MTech project at IIT Delhi.

It's all Maya, have faith in oneself and Maya-devi will yield.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby titash » 06 Jan 2019 02:37

duplicate
Last edited by titash on 06 Jan 2019 02:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby titash » 06 Jan 2019 02:43

Haridas wrote:Older than that was the enthusiasm I saw in young LCA team who was also attending (I was those days systems engineer for HP 1000 real time computers) a seminar on fault tolerant computer electronics at IIT Kharagpur -1987, delivered by an Indian who was at the high castle of computing "Tandem Computers" ! Many years later the same Tandem computers building near my house in Cupertino CA, was used by my friends in Compaq/Digital , as Tandem got bankrupt due to newer computer architecture that used architecture similar to that I built for my MTech project at IIT Delhi.

It's all Maya, have faith in oneself and Maya-devi will yield.


I turned 40 this year and have a vivid recollection of the first time I heard about the LCA. It was a 2 page spread in the Times of India and the article was titled "LCA - the smallest fighter on the drawing board". Very nice detailed article about the projected MiG-21 replacement project and all credit to Rajiv Gandhi for having the foresight to fund this endeavour. Likewise to VS Arunachalam...a lot of people referred to the LCA as "Last Chance for Arunachalam" back in the day. Probably the good Admiral among them.

I ran into Dr. Arunachalam at Carnegie Mellon quite by chance and recognized him after I passed by his room - should've introduced myself and asked for a small PoV on the LCA.

An interesting article with Dr. Kota's side of things:
https://www.thebetterindia.com/87665/tejas-indigenous-light-combat-aircraft-kota-harinarayana-odisha/

All said and done, Indian political leadership across the spectrum (over 3 turbulent decades) has kept this project alive and we are now reaping the benefits.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 06 Jan 2019 03:39

titash wrote:..... All said and done, Indian political leadership across the spectrum (over 3 turbulent decades) has kept this project alive and we are now reaping the benefits.

Last 10 years of UPA , LCA life was knocked off & and instead of killing it dead, it was put on life support. So yes one can see that positive aspect of NDA keeping it alive. I OTOH see active abdication of protecting national security responsibility, in seeking personal profit upside of corruption money that comes from turning LCA comatose and enable bribe buddies. One only has to recall during UPA time, slew of one-two punch media and government servents (e.g. 3 legged cheetha, creation of dark skinned south indians) punching below the belt on LCA to put it to death bed. Greed knows no bound.

IMHO Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar is the true mother of LCA.
Last edited by Haridas on 06 Jan 2019 04:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 06 Jan 2019 03:56

^^^ one of the ways to put on deathbed any program is to strangle it's funding and FUD. For development (HAL, ADA, NAL funding and deliberate egging of one against other) AND end user orders.

In the case of LCA just look at how the above fared during UPA period.

As an aside During PM Narashima Rao time nuclear ore mining, nuclear plants and BARC was severely starved by ? yes you guessed it right Man Mohan Singh. The same person who told US intelligence of indian nuke test preperations ordered by PM Narashima Rao.
Last edited by Haridas on 06 Jan 2019 04:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby kit » 06 Jan 2019 04:26

Truly said we being a democracy its upto the aam abdul like us to educate the rest, since every vote counts !.. one needs to remember how trump got elected and how it was China and not Russia who was behind the scenes, a similar thing could very well play out in India

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2019 11:46

First of all very good post Rakesh.

My first acquaintance with LCA was an article by doyen of Indian aerospace writers Hormuz Mama in Interavia circa 1987.
I devoured every word of it and watched the progress of the LCA all these years. I had a fat folder with cuttings and copies of each article. Sadly it got trashed during clean up.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pralay » 06 Jan 2019 13:06

Haridas wrote:As an aside During PM Narashima Rao time nuclear ore mining, nuclear plants and BARC was severely starved by ? yes you guessed it right Man Mohan Singh. The same person who told US intelligence of indian nuke test preperations ordered by PM Narashima Rao.

This isn't a thread for political slug-fest or propagating conspiracy theories or baseless allegations.
looks like you need a "Conspiracy Theories and Allegations" thread

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby RKumar » 06 Jan 2019 14:08

Any chaiwala/paanwala news on SPs, 2-3 were supposed to do first flight during December. What caused delays??

Keeping in view of these delays, FY 2018 (Apr-2018 to Mar-2019) deliveries still achievable?

I hope HAL can put its acts together and deliver as promised.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Jayram » 06 Jan 2019 15:11

I suppose this is the right time to place my small contribution to the LCA and therefore my first introduction to it. This was in 1991/92. HAL needed AL Alloys extruded bars for the LCA for wing spars. The problem was the dimensions of this extrusions were on the outer edge of our existing machinery available in India at that time and even now. But in the 1990s India did not want to spend precious reserves of foreign currency to import these relatively simple items. So as a relatively fresh engineer we pushed the limit of the press to get these bars extruded. However due to the compression ratios the cross sections of the bars resulted in coarse grain formation which as any metallurgist will tell you is very bad news for uniform properties and crack propagation. The resultant rejection rates were very high almost 70%. And mgmt did not like these high rejection rates. So after some internal research I got permission and had autonomy to go with addition of certain alloys that inhibited coarse grain formation to a large extent into these alloys. The result HAL acceptance rates went up and mgmt were happy to see the rejection rate come down. Mgmt was also happy since they were charging HAL 3 to 4 times as much on these extruded bars and HAL were happy to pay for it as it meant import substitution. HAL were also very very happy to qualify a local supplier and save precious foreign exchange.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 06 Jan 2019 15:39

Jayram wrote:<snip>
The result HAL acceptance rates went up and mgmt were happy to see the rejection rate come down. Mgmt was also happy since they were charging HAL 3 to 4 times as much on these extruded bars and HAL were happy to pay for it as it meant import substitution. HAL were also very very happy to qualify a local supplier and save precious foreign exchange.


Excellent. Thank you for your contribution in our National endeavour. :)

Also shows how theres a way where theres a will. We have no dearth of talent or capability. We only need to show some self confidence.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Jan 2019 16:02

RKumar wrote:Any chaiwala/paanwala news on SPs, 2-3 were supposed to do first flight during December. What caused delays??

Keeping in view of these delays, FY 2018 (Apr-2018 to Mar-2019) deliveries still achievable?

I hope HAL can put its acts together and deliver as promised.

Why are you worried?
How do you know chaiwala and panwala are reliable?
How do you know HAL is not doing everything in its power to deliver on time?

Take a chill pill and become less negative. You have no control so no point worrying.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby RKumar » 06 Jan 2019 18:44

ks_sachin wrote:Why are you worried?
How do you know chaiwala and panwala are reliable?
How do you know HAL is not doing everything in its power to deliver on time?

Take a chill pill and become less negative. You have no control so no point worrying.


As a nationalist, I am worried regarding further delays. I had the understanding that most of the technical issues were taken care and others have work arounds. Now, it can happen that some new surprise has came up which is delaying the first flight. Timelines are given by HAL, so I assume they know what they are doing as they are the best we have like chaiwala n paanwala (you might want to check the definition of these on brf dictionary)

Did I sound negative? - Not at all. Least now when Three legged Cheetah got FOC. it is out of curiosity.

I am waiting to get PIB published Tejas FOC confirmation, so that I can open an excellent Japanese Single Malt Whisky (Yamazaki 2015 limited Edition) :P

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jan 2019 20:26

RKumar, I would love to join you for that Japanese Single Malt Whisky! Tell me time and place please :) I will bring some Glenfiddich single malt scotch as well!

On another note, steer focus away from FOC (it will come when it has to). FOC is not the penultimate goal right now. See this post (on this very page of this dhaaga) ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7630&p=2313063#p2313063

Rather focus on improving and increasing production. I would love to see another 40 Mk1s ordered right now. We need the numbers! That will truly make my day and I will email you for time and place to celebrate!

40 Mk1 + another 40 Mk1s + 83 Mk1A = 163 birds and that too only of the Mk1 / Mk1A variety.

Add another 40 Su-30MKIs to that mix and MMRCA 2.0 is finished! :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 06 Jan 2019 23:05

In terms of development, as things stand, it is the MK1A version what has the larger "order" of 83 from IAF.

So if HAL is able to double down on MK1A development and get the prototype flying quickly, now that FOC is out of the way, it will shut down the final argument.

The question of production number remains, however even that is dependent on MK1A. You cannot have 24/year prod line for 20 FOC order.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jan 2019 01:37

RKumar wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Why are you worried?
How do you know chaiwala and panwala are reliable?
How do you know HAL is not doing everything in its power to deliver on time?

Take a chill pill and become less negative. You have no control so no point worrying.


As a nationalist, I am worried regarding further delays. I had the understanding that most of the technical issues were taken care and others have work arounds. Now, it can happen that some new surprise has came up which is delaying the first flight. Timelines are given by HAL, so I assume they know what they are doing as they are the best we have like chaiwala n paanwala (you might want to check the definition of these on brf dictionary)

Did I sound negative? - Not at all. Least now when Three legged Cheetah got FOC. it is out of curiosity.

I am waiting to get PIB published Tejas FOC confirmation, so that I can open an excellent Japanese Single Malt Whisky (Yamazaki 2015 limited Edition) :P


Prescicely.

We don’t know and we don’t need to know.
Those who need to know, know.
I know what chai and pan wall as do.

You know all this is because you are breaking with tradition!

Just as I would not drink Scottish Sake you cannot do a Japanese “Single Malt”.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sanjaykumar » 07 Jan 2019 04:29

Eh? Many Japanese whiskies put single malt Scotches to shame.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jan 2019 05:06

sanjaykumar wrote:Eh? Many Japanese whiskies put single malt Scotches to shame.

Depends on what what single malts you have imbibed..

Also depends on what blends you drink.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jan 2019 07:16

Jayram wrote:So after some internal research I got permission and had autonomy to go with addition of certain alloys that inhibited coarse grain formation to a large extent into these alloys. The result HAL acceptance rates went up and mgmt were happy to see the rejection rate come down. Mgmt was also happy since they were charging HAL 3 to 4 times as much on these extruded bars and HAL were happy to pay for it as it meant import substitution. HAL were also very very happy to qualify a local supplier and save precious foreign exchange.

This is a great story for a young engineer. Thanks for sharing!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2019 07:56

Jayram, Congratulations for being part of Tejas development at a young age.
And even more for using knowledge about Aluminium Alloys and grain refinement with micro alloys.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby yensoy » 07 Jan 2019 08:05

ramana wrote:Jayram, Congratulations for being part of Tejas development at a young age.
And even more for using knowledge about Aluminium Alloys and grain refinement with micro alloys.


+1

What this forum desperately needs is a like button.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jan 2019 11:42

Indranil wrote:Jaguar Ms have the 2032. Darin IIIs have the 2052s, IAF's first AESA in service.

Is there any good news on the performance of the 2052 on the DARIN III Jaguars? Is it like having cataracts removed?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bhaskar_T » 07 Jan 2019 11:54

As part of the ongoing Rafale political controversy, Defence Minister tabled the notional (as it is not contractual yet) price of 83 Tejas MK1A in LokSabha as 49,757.50 Crores (excluding cost of 2 Simulators of 432 Crores and 300 Crores for Infrastructure). (Also tweet link below).

This suggests price of 599.50 Crores Rupees per Tejas MK1A fighter (non-weaponised?). So, I don't understand what I am missing here! :-( UPA discussion on fly-away Rafale price was 600 Crores (as Raga quotes from the 18 fly-aways draft contract) and Jaitley says BJP/NDA got 9% cheaper Rafale as part of signed 36 Rafale contract. How come Tejas MK1A price is so close to Rafale price of 600 Crores?

Also, in June-July 2018, Defence Minister said that HAL quoted price of 462 Crores/Tejas MK1A was being looked into by a new committee and she will get the report in 60 days. So, in a span of few months, price has gone up from 462 Crores to 600 Crores where at the first place 462 number was being challenged?

I recall in 2014, MOD issued a statement saying that HAL had quoted a price of 162 Crores per Tejas for the first 20 Tejas fighters. (Unfortunately, link of Business Standard Ajai Shukla article from 2014 is below, I think it started with an Indian Express story in June 2018 though). So, how does price of 162 Crores gets to 600 Crores, does the difference in MK1 and MK1A justify four fold increase?

Gurus, I may have missed if this was discussed in detail before, happy to be educated by any link to the previous pages of this Dhaaga or even one liners are welcome such as the 600 Crores is with ABS/Air-Bag (i.e. weaponized price). Please don't shoot this Nanha Jingo.

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 02048?s=19

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 421608.ece

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 829_1.html

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2019 13:38

The prices will definitely include cost of the project at HAL, logistics, and won't just be airframe fly-away costs as you are assuming. Basically its the (program cost (to HAL) + actual cost of each aircraft + additional items + HAL margin) divided by the number of airframes.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bhaskar_T » 07 Jan 2019 14:22

Karan M wrote:The prices will definitely include cost of the project at HAL, logistics, and won't just be airframe fly-away costs as you are assuming. Basically its the (program cost (to HAL) + actual cost of each aircraft + additional items + HAL margin) divided by the number of airframes.


Since, 89% shares of HAL are held by GOI/President of India and remaining 11% by investors, to a large extent for GOI, this is money going from one pocket to another. However, this money circulation at the level of 600 Crores/Tejas rather than at a smaller amount of say 300 Crores prevents the difference of money benefitting something else. So, one should expect future HAL profit (~ 2000-2500 Crores/year since last 4FYs) to go up significantly as program and project costs are sunk costs. This ineffective money circulation begs the question what else we could do with money idling in account.

If indeed, 600 Crores/MK1A is an agreed firm contractual rate, wouldn't IAF (the customer) want much more capable and cheaper Rafale than MK1A. So, rather than 83 MK1As of per fighter at 600 Crores, how about, 2 squadrons of MK1AS (36) and 3 squadrons (48) of Rafale. (Yeah, 3rd squadron at Andaman). Of course, there is a consequence in terms of investment in indigenization versus investment in air-dominance capability but 36 MK1As can always be later complemented with more MK1As/MK2 in 2025-2030. I feel, money is being locked up.

Good thing with the higher price is if ever Tejas gets exported, Desh gets the benefit but whether Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, African countries would like to order Tejas who is as expensive as Rafale or Sukhois but is less capable. I for one would like to order 2 JF-17 Bundars than 1 Tejas in the same price, wouldn't you?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 07 Jan 2019 15:29

Unit price = Total contract price / no of jet >> Pappu Maths. Period!!


Never thought we will have something triumphing Madrassa maths and Lahori Logic.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 07 Jan 2019 15:37

Bhaskar_T wrote:
Karan M wrote:The prices will definitely include cost of the project at HAL, logistics, and won't just be airframe fly-away costs as you are assuming. Basically its the (program cost (to HAL) + actual cost of each aircraft + additional items + HAL margin) divided by the number of airframes.


Since, 89% shares of HAL are held by GOI/President of India and remaining 11% by investors, to a large extent for GOI, this is money going from one pocket to another. However, this money circulation at the level of 600 Crores/Tejas rather than at a smaller amount of say 300 Crores prevents the difference of money benefitting something else. So, one should expect future HAL profit (~ 2000-2500 Crores/year since last 4FYs) to go up significantly as program and project costs are sunk costs. This ineffective money circulation begs the question what else we could do with money idling in account.

If indeed, 600 Crores/MK1A is an agreed firm contractual rate, wouldn't IAF (the customer) want much more capable and cheaper Rafale than MK1A. So, rather than 83 MK1As of per fighter at 600 Crores, how about, 2 squadrons of MK1AS (36) and 3 squadrons (48) of Rafale. (Yeah, 3rd squadron at Andaman). Of course, there is a consequence in terms of investment in indigenization versus investment in air-dominance capability but 36 MK1As can always be later complemented with more MK1As/MK2 in 2025-2030. I feel, money is being locked up.

Good thing with the higher price is if ever Tejas gets exported, Desh gets the benefit but whether Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, African countries would like to order Tejas who is as expensive as Rafale or Sukhois but is less capable. I for one would like to order 2 JF-17 Bundars than 1 Tejas in the same price, wouldn't you?


You are being presumptuous, drawing long shot conclusions based on barely any information. I suggest you wait for some solid info to come out. No one has any info on LCA contract. No amount of asking questions here gonna bring that info out. Why not first get the facts right and then take a step further...? Why try to be ahead of curve when you know you are gonna take a wrong turn anyway...?

First of all, no one charges 100% margin on A&D HW. Please don't take IAF to be stupid as to pay double the cost of what actually is expenditure. Second, no point in blaming money circulated thru HAL when even the budgeted money is not spent completely. Every year 10-15k Cr money is returned to MoF by MoD as unspent money. Its not like the money saved from HAL's profit is gonna make any impact on our defense acquisitions. No point in hankering for treating the symptoms.


PS: Check the series of tweets between Vishnu Som and Angad Singh. For some weird reason I am not able to copy link. But should be fairly easy to find. Angad Singh claims he has confirmed that the 50k price includes development cost too for MK1A version. His estimate of per unit price is 50Mil.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 07 Jan 2019 16:22

^^^ Tweets
Vishnu : Ma'am ... does the Rs. 50,000 crores for 83 Tejas Mk 1As you have mentioned include the cost of weaponry because when we reported this earlier, each Tejas was coming to Rs.463 crore. Even adding simulator and infrastructure costs, this doesn't seem to add up to 50K cr.

Angad : Vishnu, this is total Mk.1A programme cost, not unit cost x83. I wondered the same thing when the AoN was announced last Dec, but was able to confirm it shortly after.

Vishnu : Oh OK ... so by total programme cost, you mean the cost of development, the cost of manufacture of the 1A, the cost of weapons, the cost of infra and sims?

Angad : All of the above, minus weapons.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 02625?s=19


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