MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Aditya_V
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Jul 2019 12:21

Whats also clear is Lockheed Martin is also moving away from the F-16 and its derivatives, F-15 will be exported to Tier 2 nations before F-35 is made available allies other than Israel, Japan, NATO after 7-8 years when US will start developing its 6th Gen platform.

Countries having F-16 like Turkey will be locked with a platform they will have to start getting rid of 8-10 years time, US will start winding down the production of spare parts once F-35's become available in large numbers in the USAF and USANG. Then they still playing hardball with spares support.

AMRAAM today for US is like what the sparrow was in the late 1980's/ early 90's. While USAF, USN, Israel, close NATO allies are moving towards to the AIM 260 series of missiles-in a few years its production will also be wound down.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 30 Jul 2019 13:15

A whole lot of fragrant and complete rubbish in this article.

AMRAAMs with Pakistan are AIM-120 C5, we could have received the C7 or even the D.

IAF doesnt believe in networking.. yeah sure. Thats why its entire radar grid is netted to the IACCS and soon, so will its SAGW. Su-30s all have a common encrypted datalink. So do the MiG-29s (pre-upgrade had the Lazur). Now, the fighters are all to begin getting the ODL, operational datalink to share weapons, targeting, aircraft information.

As regards IAFs reliance on dogfights - I presume this is why IAF carts its planes all across the world to engage in LFE - Large Force Engagements and train in BVR.

Fact is IAF trains for both WVR and BVR, as the transition between both can be quite fluid in a complex battlespace. "Aint no kill like a gun kill" - to extrapolate that to IAF does not believe in BVR is just risible rubbish.

MeshaVishwas wrote:Agree with the geopolitical viewpoint but his Technical knowledge is questionable.
But everyone here probably knew that the VayuSena would not want the Fteens.

F-16 never stood a chance with IAF. Lockheed Martin messed it up so much
https://theprint.in/opinion/f-16-never- ... 69699/amp/

-Abhijit Iyer-Mitra

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Barath » 30 Jul 2019 16:52

brar_w wrote:
Dileep wrote:^^Well, may be he was a Matheswaran clone. Who knows? But the fact is that the buttons on the glass of F-35 moved back to the old tactile buttons on the panel at the same convenient location for left hand operation as in F-16 when it is adapted to F-21.


The F-21 cockpit has evolved via multiple iterations during the block 50 and block 60 transitions and with the block 70 and F-21 proposal now.....they've used a smaller central display than the one they are putting on the block 70 probably to save on cost or for a lack of need (since the central area is so much bigger now).

.... All the USAF asked of them for its Viper upgrade (cockpit) was a larger central display.

On the T-X Boeing has done something completely different from what LM has done on the F-21 or Boeing on the F-15QA/EX.



Good stuff. I liked your post and link on the F35 PVI etc

https://www.stratpost.com/detailed-lock ... o-india/3/

Per LM's Balserak in 2018, that center pedestal display wasn't a touch screen, it was basically just a HDTV

"it’s essentially a high definition television set. It is not a touchscreen. And that was deliberate because in this configuration touching the screen when the pilot is maneuvering around manipulating things — you could actually physically touch and move something you don’t want. That was on purpose."

[The F16 has a very small cockpit, so this could be legit; OTOH, it could also be a cost saving measure. ] I think it's likely the same CPD provided by Elbit for F16V https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 16-upgrade

The Large Area Display, though,...
https://www.news18.com/news/auto/lockhe ... 40311.html

Elbit USA provides the LAD for F18 Block III, F15 upgrades etc. What are the odds that it would be relevant/chosen for the F21? How much could the F21 could piggyback off F16V work and some of the work done by Elbit on other planes, if so ?

https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/33312
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -f-15-f/18

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Jul 2019 17:13

^^karan the thing is idiots like AIM outnumber people like Brar, you and others. Even I can call his stupidity. He chose to call IAF the arab swordsman, he forgets that IAF didnt even use real Machine Gun (Su 30 or mig 29) like Arnold in Predator ...a lot of people will read this article and pakis will get excited that they can win against India and do another mischeif. That the only positive i see from this article.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 30 Jul 2019 19:27

Aditya_V wrote:....


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2368070#p2368070

Barath wrote:...


The purpose of the USAF CPD upgrades was essentially to provide a High definition color display for the sensor feed including targeting pods and a larger display that shows targeting information from the AESA that they also had plans to upgrade to. This was followed by a contract for new mission computers that would be essential to extract the full potential of the AESA. It was just a very minor upgrade for the hundreds of USAF active duty, ANG and Reserve F-16's out there so that they could employ the higher fidelity sensors more optimally. On the current F-21 cockpit the need for the CPD has somewhat diminished given the much larger primary areas and also to save on room. The way I saw it in the couple of pictures I've seen deviated significantly from the current cockpit so those large flat panel displays upfront would be carrying most of that information.

[The F16 has a very small cockpit, so this could be legit; OTOH, it could also be a cost saving measure. ] I think it's likely the same CPD provided by Elbit for F16V https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 16-upgrade


Elbit USA is providing these units for F-16V upgrades. Raytheon is providing the CPD units for the USAF upgrade program along with the new mission computers.



Elbit USA provides the LAD for F18 Block III, F15 upgrades etc. What are the odds that it would be relevant/chosen for the F21? How much could the F21 could piggyback off F16V work and some of the work done by Elbit on other planes, if so ?


Elbit USA is also the vendor that won round 2 of the F-35 contract (LED panels for block 4) after losing round 1 to L3 (these are internally chosen by LM) so its logical that they would also be heavily involved with the F-21 given they already work with LM on F-16V upgrades which is a very profitable market (well over 200-300 aircraft). Looking at the F-21 cockpit, I don't think there are many similarities with the F-16V. It is a more significant departure but then it's just a proposal and things could probably change if this thing ever materializes.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Barath » 31 Jul 2019 12:16

Yes, you are right, I had the F35 block 4 link for elbit. [also less relevant legacy F16 HUD back end upgrades etc], but skipped posting it; figuring F16V, F18 etc may actually be more relevant. I guess I was thinking that the CPD would be common between the F16V new/upgrades and F16IN Block 70 aka F21. (which would save on cost/rework). And the rest of it (including LAD usage) would be proposal, with much of it offloaded/outsourced to elbit to create a concept/dummy for now & to rework and prepare in case it actually came closer to winning. Hadn't noticed the Raytheon bit.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 01 Aug 2019 20:43

Barath wrote:I guess I was thinking that the CPD would be common between the F16V new/upgrades and F16IN Block 70 aka F21. (which would save on cost/rework).


The current F-21 cockpit revealed recently is a significant deviation from what was part of the prior offer to the IAF or the current F-16V configuration (block 70). I don't see a very significant need to fit the CPD there because the primary displays are now larger and can accommodate most of what was to go into the CPD. Even if there was a need, I can't see how they will fit the current CPD in there. I think a CPD option would essentially make them go back to the set up they had planned earlier which made room for it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashbhee » 15 Aug 2019 21:52

Some Youtubers are reporting that Dassault Rafale is getting the contract for all 114. Dassault is suppose to close the French production line after completing the order for French Air Force and move the production line to India. I am not sure how much of this is true.

Anyway, when do you think they will decide on this?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 15 Aug 2019 22:14

Fake News Sir. See Below...

All this talk started from one tweet from a twitter user called ninjamonkey. The ninja is making bandar of many folks online.

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 15 Aug 2019 23:59

ashbhee wrote:Some Youtubers are reporting that Dassault Rafale is getting the contract for all 114. Dassault is suppose to close the French production line after completing the order for French Air Force and move the production line to India. I am not sure how much of this is true.

Anyway, when do you think they will decide on this?


I regularly see those YouTube videos... But none of them are really credible...
Don't believe anything unless it comes in mainstream media... Everything else is at best speculation and at worst Fake News...
-
MMRCA even RFP is not yet out... How will they finalize the Vendor...? MMRCA will take atleast 4-5 more years before a deal is signed...
Even if Govt. decides to make a direct deal with Dassault, Govt. needs to cancel the existing Tender midway and need to open fresh round of negotiations...

If that happens, you need not have to ask here... There will be huge media & opposition circus...
Even other Companies will raise lot of objections...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 16 Aug 2019 00:11

Actually, cancelling the tender is not all that hard to do. The opposition can cry hoarse, but that argument can be countered by stating that the numbers are falling (and they indeed are) and the process to acquire new platforms will take a long while. With the strong mandate in Modi 2.0, the only thing the opposition can do is cry foul. But that is as far as it will go. Chowkidar Chor Hai fell flat on RaGa's face. That slogan did not work. The Indian populace has gotten wise to that tactic.

Article 370? What happened. Opposition is dumbfounded. Totally clueless.
CDS Appointment? Same story.

And a new competition - which will run circles in MoD - can commence for a fifth generation, twin/single engine platform :lol: We are the undisputed master of bureaucratic legalese. And the MoD could run that competition for the next 20 years, with no outcome. Very easy for the MoD to do. AJT took three decades. MMRCA (now MRFA) is almost 20 years.

But the issue is, there is no money for 114 Rafales.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 16 Aug 2019 00:16

I'm only talking about the media noise that will come if the news is real vs YouTube speculation...
-
Anyways, I do agree with what you wrote...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby chola » 16 Aug 2019 00:16

^^^ As much as I love the Rafale, all money (whatever there is) must be put into the local industrial base and you can do that only by expanding the orders for Tejas and its follow-ons like the MWF.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby fanne » 16 Aug 2019 00:48

Tejas can perhaps equal F-16 D (maybe at best 50-50, realistically less), will be outgunned by J-2/3XX. Rafale will win the TSP ones 99% times and most JXX also at a very high % (except the stealth ones, if they are indeed stealthy). I would rather have fewer of these than many of LCAs. Realistically, we will have many LCAs (or so I hope), we need a total of 76-90 Rafale (2 sq on each front and 1 for New Clear)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 16 Aug 2019 12:26

fanne wrote:Tejas can perhaps equal F-16 D (maybe at best 50-50, realistically less), will be outgunned by J-2/3XX. Rafale will win the TSP ones 99% times and most JXX also at a very high % (except the stealth ones, if they are indeed stealthy). I would rather have fewer of these than many of LCAs. Realistically, we will have many LCAs (or so I hope), we need a total of 76-90 Rafale (2 sq on each front and 1 for New Clear)


Dhanoa ji made the similar point many times...
He said that IAF zeroed in on Rafale keeping in mind the technological advancements of PLAAF in the next 15-20 years...

IAF also looked at the growth potential of the platform...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2019 20:42

Committed To Create An Aerospace Ecosystem In India: Leanne Caret, President & CEO, Boeing Defence Space & Security
http://www.businessworld.in/article/Com ... 19-174586/

Q. Tell us about Boeing’s offer of Super Hornet for the MMRCA 2.0 and how do you intend to make the proposal to the Indian government. Can you highlight the new elements in your proposal that set you apart from the competitors?

A. Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet Block III is the newest capability that we are offering to the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy, and how we approach ‘Make in India’ underscores our proven track record of keeping our promises and our commitment to a long-term partnership. The Super Hornet is the frontline multi-role fighter of navies and air forces around the world and is the most modern and the stealthiest aircraft in the competition. The US Navy recently awarded Boeing a three-year contract for 78 F/A-18 new Block III Super Hornets. Its technology insertions keep outpacing future threats for decades. The Super Hornet offers affordable stealth because it is designed to be more reliable and therefore costs far less to operate than other fighters. The Block III adds extensive capability upgrades that include enhanced network capacity, longer range, even better stealth performance, an advanced cockpit system and new sensors, with the life of the aircraft extended from 6,000 hours to 10,000 hours.

With the Super Hornet, the Indian Navy would not just get the most advanced platform but also tremendously benefit from US Navy’s know-how, technology and tactics. These would be transformative for India and further the defence partnership between India and the United States. Besides, we are excited about the public-private partnership that will bring together Boeing, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Mahindra’s global scale, manufacturing and supply chain expertise as we build an entirely new advanced manufacturing facility in India. This facility, when completed, will be a state-of-the-art fighter production facility addressing the infrastructure, personnel training, and operational tools and techniques required to produce a next-gen fighter aircraft in India.

Q. The government is also working on the indigenous AMCA programme and expects the winner of MMRCA to contribute. How does that work for Boeing?

A. The key to a successful ‘Make in India’ programme is building a globally competitive fighter manufacturing base. But doing this takes time and investment. Boeing has already started working with Indian industry and customers over the last few decades to do this. Boeing’s approach to building a 21st-century ecosystem for the F/A-18 Super Hornet in India is based on over a decade of our industrial commitment in India. We have been sourcing structural and electrical sub-systems from the Indian supply chain for our F/A-18 Super Hornets for years. Manufacturing fighter aircraft requires a modern production process including precision manufacturing, and if the F/A-18 is selected by India, there will be an additional investments that we will make to build the aerospace ecosystem. For this reason, the F/A-18 co-produced in India in a factory-of-the-future would be the most suited for AMCA programme.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2019 20:44

In the market for new fighter jets, IAF to monitor export version of 5th gen Russian Sukhoi Su-57 aircraft
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/in-the-ma ... 7-aircraft

The Indian Air Force (IAF) which is in the market for a new fighter jet is expected to closely monitor the Russian fifth generation stealth aircraft Sukhoi Su-57 as it is all set to demonstrate its export variant at the MAKS-2019 airshow in Moskow, Eurasian Times has reported. CEO of Rosoboronexport (which manufactures the aircraft) Alexander Mikheev has informed that all the documents required for SU-57E’s export are now ready and the jets can directly be obtained by foreign buyers. This airshow would be held from 27 August to 1 September. As per a report by TASS, the Su-57E would be the main exhibit at the airshow along with Il-112VE military transport aircraft. The Su-57E boasts of “multi-functionality, automation, high degree of combat employment processes and super-maneuverability”. The single seat twin engine fifth generation air-superiority aircraft is also a stealth fighter - a capability missing from the IAF’s combat arsenal.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 07 Sep 2019 04:55

FWIW. Doesn't seem a tempting offer, even though I will always hold the F-16 to be a terrific fighter that will continue to be potent for decades to come. This name change to F-21 doesn't change any of that, and trying to take away the Paki stink on the F-16 name won't work. Really didn't expect LM to think such marketing tomfoolery would work.

The US Govt. caveat that he inserted in there (which is true TBH), really puts the dampener on any promise of any real technology transfer. the US Govt. simply won't allow any worthwhile sharing of technology.

Lockheed Martin willing to partner India on Tejas Mk2 and AMCA

...

SP’s: The IAF has a big commitment to the indigenous LCA Tejas fighter. Will this kill the market for foreign single engine aircraft in India?

Lall: The LCA is an air defence asset. The F-21 is deep penetration strike aircraft. And so, the operational profiles are different. The F-21 flies farther. It stays on station longer, and it gets there faster. So, it has a very different operational profile. The F-21 is very complementary to the Tejas. We’ve also extended our support, in any way possible, to the Government of India on the LCA.

SP’s: Does that mean there’s potential for (international) cooperation on the LCA Mk-II?

Lall: Absolutely. We’re willing to work with the Government of India whether it’s the LCA Mk2 or AMCA.

SP’s: What’s your offer?

Lall: Depends upon their requirements. And we will work with the Government of India. Everything is caveated to US Government approval and what the Government of India desires a foreign OEM to assist with.

SP’s: You are a seasoned observer of the Indian scene. What could be the possible areas of cooperation on the LCA or AMCA? What could be on offer?

Lall: We have a system called the Auto GICAS, which is a collision avoidance system. It can be integrated on to the Indian platform. It’s a unique system that saves lives. It’s able to correct when the pilot is disoriented. The other technical expertise can be in terms of increasing production rates and capacities.

SP’s: Lockheed Martin’s earlier offer of the F-16 in the MMRCA programme was not found technically compliant. How is the F-21 offer different in capability terms?

Lall: So, there are several unique aspects to the F-21. One is that it’s the only aircraft in the world with dual refuelling – both the probe and drogue and the boom refueller. The second aspect is that it has an India unique EW suite. The third thing is that it has 40 per cent more weapon carrying capability through the triple rail launcher that we have on the F-21. Then, we’ve added an aft dorsal fin which gives increased growth capacity to it, and finally it’s got a modern cockpit.



and then this F-21 leading to F-35 question..although it is moot now that we've seen Turkey ejected from the F-35 program thanks to its S-400 purchase. That alone should make it obvious that the F-35 is never going to be a real option for the IAF, not that the IAF was gung-ho about in the first place.

And being the marketing exec that he is, Vivek Lall completely skirts the issue and instead talks about 2 operational 5th gen fighters that are of no concern to the IAF since neither are on offer in the MRCA competition.

SP’s: Will the F-21 lead in to the F-35?

Lall: To start with, the F-35 would be a government-to-government conversation. I can’t really comment on that. But having said that, Lockheed Martin is the only company in the world which has two operational fifth-generation fighters. All these technologies are leveraged for the F-21 platform.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 07 Sep 2019 05:02

Lockheed Martin is yet to engage in a single Commercial deal on the F-35 and it is widely believed that such an arrangement has not been sanctioned by the US DOD and Congress. The level of pre-operational export clearance granted by the US Congress on F-35 systems virtually guarantees that most of not all of the sales in then short to medium term will be G2G routed through the JPO. Lockheed will be free to offer support, weapon or sustainment packages via DCS.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 10 Sep 2019 05:30

MAKS 2019- Refined MiG-35 gets new missiles and avionics

Image

Notice the smaller radome than the MiG-29M2 that has been flying around touted as the MiG-35. This version has an AESA radar on board it seems.

Image

Russia still hopes to win an Indian order for the MiG-35 multirole fighter, RAC MiG general director Ilya Tarasenko told journalists at MAKS 2019. The airshow that closed on September 1 saw Indian test pilots Group Captain BS Reddy and Wing Commander FL Roy taking seats in a MiG-35D two-seater for type familiarization flights.

India’s national delegation was led by Director General of Air Operations Air Marshal Amit Dev, who visited Russia to learn more about yet another export version of the MiG-35 that was unveiled at the show. Russia is expected to offer it in the ongoing competition for 110 medium fighters for the Indian air force.

According to Tarasenko, the new version features further-refined geometry of the airframe, uprated Klimov RD-33MK engines with thrust at full afterburner of nine tonnes, an advanced electro-optical reconnaissance system, and an active-array (AESA) radar capable of tracking up to 30 targets simultaneously. Additionally, RAC MiG’s press release also mentions “renewed mission equipment” and “other improvements made to meet the requirements of potential foreign customers."

It is also worth mentioning that a flyable example of the aircraft that was demonstrated to President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan of Turkey on the show’s opening day had new air-launched munitions on its weapons stations, including the Grom-E2 glide bomb and the 600-kg (1,232-pound) Vympel R-37, also known as RVV-BD, the Russian acronym for “air-to-air missile, long-range.” Although the possibility of the MiG-35 being outfitted with the 300-km (162-nm) R-37 was first mentioned a couple of years ago, MAKS 2019 was the first time that the aircraft had been displayed with this weapon.

The MiG-35 full-scale mockup at MAKS 2019 featured a new head-up display with extra-wide field of view, part of a new mission equipment suite from Ramenskoye PKB. The latter is described as “a generation ahead” of that in use on the MiG-29K/KUB deck fighter and its land-based MiG-29M/M2 derivative in service with the Indian Navy and Egyptian air force, respectively. The mockup also exhibited taller, more upright vertical tails that had hitherto only been seen on a small model.

Speaking to journalists on the eve of the show, Tarasenko acknowledged “issues” with the low operational availability of the Indian Navy’s MiGs, but insisted that the aircraft “fully meets the original specification” demanded by the customer at the program launch 15 years ago. The aforementioned issues arose during operational service after the guaranteed lifetime had expired, he noted.

Tarasenko further said that Russian industry has been working closely with India to resolve the issues and introduce changes to the MiG-29K/KUB fleet, amounting to 45 units, so it meets “a recent version of the customer requirements for deck aircraft intended for operation from the Indian navy carriers." RAC MiG hopes to win a new Indian Navy order if the earlier announced tender for 57 deck fighters proceeds. They would equip the navy’s new carrier, Vishal, construction of which is yet to start.


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 10 Sep 2019 05:38

So called MiG-35 demonstrator, but not the one with the AESA radar on board. Nevertheless, representative of the airframe and possibly even the engines, 2 uprated RD-33MK with 90 kN thrust each. Very impressive agility no question. Should be easy for pilots thanks to the digital FBW that was introduced with the MiG-29K.


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 10 Sep 2019 18:38

Tarasenko acknowledged “issues” with the low operational availability of the Indian Navy’s MiGs, but insisted that the aircraft “fully meets the original specification” demanded by the customer at the program launch 15 years ago. The aforementioned issues arose during operational service after the guaranteed lifetime had expired, he noted.


In other words the cheap upfront price of the MIG29/35 is for initial limited years of flying only. If you demand more long time "operational availability as original specification" the price increase in the fly-away cost would be what?

At least 1.5 to 2 times.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 10 Sep 2019 18:44

So besides the smallish order from Russia?, has anyone else taken up the "new" MiG-35? or the old MiG-35?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Bart S » 10 Sep 2019 19:06

Japan is apparently looking to offload many of it's F-15J to fund F-35 purchases. What are the chances and feasibility of India buying them (with some kind of refurbishment and modern avionics upgrades) to fill in gaps in squadron strength? The F-15 is an amazing platform and even older ones can be upgraded to be extremely potent, as the Israelis have demonstrated.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Sep 2019 20:01

^^while potent, i doubt that for khan stuff due to following reasons
1. sanctions
2. ecosystem: although comcasa helps, not sure how much of it has been or would be operationalized with tip of spear stuff
3. heavy of IAF are aalready done with su 30 mkaais
4. IAF wants rafale only..

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 10 Sep 2019 21:09

Noob question - why the centre line fuel tank.. even for an air show demo?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Sep 2019 22:07

126 Mig 35s for the advancement of Kaveri Program

For the advancement of Kaveri Program here is a suggestion of making a Govt. to Govt. deal with Russia:

We order 126 Mig 35s from Russian Govt. in a GOVT. to GOVT. DEAL

That these Mig 35s be manufactured in Russia itself but

a.)
i) Mig Corporation has to replace RD 33 Klimov Engines with GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri Engine.
ii) As OFFSET DEAL Russian Govt. sets up a Kaveri plant in Bharat with improvements and corrections so Kaveri engine gives same availability + engine life as Su 30 MKI engines.

b.) Also Incorporate Bharat's Uttam AESA Radar into Mig 35

c.) Bharat's IRST for Mig 35

d.) Also Indigenous Jamming pods and Litening pods in this airframe.

e.) That all the source codes of Mig 35s be handed to us so we can equip it with our own Air to Air and Air to Ground Ordinance.

f.) Russian Govt. makes a joint set up for maintenance depot with IAF's "Base Repair Depot" for guarenteed 75% availability of these jets. Hardcore contract with PENALTIES like Talwar Frigates delay.

This will be a win win scenario for both the nations as order starved Mig Corp. gets a new lease of life. And we get an actually working Kaveri Engine.

_______________________________________
RD 33 ENGINE :
Length: 4,229 mm (166.50 in)
Diameter: 1,040 mm (40.94 in)
Dry weight: 1,055 kg (2,326 lb)

Dry Thrust: 50.0 kN (11,230 lbf),
Afterburner: 81.3 kN (18,285 lbf) afterburning.
________________________________________
Kaveri Engine :
Length: 3,490.0 mm (137.4 in)
Diameter: 909.3 mm (35.8 in)
Dry weight: 1,236 kg (2,724 lb)

Dry Thrust: 52 kN (11,687 lbf)
Afterburner: 81 kN (18,210 lbf)
________________________________________



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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 10 Sep 2019 23:13

brar_w wrote:So besides the smallish order from Russia?, has anyone else taken up the "new" MiG-35? or the old MiG-35?


Forl the "old" MiG-35 which was essentially similar to the MiG-29M2, there were some orders. The Egyptians, with their MiG-29M2 are the closest any export customer has gotten to buying the MiG-35. and now the Algerians are supposed to have signed up for 14 MiG-29M/M2s. Malaysians are in discussions and have been offered a buy back option for the MiG-29Ns and a discount on new MiG-35s bought to replace those MiG-29Ns.

link

But there is no solid roadmap for MiG-35 capabilities or product support down the line. Unless the token Russian orders are replaced with big investments and a guarantee to have the MiG-35 as a widely deployed VVS frontline combat jet for the next 40 years, there will continue to be the types of issues that the Indian Navy is experiencing with the MiG-29K.
Last edited by Kartik on 10 Sep 2019 23:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 10 Sep 2019 23:21

Bart S wrote:Japan is apparently looking to offload many of it's F-15J to fund F-35 purchases. What are the chances and feasibility of India buying them (with some kind of refurbishment and modern avionics upgrades) to fill in gaps in squadron strength? The F-15 is an amazing platform and even older ones can be upgraded to be extremely potent, as the Israelis have demonstrated.


The chances are nil.

We have no experience operating the type. They are not new airframes with enough life left in them to justify introducing a new type into service, that too second hand. The costs involved with setting up the infrastructure to support these jets, train the personnel and set up a spares supply are not small. There is no similarity with any existing type in IAF service either, spares or engine wise. Simply put, even if the cost of buying these is less, introducing them into service and getting them to a point where the IAF can operate these, will cost a lot and take enormous effort.

Japan will have a tough time finding a buyer for these jets, given how small the international F-15 operator base is. Only Israel and Saudi Arabia apart from the USAF are other F-15 operators. And the Saudis have spent a fortune on upgrades to their existing F-15S fleet and on buying the new F-15SA. No reason they'd want these unless they see it as a cheap way to increase their fleet size. Israel might, just might be interested but why bother spending your own money when the US will let you buy F-15s on their own dime?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 10 Sep 2019 23:25

Why would anyone want to operate F-15's when you already have Su-30's and are getting Rafales? What is the huge advantage could you get from it that offsets the problems of adding yet another type to the zoo?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 11 Sep 2019 00:10

There were a couple of AV reports by enthusiasts speculating if India can buy F-15 from Japan. This came after Rajnath Singh visited a base and inspected an F15 jet and also boarded it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 11 Sep 2019 00:30

Thankfully enthusiasts don't run the IAF. Not saying they don't have their own crazy ideas (like buying F-16's from LM). But none as crazy as buying used F-15's from Japan.

As for Rajnath, I am 50% sure he remembers the aircraft he boarded as the British Mirage-15. :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Sep 2019 01:10

Over the years on BRF right from buying 500 retiring F16A/Bs in 99-01 era to these F15 to buying swarms of Mig 35 I have seen huge fans think of India buying it's way to greatness. They always talk of magic TOTs or purchases . I don't where is come from to some weird logic like customer is always right like defense equipment is some shoe brand comes from etc. But I doubt India is going is win any significant war with majority foreign equipment. We will never have the numbers required , it will like Su7 raids on Shor kot road in 1971, successful but had to be stopped since there only 3 sets of drop tanks and could never take raids with enough number of aircraft like what we did to the Dhaka airfield.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Bart S » 11 Sep 2019 01:15

nachiket wrote:Why would anyone want to operate F-15's when you already have Su-30's and are getting Rafales? What is the huge advantage could you get from it that offsets the problems of adding yet another type to the zoo?


Well, if there is talk of buying Mig 29/35s and/or F16/F18, this might be a viable buy instead of those. Su-30s have had issues and the F15 has a cutting edge sensor and weapons ecosystem that we could tap into. It has a much greater un-refuelled range that either the Mig or the F-teens, which might come in useful in the absence of investment in enough refuelling platforms. Besides these can probably be made available at short notice.

Anyway, this is all hypothetical and possibly moot.

If IAF can stick to existing Su-30s + some new Rafales as the extent of the imported maal and look towards the LCA variants for the rest, that would be ideal.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2019 01:26

Nachiket is correct. The logistical headache of adding yet another type to the zoo is not worth it.

Su-30s (Russian maal) will always have problems. Just comes with the territory when we get Russian maal. Hopefully with better engines (AL-41F), better sensors and radar in the future (Super Sukhoi upgrade)....it should hopefully - the key word being hopefully! - get better. Karan will be able to provide a better picture on the Super Sukhoi upgrade and where it stands now.

The future regardless is going to be the Su-30MKI, Rafale, Tejas and AMCA (post 2035 when the MiG-21s, 27s & 29s, Jaguars and Mirage 2000s will have all retired). The zoo has got to go. Read this ET article below. Saurav Jha alluded to this - in a tweet - a couple of years back. Apart from the US (who make the best tech), the French are the next best bet for India. But unlike the US, way safer. From India's perspective, working with the French is a good way to get access to some pretty good western technology.

And if there is anything the French have proved to India, is that a nation can have a robust and state-of-the-art MIC, that is independent of the US. You just have to have the vision and be willing to cough up the dough for R&D. Obviously, they cannot (and will likely never) match US industrial output, but that is a moot point. The French pay a *HEFTY* premium for this independence (i.e. boutique weaponry), but heck at least they ain't no poodle like the UK. And that is a fact not lost on India, in the age of Donald Trump.

Read the part about climate change and think about how the Prime Minister is deeply involved in India getting access to clean energy technology. Now compare that with the stable genius in the White House (The Leader of the Free World) who believes that climate change is a hoax. One can criticize Donald Trump on a variety of issues, but he has turned out to be a big boon for India. America First and Make America Great Again is not a good way to partner with India or the rest of the world. India has realized that. The future lies in partnerships and not in isolationist policies espoused by Donald Trump.

Could France be the new Russia for India?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 988568.cms

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 11 Sep 2019 03:01

nachiket wrote:Why would anyone want to operate F-15's when you already have Su-30's and are getting Rafales? What is the huge advantage could you get from it that offsets the problems of adding yet another type to the zoo?

Not going to happen.

Having said that, a fantasy would be to pick up a handful for a TADCE aggressor squadron zoo :twisted: Something like 8 each of F-16, F-15 etc.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2019 14:35

France can be a reliable supplier of advanced hardware across the board , but it comes at huge cost when compared with equiv. Ru wares. We have to be selective in choosing French wares for items far superior to others and at reasonable cost.Missiles, aero- engines, sub tech, and aircraft and aerospace tech are what we're currently obtaining. A host of French cos. are involved in supplyinv key cimponents for many of our mil. and civil programmes. JV programmes similar to BMos, etc. for idrntified items is the best way to spur desi production, acquire advsnced tech keep costs affordable, plus develop a support chain for the same.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashbhee » 15 Sep 2019 20:14

Manish_Sharma wrote:126 Mig 35s for the advancement of Kaveri Program

This sounds great on paper but I doubt Russians will agree to this. Even if they do, they will back track or demand extra money like they did sale / upgraduation of Admiral Gorshkov

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2019 03:01

India-US: Important defence deals are expected to be announced next week
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... k/1710230/

US and India’s strategic relationship is going to get to the next level even though Russian deals have been signed in the last year including a contract on the S400 deal. “If there has to be a lasting Defence relationship with US many in the US Administration and Congress feel the fighter aircraft program is the only large commitment that can balance the influence of Russians on New Delhi,” said sources. It is expected that when Prime Minister Narendra Modi meets with the US President Donald Trump issues related to military sales will be on the table for discussion when he visits that country from Sept 21-27.

Aerospace

US aerospace company Lockheed Martin earlier this year had unveiled an India unique platform the F21 for the fighter requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF) earlier this year at the Aero-India. This company is also the only one in the world which has operational fifth-generation aircraft like the F22 and F35. During the visit, it is likely that an announcement related to Lockheed Martin’s $2 billion 24 MH-60R anti submarine helicopters for the Indian Navy could be made.

Dr Vivek Lall, Vice President, Strategy and Business Development, Lockheed Martin, had in an earlier interaction had mentioned that the F-21 has been tailored to meet the IAF requirements and is the only fighter in the world which will come with both probe/drogue. Also, it will have a boom aerial fuelling capability. He had also said that other changes which are specific to India included an advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) system.

Also, the Boeing Company has offered to set up a production line if India places an order for the F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet fighters for the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy. Top Boeing officials in an earlier interaction had said that the US Navy has made huge investments in the Block III, F/A-18 Super Hornet which is the most advanced fighter India could locally manufacture and this will help in the AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft). The Boeing Company has offered F/A 18 Super Hornet for the Indian Air Force requirement of 114 aircraft and Indian Navy’s planned acquisition of 57 multi-role carrier-borne fighters for its aircraft carrier.


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