MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Kartik
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kartik »

Since some people here are insisting that F-35 must be bought for the MRCA, here is an article that'll whet their appetite even more..:D

LM is looking for a developing nation that could take up large chunks of manufacturing work at cheaper labor costs and thus drive down the cost of the F-35 and increase the profit margins for LM. Now all that is needed is to convince the IAF to ask for F-35 and start charming Trump to give another waiver for India to keep the S-400 AND the F-35. Erdogan will get a heart attack if that happens (which is very very unlikely) but will certainly give a new surge to the discussions here.

Of course, forget ToT and other major offsets work, since LM doesn't offer those as part of F-35 programs. Brar would be able to enlighten us more on what can be offered instead. Would a 114 unit order be large enough to allow for a new F-35 FACO assembly line to be set up in India?

As far as I'm concerned, this would be just an academic discussion, given that it is very unlikely to come true.

F-35 profitability could suffer after losing cheap manufacturing in Turkey
By Garrett Reim, Orlando, Florida28 February 2020

The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II’s profitability could suffer due to the programme losing access to less expensive parts suppliers in Turkey.

Ankara was booted from the Joint Strike Fighter programme in July 2019 after the country decided to buy the Russian-made Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile battery. That weapon system is advertised as being anti-stealth, a capability the US Department of Defense takes seriously and wants the F-35 to avoid.

Removing Turkey from the supply chain of the F-35 has consequences, however. As the only developing country in the Joint Strike Fighter programme, Turkey’s lower cost labour was relied upon to bring the cost of the fighter down.

Turkish industrial participation in the F-35 programme included 10 companies which received more than $1 billion worth of contracts to supply more than 900 parts. The country’s manufacturing base was projected to receive up to $12 billion in F-35 work over the life of the programme, according to Lockheed Martin.

The USA pledged to spend $500 to $600 million in non-recurring engineering to quickly redirect that work to new suppliers by March 2020.

..

Lockheed Martin and the US government have found new suppliers for all of the parts formerly produced by Turkish companies, says Greg Ulmer, vice-president of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 programme, at the Air Force Association Air Warfare Symposium conference on 28 February

“There are many cases where we just went back to a previous or the original supplier,” he says, noting Dutch company Fokker Emo’s electrical wiring work is being returned to the Netherlands.

Ulmer acknowledges the process of repatriating work to more expensive regions could hurt the F-35’s profit margins.

..

Bringing Ankara back into the F-35 programme would require rebuilding the supply chain, says Ulmer.

“Politics aside, if we reintroduced Turkey it would essentially be a restart,” he says. “There are probably elements that are pretty simple, and elements that are very difficult.”

Lockheed Martin appears to be on the hunt for a replacement country for Turkey.

“Now, going forward there’ll be new opportunities,” says Ulmer. “Poland, for example, I think we’re going to find could provide high quality and lower [production] costs.”


..
brar_w
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

Israel and Poland are already there and in place to help offset the Turkish work. Israel is getting ready to order more F-35's and that will have an industrial work component as well as their industry is already involved. Also, Lockheed is currently negotiating the next major multi-year contract for the F-35's and the first 5-year PBL with the US DOD customers so a lot of this is also them posturing. Any F-35 deal with the MOD will have to be Government to Government. Lockheed has little say in this. I don't see that happening unless a number of other things happen politically. The current layout of the Congress really offers no incentive for Lockheed to lobby for concessions with foreign sales (this explains why they did little once Turkey was removed from the program). For the next half a decade at least they are more focused on winning the 3-4 competitions they are currently in and delivering on those FRP multi-year contracts that are going to be negotiated over the next couple of years. Over the next 5 or so years they would have delivered 1000 F-35's already and that would really bring the focus to the long term aspects and then it will probably be right for them to begin working with the US Congess to see how they can relax some of the initial restrictions placed on the program at its inception. I expect the DCS options being opened up in the 2024-2026 time-frame with ME customers...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/123 ... 88224?s=20 ----> I don't care what arms imports have to be cancelled, but New Delhi must find the money to fund:

1. Next-generation battery manufacturing capacity.
2. At least one major commercial Semifab
3. At least one fighter class 110-120 KN low-bypass turbofan

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/123 ... 26912?s=20 ---> The biggest mistake being made by New Delhi is the prioritization of a security relationship with the United States over an economic one. It should be the other way round. Any arms imports should be linked to credible movement on trade & investment.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/123 ... 03265?s=20 ---> Because of the dalals, some people are constantly being bombarded with the notion that xyz country is doing *us* a favour by selling its uber expensive weapons. Also, they are being misled into thinking that gadzillion dollar import from xyz = automatically enhanced security.
Philip
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Philip »

Speaking to one in the know of things, waiting fir orders ,the govt. has nomoney.It's v.happy for pvt. industry to develop desi weapon systems ( at their cost), but are unwilling to guarantee any orders afterwards! No moolah,no toys. With the economy in crisis,ascerbated by the global meltdown due to the China- virus, EVERY sector of the economy is going to take massivd hits. We are perilously unprepared for a nation-wide epidemic and the battle to defeat the virus from spreading scross the country is far greater than Pak at the moment.An emergency meeting of all state and central health authorities is required as of yesterday and quarantine outfits fully equipped should be set up in every state.
Sorry for the diversion,but the MMRCA 2.0 isheading nowhere.
Cain Marko
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

arshyam wrote:Well, I would argue that you are comparing apples and oranges. I presume by 275+ birds, you mean the Air Force's Tejas and its derivatives. So if these birds are rendered inoperative due to sanctions, we still have a fall back in 270+ Su-30MKIs and 36 (hopefully 72 at some point) Rafales. I will ignore the ageing Jags and Mig-29s at this point. Heck, let's even ignore the Mirages. That still leaves the Air Force with a smaller, but still potent capability, that the Air Force can wield from wherever they want to, if nothing else, in a defensive role.
By your own logic saar, IF by some uber-conspiracy all of the 24 JSFs that I'm advocating as a silver bullet force are rendered inoperative, won't the entire remaining fleet be unaffected? IOWs, the IN will still operate their MiG29Ks, no different from today and the IAF remains unaffected. The downside is very little, the upside, much. [/quote]
Now coming to the Navy, the F-35s will be deployed from an aircraft carrier. Let's say the same sanctions render these birds inoperative, then what? The entire aircraft carrier, built at a cost of billions of USD, is rendered inoperative. Given our budgetary limits and the Navy's plan of having 3 carriers with one in refit, that's 50% capability off the table right there. So like the fighters, the carrier itself becomes a dry-dock queen. One may argue that we can deploy some other aircraft from that carrier and still use it - which aircraft? If the carrier is STOBAR, we fall back on the MiG-29K, warts and all. This assumes the F-35 is qualified for STOBAR (I think the RN will ask this for its QE carriers), more importantly, the Navy opts for another STOBAR carrier, which doesn't look likely as of now. Whereas, if (and per the Navy's dreams), the carrier has EMALS, which other fighter in our inventory can launch using it? I am quite certain no American administration would allow us to qualify MiG-29Ks or any other Russian origin aircraft to launch using EMALS, so we are stuck with a force consisting of a single fighter type. Speaking of EMALS, the same sanctions might very well render the launch capability inoperative too, at which point, the type of fighter becomes moot.
You are going to places where I've never been in the above para. I'll discuss the relevant aspects and leave out the whole Vishal and EMALs bit because it is not at all relevant to current context. As you say, no more than fantasy big V is! So lets discuss the italicized part - why will either of the entire aircraft carrier be rendered inoperative? Are they inoperative today? Why can't they continue to ply the MiG29K? BTW, the uptimes on this bird have improved considerably and last I checked the CNS was quoted as being quite satisfied in this regard. In fact, they are aiming for 80% uptimes, which is a big deal.
Lastly, where will these stealth aircraft operate? Arabian sea and Pakistan? The current assets themselves are capable enough to take care of the pakis, not to mention the Air Force's own assets. I also assume that the "some restrictions" you were okay with do not include staying away from the Arabian sea, otherwise this point too becomes moot. So that leaves China. No F-35 can fly solo from a carrier deployed in the BoB/IOR and perform a mission near China, say ICS, and come back without refueler support. Something our Navy does not have, and the Air Force may be loath to lend given their own needs. The other alternative is for the carrier group to steam past S'pore, and launch our fighters from the southern ICS itself. Sure the fighters will now have a workable range, and may not be observable after launch, but the giant carrier would be very well visible to the Chinese since the same choke point that applies to their ingress into the IOR applies to us. Clearly, relying on airborne stealth alone is not going to help us. That leaves dealing with Chinese threats in the IOR - which we are dealing with even today with our current assets. So the F-35 is not going to bring in some superlative capability to sanitize the IOR - heck, even Rafales are good enough at that point. At least, we can use them the way we want to without worrying about it being turned off mid-air (figuratively speaking).
here I think you totally underestimate what the JSF can bring to the table - to summarize, it is a massive gamechanger and can truly provide the Indian forces a tool whereby their ability to manage 2 front scenario is considerably boosted:
1. Even a handful of F35 gives such an untouchable and extraordinary advantage vs TSP that a large part of the remaining resources can be used vs China. Against China, esp. in areas like Tibet, again they would be of great use against the likes of the S300 and clones. Not to mention PLAAF assets.
2. In terms of projecting force such as carrying out land attacks on heavily guarded HVA e.g. Karachi area, it will allow the Migs to remain passive for most of the engagement. ACting as AEW with its multiple sensors and NCW ability, the F35 can very easily allow direct operations far away from organic AEW support such as from the Ka31s
3. The JSF will act as "openers" by kicking down the door and degrading enemy network nodes and assets even before the rest of the gang comes in to take control of the skies. There is absolutely nothing to challenge the JSF esp. wrt to TSP. The war will be over in 2-3 days with hardly much attrition for the IAF, leaving it fully capable of checking the Chinese if the latter decide to act funny.
4. As far as Chinese threats in the IOR are concerned, what do you think they are building 6 CVs for? Once these become fully operational, and that won't take long, CV vs CV becomes a real possibility in the IOR or the ICS. At such times the force with longer reaches and larger bubbles become more potent. Again, the F35 will come very handy here. Ditto vs other PLAN surface combatants that have VLSAMs aboard.
5. Ultimately war is about attrition and this will be reduced to a minimum if India starts on the front-foot using doorbangers like the F35. For example, a couple of F35 in the party at Balakote or TSP's consequent attack could've have been quite different.
Lastly, the F-35 is stealthy and built to take advantage of khan's superlative network and sensory capabilities. How well it will perform without these capabilities is not yet known. But I'd wager that having sunk in a huge amount of money into the ecosystem, the amrikis are not going to let us tinker with it and install our own hardware - so either use it without n/w centric capability, which makes it an invisible white elephant (airavat?), or burrow further into the US ecosystem with more and more money so we can use it properly, but at the cost of whatever independence is left with us.
Any which way, I don't see an upside for us.
I just gave you a bunch of reasons and upsides, so did Karan. The operational advantages brought about by the F35 far, far outweigh any disadvantages in terms of cost (only a few in number), sanctions (mitigated due to small number and by redundancy in fleets), and integration and customization, which is addressed below:
First, a silver bullet force of a few fighters is not bought with the idea of customization, it is bought because it provides a read advantage that counters and exceeds the threats faced.
Second, the other IAF is already on cue to bring in customized variants into its inventory (this included datalinks and HMS iirc), which means that India could use something of that nature and thereby find commonality with the existing fleet - includes weapons like derby, CMs and other kit.

So, all I see is upside, and very little downside. In fact, this is the first thing that I would try to procure from the US after the Sea Guardians, and maybe even before those! Even at a mighty cost of $ 200 million per bird including support and weapons, this would be well worth the $5 billion spent.
arshyam
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by arshyam »

Cain Marko wrote:
arshyam wrote:Well, I would argue that you are comparing apples and oranges. I presume by 275+ birds, you mean the Air Force's Tejas and its derivatives. So if these birds are rendered inoperative due to sanctions, we still have a fall back in 270+ Su-30MKIs and 36 (hopefully 72 at some point) Rafales. I will ignore the ageing Jags and Mig-29s at this point. Heck, let's even ignore the Mirages. That still leaves the Air Force with a smaller, but still potent capability, that the Air Force can wield from wherever they want to, if nothing else, in a defensive role.
By your own logic saar, IF by some uber-conspiracy all of the 24 JSFs that I'm advocating as a silver bullet force are rendered inoperative, won't the entire remaining fleet be unaffected? IOWs, the IN will still operate their MiG29Ks, no different from today and the IAF remains unaffected. The downside is very little, the upside, much.
CM saar, with all due respect, you are selectively quoting a partial point and making your case.

This was your initial statement. Can we agree that by the number 275, you were referring to the Air Force, while the original point of discussion was about a silver bullet force for the Navy?
Cain Marko wrote:Actually, you totally missed the point, phorget Crux. For most purposes, they already have both testimonials, giving them a little cheek is not an issue.

Again, I'd say that the danger is far greater in having an entire fleet of 275+birds at their mercy compared to a 2 dozen birds that can seriously alter the game in our favor.
Now please read this point in its entirety, I hope it clarifies what I am trying to say - the Air Force, even with 275 birds out of commission, can operate with some capability, but the Navy with an already smaller air fleet would be disproportionately impacted. In addition, even the carrier would become useless.
arshyam wrote:Well, I would argue that you are comparing apples and oranges. I presume by 275+ birds, you mean the Air Force's Tejas and its derivatives. So if these birds are rendered inoperative due to sanctions, we still have a fall back in 270+ Su-30MKIs and 36 (hopefully 72 at some point) Rafales. I will ignore the ageing Jags and Mig-29s at this point. Heck, let's even ignore the Mirages. That still leaves the Air Force with a smaller, but still potent capability, that the Air Force can wield from wherever they want to, if nothing else, in a defensive role.

Now coming to the Navy, the F-35s will be deployed from an aircraft carrier. Let's say the same sanctions render these birds inoperative, then what? The entire aircraft carrier, built at a cost of billions of USD, is rendered inoperative. Given our budgetary limits and the Navy's plan of having 3 carriers with one in refit, that's 50% capability off the table right there. So like the fighters, the carrier itself becomes a dry-dock queen. One may argue that we can deploy some other aircraft from that carrier and still use it - which aircraft? If the carrier is STOBAR, we fall back on the MiG-29K, warts and all. This assumes the F-35 is qualified for STOBAR (I think the RN will ask this for its QE carriers), more importantly, the Navy opts for another STOBAR carrier, which doesn't look likely as of now. Whereas, if (and per the Navy's dreams), the carrier has EMALS, which other fighter in our inventory can launch using it? I am quite certain no American administration would allow us to qualify MiG-29Ks or any other Russian origin aircraft to launch using EMALS, so we are stuck with a force consisting of a single fighter type. Speaking of EMALS, the same sanctions might very well render the launch capability inoperative too, at which point, the type of fighter becomes moot.
Cain Marko wrote:You are going to places where I've never been in the above para. I'll discuss the relevant aspects and leave out the whole Vishal and EMALs bit because it is not at all relevant to current context.
Yes, you didn't bring it up, but this is very relevant in the context of an aircraft carrier. Surely you are not saying any aircraft can launch and recover off any carrier type? If we consider getting a silver bullet force for the Navy, we have to consider which carrrier/carrier type it is going to deploy from. Not sure why that is not relevant?
Cain Marko wrote:As you say, no more than fantasy big V is! So lets discuss the italicized part - why will either of the entire aircraft carrier be rendered inoperative? Are they inoperative today? Why can't they continue to ply the MiG29K?
Saar, a silver bullet force for the Navy would need a carrier, correct? That would be either Vikramaditya or the Vikrant? Either of them can hold around 20-25 fighters today, correct? By your own point, the 29K uptimes have improved to pretty good levels. So where will this silver bullet force deploy from? And why would be spend a lot of money to arm the Vikrant again when it already has operational fighters? So I assume it would be from a new carrier, at which all the points about EMALS, qualified fighters, etc. all come into play.

If you are saying we are only going to deploy these fighters from the Vikrant, which already has a relatively young fleet with good uptimes (again, your own point), I'd say it is an egregious waste of money consider the other pressing needs the Navy has, such as ASW helis, minesweepers, submarines, etc. But despite all that, if we buy the F-35 only for the Vikrant and tell the embarked 29Ks to land bases (seems a fantasy to me, sorry), then I agree that Vikrant would still continue to stay operational with the 29K.
Cain Marko wrote:BTW, the uptimes on this bird have improved considerably and last I checked the CNS was quoted as being quite satisfied in this regard. In fact, they are aiming for 80% uptimes, which is a big deal.
Absolutely. I have no concerns about the uptimes of the 29K at this point. I am in fact saying that the the 40-odd 29Ks will all we will have in the event this silver bullet force is rendered inoperative. I hope you are not saying that it is not a serious loss of capability after throwing a boat load of money to get a silver bullet force.
Cain Marko wrote:here I think you totally underestimate what the JSF can bring to the table - to summarize, it is a massive gamechanger and can truly provide the Indian forces a tool whereby their ability to manage 2 front scenario is considerably boosted:
1. Even a handful of F35 gives such an untouchable and extraordinary advantage vs TSP that a large part of the remaining resources can be used vs China. Against China, esp. in areas like Tibet, again they would be of great use against the likes of the S300 and clones. Not to mention PLAAF assets.
2. In terms of projecting force such as carrying out land attacks on heavily guarded HVA e.g. Karachi area, it will allow the Migs to remain passive for most of the engagement. ACting as AEW with its multiple sensors and NCW ability, the F35 can very easily allow direct operations far away from organic AEW support such as from the Ka31s
3. The JSF will act as "openers" by kicking down the door and degrading enemy network nodes and assets even before the rest of the gang comes in to take control of the skies. There is absolutely nothing to challenge the JSF esp. wrt to TSP. The war will be over in 2-3 days with hardly much attrition for the IAF, leaving it fully capable of checking the Chinese if the latter decide to act funny.
4. As far as Chinese threats in the IOR are concerned, what do you think they are building 6 CVs for? Once these become fully operational, and that won't take long, CV vs CV becomes a real possibility in the IOR or the ICS. At such times the force with longer reaches and larger bubbles become more potent. Again, the F35 will come very handy here. Ditto vs other PLAN surface combatants that have VLSAMs aboard.
5. Ultimately war is about attrition and this will be reduced to a minimum if India starts on the front-foot using doorbangers like the F35. For example, a couple of F35 in the party at Balakote or TSP's consequent attack could've have been quite different.
I did use the words "superlative" w.r.t. the F-35's capabilities. I was just questioning how useful it would be for us, given our insistence (so far) of maintaining our own network centric capabilities, which may not be compatible with the F-35s without deep intrusion of amir khan assets. Anyway, I will concede this point as my knowledge is not as much.
Cain Marko wrote:First, a silver bullet force of a few fighters is not bought with the idea of customization, it is bought because it provides a read advantage that counters and exceeds the threats faced.
So even after spending billions on a small fleet, it would stay relatively isolated from the rest of the fleet due to a) US origin components that won't work with the existing setup because they are not khan kit, b) would need a lot of work and alphabet soup agreements with khan to use some of it (P8I comes to mind as an example), and c) khan's concerns about exposing its capabilities to Russian origin hardware. I am for now completely ignoring any objections the Russians may w.r.t. the strategic platforms they have sold/leased to us, like S-400 or the Chakra. Anyway, let's say it is still made to happen, we will still have to deal with the following type of nonsense*, but after having spent billions of dollars and on the hook to the khan supply chain:
Cain Marko wrote:For those in the US, just received this via email from HAF, seems like PJ is making some moves, PLiss TO DO NEEDFUL IT GOES IN TOMORROW!:
I was on Capitol Hill all last week and one thing is clear Rep. Jayapal's anti-India H. Res. 745 is gaining momentum.

The House Foreign Affairs Committee (HFAC) is scheduled to hold a vote on Wednesday, March 4th on a series of bills. Right now, H. Res. 745 is not on the agenda, but Rep. Jayapal and her allies are pushing HFAC Chairman Eliot Engel (D-NY) hard to vote on this bill.

We have to stop them now because if H. Res. 745 does get added to the agenda then it's already too late.

Click here to Stop Bad, Anti-India, Anti-Hindu Resolution H. Res. 745
https://www.votervoice.net/mobile/HAF/C ... 29/Respond
* If for a minor issue like CAA this is the blowback, imagine the blowback after we try to do something major but important to us (read UCC, or even Pokharan III)? Ten years down the line, we'd still be worrying (okay, at least "observing" :)) about what some two-bit lawmaker is saying about us in a whimsical Congress, and what their President would say or not say when visiting us. This worry (or "observation") would be magnified after having spent billions for the silver bullet, to the level where we may not take steps that would offend khan. If we still end up doing a Pokharan in the future, all bets are off. Another Sea King story onlee. One wonders why we hardly care about who rules France or Russia, let alone what an individual lawmaker in these countries say. But even without much buy-in (yet) into the khan ecosystem, we are dhoti-shivering (sorry that's what it is).
Manish_Sharma
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_Sharma »

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... ssion=true
36 Rafale aircraft will not be adequate for IAF: Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria

By Shaurya Karanbir Gurung, ET Bureau | Updated: Feb 29, 2020, 09.56 AM IST

NEW DELHI: The 36 Rafale fighter aircraft will not provide the Indian Air Force a complete solution and there is a need to develop indigenous weapons and technology which will be a major “gamechanger” in the future, IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria said on Friday.

Bhadauria, while speaking at a seminar “Air Power in ‘No War No Peace’ Scenario”, explained that the induction of the Rafales armed with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Meteor missiles, will give the IAF an edge over the Pakistan Air Force in terms of BVR technology. The first Rafales arrive in India in May.

But, he said that the IAF cannot just depend on the Rafale’s Meteor BVR missiles to sort out the force’s requirements. He added that when the indigenous Astra missile is integrated with the Su-30 and MiG-29 aircraft, it will ensure better performance and parity across the IAF. He said that the indigenous industry needs to give the IAF an edge in weapons, adding that the force will be “happy” to use such technology in the next skirmish.

While the IAF Chief said that the force didn’t have the BVR edge over the Pakistan Air Force at the time of the Balakot strikes in February last year, the hit showed the will to strike targets across the Line of Control. He said it was a demonstration on the use of airpower below the conventional boundaries, wherein the IAF can be used for targeting and have escalation control. He added that to prevent collateral damage, the weapons & their quantity was chosen to be just adequate, otherwise the IAF could have “doubled the aircraft and launched four times the weapons”.

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, who also attended the seminar, said that the Balakot strikes were a strong message to Pakistan that terrorist infrastructure across the border cannot be used as a safe haven to wage a “low-cost war” against India.

He said that following the Balakot strikes the government has initiated “major structural changes” to tackle future threats. But, he added that arresting terrorists like Hafiz Saeed is not enough and unless Pakistan is made accountable it will continue with its policy of “deceit”.

On the Rafales and indigenous technology, Bhadauria said, “The 36 Rafales will not give the IAF an entire solution. But when our indigenous Astra goes on to the Su-30 and MiG-29 that is the real power of parity and better performance that will spread across the air force...Indigenous technology projects need to succeed on a time frame that is robust and the industry needs to give us these products that are indigenous. That is a major game changer that should happen in future. We will be happy that in the next skirmish the weapons that we use are indigenous.”

The Astra is a BVR air-to-air missile developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation. He also said that over the last year the air force has concentrated on advanced weapon systems and has examined some sensors and indigenous missiles that it has expedited. “We cannot just depend on meteor class BVR on Rafale to sort out the entire air force requirements. It is also important that this capability on rafale is complemented with similar capability on other platforms,” he said.

“We had a BVR edge over the Pakistan Air Force at the time of Kargil. We allowed that to slip and thereafter it took a decade and a half in our struggle through the acquisition process to be able to get back to a better capability. It didn’t materialise at the time of Balakot and it will materialise with the Rafale inducting,” he said.

Speaking on Balakot's lessons, Bhadauria said, “First is the demonstration of the will to strike against targets across the LoC. This was a major shift and fundamental to our actions in the future…This was a clear demonstration on the use of airpower that exists a space below the conventional boundaries wherein the IAF can be utilised for targeting and yet have escalation control.”

He also said, “It was important to get the target and to ensure no collateral damage. That was the choice of weapons was chosen and the quantity chosen in a manner that it is just adequate, otherwise we could have doubled the aircraft and launched four times the weapons.”

Meanwhile, Singh said that India’s out-of-the-box response reflected in the Balakot airstrikes forced the rewriting of many doctrines across the LoC and the adversary has to think “100 times for any future misadventures”.

Stressing on the importance of diplomatic and financial pressure to thwart cross-border terrorism, he said, “We have recently seen the impact of collective diplomatic and financial pressure on Pakistan. Terrorists like Hafiz Saeed who were treated like VIPs and heroes, have been put behind bars. We realise that this is not enough and unless Pakistan is made accountable, it will continue with its previous policy of duplicity and deceit. All attempts are being made to work in this direction.”
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 04 Mar 2020 21:24, edited 1 time in total.
Manish_P
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

The more the merrier.. or is it messier

F-15 offer could disrupt Indian fighter contest
But only if the Indian Air Force is ready to buy American

Flight Global‘s Greg Waldron broke the news out of the Singapore Air Show 2020 last month of the U.S. Government considering an application for an export licence for its F-15 fighter aircraft to India.

Although there is a lot to unpack here in terms of implications (which we will get to in a minute), StratPost can confirm that an export policy approval has been granted in the form of an ITAR-waiver. ITAR stands for International Traffic in Arms Regulations that govern the control of arms exports by the United States. Separately, F-15 manufacturer Boeing also applied for a DSP-5 licence in the fourth quarter of 2019, which would allow them to market the aircraft to India. Both the ITAR-waiver and the DSP-5 licence allow the sharing of information that is not already in the public domain, for the purpose of marketing. According to the U.S. State Department, ‘The DSP-5 can include hardware, software, or documents and is the mechanism used to obtain a Marketing License for information that is not public domain’.

Finally, StratPost can confirm that representatives of the U.S. government and Boeing have already conducted early conversations on the aircraft with the Indian Air Force (IAF) on their request, under the ITAR-waiver.

The IAF’s interest in the F-15 has emerged from the U.S. Air Force order for an upgraded model of the fighter, the lessons from the air defence battle that followed the Balakote raid and tacit recognition of the distinction between the F-15 and other U.S. fighter aircraft that have been offered to India.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ranjan.rao »

what if all this mess was to buy time for Tejas???

i think the only aircrafts left out of all this are JF17, J20 and J11 et al..we should consider buying them...they will bring way more peace (of mind) than buying even F22 or Su57 or any other single double triple engine plane..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

ranjan.rao wrote:what if all this mess was to buy time for Tejas???
Part of me hopes it is for that reason, partly i think it is to wait and see the progress on the Su 57.

Personally speaking IF it is going to be an american aircraft then the F18 Super Hornet seems (to me) to make more sense than the F16/21 or the F15-EX

maybe Boeing should go one up on Lockmart and rebrand the rhino for us SDREs as the F31 to match the J31 :-?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

I have moved all the posts from the India-US Relations thread and renamed all the post titles as well. Please continue discussion in here.
UlanBatori wrote:^^ I happen to be a customer of IndusInd Baink, Indian Baink, and a taxpayer who has to fill out the Saral IT-2 and convert it to Java/XML or use the Excel Utility each year. A bit too aware of the hype- and the realities- of Indian Eye-Tea prowess, thank you very much! Please don't make me laugh. Anyway, sorry I commented on these. Not my place.
We all need a dose of reality every now and then. So continue commenting please.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ranjan.rao »

Kartik wrote:Since some people here are insisting that F-35 must be bought for the MRCA, here is an article that'll whet their appetite even more..:D
in case of MMRCA, anything is possible. It has more twists and turns than Ekta kapoor serial.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

Manish_P wrote:Personally speaking IF it is going to be an american aircraft then the F18 Super Hornet seems (to me) to make more sense than the F16/21 or the F15-EX
[/size]
At the end of the day, why would the MOD/IAF want a naval optimized fighter aircraft when they have other options? If there is a requirement to buy a US aircraft then the F-15 EX is the best option by far. It offers the best value IMHO. If that need isn't there, then the Rafale is an easy winner. If they need to trade performance for price then the F-21 and Gripen gain advantage.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ranjan.rao »

brar_w wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Personally speaking IF it is going to be an american aircraft then the F18 Super Hornet seems (to me) to make more sense than the F16/21 or the F15-EX
[/size]
At the end of the day, why would the MOD/IAF want a naval optimized fighter aircraft when they have other options? If there is a requirement to buy a US aircraft then the F-15 EX is the best option by far. It offers the best value IMHO. If that need isn't there, then the Rafale is an easy winner. If they need to trade performance for price then the F-21 and Gripen gain advantage.
is the argument about commanlity between IAF and IN been out of consideration after debates on the third carrier?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

That assumes that there would be a joint RFP issued. The commonality argument also applies to the Rafale with the M variant as well. In order for this to happen the MOD would have negotiate the deals together. So far there is nothing that suggests that the MOD is willing to consolidate the two options into one program where points are awarded for proposing a common solution for the IAF and the IN.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ranjan.rao »

brar_w wrote:That assumes that there would be a joint RFP issued. The commonality argument also applies to the Rafale with the M variant as well. In order for this to happen the MOD would have negotiate the deals together. So far there is nothing that suggests that the MOD is willing to consolidate the two options into one program where points are awarded for proposing a common solution for the IAF and the IN.
ok i missed out that procedural formalities override common sense at MOD
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

brar_w wrote: At the end of the day, why would the MOD/IAF want a naval optimized fighter aircraft when they have other options?
I do believe the IAF know exactly what they would like (and have given hints about it), just that the GOI have to consider the long term geopolitical situation, not to forget the trade pressure from the US as well, and to some extent to give Trump a victory he can sell. However with the 3rd carrier project seemingly not being pushed as the topmost priority for the IN now, the prospects of the F18 for the MRCA 2.0 do appear less favorable than they were some time ago. Also noted your point about no common RFP.
brar_w wrote: If there is a requirement to buy a US aircraft then the F-15 EX is the best option by far. It offers the best value IMHO. If that need isn't there, then the Rafale is an easy winner. If they need to trade performance for price then the F-21 and Gripen gain advantage.
Given your domain knowledge i would be inclined to agree about the value part (among the US offerings), however it is just too close to the Su30 MKI. And the Gripen is just too close to the Tejas. It should be the Rafale, but then why this circus again - just buying some time then?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

ranjan.rao wrote: ok i missed out that procedural formalities override common sense at MOD

"Common sense" needs to be codified into a formal request for proposal. Good RFP's specify objective evaluation and scoring criteria and leave little to interpretation or subjective thinking. If the MOD wants a naval derivative then it must set up the RFP in such a way where those that have one in service are given points based on A) whether they have a naval derivative, and B ) How close is the design of the naval derivative to the land based aircraft and C) How easy is a naval variant from an integration perspective (on the two IN carriers).
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ranjan.rao »

thanks for the elaborate response! your posts are a delight to read..
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by UlanBatori »

^^ Rakeshji et al: My observation is this:
Suppose someone discovers/invents XYZ, a perfectly useless but overpriced and overadvertised piece of garbage with an exotic name, let's call it Super Highly Intelligent Technology. You go to Desh and tell them you have it. They will immediately nod vigorously:
V R having that in India also!!
and cite 23 people doing "research" on that in Indian labs/universities with Phoren Collaborashun with S.H.I.T. Inc.
But you go check what they are actually doing and well... :roll:
So it is not surprising that India is uber-enthused about the F-35. "Game-Changer". "Net-Centric" etc etc etc.

Now I switch to the other reality. Back in the 1970s, a few ppl at the IISc and IITs, and their Seniors who were already working at IBM, Bell Labs etc, latched on to Solid State Transistors, MicroProcessors and Software as the bandwagons of the future. The rest of thought that Transistor was what Sanjay Gandhi's Amateur Surgeons gave you free if you Did The Patriotic Thing 2 Ur Thing, but that's beside the point.

These people were brilliant. Scary-brilliant. I just happen to have seen enough of them up close to give me a life-changing shock resulting in a permanent stoop of inferiority. They weren't bragging, they were just THAT good. The top 1-2% of whatever top % made it to the IITs and IISc then.

To cut this short these were the people who conceptualized and implemented Tata Consultancy, InfoSys, Probably the Indian Atim Bum. Early aerospace successes. Green Revolution.
They had standards like you wouldn't believe them. And so their work was generally top-notch, their software may have had errors, but they found and fixed them with brutal self-discipline.

These are the people who managed, by the early 1980s, to achieve "6-sigma" quality for Indian companies operating inside India. MOST of the early 6-sigmas were Indian!

And then their companies became rich.
******
Which brings us to today. Indian software, sorry to say, is biss-boor in quality, at least as I see it in the commercial workplace (AND... the same ppl I spoke of earlier, are bitter in their rants against what the same companies have been doing!)
I see this at every level. The IT software that the govt gives out free (such an enlightened step!!) is full of bugs. You'd think that this would be the Signature Product for any company to brag, that THEY developed the system used by 300 million taxpayers, largest in the world? Do you know that the JAVA version does not run unless you run it on a computer with a version of JAVA that has not been updated for the past 6(?) years? Same with the MS Excel version.

Ha! You say. "I get my taxes done by my accountant!". Well, I don't. I am bloody-minded. As I told the pig at Kochi Customs decades ago, I am literate and I believe that I should be able to fill out forms that my Govt puts out for citizens to fill. I am not perfect but when I mess up I clean up. I do these myself. And so I know WHY the accts have no trouble. It is because they keep their tax-filing computer with JAVA, etc NOT updated for the past 6 years. Ask the tech support at Income Tax div, and if they are in good mood they will tell you this. In fact, what they will say is "What version of JAVA are you using?" I took this to mean, "Have you updated?" But it means: "Find a computer with an old version!" Same apparently, if you want to submit Govt Tenders online. So who runs Quality Control at the software companies that take these govt projects?

-Do you think they will be more honest in developing government defence systems?
The same philosophy of delivering sh1t, pervades the whole Indian software landscape. Of the banks I mentioned one is a "leader" in technology implementation, the other is a staid old nationalized baink. Good people, in both places: I mean a few. But biss-boor software.
Example: ATM card activation. You stick the card in, it says, "OTP sent to XXXXXXXXXX" Correct phone number, except that the OTP does not come. Not in the 5 mins that you have. It comes in 20 minutes Or not at all. No one knows why. No one cares.

So I ask you: Are you going to recommend blowing the nation's scant defence money buying phoren maal, reasoning that "V R Having Net-Centric Capability Onlee!" and believing that? Let me stop here, sorry again.

Learn to fly an autopiloted all-india-genius small UAV reliably first. For 100,000 missions. Learn to develop **AND USE!!!*** testing systems that explore all possible faults, relentlessly and find and **FIX** the faults. Re-learn the CULTURE of work ethic as in rigorous, no-compromise software testing.

*****

And before you arm those missiles attacking me for being a Bhesht-Phlunky, let me point out (with all respect to Brarji) that US and Oiropean entities are **Nearly** as bad. Not exactly as bad because they eventually fire the worst ones or promote them to mgt, while in India they only promote them. Recently I find that even the top US financial companies, which used to have absolutely top-class customer service, now have been "Indianized".
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Kartik »

ranjan.rao wrote:
brar_w wrote:That assumes that there would be a joint RFP issued. The commonality argument also applies to the Rafale with the M variant as well. In order for this to happen the MOD would have negotiate the deals together. So far there is nothing that suggests that the MOD is willing to consolidate the two options into one program where points are awarded for proposing a common solution for the IAF and the IN.
ok i missed out that procedural formalities override common sense at MOD
General Bipin Rawat as CDS will have to ensure that commonality is now taken into account when drawing requirements that have significant overlap, such as in the case of the 57 MRCBF for the Navy, and the 114 MRCA for the IAF. That is of course assuming that the CDS will entertain the 57 MRCBF requirement going further.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Karan M »

UB, your personal experiences are, well personal.

Most of us use "Indian made" software systems in FinTech and they do ok.

I use IMPS, NEFT, Indian made websites, AMC websites app. They work 99% of the time. I use mobile phone apps for ordering food, all sorts of stuff. They work fine. My ola app is more responsive than my "cheaper" Uber one. Customer service also works. Though drivers are arguably not so great.
In terms of OTPs, I have had like 4 cases out of a thousand transactions, literally, where the OTP did not arrive in time for me to get things done.

The perennially "broke" Indian IT servers which used to crash at the time of tax returns also mostly work nowadays. I file my own taxes. So do most of my generation. The instructions are fairly simpler then earlier and nowadays you get pre-filled forms and also have the website option.

Does this mean all GOI software is of the same standard? I guess not. Can't extrapolate. But private developers seem to be doing pretty well. And most GOI websites i access are very convenient and give me exactly what I need.

OTOH, my "foreign" PayPal, CC, ebay login are all trash. No customer service worth its name.

So coming to defence. I don't think your complaints are that meaningful, because our domestic systems in defence go through heavy user trials and go back again and again to be reworked till at least the prototypes meet stringent requirements.

Production QA/QC are of course a different matter & that will only occur when the entire supply chain works towards the same level. Given we achieved it in automotive, privatization in defence is also underway, I dont think it is undoable.

As a last note, a decade or so back, the constant complaint in India's urban areas was that production quality was uniformly bad and nothing was standardized. The same "lala" builders whom everyone mocked, now have standardized work crews whom they've trained, and deploy from project to project & the production quality if its not cent per cent US etc, is definitely better than Chinese builders who may build faster but expat accounts are very detailed about what that entails.

Our imports are not that great either. Israeli gear we have inducted has often been full of bugs but we keep buying it. Ditto with Russian. American gear, hit and miss, though hopefully the new stuff is likely ok. French is ok-ok.

In the recent clash with Pakistan, we extensively used our own IAF IACCS, or net centric data-backbone. Its built on US and Indian hardware, with US and Indian software, and operated by Indian PSUs for the IAF. Folks sitting in Barnala ran an IAF combat op over Kashmir, in real time. LCA Mk1A in development has display software which is at the same level as what we get ex-import. Its developed by brown-skinned, heavily accented Indian developers who dont speak fluent English as versus fair skinned SAAB types who are very good on PR videos, but former are available on a phone call from Ambala AFB if the IAF wants anything.

We are perfectly capable of adding F-35 type gear into the Indian force mix. If we can add Rafales, AESA radars, EW, satellites etc, the F-35 is no big deal. All it does is provide some information and it will need a converter or gate-way to get that into the IAFs network without compromising it.

Bottomline, things aren't perfect, but they aren't all bad either.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

F-15 offer could disrupt Indian fighter contest
https://stratpost.com/f-15-offer-could- ... r-contest/
03 March 2020

After reading the above article, one gets the impression that the IAF will order both the Rafale and the F-15.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Roop »

Rakesh wrote:F-15 offer could disrupt Indian fighter contest
https://stratpost.com/f-15-offer-could- ... r-contest/
03 March 2020

After reading the above article, one gets the impression that the IAF will order both the Rafale and the F-15.
I get the same impression! 8) (I'm not sure if you were serious or just kidding, but I'm serious). I find brar_w's posts on this aircraft (F15-EX) fascinating.

Someone please help me out here -- there is a US long-range radar-guided AAM which has even longer range than the AIM-120D. What is that missile called?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by UlanBatori »

^^Karan, glad to hear that things work so well for you. Sorry but being defensive doesn't convey much hope: it's not like I was born yesterday and don't know anyone in India outside BRF. The reality in Indian defence, as in all other areas, leaves huge room for improvement, with far too slow or negative progress. Complacency will be fatal.

A tough analysis needs to be done, 1+year after the Balakot strikes and aftermath. Balakot was executed beautifully, but... remember that it was a long-planned canned-mission that was pulled out for revenge. Nevertheless, credit where credit is due.

OTOH, the PAF strike was (or should have been) no surprise. That they did not get stopped before lobbing bombs into a Brigade HQ, is pretty alarming (We were all too loyal to ask exactly what damage occurred: I do not believe that only trees got hit any more than I believe the Pakis' claim about Balakot. Also that the first-line fighters (Su-30s etc) basically broke off and ran for it, once they saw missiles in the air, and did not hit the intruders hard. And to top it all was the tragic SNAFU of air defense downing the helicopter. SURELY that should ring huge alarm bells about Net-Centric Warfare? That part certainly flunked the test.

The fact is that India cannot afford even now to put up a decent number of modern fighters in that most critical of sectors to intercept and massacre such an intrusion. That PAF raid should have ended with all their runways cratered in a swarm counter-attack, forcing their planes to crash-land/ bail out. Instead all that they got was a panicky defense that barely managed to avoid getting hit by AAMs.

Had the Pakis actually crossed inside, or had a second strike wave close behind, I think they would have been able to do serious damage and escape unharmed. It's their own Pakiness plus the MiG pilot's bravery that salvaged something. So many years after 1965 this was really alarming to see.

Back to the Fin Systems: I also have experience with SBI Chicago. Took them 2+ months (I kid you not) to set up two simple online accounts. Excuse after excuse, the *&^&* websites were totally non-functional, instructions were totally wrong, and the staff 100% clueless. I happen to have a close relative who retired as VP of SBI and I keep goading her with stories like Sehwag's "Lunch ke baad aana", but that time I refrained because it was so pathetic. Current example: Exchange rate has zoomed from 70:1 to 73:1 in the past week. Private banks are taking full advantage urging customers to send$$ to desh.

SBI? Their site says they offer a wonderful 63:1, unchanged from 2 weeks ago! ******** have not even bothered to update their website. THAT says it all about attitudes in Indian govt. As for Air India, 3 months after I asked for a simple email address change they have not managed to do it. And I should believe that in the Defense sector alone, things are sooo much better? Sorry, that is not realistic.

The counter that US consumer software systems and "Customer Service" (Ha!!) don't work, does not work. It's like the old story of Nehru and JFK riding a train and Nehru pointing to a guy "going" in the field:
But that is the Indian Ambassador to the USA!
All their Customer Service and software update processes are probably outsourced to Indian IT companies.

I am sure these are not pleasant for hard-working ppl in GOI enterprises to hear, but they will all come to bite if a real war has to be fought. I know this is a low blow, but remember that the engine non-success still grates on all of us: no avoiding the fact that India, 73 years after Independence cannot produce a decent jet engine. The reasons are above: biss-boor work ethic, no culture of preparing thoroughly, no discipline to test systems seriously. And these guys/gals are going to develop a "Net-Centric warfare system" (a parroted term, BTW) that can adapt and repair itself on the fly in a shooting war against a serious enemy like PRC?

But my argument here was about the suitability of buying the F-35. I think it would be a HORRIBLE mistake. It is unconscionable to waste that kind of money on a handful of pampered systems, while the day-to-day job of guarding the border and frontline cities, is shouldered by Adbhinandan & Co in 1960s-vintage MiG-21s or Sopwith Camels. And panicky kids operating SAMS, that clearly did not get even basic messages on IFF. What good are terms like "net-centric" given such realities? Maybe they should first learn "phone-centric"? Or "Morse Code Centric"?

The rationale for the F-35 in the US DoD, does not apply in the Indian DoD at all. The F-35 started as "JSF". Commonality of parts, etc etc between USAF, USN and USMC. India has no IMC that operates fighters and does not need that. The IN has a total of 2? functional carriers, that are probably too critical and vulnerable to be deployed if there is a real war. Now that Pak has ship to ship cruise missiles I think the carriers are mostly liabilities except maybe to do cyclone evacuations. Just not enough missile defence to make them viable platforms for blue-ocean deployment. People need to watch movies on Midway and Falklands to develop some credible simulations of the survival chances of the Indian carriers. Having 3 F-35s on board will change nothing.

As it stands I think only the USAF F-35 seems to be seriously operational, though it is the other two that were supposed to be game-changers. The cost is incredibly high, so that India would afford far too few. The investment would deny the funds needed to actually kick ass in developing indigenous systems.

Instead, investment should go into cheap hardware plus AI, to develop large fleets that can operate as swarms. Also AI for testing and fault prediction. Stop the crashes. Improve availability.

And finally, look at the title and length of this thread. Is there any seriousness about developing an MRCA? Wasn't the twin-engine HF-24 the first "MRCA"? At lesat that was a brave effort to do indigenous development, now given up in the shopping spree environment with the US.

I think an MRCA makes sense **ONLY*** if it is 100% indigenous CERTAINLY including engines, AND is mass-produced to fill up a fleet of 200+ inside 5years, not the glacial pace of LCA "production" with imported, de-rated, overpriced engines.
Sorry again to post what I see as the truth.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 05 Mar 2020 10:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

Yes, I agree with this article, the biggest assets of the F-15 are:

It is an Air Force fighter with all the kinetic performance that the IAF loves, it is not a sluggish navy fighter like the F-18.

It is not the F-16/21 (a PAF hand me down).

The USAF has ordered 144 of them.

It can carry an extra ordinary amount of AAMs:
The F-15EX features all the latest technology, integration already paid for by foreign clients, plus the ability to carry 22 AIM-9X Sidewinder and AMRAAM medium range air-to-air missiles.
After Nearly 20 Years, the Air Force Will Fly Brand New F-15s
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

UlanBatori wrote:^^Karan, glad to hear .......
.......Sorry again to post what I see as the truth.
Deep appreciation for a good post without the pinglish. Otherwise I used to glance over your posts without reading them because trying to decipher them with the pinglish is exhausting....
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by UlanBatori »

F-15 is a successful and capable plane. Can also do Anti-Satellite ops.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by UlanBatori »

ldev wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:^^Karan, glad to hear .......
.......Sorry again to post what I see as the truth.
Deep appreciation for a good post without the pinglish. Otherwise I used to glance over your posts without reading them because trying to decipher them with the pinglish is exhausting....
Operational necessity for pingreji is gone. :mrgreen: Besides, Snu-T-Bredators on MIL-Forum will strike if I use Pingreji here. :P
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ldev »

UlanBatori wrote:Besides, Snu-T-Bredators on MIL-Forum will strike if I use Pingreji here. :P
:rotfl:

But seriously, I totally agree with this:
OTOH, the PAF strike was (or should have been) no surprise. That they did not get stopped before lobbing bombs into a Brigade HQ, is pretty alarming (We were all too loyal to ask exactly what damage occurred: I do not believe that only trees got hit any more than I believe the Pakis' claim about Balakot. Also that the first-line fighters (Su-30s etc) basically broke off and ran for it, once they saw missiles in the air, and did not hit the intruders hard. And to top it all was the tragic SNAFU of air defense downing the helicopter. SURELY that should ring huge alarm bells about Net-Centric Warfare? That part certainly flunked the test.

The fact is that India cannot afford even now to put up a decent number of modern fighters in that most critical of sectors to intercept and massacre such an intrusion. That PAF raid should have ended with all their runways cratered in a swarm counter-attack, forcing their planes to crash-land/ bail out. Instead all that they got was a panicky defense that barely managed to avoid getting hit by AAMs.

Had the Pakis actually crossed inside, or had a second strike wave close behind, I think they would have been able to do serious damage and escape unharmed. It's their own Pakiness plus the MiG pilot's bravery that salvaged something. So many years after 1965 this was really alarming to see.
I think the frontline fighters breaking off is down to the loss of BVR edge that the IAF chief spoke off in his interview a few days ago as the biggest lesson of the IAF-PAF skirmish, the day after Balakot. What is not spelled out in the interview is what is the IAF chief's unvarnished opinion. Are the IAF radar/AAMs on frontline aircraft now at par with the PAF or below par? I suspect it is the latter because he speaks of the Rafale/Meteor combo, "bringing the IAF at or above par."
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

arshyam wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:In terms of S400, let the Navy use the bird and accept some end user restrictions. I think the US will be pliable.
Never expected to such words on BRF... Sad.
Shyam-ji, you cannot get so despondent :) You will give yourself depression!

The Indo-US relationship is here to stay. Nothing - even losing a fighter contest - is going to change that. There is no way around that, thanks to China. From the Indian perspective, the focus is on partnerships and not on alliances. When the interests converge, India will partner with the United States. When the interests do not converge, India will abstain. At the end of the day, the goal is what value does the partnership - in a particular sphere - offer for India? Because the reverse is true for the United States.

Both are doing a delicate dance with each other and both are trying to figure out what the other side really wants. And neither side is going to get everything they wish for. So there will be a compromise. This is like marriage onlee! Both will talk tough with each other but they realize that to achieve progress, cooperation is required. So it is a symbiotic relationship.

Do not place much emphasis on what is out in the media. A number of them are paid hacks for America's Military Industrial Complex. The same is true for these think-tanks as well ---> the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace is a good example. The US-India Strategic Partnership Forum is another. From the US perspective, it is a good business strategy. Wield foreign policy objectives through selling defence equipment. The model works great in South East Asia (Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan, etc), Middle East (Bahrain, UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia) and a few Western European nations. Along with defence sales, comes acronyms like CISMOA and defence pacts like NATO. America sets the agenda and the other countries dutifully follow them. No other choice really. The UK is a great example of a nation that has mortgaged her entire military capability to the US. It is a wise strategy that has paid off dividends for them. The downside is that they are a poodle, but that is a decision they are happy with.

With India, this model requires changes. India is no UK and neither will India blindly sign on every dotted line. Therefore CISMOA becomes COMCASA and Quad hobbles on one leg. Until India invests fully in the idea, the Quad can never become a reality. The Navy Chief threw cold water on that idea. And yet this is the same Navy that insists on a 65K, nuclear powered, EMALS equipped aircraft carrier. Money and budget be damned! Unless one is living under a rock, it is clear as the sun, as to the purpose and use of such a vessel for the IN. While China is an existential threat to all in the region, yet India holds summits with this important neighbour like Mamallapuram in 2019 and Wuhan in 2018. And yet in 2017, both had a stand off at Doklam.

Russian military equipment have not provided the most stellar service in India. Their after sales service (if you want to call it that!) is just pathetic. From the MiG-29K to the Vikramaditya to the T-90 to the PAK-FA, it is one disappointing story after another with the Russians. Yet this is the same India that signed a deal for the S-400 missile system (which is now delayed!), negotiating for another Akula Class boat, signed a deal for the manufacture of the AK-203 assault rifle under a joint venture called Indo-Russia Rifles Private Limited, etc, etc, etc. And you are well aware of BRF's resident Russian citizen :)

How does India reconcile this contradiction? Many on this forum, many in the US and many in India hate this term (non-alignment) and hate the man (Pandit Nehru) who came up with this idea, but that is exactly what this is. After 72 years, India is still very much playing the delicate dance of non-alignment. Talking to everyone, listening to everyone, nodding/smiling at everyone, offering chai/biskoot to everyone....but only doing what is right for India (at least from the perception of the ruling govt of the day).

If the F-35 does come, India and the US will come up with a solution to operate the aircraft alongside the S-400. Whatever that final solution is, rest assured it will not affect India's other military capabilities either. You remember our COMCASA discussion? :) So don't take takleef over what folks on BRF say. They are just stating their wish list. Not necessarily going to happen or be true. They are entitled to their opinion, just as you are to yours.

Just remember one thing ---> India may "want" the F-35 in the future, but will it "give up" the S-400 for it? There has to be a better product on offer - and India has to be willing to buy it - for that to happen. Lot of variables at play here.

I will offer you an even better solution Shyam-ji. Have India develop her own weapon platforms. All these wet dream fantasies of F-35 will come to a full stop.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

sum wrote:Saar, all our indigenous jets will have Amriki powerplants for very long foreseeable future.
Also, literally all our transport fleet, Naval recon fleet, helo fleet etc are getting more Amriki and getting standardized on it

So they have us by the b@lls for ages to come
Thank you for stating this. This is the most pressing concern and not the *perceived lack of independence* if & when the F-35 does come to India. Saurav Jha - as always - is spot on.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/123 ... 88224?s=20 ----> I don't care what arms imports have to be cancelled, but New Delhi must find the money to fund:

1. Next-generation battery manufacturing capacity.
2. At least one major commercial Semifab.
3. At least one fighter class 110-120 KN low-bypass turbofan.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Kartik wrote:General Bipin Rawat as CDS will have to ensure that commonality is now taken into account when drawing requirements that have significant overlap, such as in the case of the 57 MRCBF for the Navy, and the 114 MRCA for the IAF. That is of course assuming that the CDS will entertain the 57 MRCBF requirement going further.
With the submarine acquisition a more important priority, the 57 MRCBF will not get sanctioned anytime in the near future. Only expect anything on this front, once the plans for IAC-2 are set in stone and the funds for that are released first. And you are right ---> assuming that the CDS will entertain the 57 MRCBF requirement going further.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Roop wrote:I get the same impression! 8) (I'm not sure if you were serious or just kidding, but I'm serious). I find brar_w's posts on this aircraft (F15-EX) fascinating.

Someone please help me out here -- there is a US long-range radar-guided AAM which has even longer range than the AIM-120D. What is that missile called?
I am very serious Roop. That is the impression that I got from reading the article. Not sure where the money is going to come for both aircraft. Under a staggered procurement model, it will only hike up the cost of the F-15EX.

The Rafale will surely benefit, with the investments made from the first batch of 36 aircraft. The F-15EX, while fabulous, will be horrendously expensive under the model suggested by the CDS.

I believe the missile you are referring to is the AIM-260 JATM. Brar can confirm. The little tidbits I know is that the missile is under development, with first flight next year I believe. Range is classified.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_Sharma »

https://theprint.in/defence/tanks-fight ... ssion=true

Tanks, fighter aircraft will soon be on their way out like Sony Walkman: Army chief

Addressing a seminar, Army chief M.M. Naravane spoke about evolution of warcraft and emphasised the relevance of Chanakya’s Arthashastra.

SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP4 March, 2020

The Army is recalibrating and refining its plans for “dynamic responses” below the threshold of all-out war, like the Balakot air strikes, against Pakistan and China, General M.M. Naravane said Wednesday. 

Addressing a seminar organised by CLAWS, the Army’s think tank, Naravane spoke at length about the evolution of warcraft even as he emphasised the continued relevance of the ancient philosopher Chanakya’s famous treatise Arthashastra.

Among other things, he said the “military icons of the 20th century”, like tanks and fighter aircraft, were on their way out the same way the “Sony Walkman” was made redundant by newer technologies to hear music. The Army, he added, was looking at the possible induction of laser and directed-energy weapons.

Apart from strengthening its conventional prowess, Naravane said, the Army was also focusing on “dynamic responses — actions below the threshold of all-out war”. The Balakot air strikes, according to him, were an example of playing the “escalatory game” with skill. 

“We are refining our plans and capacities in this regard — both, along the western (Pakistan) and northern (China) borders. We are developing kinetic and non-kinetic responses to address the threat,” he added. 

He said the world was witnessing a new phenomenon — the availability of sufficient space for demonstration of military prowess and ascendancy that doesn’t erupt in an all-out conflict.

“Supposed acts of war not leading to war,” he added. “The Houthi rebels’ attack on Riyadh airport and oil facilities in Saudi Arabia and closer home, the Balakot air strike, saw these short, intense, escalatory cycles of military activity, in full media glare, where sophisticated information narratives played an equally important role.” 

For years, General Naravane said, it was believed that any crossing of the Line of Control by air would lead to a full-fledged war.

“Balakot demonstrated that if you play the escalatory game with skill, military ascendancy can be established in short cycles of conflict that do not necessarily lead to war,” he added.

The way forward — ‘Chanakya neeti’

The Army chief said “Chanakya neeti (policy)” provided new fodder for thought to effect change in contemporary thinking.

The Indian tradition of strategic thought, he added, was epitomised by works like the Arthashastra.

“Kautilya enunciated the sutra (manual) underlining the four forms of strategic means against enemies, in order of usage — ‘saam(conciliation)’, to advice and ask, ‘daam (gifts)’, to offer and buy, ‘dand (coercion)’, to punish, and ‘bhed (dissension)’, for exploiting secrets,” he said.

In the years since it was written, Naravane said, the Arthashastra had been variously adapted and repurposed.

“It has become a ‘how-to guide’ for ambitious enterprises. It could also become a touchstone for our foreign and strategic policymakers to devise a distinctively Indian view of international relations and statecraft,” he said.

Tanks and fighters going out’

Speaking about modern warcraft, the Army chief hinted at a dwindling relevance of 20th-century “icons… like the main battle tanks and fighters”, which he said were on the way out.

Naravane noted that the last large tank battle, one where large armoured formations of two armies manoeuvred against each other supported by artillery and air forces, took place in 1973, during the Arab-Israeli war on the Golan Heights.

“In the five-odd decades since — in Iraq, Lebanon, Georgia, Chechnya and Syria, armoured formations have either followed, supported the application of air power and artillery, or else their units and sub-units have been committed in smaller tactical groupings as part of infantry-armour assaults in urban terrain,” he said. 
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Cain Marko »

With all this talk of f15 carrying 22 mijjiles and what not, does anyone know if the Aim120D effectively out ranges the C5?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ranjan.rao »

To all the guys suggesting F15, one questtion, wouldnt that money would be better served by Super Sukhoi upgrade rather than completing the zoo with another animal. Perhaps partnering with US might be a better option for that.
It's basically a choice between creating our own eco system through systems on our experience with tejas, sukhoi and or just getting tagged along in the US.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages, like all things. But from a money perspective investing that money in desi maal like Su tejas (if we can call them desi) would be far better served to make them more desi or coming up with our own desi versions. We might have shortcomings during op swift retort, but it was i suppose not the end of the world..are we expecting ourselves to fight a war with 0 attrition?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by brar_w »

Cain Marko wrote:With all this talk of f15 carrying 22 mijjiles and what not, does anyone know if the Aim120D effectively out ranges the C5?
The AIM-120D has a larger NEZ and better HOBS capability compared to the AIM-120C-7. The range increase over the C5 and C7 is described by Raytheon as a low "double digit" percent. It is also designed to be more jam resistant. AIM-120D's focus was not primarily on increasing the range but focus on making the weapon more survivable/lethal and better networked and easier to upgrade and sustain over time. It also laid the foundation of a future multi-role variant if the USAF/USN wished to go down that path. It is still an MRAAM and the USAF has insisted that the MRAAM and LRAAM be two distinct weapon efforts (after toying, and testing, with the idea of a VFDR and dual pulse AMRAAM to cover the LRAAM in the past) though the AIM-120 replacement will likely cover the SRAAM through MRAAM space eliminating the need to replace the AIM-9 retaining two AIM types in production in the long term - a Long Range AIM, and a Short-Medium ranged high magazine AIM.
Last edited by brar_w on 05 Mar 2020 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by UlanBatori »

Great to see the comments from the Army Chief. Fundamentally, the UCAV in my opinion can be manufactured for 0.1x the cost of a (wo)manned fighter/bomber. And that is a compounded gain, because losing a few does not cause much ro-dho unlike Captured Pilot etc.
In this area India has a huge strategic advantage, but not for long because cheen are systematically and rapidly moving forward: AI software. India can make a natural transition due to extensive worldwide DOO experience. But China is taking the approach of going to kindergarten and introducing software/AI THINKING. Awesome strategy. How India uses the next 5 to 15 years may change a lot here. My thinking is this:
1. If you believe in "Net-Centric" etc, then you must agree that a Swarm of combat units can be coordinated to do much better than one Super-Herrow Transformer type.
2. So in the short-term, simply converting the old planes from the junkyards to fly with automatic pilots, is a game-changer. Big weapons load. So they will get shot down on the first or second mission. Garbage disposal problem solved, they will hopefully hit something as they fall. But they will distract, deplete and eventually destroy enemy defenses.
3. If you have a fast-paced development program with UCAVs, you can test to destruction and thus rapidly advance your capabilities.
4. Your engines need not have a very high MTBF: MAIN REQUIREMENT in the "kaveri" saga is this: a market for a mass-produced engine that has whatever MTBF it can deliver, but flown to destruction in large numbers with good data acquisition to fix the problems.
5. PLUS, the extensive development of AI-based tools for battle simulation and system fault prediction. And fixing.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by SRajesh »

UlanBatori wrote:Great to see the comments from the Army Chief. Fundamentally, the UCAV in my opinion can be manufactured
4. Your engines need not have a very high MTBF: MAIN REQUIREMENT in the "kaveri" saga is this: a market for a mass-produced engine that has whatever MTBF it can deliver, but flown to destruction in large numbers with good data acquisition to fix the problems.
5. PLUS, the extensive development of AI-based tools for battle simulation and system fault prediction. And fixing.
'Thatasthu' for that UBJi
Get about 50-75 UCAV's with Kaveri engine from the money saved from MMRCA tamasha.
Get to know more about the engine and if (JVC) available start Kaveri II
MWF/ORCA/AMCA starting side by side. :D
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