MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10964
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 05 Mar 2020 20:33

Rsatchi: You are now going to give the Americans a heartache. If what you say happens, how will F-15EX come to the IAF? :lol:

Rsatchi
BRFite
Posts: 1013
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rsatchi » 05 Mar 2020 20:45

Rakesh wrote:Rsatchi: You are now going to give the Americans a heartache. If what you say happens, how will F-15EX come to the IAF? :lol:

Bheell Rakeshji:
We should say in shoud Desi:
'Chini Kum
Phele Hum
Baadme Tum' :rotfl:

ranjan.rao
BRFite
Posts: 520
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 01:21

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ranjan.rao » 05 Mar 2020 21:27

UlanBatori wrote:Great to see the comments from the Army Chief. Fundamentally, the UCAV in my opinion can be manufactured for 0.1x the cost of a (wo)manned fighter/bomber. And that is a compounded gain, because losing a few does not cause much ro-dho unlike Captured Pilot etc.
In this area India has a huge strategic advantage, but not for long because cheen are systematically and rapidly moving forward: AI software. India can make a natural transition due to extensive worldwide DOO experience. But China is taking the approach of going to kindergarten and introducing software/AI THINKING. Awesome strategy. How India uses the next 5 to 15 years may change a lot here. My thinking is this:
1. If you believe in "Net-Centric" etc, then you must agree that a Swarm of combat units can be coordinated to do much better than one Super-Herrow Transformer type.
2. So in the short-term, simply converting the old planes from the junkyards to fly with automatic pilots, is a game-changer. Big weapons load. So they will get shot down on the first or second mission. Garbage disposal problem solved, they will hopefully hit something as they fall. But they will distract, deplete and eventually destroy enemy defenses.
3. If you have a fast-paced development program with UCAVs, you can test to destruction and thus rapidly advance your capabilities.
4. Your engines need not have a very high MTBF: MAIN REQUIREMENT in the "kaveri" saga is this: a market for a mass-produced engine that has whatever MTBF it can deliver, but flown to destruction in large numbers with good data acquisition to fix the problems.
5. PLUS, the extensive development of AI-based tools for battle simulation and system fault prediction. And fixing.

UBji dont discount the AI research work done by chinese..most of the desi work is implementation of US algos...chinese are making good strides in this field..their advanced maths guys are good...

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2020 23:01

Not 50. Think 50,000. Ppl in desh do not understand the sheer scale behind how bheshtern and Russian and now Chinese engines got as good as they are. The blood of 100s of 1000s of crashes and martyrs. This is why my Evil 6th Coujin has been trying to tell desh entities to use the demand for natural gas power-gen turbomachines to refine engine tech. Build millions. Tell villagers to put them behind iron sheet walls, but beyond that who cares if one blows itself up? Next step, boost the design power, put it on UCAVs and "test" over the Yellow Sea and maybe BeedEE border.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2020 23:08

I don't think "Kaveri-2" needs cancellation of this or that. View it first as a straight replacement for whatever engine is used now, say on Su-27. Maybe Su-30 though I doubt it. And of course EllCeeYay. Every nation has a right to build backup systems just in case...

Elsewhere, see what Erdogandoo is reduced to. He is running out of ammo for his NATO weapons. Americans first said, sure, we plan to keep those weapons working and well-stocked. Then... backpedalled.

Today's news: "US expresses serious concern about S-400 purchase". IOW, they have Erdogandoo by the Heart and Mind. Give up S400 - or forget ammo and spares. Tanks will creak to a halt inside Idlib. Artillery won't have shells. No replacement for Drones. Enjoy getting massacred.

OR... give up S-400. American supplies MAY arrive... or Russia will declare war and bomb those resupply container ships and planes. Plus, bomb the cra* out of the Turks in Idlib before the resupply can arrive.

Interesting dilemma but this is what India is looking at, too. Make no mistake. It's natural when you can't make your own spares and ammo.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4736
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Mar 2020 06:47

With all doo respect to drone war experts, trying to replace proper fighters with drones will be an utter failure against a halfway decent gbad. If faced with buk types, drones won't help.

The need for a Uber door buster like the f35 cannot be overstated. Not saying that large numbers are needed, but a couple of sqds will make a world of difference.

arvin
BRFite
Posts: 424
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby arvin » 06 Mar 2020 08:06

UlanBatori wrote:
Interesting dilemma but this is what India is looking at, too. Make no mistake. It's natural when you can't make your own spares and ammo.


They pulled the same trick on china civil jet.
Thats why I am advocating certifying Tejas mk2 on ej200 as a backup. Its would be expensive but thats the price for treating jet engines as a lab experiment rather than commercial enterprise.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Mar 2020 08:37

^^ Cainji:
Present-day Bredators/ Global Hawks seem to be long-endurance Assasination Machines: Drop one precision mijjile to Reach Out and Touch Someone. By definition, a long-endurance, high-aspect ratio subsonic thing is a sitting duck for SAMs, except that one can make them less expensive than a SAM, so the attacker holds advantage.

But all that becomes irrelevant when one considers the real potential. Tell me, exactly WHY does F-35 need a human pilot? IMO, it is an error at conceptual design, where they are forced to design around the human because the Services order them so. If it is truly Net-Centric, there is no reason why the "pilot" can't be sitting underground in Nebraska, directing the plane over Afghanistan, as they now do with the killer Bredators. Yeah, you need redundant streams of high-bandwidth video to give the "pilot" a 3D HD color experience, but she can fly it a heck of a lot better than the present human on board.

So there I can very easily debunk the claim that India needs F-35 in, say 5 years. If you have a working Flt. Simulator for the bird, you already can fly it in combat remotely. No need for Total Autonomy unless you think your comms will get jammed - in which case your Net-Centric argument goes out the bomb-hatch.
Take your pick. Net-Centric and Human-Piloted do not make sense together any more, not since planes learned to land themselves.
The human cannot process all the info to make the best decisions already, and you waste a lot of the design weight (and cost!!!) on transferring the info to graphical form that make sense for a 22-year-old fighter jock.

As for the door-buster, surely you are not thinking of sending F-35s in packs of four to hit deep-strike targets? One gets shot down, there goes one National Budget. What Paki target is worth that? The Flying CellPhone Tower only becomes relevant if it is commanding a fleet of UAVs. OK, then she is the slowest element, incapable of maneuvering over 7Gs while the UAvs can turn on a dime and zip through canyons.

Speaking of which: India's most challenging border environments for aircraft are the Himalayan canyons: Skardu valley, Gilgit. The cheen border. The last one is extreme altitude for low-speed maneuvers, and from what I know, even Su-27s (that could do Cobra Maneuvers) called it a case of "sh1tting bricks" to fly through Skardu Valley. UAVs can make short work of that, as seen in "4th of July Independence Din".

So I still say that the Case For F-35 is indefensible, against anyone who knows...

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4736
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Mar 2020 09:18

UlanBatori wrote:^^ Cainji:
Present-day Bredators/ Global Hawks seem to be long-endurance Assasination Machines: Drop one precision mijjile to Reach Out and Touch Someone. By definition, a long-endurance, high-aspect ratio subsonic thing is a sitting duck for SAMs, except that one can make them less expensive than a SAM, so the attacker holds advantage.

But all that becomes irrelevant when one considers the real potential. Tell me, exactly WHY does F-35 need a human pilot? IMO, it is an error at conceptual design, where they are forced to design around the human because the Services order them so. If it is truly Net-Centric, there is no reason why the "pilot" can't be sitting underground in Nebraska, directing the plane over Afghanistan, as they now do with the killer Bredators. Yeah, you need redundant streams of high-bandwidth video to give the "pilot" a 3D HD color experience, but she can fly it a heck of a lot better than the present human on board.

So there I can very easily debunk the claim that India needs F-35 in, say 5 years. If you have a working Flt. Simulator for the bird, you already can fly it in combat remotely. No need for Total Autonomy unless you think your comms will get jammed - in which case your Net-Centric argument goes out the bomb-hatch.
Take your pick. Net-Centric and Human-Piloted do not make sense together any more, not since planes learned to land themselves.
The human cannot process all the info to make the best decisions already, and you waste a lot of the design weight (and cost!!!) on transferring the info to graphical form that make sense for a 22-year-old fighter jock.

UBji, you are talking of systems that are far out into the future imvho.. For the near future, Unmanned subsonic drones are easy prey not only to Sams but even very basic fighters and trainers. A case in point bring the recent Iranian shootdown of the mighty global hawk not to mention their capture of the rq170 stealth drone. And that's Iran, a sanctioned regime unlike tsp, let alone cheen Afaik there is no ucav that can go supersonic, stay at beyond Sam altitude, and carry long ranged missiles, even subsonic ones.. IOWs they'll get picked off well before they come close to target.

Wrt drones as fighter replacements, I don't think the existing networks have enough bandwidth to provide realtime SA to videogamers sitting in Kansas especially in wvr. But I could be totally wrong. Perhaps mssrs brar and Karan can explain. All I know is that even mighty US is planning to procure billions worth of manned fighters for the near future. Perhaps in 2050 or so you'll see unmanned fighters proliferate as Mr musk was saying.
But until then some of the old war fighting parameters remain. If the idea is to get control of airspace, first, enemy communication nodes and gbad will have to be degraded. Sending in drones won't help because of the reasons mentioned earlier. They'll be shot down one way or another. F35 can do this very nicely..... Attack ground and air targets almost unchallenged by existing systems.

Also it's not like the f35's only usp is it's ncw capability. In fact this is not what I'm hankering for. It's the vlo aspect and radar plus optical sensors that make it so dangerous in the context of India.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10964
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 09:33

Rakesh wrote:F-15 offer could disrupt Indian fighter contest
https://stratpost.com/f-15-offer-could- ... r-contest/
03 March 2020

Twitter comments from the above article....the last three tweets are from HVT Sir.

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 11297?s=20 ---> Probably the most detailed breakdown of the Boeing F-15EX offer for the Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... 68032?s=20 ---> Not clear how F-15 fits into IAF's already heavy-heavy fighter mix.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12354 ... 71648?s=20 ----> Bigger aircraft are quite difficult to fit in. You can optimize a little, but not beyond a point. Double entry blast pens (all AF bases) get wasted. Only 1 HW ac fits in. Towing arm, weapon loaders & such equipment is huge. Difficult to position/relocate. Many issues with big.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12355 ... 17792?s=20 ---> They've offered all fighter platforms which are in development / production to IAF, including F-35, F-18E/F, F-21, F-15EX. No friendly nation has the stomach to deny their aircraft to India. All have lived up repeatedly in front of GoI.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12354 ... 85568?s=20 ---> Su-30 is an excellent aircraft. It's due for an upgrade & that should start soon. Experiences have made AF seek medium cat fighters for present/future inductions, since Su-30 is already occupying the larger cat.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4736
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Mar 2020 09:46

Rakesh wrote:[
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12355 ... 17792?s=20 ---> They've offered all fighter platforms which are in development / production to IAF, including F-35, F-18E/F, F-21, F-15EX. No friendly nation has the stomach to deny their aircraft to India. All have lived up repeatedly in front of GoI.

Aha. So f35 is not off the table.... :D

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10964
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 09:51

Cain Marko wrote:Aha. So f35 is not off the table.... :D

Only HVT Sir can confirm this, but I believe he is referring to a presentation made by LM to the Indian Navy back in 2010 (I believe that is the date, but could be wrong) on the F-35B.

This was way before the S-400 purchase. Definitely off the table now, until a mutually workable solution comes on board and is acceptable to both the US and India.

LM (and the US) is not about to jeopardize the F-35, just to sell jets to India. That will not happen.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Mar 2020 10:03

CMji, Can't you get the sensors on other platforms? I would think F-22 has all the A-A capabilities plus radar-evasion. Any advanced sensors would not be only on the 35s. Also, fast UCAVs cannot be that far off.
Let's be realistic about schedules. If GOI announced F-35 purchase tomorrow, I don't see one being ready to take off on a real war mission before March 6, 2030. Do you believe that by then a computer cannot be stuck inside an old airframe to do Mach 2 ingress, weapon release and egress as well as an F-35 will do? My fear is that with the budget blown on something like F-35, IAF will be flying MiG-21s as the main interceptor on the Kashmir front when Air Marshal Abhinandan's son starts flying for IAF.
As for the F15, there is way more than enough simulator experience on that, to convert to an autonomous craft. The rest of the alphabet soup is all minor derivatives, I don't see why India would buy any as a big game-changer against our two primary adversaries.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10964
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 10:04

https://twitter.com/ungliwallah/status/ ... 05312?s=20 ---> Thank you for your reply. So when things are stabilizing now, we should just upgrade Su-30MKIs so that they are good for another 20 years and ignore the F-15 offer.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 61568?s=20 --> Yes. Some funds crunch needs to ease out. It's on the cards. F-15 offer will be solicited through an RFP when & if, newer imports are considered by GoI. At this point, suo moto offers from any foreign OEMs don't have any value.

In case anyone wants to know that the term above (underlined) means, this is what Google Chacha says ---> Suo moto is a Latin term meaning "on its own motion".

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10964
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 10:36

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 44033?s=20 ---> Su-30 was a great choice for that time. IAF has always been very wary of importing combat aircraft from US. Perhaps, it's better that we were always independent from US influence.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 45120?s=20 ---> F-15 is a good aircraft. I prefer indigenous efforts.

HVT Sir ki Jai Ho! 8)

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby vishvak » 06 Mar 2020 12:51

the chance to the skip the 4th generation birds(No matter how many + in the suffix) and buy the more capable 5th generation ones

Like how Indian computer hardware industry went around manufacturing Integrated Circuit s and now keep buying more capable ICs. AMCA will still have engines from USA and then the cycle will continue because every govt has its own plans, or no plans, or ever anything except skipping part which there are examples galore.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2614
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 06 Mar 2020 13:06

Rakesh wrote:HVT Sir ki Jai Ho! 8)


Truly! His sharp insights are to the point.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5488
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 07 Mar 2020 02:08

Rakesh wrote:F-15 offer could disrupt Indian fighter contest
https://stratpost.com/f-15-offer-could- ... r-contest/
03 March 2020

After reading the above article, one gets the impression that the IAF will order both the Rafale and the F-15.


Really? Reading a Saurabh Joshi article that is down right generic and spells no details whatsoever you feel that the IAF wants the F-15EX? He’s basically just flying a kite and nothing else.

Nothing so far indicates that the F-15EX has a leg up in any way whatsoever. We don’t know how the MRCA 2.0 will be shaped and when the RFP will be released. We don’t know what the criteria for selection to the last round will be. So how on earth can one say what will be selected?

All we know is that the IAF has 36 Rafale on order and has spent a fortune on establishing bases, training and all the ground infrastructure to support those jets. We also assume it can handle more if required going by past experience.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Mar 2020 04:12

Just an observation. The entire Bharat-Rakshak MIL Forum Discussion and the Indian Aerospace R&D discussion appear to be focused mainly on what to get this XMas from Unkil, Aunty, Coujins etc. I never thought I would yearn for the days of Sanctions and Entities Lists.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19956
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 07 Mar 2020 05:51

UlanBatori wrote:^^Karan, glad to hear that things work so well for you. Sorry but being defensive doesn't convey much hope: it's not like I was born yesterday and don't know anyone in India outside BRF.


You made the claim nothing works in India and all is woe, because Indian software is crap, and posted a huge rant about IT returns. My point was simpler, I use tons of Indian software everyday, and it works. I haven't seen any of my much vaunted enterprise software work much better, as unfair as the comparison may be. They are usually far less user friendly & buggy.

The reality in Indian defence, as in all other areas, leaves huge room for improvement, with far too slow or negative progress. Complacency will be fatal.


So who said we should be complacent?

A tough analysis needs to be done, 1+year after the Balakot strikes and aftermath. Balakot was executed beautifully, but... remember that it was a long-planned canned-mission that was pulled out for revenge. Nevertheless, credit where credit is due.

OTOH, the PAF strike was (or should have been) no surprise. That they did not get stopped before lobbing bombs into a Brigade HQ, is pretty alarming (We were all too loyal to ask exactly what damage occurred: I do not believe that only trees got hit any more than I believe the Pakis' claim about Balakot. Also that the first-line fighters (Su-30s etc) basically broke off and ran for it, once they saw missiles in the air, and did not hit the intruders hard. And to top it all was the tragic SNAFU of air defense downing the helicopter. SURELY that should ring huge alarm bells about Net-Centric Warfare? That part certainly flunked the test.


UB when you don't know the details, read through the details released. If you don't believe only "trees got hit" on our side, that's on you, not the GOI. They don't make up facts. 11 PGMs were released by the PAF. Only 1 set were a narrow miss. And the PAF had imagery only on 1 other PGM. Any chap can see they were bounced and most of their released PGMs went haywire, to the point they could have set off a full blown battle.

The fact is successive Govts have underfunded the IAF to point it has to rotate aircraft from afar as versus HAS on nearby tactical AFB, which project got cleared last year. That accounted for the limited number up in the air. Second, the GOI was testing the waters which is why there was no retaliation- if they had allowed the IAF full leeway the IAF would have gone in with a wrecking ball & hit the PAF hard.

The GOI decided against again creating WW3 and called it a day, having "signalled their resolve" and getting some 200-300 tangos knocked out at Balakot was sufficient for the time being. Anyhow the LoC is a mini-war zone with casualties on the Pak side going up several times versus what we usually have.

Next, our Su-30's didn't break and run for it, that may be your interpretation based on what you think they should have done, but it certainly was *not* what happened. One of the Su-30s had an avionics malfunction and was recalled, as 2 more Su-30s were on the way, another pair of MiG-29s as well, in the meantime, a *single* Su-30, that is Avenger 1 made repeated close runs towards the PAF Vipers to get a close in weapons lock with his missile armament, given their height advantage which a standard BVR missile would not have worked against. He went in close enough that the PAF broke and went back deeper into POK establishing a BARCAP which Abhinandan then took a wrecking ball to, jamming or no jamming, he wanted his kill and got it.

Next, the so called air defense downing the chopper. That was because of non adherence to SOPs by the CO and the fact the pilot did not have his IFF on. It was a human error. And given the Patriots and their friendly fire escapades during multiple conflicts, its hardly surprising these sort of things occur at a wartime.

The fact is that India cannot afford even now to put up a decent number of modern fighters in that most critical of sectors to intercept and massacre such an intrusion. That PAF raid should have ended with all their runways cratered in a swarm counter-attack, forcing their planes to crash-land/ bail out. Instead all that they got was a panicky defense that barely managed to avoid getting hit by AAMs.


That is plain wrong, and most probably based on your desire to come up with some sort of understanding of what occurred. Fact is that as we speak, the IAF has reinforced that, and parallel sectors. Next, the IAF doesn't go to war because of jingos on this forum or elsewhere. They go to war if the GOI mandates it, and given the nuclear overhang, Balakot itself was a test-case. The so-called panicky defense you allude to was actually a well-choreographed attempt run by the IAF playbook, which was to keep CAPs as tripwires and then surge ORP and additional readiness platforms in, which is what the IAF did. The system worked. Despite almost everything working for the PAF, they were not able to maintain staying power for an accurate PGM strike, they were taken by surprise by the MiG ORP, lost a Viper, retreated further when more IAF assets surged into the area, and were not able to get propaganda knockdowns either.

The fact remains post Feb 27th, PAF has retreated farther within Pakistan - they know what they tried pulling off, and what didn't work. Unlike what you may think, the IAF has multiple levels of back-up. They had aircraft on CAP, they had aircraft on ORP, and then they had more aircraft ready to surge. They aren't stupid enough either to keep their aircraft up in the air 24/7, running down their technical life and munitions.


Had the Pakis actually crossed inside, or had a second strike wave close behind, I think they would have been able to do serious damage and escape unharmed. It's their own Pakiness plus the MiG pilot's bravery that salvaged something. So many years after 1965 this was really alarming to see.


If they had done so, it mean't war. which is what they too wished to avoid. You may be alarmed by a mere clash. The PAF were more alarmed by the fact that a prepared ambush didn't allow them to down our guys and a MiG-21 slashed into their BARCAP.

Bravery apart, Abhinandan was not meant to go within Pakistan. He wanted his kill, jamming whatever may have exacerbated his issue, and that caused a whole lot of complexity for the IAF battle plan. Net, if he had not got downed, then PAF would have had nothing to show for its efforts.

Back to the Fin Systems: I also have experience with SBI Chicago. Took them 2+ months (I kid you not) to set up two simple online accounts. Excuse after excuse, the *&^&* websites were totally non-functional, instructions were totally wrong, and the staff 100% clueless. I happen to have a close relative who retired as VP of SBI and I keep goading her with stories like Sehwag's "Lunch ke baad aana", but that time I refrained because it was so pathetic. Current example: Exchange rate has zoomed from 70:1 to 73:1 in the past week. Private banks are taking full advantage urging customers to send$$ to desh.

SBI? Their site says they offer a wonderful 63:1, unchanged from 2 weeks ago! ******** have not even bothered to update their website. THAT says it all about attitudes in Indian govt. As for Air India, 3 months after I asked for a simple email address change they have not managed to do it. And I should believe that in the Defense sector alone, things are sooo much better? Sorry, that is not realistic.

The counter that US consumer software systems and "Customer Service" (Ha!!) don't work, does not work. It's like the old story of Nehru and JFK riding a train and Nehru pointing to a guy "going" in the field:
But that is the Indian Ambassador to the USA!

All their Customer Service and software update processes are probably outsourced to Indian IT companies.


Your SBI Chicago experience is like I said what you face, with whatever they are running for NRIs. We run the standard software for their primary customers locally, and so far, it has been ok-ok. Nothing great. But nothing so clunky either. My 2-3 foreign MNC accounts are more streamlined and less powerful (trade-off).

I am sure these are not pleasant for hard-working ppl in GOI enterprises to hear, but they will all come to bite if a real war has to be fought. I know this is a low blow, but remember that the engine non-success still grates on all of us: no avoiding the fact that India, 73 years after Independence cannot produce a decent jet engine. The reasons are above: biss-boor work ethic, no culture of preparing thoroughly, no discipline to test systems seriously. And these guys/gals are going to develop a "Net-Centric warfare system" (a parroted term, BTW) that can adapt and repair itself on the fly in a shooting war against a serious enemy like PRC?


I am sorry but *your* attitude here speaks for itself and it isnt positive. Just because you had a bad banking experience you are extending that to "biss-boor work ethic" for all Indians. This is beyond silliness. I mean I have worked with your American ilk. Less said the better about some of the chaps, their patronizing spiel and in some cases the lack of desire to put in the hours. They would tend to talk a good game though. So does that mean everything America makes is junk.

Furthermore, you clearly dont know about the IACCS and the effort that went into it, and what it is, and how it functions. Why should I waste my time trying to explain it further, when you compare it to some random financial website to all this, and are clearly disinterested in it? And jet engines? Of all things. The way you talk, one would think every country had some 4 or 5 in their garage, seriously. India has had bigger fish to fry than one jet engine and that remains the truth. Its not as much a national aim for any politician to fund to get reelected as versus free gas cylinders or whatever. The Chinese have spent 10x our amount and are unable to get a single one reliable enough. Well they are trying, we haven't found the funds for our program.

And an even bigger LOL at "no culture of preparing thoroughly or testing systems seriously", that may be true for some cases but most definitely not all. The IAF has spent literally a decade testing its BVR methods against the best in the world. Which is why on that day, the CAPs could hold their ground when they had to.

But my argument here was about the suitability of buying the F-35. I think it would be a HORRIBLE mistake. It is unconscionable to waste that kind of money on a handful of pampered systems, while the day-to-day job of guarding the border and frontline cities, is shouldered by Adbhinandan & Co in 1960s-vintage MiG-21s or Sopwith Camels. And panicky kids operating SAMS, that clearly did not get even basic messages on IFF. What good are terms like "net-centric" given such realities? Maybe they should first learn "phone-centric"? Or "Morse Code Centric"?


Oh spare us this bit about "panicky kids" etc. I'd sure like to see any of the civvie crowd on this forum in combat and make split second decisions about go-no/go with weapon systems, and then live with the consequences thereof. Its easy for us to talk.

First world soldiers also shot down aircraft after aircraft using their Patriots, and so much for their IFF or what not then.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2003/0 ... 051224638/

They too had to face their issues. Of course, 3rd world India cannot deal with "pampered systems" that are too sophisticated for its primitive souls, where have I heard that again?!
Oh wait. Everytime India decided it needed something cutting edge to give it the edge, there was always someone willing to sell us 2 generations behind "that's all you can manage guyz". Sure..

I as a tax-payer am perfectly happy to bear the costs for a F-35 etc provided it translates to an actual operational advantage.

The rationale for the F-35 in the US DoD, does not apply in the Indian DoD at all. The F-35 started as "JSF". Commonality of parts, etc etc between USAF, USN and USMC. India has no IMC that operates fighters and does not need that. The IN has a total of 2? functional carriers, that are probably too critical and vulnerable to be deployed if there is a real war. Now that Pak has ship to ship cruise missiles I think the carriers are mostly liabilities except maybe to do cyclone evacuations. Just not enough missile defence to make them viable platforms for blue-ocean deployment. People need to watch movies on Midway and Falklands to develop some credible simulations of the survival chances of the Indian carriers. Having 3 F-35s on board will change nothing.


The fact that JSF started as JSF is irrelevant to the Indian context. What is relevant is that as a single platform, it does have significant ability against mono-static radars upto L/S/C/X band and is able to lob JASSMs and SDBs at them from BVR ranges which make it a perfect SEAD platform. And as an A2A platform its reduced RCS makes it perfect for taking on larger numbers of high power X band AESA equipped J series fighters. The rest is irrelevant.

As it stands I think only the USAF F-35 seems to be seriously operational, though it is the other two that were supposed to be game-changers. The cost is incredibly high, so that India would afford far too few. The investment would deny the funds needed to actually kick ass in developing indigenous systems.


The JSF per unit as it stands is likely going to cost as much as many of the other options in the 114 MMRCA/unit the IAF wants to import. We are talking of the USAF version alone. Its not like the F-15EX, or the F/A-18 E/Fs or EF Typhoons will come dirt cheap.

Instead, investment should go into cheap hardware plus AI, to develop large fleets that can operate as swarms. Also AI for testing and fault prediction. Stop the crashes. Improve availability.


Which is already being done. The current GOI has been within its limited budget boosting serviceability numbers.

None of that cheap hardware can effectively take on high-end AD systems in contested airspace.

And finally, look at the title and length of this thread. Is there any seriousness about developing an MRCA? Wasn't the twin-engine HF-24 the first "MRCA"? At lesat that was a brave effort to do indigenous development, now given up in the shopping spree environment with the US.

I think an MRCA makes sense **ONLY*** if it is 100% indigenous CERTAINLY including engines, AND is mass-produced to fill up a fleet of 200+ inside 5years, not the glacial pace of LCA "production" with imported, de-rated, overpriced engines.
Sorry again to post what I see as the truth.


The IAF has already committed to multiple squadrons of the MWF which is India's homegrown MRCA beyond the LCA. It also has the AMCA program.
Sorry to post what I see as the truth, but I have no time for rants, they are a waste of our time. If you have something specific, let me know. But all this stuff about comparing some random SBI website to some mil-system and claiming equivalence is literally a real-life version of that meme, of take me to your manager by some angsty white lady in the retail store who gets upset at the slightest of things and then decides the whole company, the building, the staff, everything sucks and goes kaboom.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Mar 2020 08:11

Karanji, thanks for confirming everything I posted in my initial post with your defensiveness and convoluted excuses.

To summarize:
So the Pakis WERE allowed to lob several bombs over the border towards a Brigade HQ. And from how I read your inside news, they "nearly started a battle" which I take to mean that bombs landed dangerously close to other units. Thanks, that's what I thought too.
So there were NOT enough front-line fighters over critical Srinagar area or the LOC when they came over, though they were expected. Maybe because the budget is blown by the Generals on junkets to shop for 1971-designed foreign equipment with fancy names like "Net-Centric"?
So not ALL fighters turned tail when the Pakis were first on the draw and put missiles in the air. ONE fighter bravely went TOWARDS the Pakis and considered turning on their weapon radar at them! Were ANY Indian missiles fired at them other than the one by Abhinandan, please?

So the helicopter was shot down because "SOP was not followed". BUT in a Modern Net-Centric Combat Environment with F-35s, all SOPs will be followed, so hey, this is not a problem. Communications will work at 22nd century levels although basic IFF (Identification - Friend or Foe - I don't know many buzzwords unlike the Insiders, sorry) did not work, even so close to Srinagar, at crunch time. Those who operated the Air Defense were not "panicky kids" but thorough professionals - who just did not follow SOP. But let's not worry about that, it will NEVER happen again.

Even Lt. Gen. Kaul had a book full of excuses for the 1962 events which happened despite his perfect leadership. After every war SNAFU, the excuse is "that gap has been closed now onlee so don't come in with our Attitude and all these ignorant criticisms!" Its called "Preparing for The Last War".

Back to my experiences. By the way I too am an Indian Taxpayer as I mentioned clearly, so let's settle that first, please keep your snootiness to yourself. And I've been around longer than you have, so you do not bring any superior experience to the table. And yes you are right, there is a special portal through which I have to go from outside India. Operated by one of India's Top Software Companies. Every year they keep it exciting. In a good year it MIGHT come up before tax deadlines outside India, so I can download the TDS statements, but it's always exciting. Clearly run by India's best. When it does not come up I get my relatives to log in from India, download the stuff and email it to me. And yes, despite their stunts I have managed to e-file every year since they enabled that, because my relatives gave me computers on which they never update JAVA.

********************
IndusInd Bank, that brags India's Best Customer Service, started sending customers' Account Statements to other customers. Like mine went to Bangkok Thailand until I caught that - and demanded that they fix it. OK, I am SURE that even their software could not have done that only to me, so I assumed that there would be swift action.
SIX MONTHS LATER, they were still doing it.
Then.. to top that, one day I got a TDS statement by mail. It belonged to some Malloo customer from Kottayam. That time when there was no fast action, I threatened to post it on their FaceBook Site, pointed out that their entire Board had been copied on my emails and should understand that they were criminally liable for releasing customer info to others - and that got swift action: their CEO changed his email address, and the COO blamed his own incompetence on the only person in their Board that was trying to do her job.
Just another example of Indian corporate/administrative ethics. Yeah, I know that there are crooks and idiots elsewhere, I am not going to defend them, so this means India should imitate that too?

And in Defence, magically, things are vastly better? The point is, please consider that I may know a heck of a lot about exactly how things "work" in Indian Defence too, but will not post that. Maybe because I am too loyal. So yes, you win prizes for rah-rah Nationalist Patriotism, congratulations, but I sure hope the people who actually do testing on defence software are a bit more skeptical.

And oh! yes, my relative also told me that she had been using SBI's software sooooo smooothly, and "I don't know what do for NRIs" etc. Standard Excuse Culture, which is what I say is the CLEAR evidence of the problem. As Jack Nicholson said:
You guys cannot handle the truth!
You are used to people rah-rah-ing about this or that idealized "success", and don't understand that success requires persistence and fixing problems before they become disasters. In war there are only winners and targets. No second chance.

You basically shoot the messenger, it's in your "work culture". Re-read your shrill responses above to try and understand that. I DO hope there are better professionals reading this, who can extrapolate and see the underlying problems before they lose the next war and destroy India.

My basic point remains: The F-35 is the Joint Strike Fighter, designed for commonality of parts and communications across the USAF, USN, USMC. India has no "MC" that operates fighter planes, so this is not a real criterion. It was never designed to outfight or out-maneuver an F-22, or maybe not an F-16, so it would be interesting to see how it performs through the canyons of POK. I don't know or care whether it has better payload, range or speed (I strongly doubt that!) than a 1971 F-15. You still need different versions to land on ship decks. The VSTOL version is probably not operational and not on offer.

The main feature I see is this "net-centric" stuff that has seriously mixed reviews. Without a LOT of redundancy, anything "net"- will be down within minutes of a war with China for sure, and Pak probably. And redundancy is not a habit of a nation that still has to put MiG-21s as the frontline interceptors. Oh, I know, India had PLENTY of backup when the PAF came over after Pulwama, it's just that right there at crunch time, the fancy expensive fighters turned tail, leaving Abhinandan's MiG-21 to face the best of the PAF. BUT. no lessons there!

IOW, the 4 F-35s that India **MAY** get operational inside the next 20 years, MIGHT survive long enough to run one or two sorties before parts shortages and net failure ground them. I hope there are enough MiG-21s and Abhinandans to put their lives on the line protecting the hangars with these $160M? Queens. BTW, what is the chance that the F-35 - or its missiles - will work once across the LOC?

Did you pause to wonder why Paki AMRAAMS or AAMSITAS went kaput once across the LOC? The US isn't smart enough to do that to planes and missiles sold to INDIA, right? Because India is a Strategic Partner? Do they look real keen to bail out Turdoganji in his bissing contest inside Syria?

BTW, I posted because Rakesh encouraged me to post my view of the truth. Q.E.D. on why I usually don't post at the Mil Forum. Back to Happy Rah-RahRah dom. 'Bye.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4736
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Mar 2020 09:11

UlanBatori wrote:CMji, Can't you get the sensors on other platforms? I would think F-22 has all the A-A capabilities plus radar-evasion. Any advanced sensors would not be only on the 35s. Also, fast UCAVs cannot be that far off.
Let's be realistic about schedules. If GOI announced F-35 purchase tomorrow, I don't see one being ready to take off on a real war mission before March 6, 2030. Do you believe that by then a computer cannot be stuck inside an old airframe to do Mach 2 ingress, weapon release and egress as well as an F-35 will do? My fear is that with the budget blown on something like F-35, IAF will be flying MiG-21s as the main interceptor on the Kashmir front when Air Marshal Abhinandan's son starts flying for IAF.
As for the F15, there is way more than enough simulator experience on that, to convert to an autonomous craft. The rest of the alphabet soup is all minor derivatives, I don't see why India would buy any as a big game-changer against our two primary adversaries.

What you are talking about Sirji is supposedly on the way via 6th gen fighters - possibly see a TD or maybe first proto by 2030. AI based fully automated flight - supersonic, super maneuverable etc. After that, you'll need another 15 years to bring it to service. Then you'll need the infrastructure to use such unmanned vehicles wherever you wish - think of all the satellite and comm infra that the US has. And this timeline is for the US with its incredible expertise + MIC + $$$s.

For india, it is doubtful if anything will appear on the horizon before 2045-50. Until then -in the short term - say 10 years, I don't see why India couldn't get an FMS type deal going for quick delivery of a couple of dozen jets - top dollar rates? Afterall, the bird was "offered in 2010"?

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4751
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Mar 2020 18:17

F 15 EX can carry 14.5 tons compared to su 30 mki 's only 8 tons.

F 15EX has airframe life of 20,000 hrs compared to MKI's 6000 hrs.

F 15EX has more reliable engines with less maintenance and more life than MKI Engines.

F 15EX has Aesa radar but MKI can only have IRBIS PESA.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3449
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Vips » 07 Mar 2020 21:18

Useless rant deleted, second warning given

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2007
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 07 Mar 2020 22:30

Vips wrote: as it has a AAM which is only good for 2/3rd of its brochure range (70 kms vs the 100 km claimed) and if it was equipped with AESA radar....


Brochuritis is also the reason why I really wonder how effective the S-400 system is? How many aircraft/incoming missiles has it actually shot down in combat conditions? And as for the US playing up the S-400 threat, there is a long standing US tradition for the last 60 years of massively playing up any Soviet/Russian equipment threat to justify ever increasing defence spending.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4751
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Mar 2020 22:36

^ don't write OFF topic posts ldev, this is mrca thread

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2007
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 07 Mar 2020 22:49

Manish_Sharma wrote:^ don't write OFF topic posts ldev, this is mrca thread


I think the larger issue is what is the IAF philosophy on air defence? Soviet and Russian air defences were always biased in favor of SAMs. Western air defences are heavy on interception by fighter aircraft which require fighters and radar coverage, both ground based as well as AWACs/AEWs.

And that has IMO a direct bearing on the choice of aircraft or the mix of aircraft that the IAF should go in for as part of the MRCA acquisition. If the S-400 performance is good on brochures but never tested under actual combat conditions, then IMO the IAF should consider a mix of F35s and F-15s, the stealth aircraft to act as the door breaker and the F-15 to deliver it's massive payload. If the S-400 is too late to cancel then at this stage the only option is a 4th gen aircraft. I just wonder if the IAF has thought through the long term impact of future acquisitions from the West based on it's choice of the S400, how it really fits into the philosophy of air defence that the IAF has developed and is developing and that is the relevance of my post.

As brar_w has pointed out, at some point of time in the late 2020s the F-35 is likely to be cleared for sale to Middle Eastern air forces. India should consider that factor also.

But what is clear IMO is that neither Sukhoi or Mig have the funding or technical wherewithal to stay in the race.

Consider that Turkey which has taken delivery of the S400 has not used it in the current skirmish against Syria and is in fact asking the US to provide Patriot batteries to defend southern Turkey.
Last edited by ldev on 07 Mar 2020 23:05, edited 2 times in total.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4736
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Mar 2020 23:03

Manish_Sharma wrote:F 15 EX can carry 14.5 tons compared to su 30 mki 's only 8 tons.
:eek:
F 15EX has airframe life of 20,000 hrs compared to MKI's 6000 hrs.
:shock:
F 15EX has more reliable engines with less maintenance and more life than MKI Engines.
:)
F 15EX has Aesa radar but MKI can only have IRBIS PESA
:) .

Very impressive. Especially the tonnage and life numbers. Please don't forget that the mki was offered in the late 90s though.

Oldies on the forum might remember how wonderful it felt when the land of the f15 sanctioned India those days.

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2007
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 07 Mar 2020 23:07

Cain Marko wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:F 15 EX can carry 14.5 tons compared to su 30 mki 's only 8 tons.
:eek:
F 15EX has airframe life of 20,000 hrs compared to MKI's 6000 hrs.
:shock:
F 15EX has more reliable engines with less maintenance and more life than MKI Engines.
:)
F 15EX has Aesa radar but MKI can only have IRBIS PESA
:) .

Very impressive. Especially the tonnage and life numbers. Please don't forget that the mki was offered in the late 90s though.

Oldies on the forum might remember how wonderful it felt when the land of the f15 sanctioned India those days.


Countries do not have permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4736
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Mar 2020 23:20

ldev wrote:Countries do not have permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.

Very true. Hence I've been advocating the f35! Point was that at the time India received mki no such eagle version was existent, and what was available was not offered.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4377
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nam » 07 Mar 2020 23:58

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12355 ... 17792?s=20 ---> They've offered all fighter platforms which are in development / production to IAF, including F-35, F-18E/F, F-21, F-15EX. No friendly nation has the stomach to deny their aircraft to India. All have lived up repeatedly in front of GoI.


If F35 is available, we should drop this nonsense about Rafale. Get 2 sqd of F35 and fund TEDBF/ORCA as Su30 replacement.

F35 will bring complete over match against Pak & China. Not just giving us phenomenal capability, it will provide breathing space until AMCA is available. I am not even required to mention the panic that will set in Pak. They will be dreaming about F35 over their "crown jewels".

MWF, ORCA(Su30 replacement), AMCA, 2 sqd F35, 2sqd Rafale. Our future manned force structure.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4377
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby nam » 08 Mar 2020 00:02

Regarding which countries we should buy from; major contract should ONLY be with Security council members. US, Russia, France(or UK if they have something). Joint collaboration with Russia, France & Israel.

We set aside some money to "buy" friendship from these countries. Even if we are making everything local, we need these countries. So some bribe is required.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Mar 2020 01:18

Cain Marko wrote:[
What you are talking about Sirji is supposedly on the way via 6th gen fighters - possibly see a TD or maybe first proto by 2030. AI based fully automated flight - supersonic, super maneuverable etc. After that, you'll need another 15 years to bring it to service. Then you'll need the infrastructure to use such unmanned vehicles wherever you wish - think of all the satellite and comm infra that the US has. And this timeline is for the US with its incredible expertise + MIC + $$$s. For india, it is doubtful if anything will appear on the horizon before 2045-50. Until then -in the short term - say 10 years, I don't see why India couldn't get an FMS type deal going for quick delivery of a couple of dozen jets - top dollar rates? Afterall, the bird was "offered in 2010"?


I don't agree: this situation has to change in the next 5 years or I fear for India. Cheen is not going to buy F-35, are they? Look at it from their pov: how will they counter the US F-22/F-35 threats? By converting J-17 thundaars into Huawei drones, perhaps? Dozens of them for each F-35. They would **LOVE** to test that against the 3 F-35s that India budget will be able to afford.

Back around 1999/2000, people working with my Evil 6th coujin (he was not involved!) demonstrated to DARPA the first fully autonomous HELICOPTER flight I think they used a Yamaha cropduster - **NOT** a simulator or toy but something full-sized. You can look it up, there are probably several open-li papers on that. Made NASA etc very mad because it was done on a shoestring relative to NASA. The ppl who actually did the work were mostly desis, probably available for DeeArrDeeOh etc to bring in. So there is noooo excuse to be sitting on thumbs wailing that it will be 2045 before a fully autonomous fixed wing plane will be available in the Amazon Catalog for Indian Jarnails to go shop. IMO autonomous helicopter flight is a heck of a lot more difficult than fixed-wing EXCEPT that missions may go much further from the control station (but not so far as to delay signals! Against this, helicopter axis-couplings and nonlinear behavior, and the close-terrain-following flight in iffy atmospheric conditions, all make for superhuman pilot workload and orientation problems.

I read on the helicopter thread, Indranilji's :twisted: about the step-child treatment given to the ACH vs. shopping spree for Apaches. Figures.

If India doesn't already have a few teams working on putting the knowledge that is in a $200 Marrriage Video Drone into a few MiG-21s/ HF-24s, it is a criminal delay. Bottom line is this: if you can program a Flight Simulator to be realistic, what is so tough about programming an autonomous fixed-wing vehicle? The human pilot is the slow, stupid part of the system.

Here is my Budget for the Ulan Bator F-35 Endowment:
Give us the money you were going to waste on **ONE** F-35: $160M (cheap for the price!)

Put it in a baink at 6.75%. Gives you $11M a year for the first 5 b4 you are ready to spend serious money. Give $1M/yr to each of 4 university teams, for 5 years. At the end of 5 years, form two fly-off teams and start assembling the flight hardware. Spend $10M on that.
The 4 teams would be 2 competing on full intelligent software-based flight-sims, with actuators, and 2 competing teams on weapon-system integration along with IFF and Fire/don't fire decisions, Air-to-air Games and Strike Mission profiles.

Inside 10 years you should have 2 Indianplatforms flying off against each other - with modified versions of both to go into mass production by Year 11.

At that point, start spending out the $160M on the production line, and procuring the first 5.
Enough of this Phoren-Shopping Virus, that has brought down even BRF.
I remember back in 1999, BRF was all about shiny Indian Missiles.
Today it's reduced to a Janes' All The Worlds Gizmos + Soldier of Fortune Shopping Catalog Admiration Society.

Time to get the focus back again. Think: Ahead of 6th Gen by 2030!

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4736
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Mar 2020 02:57

UlanBatori wrote:I don't agree: this situation has to change in the next 5 years or I fear for India. Cheen is not going to buy F-35, are they? Look at it from their pov: how will they counter the US F-22/F-35 threats? By converting J-17 thundaars into Huawei drones, perhaps? Dozens of them for each F-35. They would **LOVE** to test that against the 3 F-35s that India budget will be able to afford.


Cheen is on cue Saar to build a third 5gen manned fighter. Such is their desperation to get a true stealth gen 5 fighter. Noone knows if it will be an f31 or j19 copy. Do that are hardly dropping the idea of manned fighters. Nobody is.

Back around 1999/2000, people working with my Evil 6th coujin (he was not involved!) demonstrated to DARPA the first fully autonomous HELICOPTER flight I think they used a Yamaha cropduster - **NOT** a simulator or toy but something full-sized. You can look it up, there are probably several open-li papers on that. Made NASA etc very mad because it was done on a shoestring relative to NASA. The ppl who actually did the work were mostly desis, probably available for DeeArrDeeOh etc to bring in. So there is noooo excuse to be sitting on thumbs wailing that it will be 2045 before a fully autonomous fixed wing plane will be available in the Amazon Catalog for Indian Jarnails to go shop. IMO autonomous helicopter flight is a heck of a lot more difficult than fixed-wing EXCEPT that missions may go much further from the control station (but not so far as to delay signals! Against this, helicopter axis-couplings and nonlinear behavior, and the close-terrain-following flight in iffy atmospheric conditions, all make for superhuman pilot workload and orientation problems.

I read on the helicopter thread, Indranilji's :twisted: about the step-child treatment given to the ACH vs. shopping spree for Apaches. Figures.
If India doesn't already have a few teams working on putting the knowledge that is in a $200 Marrriage Video Drone into a few MiG-21s/ HF-24s, it is a criminal delay. Bottom line is this: if you can program a Flight Simulator to be realistic, what is so tough about programming an autonomous fixed-wing vehicle? The human pilot is the slow, stupid part of the system.

Iirc India and Israel have been working already on a uav cheetah for the Indian Navy since 2008. It's still not flown afaik suggesting that such things are not so easy in combat conditions. As such this does not obviate the need for manned 5 gen fighters.

Here is my Budget for the Ulan Bator F-35 Endowment:
Give us the money you were going to waste on **ONE** F-35: $160M (cheap for the price!)

Put it in a baink at 6.75%. Gives you $11M a year for the first 5 b4 you are ready to spend serious money. Give $1M/yr to each of 4 university teams, for 5 years. At the end of 5 years, form two fly-off teams and start assembling the flight hardware. Spend $10M on that.
The 4 teams would be 2 competing on full intelligent software-based flight-sims, with actuators, and 2 competing teams on weapon-system integration along with IFF and Fire/don't fire decisions, Air-to-air Games and Strike Mission profiles.

Inside 10 years you should have 2 Indianplatforms flying off against each other - with modified versions of both to go into mass production by Year 11.

At that point, start spending out the $160M on the production line, and procuring the first 5.
Enough of this Phoren-Shopping Virus, that has brought down even BRF.
I remember back in 1999, BRF was all about shiny Indian Missiles.
Today it's reduced to a Janes' All The Worlds Gizmos + Soldier of Fortune Shopping Catalog Admiration Society.

Time to get the focus back again. Think: Ahead of 6th Gen by 2030!

All good UBji, you can have 1 f35 worth rupiyas for your trickery. We still get remaining 23 f35s for beating chipak thugs though.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Mar 2020 05:14

I would need GST exumshun on the principal and interest onlee, pls. (discovered this new way of delaying stuff for months, used by desh babucracy. Even at EyeEyeTea!!)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10964
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 06:42

nam wrote:If F-35 is available, we should drop this nonsense about Rafale. Get 2 sqd of F35 and fund TEDBF/ORCA as Su-30 replacement.

F35 will bring complete over match against Pak & China. Not just giving us phenomenal capability, it will provide breathing space until AMCA is available. I am not even required to mention the panic that will set in Pak. They will be dreaming about F35 over their "crown jewels".

MWF, ORCA(Su30 replacement), AMCA, 2 sqd F35, 2sqd Rafale. Our future manned force structure.

F-35 is not going to happen for now. As I mentioned to Cain-ji ---> Only HVT Sir can confirm this, but I believe he is referring to a presentation made by LM to the Indian Navy back in 2010 (I believe that is the date, but could be wrong) on the F-35B. This was way before the S-400 purchase. Definitely off the table now, until a mutually workable solution comes on board and is acceptable to both the US and India. LM (and the US) is not about to jeopardize the F-35, just to sell jets to India. That will not happen. Perhaps in a decade, but not now.

Despite all the brochuritis on the S-400, it gave the US enough takleef to remove Turkey from the F-35 program. The only platform that cannot be sold with the S-400 is the F-35. And that is a decision by GOTUS. It is their plane and they can do what they want with it. All the contenders (incl the Amreeki birds) in the MMRCA contest, are willing to sell their wares to operate alongside the S-400. That includes the F-21, F-18 and F-15EX. What will likely happen is MMRCA may die a slow death and additional Rafale units (2 - 4 at the most) may be ordered. There is no money for 114 birds.

TEDBF/ORCA are medium weight fighters. They will replace Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 in the future. The oldest Su-30MKI is only 18 years old. In IAF parlance, that is young. The Mirage 2000 fleet will hit 40 years in 2025 and the MiG-29 fleet will hit 40 years soon after that. They are much older airframes. Much more wear and tear on them. They are the ones that need replacing. By the time they retire in 2032, they will be 47 years old! The older Jaguar units also need replacing. The oldest Jags hit 40 years in 2019 I believe. I doubt these particular airframes are flying, but I could be wrong.

The Rambha is no dud. She is an exceptional fighter, and with the Super Sukhoi upgrade, will be more than a match for anything the PAF/PLAAF can throw at it. And with the Derby and Astra combo, she will be lethal. And the IAF just ordered more R-27s and R-77s post Balakot. The most important factor with the Rambha is that she will be flown by an IAF pilot. Enough Said. The JF-17, to quote Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd), is a joke. Their only serious fighter they have in the fleet is the 18 Block 50/52 F-16C/Ds and their upgraded F-16A/Bs. And the Mirage 2000I, the MiG-29UPG and the Su-30MKI are enough to tackle them.

Many on the forum are reading too much into one air battle (Feb 27) and even in that, the IAF certainly came out on top. All this talk about about the IAF not being able to engage the PAF fighters is because of the ROEs and the fact the PAF strike force turned back right after firing their AMRAAMs. And secondly, not a single AIM-120C5 AMRAAM hit a Su-30MKI. Not one single AMRAAM. And the PAF fired around 4 - 5 of them at minimum at the IAF interceptors. Those jammers - aboard the Rambha - did an exceptional job and so did the pilots who manned Avenger 1 and Avenger 2 on Feb 27.

In fact, just to rub salt in the wound, it just took a HAL built MiG-21 Bison with a Russian built R-73 CCM to shoot down a twin seater F-16D built by Lockheed Martin and operated by the Pakistan Air Force. And the tech on the Bison was backed up a well trained and aggressive pilot who certainly knew what he was doing - Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, VrC. So the guys bashing Russian maal on this thread, please be real. Know the facts please and then post. I know many are eager to see Amreeki birds in IAF colours, but state the facts :lol:

Just because the IAF is likely not entertaining a Russian bird (Su-35 or MiG-35) in the MMRCA contest, that is not indicative that the MiG-29UPG and the Su-30MKI are dismal aircraft. There are a number of interviews of IAF pilots who will tell you the exact opposite. And there has not been a single exercise, in which the Rambha participated (Cope India, Indradhanush, Garuda, etc) and she came up short. Never underestimate the Rambha or the IAF pilot who flies her. That will be your last flight 8)

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9721
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 08 Mar 2020 07:02

Well said Rakesh! The F-35 is not offered to India atm and there is no indication of either Lockheed or GOTUS seeking clearance for the MOD to the SIMAF or a high level G2G sharing of information. The relationship is not there yet and the current GOTUS posture is that they are in a competition with Russia and as such they will treat it like the cold war and be weary of offering the top performing programs to those who operate Russian systems that can potentially compromise US strategic advantage. That can change in the future, but for now this is the official policy and there is broad bi-partisan support in the US to maintain it (Trump makes little difference to this as this is a Congressional matter). So this discussion is rather pointless unless major geo-political changes take place which don't really look likely.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Mar 2020 07:19

Last post on this, let me fire a BVR mijjile, turn on my 'jammies and scoot since ROE will declare this OT :mrgreen: :

Iirc India and Israel have been working already on a uav cheetah for the Indian Navy since 2008. It's still not flown afaik suggesting that such things are not so easy in combat conditions. As such this does not obviate the need for manned 5 gen fighters.


Says it all. This is what I referred to in my first post (which of course inflamed some eminent folks. For any constructive suggestion, Indians have the standard put-down:

V r having that onlee too, yaar!!!

Difference is, you don't get anything to work. You don't stay the course and get projects completed. Your ppl are not serious. Having pictures of Baboon signing MOUs and Mantris cutting ribbons does not win wars.

If B'luru was within PAF striking range and getting shelled every second din, maybe "they" would have flown it in combat 10 years ago. We need George Fernandes II to give free tickets to a bunch of ppl 1-way to Siachen Baboon Resort as a Motivational Exercise. How *&^% difficult is to get a fixed-wing UAV to ***FLY**? If they got some school aeromodeling kids on the team they could have FLOWN it at least. All the bells and whistles can be added.

The story I posted from the 1990s was where a tiny university student/research enginer team got an autonomous system put into a Yamaha Cropduster helicopter and **FLEW** it on a DARPA timetable. TOTAL funding for that can't have been more than $2M all included. Their computers were at most desktop workstations until they programmed the chips to stick into the thing. They had a total of one rickety pickup truck as Infrastructure to take the copter 40 miles south to fly it in a field. The students had to find time between full-time course load to do this.
BTW, they have continued since then and now have a whole fleet of different types of UAVs incl some fixed-wing I am sure. I haven't seen them fire missiles, but well.. the small outfit they spawned does handle Classified projects. It has spawned other outfits as well.

None of which happen as long as Indian ophishials are allowed to waste taxpayer funds on brochuritis and Catalog Warfare. I remember being at a primary Indian defence/aero facility back circa 2005: Cafeteria was full of Israelis and others. Sure, a NASA cafeteria also looks like a United Nations, but the difference is that those in the NASA cafeteria are working for the USA. The ones in the Indian cafeteria are selling their nation's maal to Indians at inflated rates. I am tired of seeing Indians celebrating that.

This may be an area where some fine-tuning is needed in procurement, when it comes to un-mard System. They should allow procurement of the system as soon as it can take off and land, with all bells and whistles added in joint IAF/IA- HAL/DRDO/NAL/Israelis/Americans/Polish/Belgians/French/Tahitians operations.

Bottom line: Israelis in 1960s got Israeli planes FLYING and in combat in faaaar less time than Indians in 2020 can get a blessed fixed-wing UAV flying? Maybe there's a lesson here? Bring back the HF-24!! Only Indian MRCA ever to take off. With difficulty I know, but it did **FLY*

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19956
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 08 Mar 2020 08:02

UlanBatori wrote:Karanji, thanks for confirming everything I posted in my initial post with your defensiveness and convoluted excuses.


No, I didnt confirm anything bar the fact that every now and then, despite valuable posts otherwise, you get carried away, post a lot of verbose rubbish and get very defensive when called out on it.

So the Pakis WERE allowed to lob several bombs over the border towards a Brigade HQ. And from how I read your inside news, they "nearly started a battle" which I take to mean that bombs landed dangerously close to other units. Thanks, that's what I thought too.


There is no "allowed" that happened yesterday. Good golly, the commentary in your post would give anyone a headache.

The PAF has weapons that can be fired 10's of kilometers away. They can sit within Pakistan and start firing at India. Be aware of this. That mean's that any time, either they or us, can safely snipe at BVR ranges at targets close to the border. The only thing that we can do is put up a chain of CIWS and wreck our economy in the process, or harden our infrastructure and be ok with the risk. Which is what our soldiers do. Do you understand this? This is what it takes to be a soldier in India. This parity in technology, in capability exists between all three states, India, China and Pakistan. Many weapons btw, which were happily given by the US to Pakistan and then repurposed.

So there were NOT enough front-line fighters over critical Srinagar area or the LOC when they came over, though they were expected. Maybe because the budget is blown by the Generals on junkets to shop for 1971-designed foreign equipment with fancy names like "Net-Centric"?


No, because aircraft have a certain TTL and so do munitions, and hence they are not flown around the clock. The indigenously designed 2010+ era IACCS allows the IAF to surge assets into a theater they think requires it. The IAF budget as it was, was spent on training folks, and buying the kind of stuff that allowed Balakot to happen.

Might also want to use your brains and think about who decides the ROE for such affairs which allowed the Pakistanis to fire first and why it was still in place post the strike the previous night.

Is it some IAF afsar or some politician sitting in Delhi? If the latter, might want to think about why he doesn't want all-out-war either, that is he wanted a strike at Balakot to send a message across to Pak, and doesn't want a full blown war. Not yet anyhow, when he has a 100 other things to focus on.

So not ALL fighters turned tail when the Pakis were first on the draw and put missiles in the air. ONE fighter bravely went TOWARDS the Pakis and considered turning on their weapon radar at them! Were ANY Indian missiles fired at them other than the one by Abhinandan, please?


Your obnoxiousness re: the IAF, in particular the underlined portion, gets you a well deserved warning, but you might want to learn a bit more about A2A combat as well. There are many resources out there. When outnumbered, it would be stupid of any fighter to waste its A2A armament on low Pk shots. They would routinely go hot and go cold to try and get firing solutions, deny an opponent the same and also ensure they conserve their armament. That you think this is some game of who fired missiles, yaay, courage is beyond silly. That Abhinandan fired a missile and got something for his headlong dash across the border is a good thing. Even so, he was not supposed to have gone across the border, exposing himself and his second to such risk.

So the helicopter was shot down because "SOP was not followed". BUT in a Modern Net-Centric Combat Envionment with F-35s, all SOPs will be followed, so hey, this is not a problem. Communications will work at 22nd century levels although basic IFF (Identification - Friend or Foe - I don't know many buzzwords unlike the Insiders, sorry) did not work, even so close to Srinagar, at crunch time. Those who operated the Air Defense were not "panicky kids" but thorough professionals - who just did not follow SOP. But let's not worry about that, it will NEVER happen again.


Nobody can predict that it won't happen again. As your brave American afsars discovered, it can happen repeatedly, but unfortunately, they didn't have you to stop the entire Gulf War because blue-on-blue happened. That's the funny difference between us-all-knowledgeable civilians and the oh-so-incompetent military. Despite deaths, despite whatever happens around them, they still go ahead and fight.

Even if everything was in place, the random error can still occur. What does it matter btw if its a F35 or any other plane. The IFF hassle can affect any platform, anywhere.

Even Lt. Gen. Kaul had a book full of excuses for the 1962 events which happened despite his perfect leadership. After every war SNAFU, the excuse is "that gap has been closed now onlee so don't come in with our Attitude and all these ignorant criticisms!" Its called "Preparing for The Last War".


Preparing for the last war is what also gets you the capability to fight the next one. I understand you like to throw around all these cool sounding aphorisms, but gap analysis is what is generated by actual conflict.
Preparing for a future conflict without fixing the previous one is stupid. Most professional militaries, IAF and PAF included, are not stupid, not at an aggregate level anyhow. They are highly capable and contain many individuals who are keen to make a difference and do whatever possible to give their respective air arms an advantage.

The IAF learnt from its 1999 strike challenges and stocked up on SPICE, Litening etc. The PAF stocked up on fixing its BVR vulnerability. Both AFs used those capabilities during the brief clash. Now, from this clash, both AFs will again "learn" and fix their gaps accordingly and do something else. Not everything will be made public either.

What was broken in the Indian set up was procurement. Modi has fixed it to a degree. More needs to be done.

Back to my experiences. By the way I too am an Indian Taxpayer as I mentioned clearly, so let's settle that first, please keep your snootiness to yourself. And I've been around longer than you have, so you do not bring any superior experience to the table.


Considering the number of ad-hominems you throw around on a routine basis, irony seems to be another word you need to look up.
You are an Indian taxpayer. Good. Are you an Indian citizen? The latter get to decide how their countrys budget is spent by electing representatives who decide it. That was the point.

Do you use the software I mentioned on a regular basis? No? Then your claim that your one issue with taxes etc and this and that is equally countered by a thousand different experiences by different people. If you want to make pointed criticisms, please do. Don't go off on rants about websites and banks and then extend that to all sorts of unrelated stuff.

Here is something for you to read up.
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/afjuy ... cture.html

And yes you are right, there is a special portal through which I have to go from outside India. Operated by one of India's Top Software Companies. Every year they keep it exciting. In a good year it MIGHT come up before tax deadlines outside India, so I can download the TDS statements, but it's always exciting. Clearly run by India's best. When it does not come up I get my relatives to log in from India, download the stuff and email it to me. And yes, despite their stunts I have managed to e-file every year since they enabled that, because my relatives gave me computers on which they never update JAVA.


That's your problem to be honest because in all my years I haven't seen anyone complain so much about this one issue. Perhaps you need to hire somebody who can fix the issue rather than wasting your time on it.

Long rant on banks this, bank that deleted..


You basically shoot the messenger, it's in your "work culture". Re-read your shrill responses above to try and understand that. I DO hope there are better professionals reading this, who can extrapolate and see the underlying problems before they lose the next war and destroy India.


My responses weren't shrill, they were to the point and pointing out the near complete obsessiveness you are displaying about this one issue to the point it seems like OCD and then extrapolating from it to all sorts of unrelated stuff.

You ranted about how some bank etc caused you issues. I merely pointed out that there are many samples out there who don't have the problems you are facing. All that means is your sample size is off. Second, it also means that something is wrong with your process and you need to figure out a better way to do it, as versus busting a capillary about it, and then deciding to blow up the country as a result.

Or would you prefer perhaps I should post a 10 page rant about my ebay experience and then extrapolate that to how the US is going down, capitalism vs socialism and what not.

As regards better professionals, I doubt the better professionals in the IAF have the time or energy to waste reading rubbish about filing taxes on an internet forum. They are pulling sorties, testing stuff, dealing with far more critical tasks than such navel-gazing.

My basic point remains: The F-35 is the Joint Strike Fighter, designed for commonality of parts and communications across the USAF, USN, USMC. India has no "MC" that operates fighter planes, so this is not a real criterion. It was never designed to outfight or out-maneuver an F-22, or maybe not an F-16, so it would be interesting to see how it performs through the canyons of POK. I don't know or care whether it has better payload, range or speed (I strongly doubt that!) than a 1971 F-15. You still need different versions to land on ship decks. The VSTOL version is probably not operational and not on offer.


Your point is no point at at all. We were discussing getting the AF version of the F-35 whose reduced signature allows it to perform A2A missions and SEAD missions in contested environments. You are again bringing up irrelevant comparisons.

The main feature I see is this "net-centric" stuff that has seriously mixed reviews. Without a LOT of redundancy, anything "net"- will be down within minutes of a war with China for sure, and Pak probably. And redundancy is not a habit of a nation that still has to put MiG-21s as the frontline interceptors. Oh, I know, India had PLENTY of backup when the PAF came over after Pulwama, it's just that right there at crunch time, the fancy expensive fighters turned tail, leaving Abhinandan's MiG-21 to face the best of the PAF. BUT. no lessons there!


This sort of insulting, ignorant venom directed at the IAF, claiming Abhinandan's peers turned tail, without any evidence whatsoever, just so that you can score internet brownie points is what gets you your warning and temporary ban. Congrats.

IOW, the 4 F-35s that India **MAY** get operational inside the next 20 years, MIGHT survive long enough to run one or two sorties before parts shortages and net failure ground them. I hope there are enough MiG-21s and Abhinandans to put their lives on the line protecting the hangars with these $160M? Queens. BTW, what is the chance that the F-35 - or its missiles - will work once across the LOC?


I suggest you take your week off and spend more time on fixing your taxes and continuing your fight with your bank, and let the IAF decide what it needs for its fleet.

Did you pause to wonder why Paki AMRAAMS or AAMSITAS went kaput once across the LOC? The US isn't smart enough to do that to planes and missiles sold to INDIA, right? Because India is a Strategic Partner? Do they look real keen to bail out Turdoganji in his bissing contest inside Syria?


Yes, they went "kaput" because the PAF fired several of them on inertial only mode to keep the Sukhois at a distance, standard tactics to force attacking fighters on the defensive. They also fired a couple much closer which the Sukhois outmaneuvered, given their anti-BVR training. No conspiracy theory required. Thanks much.

BTW, I posted because Rakesh encouraged me to post my view of the truth. Q.E.D. on why I usually don't post at the Mil Forum. Back to Happy Rah-RahRah dom. 'Bye.


I couldn't care less what you posted. I have even ignored your usual snide jibes at me. However, what I will not stand for are your jibes at Abhinandan's peers based on your ignorance and inability to admit that you don't know about the topic and are shooting from the hip.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19956
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 08 Mar 2020 08:10

UlanBatori wrote:Difference is, you don't get anything to work. You don't stay the course and get projects completed. Your ppl are not serious. Having pictures of Baboon signing MOUs and Mantris cutting ribbons does not win wars. *


Thank you so much for that amazing insight. Might impress you to know that despite the well known flaws with the Indian procurement system, and the fact that "we people" unlike "you people" don't stay the course and get anything completed, we have completed a fair bit of stuff which was already used on Feb 27th and more will be available thereafter. As far as I am aware, we didn't drop rocks at Balakot. What went there was stuff carefully procured for the purpose and used for it. And what addressed "your people's" AMRAAM was also a desi project which we stuck around and completed and inducted post Balakot. Stuff for you to think about.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: arunsrinivasan and 29 guests