MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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ashbhee
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashbhee » 24 Sep 2019 04:31

So are we buying 36 more Rafales as Govt to Govt deal as some of the youtubers are reporting?
If there is any chance that Rafale is going to considered for 114 MMRCA, then does it not make sense to order 114 Make in India + 36 more made in France as once single package for better terms?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 24 Sep 2019 04:33

ashbhee wrote:So are we buying 36 more Rafales as Govt to Govt deal as some of the youtubers are reporting?


I think there is something going on to that end but if it's on youtube then it must be... :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2019 04:49

:lol:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashbhee » 24 Sep 2019 07:08

brar_w wrote:
ashbhee wrote:So are we buying 36 more Rafales as Govt to Govt deal as some of the youtubers are reporting?


I think there is something going on to that end but if it's on youtube then it must be... :rotfl:


I am not suggesting since it is YouTube it must be true, I am asking if any of you have any info on the rumor and if it has any truth to it, isn't it better to package it with MRCA.

I have noticed quite a few of you get tremendous pleasure by pulling each other down.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2019 10:45

ashbhee wrote:So are we buying 36 more Rafales as Govt to Govt deal as some of the youtubers are reporting?
If there is any chance that Rafale is going to considered for 114 MMRCA, then does it not make sense to order 114 Make in India + 36 more made in France as once single package for better terms?


No firm news yet. The Youtubers are going off the same source the other social media guys are going off on, and what's worse is the newsmedia guys are quoting the social media chaps.. so while there may be some truth to the matter, hard to predict, hard to tell, especially given the funding challenges the GOI is facing.

Regarding the leg pulling not to take it seriously onlee..your question was fair.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2019 03:00

My oh my....look who is pushing for F-16s for the Indian Air Force. The same guy who wrote that the Tejas Mk2 should be cancelled and India should focus all her efforts on the AMCA. We have heard that line before and also from posters on BRF.

Click on the link below and keep reading the twitter thread. Do not stop after the first and second tweet. It gets interesting from tweet #3.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1164392499600691201

Tejas Mk2 is a real danger to LM setting up shop in India. Wow, I never knew a plane still on the drawing board...will cause this much takleef to Lockheed Martin and Boeing India.

And oh yes, also advocating to cancel the S-400 deal. This is the level of defense journalism in India. Pathetic.

Someone recommend this man for a Padma Vibhushan for his contributions to the Indian Air Force! He cannot get a military medal after all!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Indranil » 26 Sep 2019 03:14

Tejas Mk2 acquired in 2025 would be obscolescent soon. F-16/21 acquired in 2025 will be not. Very transparent only!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby SaiK » 26 Sep 2019 06:03

How dare India make MWF when F-16/21 can do the same?
-Greta Thunberg :)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Sep 2019 07:41

Rakesh wrote:
My oh my....look who is pushing for F-16s for the Indian Air Force. The same guy who wrote that the Tejas Mk2 should be cancelled and India should focus all her efforts on the AMCA. We have heard that line before and also from posters on BRF.

Click on the link below and keep reading the twitter thread. Do not stop after the first and second tweet. It gets interesting from tweet #3.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1164392499600691201



ChampakBhumia e Kashmir
@ChampakbhumiaE
·
21m
Tejas Mk2 acquired in 2025 would be obscolescent soon. F-16/21 acquired in 2025 will be not. Very TRANSPARENT
Quote Tweet

Yusuf Unjhawala
@YusufDFI
· Aug 22
If not, then again don’t look for a tender. Do an FMS with the US which can deliver fighter jets which are cheaper and more importantly, at a very fast pace of delivery. LM was ready to delivery 3-4 F-16s a month. And the added benefit of enhancing strategic ties with the US. 3/3
Show this thread
Yusuf Unjhawala
@YusufDFI
Replying to
@ChampakbhumiaE
You didn’t scroll further down the thread to find this or you didn’t want to?
Quote Tweet

Yusuf Unjhawala
@YusufDFI
· Aug 22

My opinion though is this :
https://twitter.com/yusufdfi/status/113 ... 75425?s=21


https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 11840?s=20

ChampakBhumia e Kashmir
@ChampakbhumiaE
So Now you are saying India cancels Tejas2, S400 and get F35 assembly Line, tomorrow if I scroll down I will find u writing "since India will be getting f 35 line so should cancel AMCA too alongside Tejas & S400 as F35 Line does away need for AMCA" :roll:


ChampakBhumia e Kashmir
@ChampakbhumiaE
·
44s
So Tejas2 & S400 CANCELED for hmmmm not f16 but F35 & its assembly line, then when AMCA IS DEVELOPED with its proven tech Tejas mk.1B & Tejas mk.1C is developed 2 b exported. That's clever since f35 assembly is here then why develop AMCA put that into 6th Generation platform.
Quote Tweet

Yusuf Unjhawala
@YusufDFI
· 22m
Nope,there was nothing further to scroll. My submission was clear. Continue Mk1A.But invest in AMCA now. In fact tech developed for AMCA will be useful to develop a 1B & 1C perhaps.We will have a potent export platform after our orders are completed or if we have spare capacity https://twitter.com/champakbhumiae/stat ... 4155811840

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby LakshmanPST » 26 Sep 2019 18:47

Even Abhijeet Iyer Mithra, who routinely criticizes Su30MKI and Tejas, also wrote an article on The Print not too long ago pushing for F16...
-
Sad part is, many of those articles are shared widely by Aam-jingos, coz. these ppl have good credibility...

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 Oct 2019 02:52

SAAB wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production
https://theprint.in/defence/saab-wants- ... on/298778/

In an interview to ThePrint, SAAB India CMD Ola Rignell highlights efficiency of Gripen, its offer to India, & the issues around its sales to Pakistan.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 01 Oct 2019 03:12

Is this the same Gripen E/F they were offering us during the original MMRCA, you know more than a decade before its first test flight in 2017? Unbelievable chutzpah from the Swedes back then I must say. It would be like Boeing/MD offering the Super Hornet for sale to a foreign country in 1985 :lol: .

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 Oct 2019 03:51

The Gripen NG was offered in the original MMRCA contest. The Gripen E is the production version of the Gripen NG.

After reading Group Captain MJA Vinod's interview on the Mirage 2000 (where he wishes the M2k had a second engine), it looks like MMRCA 3.0 is going to end up being a twin engine bird.

All the hushkit interviews of IAF pilots state one thing - a twin engine aircraft is definitely more powerful. I just re-read the Su-30MKI interview. The Group Captain wants to adopt the plane!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 01 Oct 2019 04:01

Rakesh wrote:The Gripen NG was offered in the original MMRCA contest. The Gripen E is the production version of the Gripen NG.

So it took them 10+ years to productionize it? The 2017 flight was the first test flight of the E mind you. In other words they were selling us a paper plane. The IAF evaluators seem to have understood this and rejected it during the technical eval. Now the paper-plane peddlers are back.


After reading Group Captain MJA Vinod's interview on the Mirage 2000 (where he wishes the M2k had a second engine), it looks like MMRCA 3.0 is going to end up being a twin engine bird.

All the hushkit interviews of IAF pilots state one thing - a twin engine aircraft is definitely more powerful. I just re-read the Su-30MKI interview. The Group Captain wants to adopt the plane!

Jaguar pilots would beg to differ :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 01 Oct 2019 04:03

LOL on the Jaguar. Good one.

And you are spot on about the Gripen. And FOC for Gripen E is in 2025! And when you have Tejas Mk2, there is no need for Gripen E

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ashbhee » 01 Oct 2019 04:14

Rakesh wrote:LOL on the Jaguar. Good one.

And you are spot on about the Gripen. And FOC for Gripen E is in 2025! And when you have Tejas Mk2, there is no need for Gripen E


We should also ask Swedes to take a hike for making ambiguous statements on Kashmir.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Shekhar Singh » 01 Oct 2019 13:31

Is there any chance for F21 winning MMRCA2?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Austin » 01 Oct 2019 13:55

Shekhar Singh wrote:Is there any chance for F21 winning MMRCA2?


Yes why not , A single engine fighter is low on maintenace and F-16 are proven platform , like a quick buy for squadron strength.

Which ever they buy will be IAF and Political decision.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Oct 2019 13:58

Shekhar Singh wrote:Is there any chance for F21 winning MMRCA2?


With Weapons, PBL contracts, training thats a USD 11 Billion + another USD 15 Billion = USD 26 Billion dollar question. To most it makes no sense to go a completely new type of 4-4.5 Gen all metal fighter whose home country has stopped investing in which we can start inducting only in 2025-26. Money if invested in Tejas MK1, 1A or MWF which would make much better sense. But who knows as the Official IAF has kept repeating the requirement for 114 MRCA's.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby VikramA » 01 Oct 2019 14:18

Aditya_V wrote:
Shekhar Singh wrote:Is there any chance for F21 winning MMRCA2?


With Weapons, PBL contracts, training thats a USD 11 Billion + another USD 15 Billion = USD 26 Billion dollar question. To most it makes no sense to go a completely new type of 4-4.5 Gen all metal fighter whose home country has stopped investing in which we can start inducting only in 2025-26. Money if invested in Tejas MK1, 1A or MWF which would make much better sense. But who knows as the Official IAF has kept repeating the requirement for 114 MRCA's.


Interesting , USD 26 million is the trade surplus with US that india has, that trump keeps ranting about. Perhaps pressure is being put on india to shut down the 83 mk1A buy and instead buy the f-21( both will have the same delivery time line) and then buy the 100 mk 2 MWF in 2025 when it completes designing for a total of approx 200 single engine fighter.
Both f-21 and mk2 MWF will I believe share the same engine

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 01 Oct 2019 17:03

SAAB have reportedly offered full TOT for the Gripen at half the price of the Rafale. This is a serious card thrown onto the table which the GOI cannot but take seriously.We will I suppose now have MIG undercut SAAB for the 35! There is little point in considering either of the two Yanqui birds, the design rather long in the tooth.

We are yet again making the mistake in allowing both SE and ME fighters in the same contest where are some are
.How can you compare or have an SU-35 compete with a Gripen?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 01 Oct 2019 19:33

Something is seriously wrong here, no defense equipment that is bidding fiercely for a contract with 6 other parties would have more then 100% margins to be able to offer such a massive discount and top that with deep TOT as well. This is highly suspect and i think a desperate move to stall the MMRCA or to torpedo the Tejas 2 which is similar to Gripen.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Oct 2019 19:40

^^saab's move is like acid thrower or paki vest mindset..i dont think they are serious about it...if the contract happens..ancillary items will be outrageously priced..sweden is not khan to have deep pockets or political agenda to offer such deep discounts..

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 01 Oct 2019 19:44

There is only so much money to go around. If the 114 MMRCA 2.0 goes through, MWF is dead in the water. The disaster MMRCA 1.0 that was was actually a lifeline for LCA Mk.1. Had 126 Mirage-2000 or Rafale come sooner, no LCA Mk.1.

Aditya_V wrote:
Shekhar Singh wrote:Is there any chance for F21 winning MMRCA2?


With Weapons, PBL contracts, training thats a USD 11 Billion + another USD 15 Billion = USD 26 Billion dollar question. To most it makes no sense to go a completely new type of 4-4.5 Gen all metal fighter whose home country has stopped investing in which we can start inducting only in 2025-26. Money if invested in Tejas MK1, 1A or MWF which would make much better sense. But who knows as the Official IAF has kept repeating the requirement for 114 MRCA's.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Oct 2019 23:21

SAAB relizes MWF is a competitor but based on MK1A contract fiasco they think that IAF/MOD benchmark price of LCA with Gripen. So why not offer Gripen E at such slow benchmark price that HAL can never produce it at.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 02 Oct 2019 00:48

Anything and everything that Saab says or claims should be treated as highly suspect at this stage considering the charlatanism they engaged in during the previous MMRCA. As for the F-21, renaming the aircraft isn't going to change what it is. An old design at the absolute end or perhaps already beyond its development potential. Same with the Mig-35.

This entire 114 aircraft deal needs to die a swift death. It would be sheer insanity to add yet another type to the IAF at this point. Better to add 2 more rafale squadrons along with more MKI's and Mig-29's to tide us over till the MWF is available.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 02 Oct 2019 02:55

One must remember that we've bought just 36 Raffys for the princely sum of $8B+! That works out to over $200M a pop, not including weaponry. Assuming that infra costs, etc. are not repeated, even a 25% drop in price per bird works out to $150M a pop. Prices being bandied around for contestants are as follows:

LCA $40/45M as the benchmark agreed upon by HAL and the MOD.
$40/45M for a MIG-35.
$70-80M for F-16/21s and F-18SHs.
$90-100M for Typhoons.
$55-65M for SU-35s.

The Gripen priced at around $65-70M would be half the price of a Rafale with full TOT thrown in as a bonus.Another batch of only 36 Rafales would cost us at least $5-6B, compared with 110+ Gripens plus TOT and infra. for local production unlike the Raffy.

The IAF is heavily hung up on wanting another western fighter in addition to the Rafale.Russian wares come second and desi Tejas third.The winner is going to be the local partner with the most political muscle, unlike the Rafale decision ,Raffy being the lowest price of the two finalists ( though contested by some as smart calculations with the EF supposedly cheaper) Look at how swiftly HSL are tying up with Adani for the 75-I sub tender.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2019 02:58

nachiket wrote:So it took them 10+ years to productionize it? The 2017 flight was the first test flight of the E mind you. In other words they were selling us a paper plane. The IAF evaluators seem to have understood this and rejected it during the technical eval. Now the paper-plane peddlers are back.


The problem for Saab was that they didn't have a customer initially and was just a company funded program. And even with the Gripen NG demonstrator, the real work only started after Sweden signed on and then Brazil was signed on as the first export customer.

They haven't set a blistering pace in terms of development and testing, but TBH, they have a somewhat more complex program, having to take into account Brazilian requirements and training of Brazilian engineers as part of the offsets for the program.

But the Gripen E is certainly not a paper plane. It will reach IOC next year with deliveries beginning early next year I believe.

Our main issue with the Gripen E is that it is nearly analogous to the MWF and hence will compete directly with MWF orders. If that weren't the case, the Gripen E would've been one a good fit, keeping aside the fact that Sweden is a strategic lightweight.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 02 Oct 2019 03:00

Philip, please stop lying. The cost of the Rafale deal includes weapons.

Neither will you get a MiG-35 for $40 - 45 million. The $70 - $80 million for F-21 and F-18 is laughable. And the Su-35 estimate is also low.

Shopping at bargain thrift stores, are we?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby vishvak » 02 Oct 2019 03:16

OT just want to know the total weight of analog systems in MiG 27 just for the record.

Just also to check if its engine had any digital parts.
Last edited by vishvak on 02 Oct 2019 03:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 02 Oct 2019 03:19

nachiket wrote:Anything and everything that Saab says or claims should be treated as highly suspect at this stage considering the charlatanism they engaged in during the previous MMRCA.


You are absolutely forgetting the silly excuse they gave and cited the tough contract conditions mandated by GOI while withdrawing from the Project 75I submarine tender. This happened just a couple of days back and now they are making this offer.I am convinced their main aim is to scupper the MWF or muddy the waters for Rafale as they are going to get another contract from IAF.

SAAB is absolutely not trust worthy and they do not even have control on the supply of engines powering their bird so their offer should not be treated any more seriously then the other competitors.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2019 03:36

Aditya_V wrote:SAAB relizes MWF is a competitor but based on MK1A contract fiasco they think that IAF/MOD benchmark price of LCA with Gripen. So why not offer Gripen E at such slow benchmark price that HAL can never produce it at.


makes no sense whatsoever. Saab is a company in the business of making profits, not making losses. Why would they offer the Gripen E at a low price that even HAL could not match? And where did you find the price the Gripen E is being offered at? "Half of Rafale" price is what Ola Rignell said looking at the 36 Rafale order, which included a bunch of non-recurring one time costs and comparing it to the Brazilian order for 36 Gripen E, which also included a bunch of non-recurring one time costs.

MWF has a pretty secure place IF ADA and HAL can deliver on some sort of a schedule. If not, the IAF will try to fill up that gap with the MRCA that gets chosen.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nachiket » 02 Oct 2019 03:45

Kartik wrote:The problem for Saab was that they didn't have a customer initially and was just a company funded program. And even with the Gripen NG demonstrator, the real work only started after Sweden signed on and then Brazil was signed on as the first export customer.

They haven't set a blistering pace in terms of development and testing, but TBH, they have a somewhat more complex program, having to take into account Brazilian requirements and training of Brazilian engineers as part of the offsets for the program.

But the Gripen E is certainly not a paper plane. It will reach IOC next year with deliveries beginning early next year I believe.

Our main issue with the Gripen E is that it is nearly analogous to the MWF and hence will compete directly with MWF orders. If that weren't the case, the Gripen E would've been one a good fit, keeping aside the fact that Sweden is a strategic lightweight.

It may not be a paper plane now, but I called them paper plane peddlers based on their offer more than a decade ago. IAF MRCA evals happened in the mid-2000's. It certainly was a paper plane then. Their issues with being a company funded program with no customer are not our fault. What they were planning I guess is to finance the development of the E using our money as part of the MRCA contract had they won it. I refuse to believe for an instant they could have started deliveries within 36 months after contract signing either had the MRCA concluded when it was supposed to considering how long it has taken the Gripen E to reach IOC. Every other aircraft on offer barring the Mig-35 perhaps was more or less a mature product with some India specific enhancements.

That is why I consider them untrustworthy. We should stay as far away from Saab as possible.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2019 04:09

Shekhar Singh wrote:Is there any chance for F21 winning MMRCA2?


It depends on how the tender is structured. If, like MRCA 1.0, the IAF ignores the cost and only analyzes the capabilities (which will be a mistake IMO), then IMO, the order of the contenders will be -

1) Rafale
2) Super Hornet
3) Typhoon
4) Gripen E/F-21
5) MiG-35

Su-35 may not qualify if they cannot offer it with an AESA radar. But this will bring us to a similar situation as the MRCA 1.0 where the costs will be so prohibitively expensive that the signing of the contract will keep dragging on.

If cost IS Considered before the final 2 are shortlisted, then I believe that the F-21 and Gripen E stand a good chance. It all depends on what the evaluation matrix takes into account. Ideally cost should be included in the evaluation, since it is a big factor in the decision.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby rajsunder » 02 Oct 2019 05:22

Picking Gripen for MARCA 2.0 is like tying oneself with a ton of weight and jumping in to marina trench and hoping to surive.
IAF made a mistake picking swiss pilatus trainer which was a mess of systems from various countries. IAF was burdened to negotiate service agreements with every company, whose parts were used in pilatus trainer. Do we want a repeat of that mess?

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2019 05:43

That’s not true at all. The Gripen E has systems from multiple companies but that doesn’t mean that the IAF signs agreements with them all separately. Saab is the integrator and the OEM as far as the package goes. They will need to do all the negotiating with their own suppliers for assembly within India if they are selected. GE already has support via the Tejas and for other avionics, the negotiations will need to be done by Saab and it’s Indian partner.

Pilatus example is wrong. The IAF did not sign a maintenance agreement with Pilatus and consequently after the blacklisting of Pilatus, the systems that were sourced by them from different suppliers needed to be negotiated separately for spares support.

Gripen E will be a good aircraft no doubt about it. But the biggest reasons for not going for it is that it is too similar to the MWF and will likely eat into MWF orders. And secondly there is little to gain via giving such a big deal to Sweden politically.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Indranil » 02 Oct 2019 06:03

I just hope that this contest dies a slow death. We have the ability to produce Mk1As till MWF arrives, and MWFs till AMCA arrives.


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manu » 03 Oct 2019 02:42

rajsunder wrote:Picking Gripen for MARCA 2.0 is like tying oneself with a ton of weight and jumping in to marina trench and hoping to surive.


Besides we should deliver a message by stringing them along and eventually dumping them :)
The role the Swedes have played post Art. 370 was not a positive one, to put it lightly.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Oct 2019 03:18

Philip wrote:


$70-80M for F-16/21s and F-18SHs.



Last f 16 deal with saudi put 145 million for each fighter price


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