Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 10 Mar 2018 01:05

so extra 40 SU30MKI ARE NOT COMING? (i.e. the order is for 273 and not 313 SU30MKI?)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2018 01:13

As per ACM Dhanoa's announcement on 08 Oct 2017, 40 more Su-30MKIs are being acquired. But no order as of yet has been placed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 10 Mar 2018 02:28

I think very highly of Raju too. I think he was merit based appointment under NDA govt and have done very well if you discount for HAL is a PSU.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Katare » 10 Mar 2018 02:35

fanne wrote:We have 30 or so left from 272 order. It is 3 years (12*3). If indeed extra 40 have been order, it is another three years. So even if we can convert, it can be only after 6 years. Till then full capacity is needed to deliver SU30MKI.


I think the initial order for 140 is done and the second order of 42 would come in SKD kits (faster delivery) that HAL would assemble so it'll get done in a year or two. Raju had said clearly that line would close in 2019. Second order of 40 aircraft is more IAF wish than actual order. The last batch of 42 cost us $4.1 Billion, next one could be $6 billion not counting weapons. With Rafael and LCA orders placed and talks about procuring more MRCA, not sure if IAF have additional money to buy super heavy aircrafts like MKI.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vips » 10 Mar 2018 05:31

Even if the SU30 production run comes to an end in 3 years, the Nashik facility of HAL will be occupied by the mid life upgrade program(Super SU30) for at least 15 years.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Viv S » 10 Mar 2018 07:57

Rakesh wrote:As per ACM Dhanoa's announcement on 08 Oct 2017, 40 more Su-30MKIs are being acquired. But no order as of yet has been placed.

I think that number quoted by the ACM always referred to the final tranche of orders being serviced by HAL rather than a new order.

Had a new order been placed, we'd have heard of it from other sources - the MoD would have processed the request and the DAC & CCS would have had to sanction it. (Similar to the Tejas Mk1A.)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2018 08:22

ACM saab has mention 40 more planes on a couple of times. Will happen.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 10 Mar 2018 09:22

I think so too. 2 more squadrons of Su-30s coming. And may I add, this is very prudent. 300 Su-30 + mediums + LCAs should carry us till the 2030s.

At that point, AMCA+FGFA should start replacing the mediums + Su-30s. IMVVHO 150 heavy, 250 medium and 400 light fighters is a good make up for a fleet having 800 fighters.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 10 Mar 2018 16:46

Haridas wrote:IMHO Trusted foriegn partner is an oxymoron.
Which country has locally developed aircraft weapons of consequence? AFAIK not Singapore, Vietnam, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina .... Nigeria, Phillipines or even pakistan.


Partner does not mean they have developed an aircraft.

It means they have many of their strategic interests in common with India.

That being said, Singapore has defense companies that produces reasonably high tech land gear like their Terrex 3 APC and Bionix AFV.

When you consider India has yet to even produce a mass-manufactured tank or even an indigenous APC that it can be proud of despite decades of development, that alone is an achievement for such a small country.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 10 Mar 2018 16:51

Bart S wrote:Open source is a vague term. In no shape or form should we give away actual source code (in a form that Richard Stallman would approve of) to anybody else. OTOH, what should be done is build on an open architecture and open interfaces/APIs to let virtually any third party integration take place and deep integration at that. Avoids compromising our IP and security and avoids potential customers from having the 'full Russian customer service experience' :)


They better do something on the MK2's open-architecture design.

The only hope of keeping the MK2 plane up to date is to encourage 3rd party integration of weapons, pods, other high-tech, light weight gear that enhances the ability of the aircraft. That will play an increasing role in the future with small, nimble, high tech companies offering their additions to the aircraft.

Waiting on slow moving govt bureaucracies to research & develop high tech gear for the plane will ensure it will become obsolete fast.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 10 Mar 2018 19:00

Indranil wrote:But as the Su-30 production draws to an end in 3 years or so, what would you do with that facility? The HTT-40 will be built in Kanpur.

MRO and MLU. We have huge fleet and largest MRO facility anywhere in the world IIRC (and only one outside Russia capable of full overhaul) for Su-30. We can grab wprk from other non-Russian Su30 operators as well like Malaysia. Current MRO capacity is low per some report I read a while back. A fleet of 272 with every plane coming for MRO every 14yrs (was 10yrs but extended to 14yrs due to lower than expected utilization by IAF) means we need Full overhaul capacity of 272/14 ~ 20/yr ( Full overhaul is as much or even more work as full assembly, as entire aircraft is stripped to bare matel and checked thoroughly for any structural damage). Add to that MLU work like Super Su program, Brahmos upgrading for 40 jets, regular MRO between full overhauls and possible work from other countries. There is more than enough work for an assembly line of 12/yr in coming days. And if you agree that 2 more Sq are very likely to come, wouldnt the idea of tapering down production rate would go against the whole idea of jacking up numbers in IAF...? IAF needs both Su30 and LCA as fast as possible.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2018 19:11

Indranil wrote:I think so too. 2 more squadrons of Su-30s coming. And may I add, this is very prudent.

Is this actually happening? Will the final number move from 272 to 314?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2018 21:25

Yes in order to make up for the drop in squadron numbers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby abhik » 11 Mar 2018 00:07

There is no official statement indicating an order of 40 extra MKIs (over and above the original 272) - the statement from the ACM doesn't state this either. And I don't think extra MKIs are coming, the IAF simply does not have the money to parallely buy 3 different fighters (Tejas, MKI and Rafale). If they had to choose between more MKIs and Rafale follow up then IMO they will choose the Rafale.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 11 Mar 2018 03:33

Money is from GOI. IAF gives requirement only. ACM has said it and we need to go by that.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Mar 2018 07:05

That is what I went by, but I was told that since HAL has not received a firm order...the news is not correct.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srai » 11 Mar 2018 16:11

^^^
“Intent” only ... approval needs to go through the usual bureaucratic steps. Given 36-months lead-time, the firm orders must happen soon as the current orders will be completed in two/three years.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 12 Mar 2018 02:10

Indranil wrote:But as the Su-30 production draws to an end in 3 years or so, what would you do with that facility? The HTT-40 will be built in Kanpur.


I would build any attrition replacements required.
I would build another 12 as Wartime Reserve.
I would build another 6 as attrition reserve.
Begin with midlife upgrades.

And last not least begin with AMCA or FGFA

Does the Su30 facility have one or two lines ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 12 Mar 2018 02:43

I would also buy 12-20 as upgrade replacement. When 12-20 planes from a squadron comes for upgrade, they move onto the latest batch of reserve, when the upgrade is complete, they get back their SU30MKI and replacement squadron moves to the next squadron that have sent their plane for upgrade. This way we maintain the required sanctioned SQ number and upgrades happen faster (unlike mirage 2000, where we cannot send 20 of them in one go, as that will deplete our strength drastically, we send 1-2 for upgrade at a time). If you look at it we need 12-20 (upgrade replacement), 6 attrition and maybe another 12 wartime total of 30 to maintain the 272/314 number.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2018 05:19

If 18 aircraft is the thumb rule for a combat squadron and if 272 is the confirmed order, that works out to 15+ squadrons. Seven have crashed to date - with all 7 aircraft being a write off (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI#Accidents) - so that brings it down to 265 aircraft. 265 is shy of 15 full squadrons, but that is just semantics. If another 40 do eventually come, that will bring the number up to 305 aircraft or almost close to 17 squadrons. Not bad at all. Upgrade all of them to Super Sukhoi standard with air-launched BrahMos and improved engines (Kaveri200) and you are looking at one lethal killing machine, not that she already isn't.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 12 Mar 2018 05:46

hmmm quietly realising that we are speaking Su30 news and ideas in a Tejas thread.
:-)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srai » 12 Mar 2018 17:10

Rakesh wrote:If 18 aircraft is the thumb rule for a combat squadron and if 272 is the confirmed order, that works out to 15+ squadrons. Seven have crashed to date - with all 7 aircraft being a write off (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI#Accidents) - so that brings it down to 265 aircraft. 265 is shy of 15 full squadrons, but that is just semantics. If another 40 do eventually come, that will bring the number up to 305 aircraft or almost close to 17 squadrons. Not bad at all. Upgrade all of them to Super Sukhoi standard with air-launched BrahMos and improved engines (Kaveri200) and you are looking at one lethal killing machine, not that she already isn't.

There are extra aircrafts as fleet reserves beyond the 18 assigned to squadrons. How many seems to differ on the type. In the IAF, Russian-origin ones have more reserves than Western-ones.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2018 19:36

Please stick to topic

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 12 Mar 2018 23:08

Anything on SP8 & SP9 .. if they can be ready by end of March ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby putnanja » 13 Mar 2018 16:27

SP-8 performed first flight today!

From LCA - Tejas FB post ...

LCA Tejas SP-8 (LA-5008) successfully flew for the first time today taking off at 1542 hrs from HAL Airport in Bengaluru and landing back at 1615 hrs. SP-8 flew for 32 mins with the experienced Gp. Capt. KK Venugopal (Retd) on the controls.
This is the eight serial production aircraft and will be handed over to the Indian Air Force after a few production sorties.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 13 Mar 2018 17:12

With #Tejas SP8 out flying now, HAL hopes to have SP9 too ready to join the flying duties before the close of this FY, if all goes well.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/97 ... 57985?s=19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 13 Mar 2018 18:21

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/973526160649936898

Tejas SP-8 flew for the first time today & is from the new line in the old Hawk hangar which at full capacity will produce 8 per year (py). This augments existing production facilities at the Tejas division ( 5 py) & the old Kiran hangar of the Aircraft Division ( 3py).


SP-8 is first aircraft from the Hawk hangar.

Max capacity of:
(1) Tejas division - 5 p.a.
(2) Kiran Hangar - 3 p.a.
(3) Hawk hangar - 8 p.a.

2018-19 will see 6 from (1) + (2) and 6 from (3). Limitation is in sourcing LRUs.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neshant » 13 Mar 2018 18:26

JTull wrote:

2018-19 will see 6 from (1) + (2) and 6 from (3). Limitation is in sourcing LRUs.



how about getting Lockheed Martin or Boeing to build some of the LRUs.

they have a vast network of subcontractors in the US who can take on the task.

more expensive but it will get the job done sooner.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vips » 13 Mar 2018 18:32

Super.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 13 Mar 2018 19:06

putnanja wrote:SP-8 performed first flight today!

Beautiful! Thank You. Page 1 of this thread updated.

Some more info is needed for SP-8 on page 1. If you know, please update it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 13 Mar 2018 19:08

Neshant wrote:
JTull wrote:

2018-19 will see 6 from (1) + (2) and 6 from (3). Limitation is in sourcing LRUs.



how about getting Lockheed Martin or Boeing to build some of the LRUs.

they have a vast network of subcontractors in the US who can take on the task.

more expensive but it will get the job done sooner.


Such a move will be regressive. Big companies like LM/Boeing don't make all LRUs themselves. They get smaller companies to make them. They just integrate everything on final assembly line. This is how HAL is trying to become.

Not to mention the dependency it will create with associated pitfalls.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 13 Mar 2018 19:09

ashishvikas wrote:Anything on SP8 & SP9 .. if they can be ready by end of March ?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/973529829344759808 ---> And yes, HAL is readying Tejas SP-9 for its first flight as well. They want to get it done before March 31. Let's see if it happens.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 13 Mar 2018 19:10

HAL is trying to push thru SP-9 flight before 31st March.

Added: Ah, seems i was beaten to this news.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 13 Mar 2018 19:39

Rakesh wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Anything on SP8 & SP9 .. if they can be ready by end of March ?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/973529829344759808 ---> And yes, HAL is readying Tejas SP-9 for its first flight as well. They want to get it done before March 31. Let's see if it happens.


Thank you Sir.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby KBDagha » 13 Mar 2018 20:11

What was the SP target for this year? 6 I believe. We have 4 flying so far... Let's hope SP9 flies before 31st and they expedite the process to make up for time lost on second line.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 13 Mar 2018 20:37

Neshant wrote:
how about getting Lockheed Martin or Boeing to build some of the LRUs.

they have a vast network of subcontractors in the US who can take on the task.

more expensive but it will get the job done sooner.


Saar, it would bode well for all of us and BRF, if you please at least spend few minutes before typing. Apply "reality" filter to start with.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 13 Mar 2018 20:41

JTull wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/973526160649936898

Tejas SP-8 flew for the first time today & is from the new line in the old Hawk hangar which at full capacity will produce 8 per year (py). This augments existing production facilities at the Tejas division ( 5 py) & the old Kiran hangar of the Aircraft Division ( 3py).


SP-8 is first aircraft from the Hawk hangar.

Max capacity of:
(1) Tejas division - 5 p.a.
(2) Kiran Hangar - 3 p.a.
(3) Hawk hangar - 8 p.a.

2018-19 will see 6 from (1) + (2) and 6 from (3). Limitation is in sourcing LRUs.


Excellent, HAL is working faster than I expected. The LRU sourcing will be sorted out in an year when the Tier-1 suppliers will get up to speed. Give them some time to catch up.

The speed with which 3rd line started production after go ahead from MoD, says a lot. We don't need any line in outside HAL, BLR. They can start one more easily, once the suppliers start supplying at full speed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 13 Mar 2018 20:59

ashishvikas wrote:Anything on SP8 & SP9 .. if they can be ready by end of March ?


SP8 flew and awaiting SP9

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/97 ... 57985?s=19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby putnanja » 13 Mar 2018 21:11

From Ananthkrishnan's twitter feed @writetake

✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈


@writetake
4m4 minutes ago

8 flying. 12 more to come from the IOC basket. Here's #Tejas SP8 after its 33-min maiden flight in #Bangalore. @akananth

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 13 Mar 2018 21:21

11 will probably be done within a year's(or 1.5) time. Will MK1A be ready for production within this period? It is still doing refueling probe testing.

It has to try new radar, reduced weight and component re-arrangement.

Ajai Shukla's article says MK1A production is expected to start next year. hmm..
Last edited by nam on 13 Mar 2018 21:26, edited 1 time in total.


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